Rock & Roll HOF Nominees - who deserves to get in?

[Dinsdale]

Saw this list last week, and had this same discussion with friends.

To me, the criteria should be how influential were they, how popular were they, and longevity. With that in mind:

ELO -- No brainer, can't believe they're not already in.

PJ -- nails every criteria.

Kraftwerk -- not a huge fan, but they fucking invented a genre that's relatively intact to this day.

Yes -- also not a huge fan, but their resume' speaks for itself.

I guess the last spot would go to Joan Baez, since she was influential to what grew into hard/acid rock.


Comments on also-rans:

Tupac -- the R'n'R HoF let the genie out of the bottle with rap, so be it. And that being the case, last year's induction of NWA was a no-brainer, since they changed absolutely everything about the genre. But some guy doing what Dr. Dre tells him to and having a couple of big albums doesn't do it for me.

Chic -- really?

The Cars -- borderline. But to echo Scott, not much diversity in their style.

Chaka -- great musician, but would need to tell me a lot more somethings that are good.

MC5 -- a couple of almost-hits 50 years ago? Nah.

Janet -- great performer, was wildly popular, but her actual high-end productivity was a pretty short window.

Journey -- Let's be clear, and differentiate... they're two bands, which were starkly different -- the early version, which was Santana members telling Carlos to "fuck off, we're forming a prog band," and (post Greg Rolie) the whiny pop bitches that catered to 12yo girls. They're mostly remembered as the latter, and the reign of the former was pretty short.

Bad Brains -- to quote KCScott, "most people never heard of." Apply that to a sports HoF, and it sounds just as silly.

Zombies -- they had one big album 50 years ago, for fuck's sake.

Depeche Mode -- extremely influential (Yuuuuuge), extremely popular. Another one that fails the longevity test.

Jane's -- I'm a huge fan. And they fall miles hort in the longevity department (and the second go-around sucked).

J. Geils -- were around forever, and nobody ever heard of them. Journied that shit into the adolescent market and became popular. Big on name (having Faye Dunaway as a groupie didn't hurt), short on product.

Steppenwolf -- two big hits.

That's my grossly overpriced $0.02.

And yes, I dinged bands for lack of longevity, but endorsed (on the acceptance of Rap in the HoF) NWA, which is hypocritical -but their influence is massive and undeniable (and the launching pad for the richest musician in human history).

[The Big Pickle]

First of all, ELO was AWESOME!

[Dinsdale]

Just my opinion, but the whole idea of a R&R Hall of Fame is ridiculous.

And the fact that they have hiphop and rap "artists" nominated and elected just reinforces my point above.

I don't ever want to be Crotchety Old Guy.

As to your first sentence... I agree. Music is quite subjective, much more so than sports. We can all say, to a man, that Peyton Manning is an automatic HoFer, and no one is going to argue. Scott, along with many others, thinks that Yes is akin to nails on a chalkboard. Others think they're the best band ever. Even with sports, with the borderline guys... just to throw a name out there, maybe Andre Reed... if someone doesn't think that he's HoF worthy, they still don't sit back and say "that guy sucked!"

As to your second sentence... is it really that much different? Heavily R&B based, downbeats on 2&4, verse/chorus, etc. Is Rage Against The Machine "rock and roll"? They rely on spoken lyrics (and I could list a whole bunch of other hard rock bands that do the same).

I don't hate the rap genre because of what it is or represents -- I generally dislike it because there's a severe dearth of talent and originality. If someone brings a high level of talent to the table (rare), then I'm all ears.

[Dinsdale]

Damn Dins, did you really have to be all subjective and rational on this?

If we are going on the 5 with the biggest following / sales the list would probably be

Pearl Jam
Yes
ELO
Journey
Tupac

Without looking anything up, I'd guess you were right in the ballpark (although Janet Jackson sold a shit-ton).

Which is why I included in my criteria the influence and longevity. Weeds out the Tupacs and Zombies of the world.

[Screw_Michigan]

I hold the opinion that Tupac popularity is a direct result of Tupac getting mowed down and becoming the poster child for wannabe gangstas round the globe

Otherwise he's 50cent

Not the biggest rap fan but saying Tupac = 50 Cent just proves you're fucking clueless. Par for the course for you, Scott.

