So how overrated is Jeter?

[TheJON]

We all know the guy is overrated (if you don't get your lips off ESPN's cock), but HOW much is he overrated?

First things first, it's obvious the guy is a lock to be a 1st ballot HOFer. Why? I haven't a clue. According to ESPN "he's a winner with incredible intangibles." Biggest load of crap I've ever heard. It's baseball for fuck's sake......intangibles are almost meaningless. He's won because he's had 8 other players around him that could start for anyone his entire career. As for the intangibles crap, give me a break. What intangibles are they talking about? Is it kinda like Angels In the Outfield where he's able to will them to victory? ESPN just makes a bunch of shit up. Having great "intangibles" in baseball is nearly pointless. I can't believe people believe this garbage ESPN feeds them.

Defensively, Jeter has always been pretty darn good. Not great, but certainly above average. The only way he was ever going to win a Gold Glove was if A-Rod switched positions. Jeter is not even close defensively to the likes of Vizquel and Ozzie.

Offensively, again, he's always been pretty darn good but not great. A perfect #2 hitter but not good enough to be a #3 or #4 hitter. I don't think many people really know Jeter's numbers. They just assume he's an unstoppable player because that's what ESPN tells us on a regular basis and because the NY fans jerk off to him. But the truth is, he's really done nothing spectacular in his career. Just been a darn good, consistent ballplayer for the last 12 years or so. Definitely a better career than most, but to claim this guy is the best in baseball (like ESPN has said for years) or that he should be a lock to be a 1st ballot HOFer is a joke. If the argument is "well, look at all the rings he's got" than you better put Paul O'Neill, Bernie Williams, etc in the HOF as well.

Let me ask the board this......What is the BEST hitter you'd intentionally walk Jeter to get to with 1st base open? Certainly not anyone that great. Nobody like Pujols, A-Rod, or Matt Holliday. Probably not even guys like Mark Grudzielanek or Ryan Theriot. So who? I always thought great players were ones that pitchers fear facing. Pitchers don't fear Jeter.

Jeter is a career .315 hitter with a .386 OBP. Yes, that is impressive but you must remember what he's had hitting behind him. .315 in the #2 hole in NY is maybe .305 anywhere else. So regardless, it's a very good average. Not taking that away from him.

Runs scored is the most overrated stat in baseball. Again, this goes back to what he has hitting behind him. He's averaged almost 110 runs per year which is outstanding but that means the guys behind him are doing a good job of driving him in.

Overall he is a .315 hitter with an average of 16 HR, 75 RBI, 110 Runs, 50 extra base hits, and 20 stolen bases to go along with above average fielding. Those are very good numbers. Almost great, but not quite.

I'm in no way trying to say Jeter is a lousy player. He's a very good one. But I think what I've shown here proves he's not even close to the type of player we're led on to believe especially when you realize that on top of what I've said above he's never really been an MVP contender except once or twice in his career.

The guy just isn't a first ballot HOFer in my mind and I really don't see why he's considered as great as they say he is. What exactly is so spectacular about the guy? The Yankees never won because of Jeter. They've won because they've had 25 guys relatively similar or BETTER than Derek Jeter. If you believe in the intangibles ESPN claims he has you're just fucking dumb.

If Jeter put up the same numbers and won a few World Series rings with the Royals he'd be just another very good big leaguer. But because he plays in New York, he's the greatest player ever.

[Goober McTuber]

Jeter’s probably highly rated because he’s a better than average glove while being one of the better hitting shortstops ever. Here’s an interesting link looking at the best shortstops ever (Jeter is #8):

http://www.thebaseballpage.com/position ... ngs/SS.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Shoalzie]

A lot has to do with his work in the postseason...he's the all-time leader in hits in the playoffs if I'm not mistaken. Then again, there's an extra round so I think postseason numbers now compared to the days of only one or two series tend to be warped.

[M Club]

probably because the hof argument for most players is his numbers weren't the best, but... whereas your argument against jeter is his numbers are brilliant but they don't count.