[Dinsdale]

I hold the opinion that Tupac popularity is a direct result of Tupac getting mowed down and becoming the poster child for wannabe gangstas round the globe

Otherwise he's 50cent

I'm not a hip-hop-historian, but I'm pretty sure he sold several million albums before he got ventilated. He was big time. But as I mentioned before, it's similar to what Barry Gordy did with Motown --find some talent, groom them into your image, write their music, promote them, and make them out to be THE GREATEST EVER!!!! While I'm not a huge fan, that is the genius of Dr. Dre -- a household name who recently released his 3rd album in 26 years (ponder that one).

[Dinsdale]

Not the biggest rap fan but saying Tupac = 50 Cent just proves you're fucking clueless.

Hmmm.....

it's similar to what Barry Gordy did with Motown --find some talent, groom them into your image, write their music, promote them, and make them out to be THE GREATEST EVER!!!! While I'm not a huge fan, that is the genius of Dr. Dre.

Clueless, you say?

[The Big Pickle]

So Fricken Awesome!

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

I don't care about the R&R HoF, just wanted to say Andre Reed sucked!

[Dinsdale]

I hold the opinion that Tupac popularity is a direct result of Tupac getting mowed down and becoming the poster child for wannabe gangstas round the globe

Otherwise he's 50cent

Also on this note, and again, I'm no hip-hop historian, but I believe 50 Cent took more bullets than Tupac -- he just managed to live.

Same producer, same result.

[Dinsdale]

I don't care about the R&R HoF, just wanted to say Andre Reed sucked!

Touche'

I've always thought the R&R HoF sucked. They inducted fucking Madonna, for fuck's sake.

And RACK Johnny Rotten for telling the HoF to fuck off.

[smackaholic]

If you think YES does not belong, you have no bidness calling yourself a rock fan. As spray said, YUUUUUUGE musical talent and they pretty much are the poster child for 70s prog rock. The only question is the question I used to have to ask about Rush for years and years, how the fukk are they not in yet?

ELO-yes. There is a lot more to them than the coupla few singles that got mega airplay for a few months.

Pearl Jam- definitely

Steppenwolf - maybe

Journey- Yes, despite the love ballad faggotry they eventually descended into.

The rest- WGARA

[R-Jack]

Not the biggest rap fan but saying Tupac = 50 Cent just proves you're fucking clueless.

Hmmm.....

it's similar to what Barry Gordy did with Motown --find some talent, groom them into your image, write their music, promote them, and make them out to be THE GREATEST EVER!!!! While I'm not a huge fan, that is the genius of Dr. Dre.

Clueless, you say?

Any chance you can link me up with all the work Dre did with 2pac? As far as I can tell they only worked together on a couple of tracks, as Dre was on the outs with Death Row when All Eyes on Me was being put together. Most of Pac's stuff beforehand was put together with people that worked with digital underground.

Also, 2pac's career arc was as long if not longer than NWAs. I'm not going to question their induction (a no brainer if you're including hip hop), but to say 2pac didn't have the longevity is downright silly.

[Dinsdale]

Also, 2pac's career arc was as long if not longer than NWAs. I'm not going to question their induction (a no brainer if you're including hip hop), but to say 2pac didn't have the longevity is downright silly.

If you reread my post, I pointed out my own hypocrisy when it came to the longevity of NWA vs Tupac.

I also mention that I'm no hip hop historian, so I'll defer to you, Good Sir.

[Screw_Michigan]

Nirvana was the best grunge band

I laffed.

[Dinsdale]

Nirvana was the best grunge band

I laffed.

Possibly the worst drummer I've ever heard, combined with a guy who knew 2 chords on guitar, and a bass player who was asleep half the time.

Hell, there's some old, superdiehard U&Lers who don't consider them "grunge." Only the "Deep 6" count in their world (Soundgarden, Malfunkshun, Skin Yard, UMen, and the Melvins). I disagree, both in the overall sound, and the incredible amount of "inbreeding" those bands went through over the next several years. But many thought "grunge" was "over" once Soundgarden left Sub Pop for a major label, and Green River became Mother Love Bone (which became Pearl Jam) and Mudhoney... fuck, it's hard to keep track of them all.

[Diego in Seattle]

Never even heard of elo

Dude, were you even alive when the Challenger blew up?

[Smackie Chan]

1. J. Geils Band
2. MC5
3. Yes
4. Steppenwolf
5. Pick 'em - ELO/Cars/Pearl Jam

[Dinsdale]

Never even heard of elo

Dude, were you even alive when the Challenger blew up?

Or ever seen a sporting event, for that matter? About half the teams out there use an ELO song in some sort of capacity/intro/whatever, or at least they have in the past.

[Bucmonkey]

un fucking readable (this thread)

[R-Jack]

No HOF if your music is only recognizeable because it is the sound track to goofy comedies. Fuck you may as well put the Benny Hill theme song in if thats the criteria to make it

That is only how YOU recognize them. You wouldn't have a hall of fame if acts were disqualified because of you being a dumbfuck.

[Dinsdale]

Fire On High is one of the best R&R instrumentals ever recorded... dumbass.

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

Listened to a few more of their other songs on Spotify, seems like its the music used in Farrelly Brothers and Sandler movies.

No HOF if your music is only recognizeable because it is the sound track to goofy comedies.

Let me get this straight. You'd never heard of ELO prior to clicking this thread, yet you're claiming they're only recognizable because their music seems like it would be in some shitty comedy even though it actually isn't?

My god, you are one intergalactically stupid individual.

[Diego in Seattle]

Fire On High is one of the best R&R instrumentals ever recorded... dumbass.

And was used as the opening theme for CBS Sports Saturday for many years. Of course since schmick is a youngster he wouldn't know that. Or a lot of other things.

[smackaholic]

What mgo said.

shmick is absolutely clueless.

stop in to chat on a friday sometime. I sure smackie can dig up an elo tune or 6 that don't suck.

[Diego in Seattle]

Listened to a few more of their other songs on Spotify, seems like its the music used in Farrelly Brothers and Sandler movies.

No HOF if your music is only recognizeable because it is the sound track to goofy comedies.

Let me get this straight. You'd never heard of ELO prior to clicking this thread, yet you're claiming they're only recognizable because their music seems like it would be in some shitty comedy even though it actually isn't?

My god, you are one intergalactically stupid individual.

No, I had never heard of them. I went on Spotify and looked them up, listened to parts of 3 of their songs and recognized those songs from movies

Did you know that Paul McCartney was in a band before Wings?

[Jay in Phoenix]

ELO - They sold a shit ton of records, Jeff Lynne is still recording and though he sounds more like the Traveling Wilburys these days, in. Great art rock.

Tupac Shakur - Absolutely. He was and is a legend in the genre and is still widely respected.

Chic - Nah, pass.

The Cars - Derivative and repetitive, but they, like ELO sold a bunch of records. Not yet, but someday.

Pearl Jam - Sure, why not.

Joan Baez - Yes

Chaka Khan - Yes.

MC5 - Maybe, but not now.

Janet Jackson - Yes.

Kraftwerk - They set a standard for electronic beats that still is influential.

Yes - Like Papa Willie said, try playing their music. Hard as hell. Yes to yes.

Journey - Based on sales, yes. Based on music, no.

Bad Brains - Why? Who knows their music beside hardcore fans?

The Zombies - Yes, but not this time.

Depeche Mode - Not a chance.

Jane’s Addiction - Again, someday maybe. Not now.

The J. Geils Band - Underrated band, but not in this group.

Steppenwolf - On the bubble.

Joe Tex - One hit wonder, no.


My 5 for this year:

Yes
ELO
Pearl Jam
Chaka Khan
Tupac Shakur

[R-Jack]

shmick is absolutely clueless.

It really is amazing. We all have shit takes from time to time. It happenes. For the life of me, I can recall a time or post where shmick did not come off like a ignorant dumbfuck. The lack of self awareness is staggering. Humanity weeps every time he hits submit. Not because of what he said as much as the fact he looked it over and thought what he was saying was actually worth saying. At some point a drooling mongloid knows to tuck his chin in before he falls down yet another flight of stairs, but this is not your average drooling mongloid. Fucking Lennie would doubt his rabbit petting skills before shmick would realize that he sucks.

[LTS TRN 2]

The R&R Hall Of Fame is a joke, of course, but it keeps a few folks employed in the city of the current and defending ALCS champions. Looking over the list and comments, I agree right down the line with Willers. Exactly right, especially Yes.

[Screw_Michigan]

Go fuck yourself, B-juice.

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

Wait.......what?

[Smackie Chan]

The J. Geils Band...Never sold out.

Actually, they did with their album Freeze Frame, and ironically, if they get into the HoF, it will likely be in large part due to that album's popularity. Never mind that is was their shittiest and least represented what made them great. It sold.

Pearl Jam. Never understood a fucking thing Eddie Vedder ever said.

This might help...

[Smackie Chan]

Huey Lewis, Eddie Money and Hootie all endorse your selection

No surprise you'd make such asinine comparisons since what you know about The J. Geils Band is limited to their worst album.

[Wolfman]

My 2¢ on this.
J. Geil's Band-- working man's party band, Peter Wolf a great front man, even with their commercial money maker
the Cars-- unique sound contributed huge to the music of their time. Maybe I just loved the Candy-O Vargas art.
Journey-- so they were a pop band, Perry's top level vocals and Schoen's guitar work are A++
Joe Tex-- Show Me--always in James Brown's shadow, but a worthy entry

[Smackie Chan]

No surprise you'd make such asinine comparisons since what you know about The J. Geils Band is limited to their worst album.

Really?

Yes. Really.

[Mikey]

Must be a generational thing.

I'm not sure what criteria they look for for the HOF, but obviously great R&R bands have little appeal to the Lift and Steam generation. I think Scrote's mostly interested in

[Smackie Chan]

There are a shitload of reasons why the R&R HoF is a joke. At the heart of it is its glaring contradiction of the supposed criteria used for eligibility and induction, and its definition of "rock & roll." A more accurate name for the place would be "Pop Music Hall of Fame." I'm sure I'm not alone in believing that rap and hip-hop are not rock & roll, and that bands like Yes and ELP, who aren't members, are closer to R&R than NWA and Run DMC, who are.

We shall consider factors such as an artist's musical influence on other artists, length and depth of career and the body of work, innovation and superiority in style and technique, but musical excellence shall be the essential qualification of induction.

Not sure what criteria are used to determine "musical excellence," and I freely confess that I don't know, or care to know, a helluva lot about rap & hip-hop. But from what I have heard, there isn't much vocal or instrumental excellence that my admittedly untrained ear has been able to discern. I have listened to a lot of punk rock, however, and while I like, for example, The Ramones, and believe they deserve to be members, I wouldn't say that vocal or instrumental prowess are abundantly evident in their music. So what, then, constitutes musical excellence?

The Hall has always had a bias against progressive rock. I'm not a huge fan of it, but certainly would say that far more "musical excellence" emanated from Steve Howe, Keith Emerson, and Carl Palmer than from Joey Ramone, Johnny Ramone, or Ice Cube.

Failure to induct The J. Geils Band is an egregious omission. They were outstanding interpreters of other people's music (First I Look at the Purse, (Ain't Nothin' But A) Houseparty, Serves You Right to Suffer, Dead Presidents, Lookin' for a Love, to name a few of their covers), as well as writing and performing many great original songs. I emphasize performing because, while their studio recordings were great, few musicians could match their live performances. Without question, they are far more worthy of induction than many artists already in the Hall.

The MC5 aren't getting much love, and it's unlikely they will be inducted anytime soon. I believe they should be in based on "musical influence on other artists." The list of bands and artists citing them as a primary influence is long and impressive, including (but by no means limited to) Alice Cooper, The New York Dolls, The Sex Pistols, The Ramones, The Clash, Mudhoney, The Dead Boys, Dead Kennedys, Henry Rollins, Jon Spencer, The Melvins, Patti Smith, Primal Scream, Richard Hell, Soundgarden, Generation X, Hüsker Dü, The Misfits, Motörhead, Queens of the Stone Age, The Vines, The White Stripes, and Joan Jett. While no artist or band should be inducted based on one song, Kick Out the Jams should almost be enough on its own to get them inducted.

Carry on...

[Mikey]

^^^^^^^^^

I pretty much agree with all of that.

I've never been a fan of "grunge" but I can see where some of the bands have been influential.

I'm not sure why Joan Baez is on the list. Very influential as a folk singer / songwriter / activist. But Rock and Roll? Her biggest "hit" was written by Robbie Robertson.

[Smackie Chan]

I'm not sure why Joan Baez is on the list.

I'm not sure why Laura Nyro is already in.

[Mikey]

I'm not sure why Joan Baez is on the list.

I'm not sure why Laura Nyro is already in.

Probably as a songwriter. Her list of songs recorded by other artists is pretty impressive. Maybe not HOF material, but she had friends in high places I guess.