[TheJON]

Shoalzie,

You're right about their being more rounds and not only that but more teams and no player in MLB history has been put in a position where they could play in so many postseason games as Jeter. And his postseason numbers really aren't anything spectacular either. .309 average is very good, but 49 RBI's in 125 games is pretty mediocre.

M Club,

Jeter's numbers are brilliant? How so? I just threw his stats up there and I'm not sure other than batting average what is so brilliant about his numbers. 16 HR's and 75 RBI's is merely average. His defense is above average but certainly not great. I will say, there are players in the HOF that Jeter clearly is better than. Guys like Bill Mazeroski......they shouldn't be in the Hall. So I'm not necessarily saying Jeter shouldn't be a HOFer per say, but for him to be a lock for a first ballot HOFer is a frickin' joke. That goes to guys like George Brett, Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, Tony Gwynn, etc... Guys like Jeter get in on their 3rd or 4th try in a year there aren't any other big names. But because the media has whacked off to his "pretty face" for so long, he'll get about 95% of the votes his first time and that is a shame.

[Laxplayer]

I guess Gehrig shouldn't be in because he had Ruth hitting behind him. If we use your logic then nobody from a good team would be in the HOF. Should Manny make it because he had a lot of talent around him in Boston? Should we take Mantle out because he had guys like Berra etc...hitting around him and the Yanks had good pitching and a bunch of hall of famers around him. Your logic is faulty.

[M Club]

i'm curious how those pedestrian numbers compare to other shortstops in the hall. jeter will probably end his career with 3000+ hits. he hits over .300 in the playoffs. pretty funny how someone like you who rails against the juice criticizes a shortstop for only averaging 16 homeruns and 75 rbis a year while batting in the two spot.

[TheJON]

I did not say no one with talent hitting behind them deserves the HOF, I'm saying that part of the reason he's put up the numbers he has is because of those hitters behind him in the lineup. And if he's as great as they say he is, considering what he has hitting behind him, shouldn't he be putting up bigger numbers than he is.

16 HR's and 75 RBI's is nothing special even in the pre-steroid era.

I'm not saying the guy isn't a damn good ballplayer, but he's not even close to as good as the media claims he is and you can't dispute that. There are AT LEAST 20-25 better overall ballplayers (excluding pitchers) in the game right now than Jeter.

Heck, there's quite a few shortstops I'd take over Jeter that are playing right now...

Jimmy Rollins, Miguel Tejada, ALEX RODRIGUEZ!, Michael Young, Hanley Ramirez.......he's the 6th best shortstop in the game if you include A-Rod (and A-Rod should be playing short, by the way).

Personally, I don't care how he stacks up to the other shortstops in the hall because there were very few good offensive shortstops pre-1990. Middle infield was always a defensive positions (save for a few players). Ozzie Smith hit like a girl, but he got in because he was an amazing fielder and had a personality everyone (except for LaRussa) loved. I think Omar Vizquel will get in for his defense as well.

Jeter's going to get in for what reasons? Because his TEAM won? He's never been the best at his position either offensively or defensively. Heck, over the last 5 years or so he's maybe the 5th or 6th best shortstops in the game. If that's a 95% first ballot HOFer than players like Johnny Damon deserve to be eventual HOFers (he'll never get in, no chance in hell) or you're only proving me right that he's only as good as the media says he is.

You should compare Damon and Jeter's statistics. They're very similar. Jeter's got a bit higher of an average but otherwise they're almost identical. So I say that if you guys think Jeter should be a lock for a first ballot HOFer than Johnny Damon deserves to be an eventual HOFer as well and there's no way in hell I can make a case for Johnny to ever get in.

[M Club]

16 hrs and 75 rbis was nothing to sneeze at in an era when 35 homeruns gave you a good shot at leading the league and 40 nearly guaranteed it.

jeter's been one of the best shortstops for nearly 13 years now. you can pick apart individual seasons and say he was only the fourth best that year and the sixth this, but the fact is he's been consistently up there while others come and go. like i said, he's going to end his career with 3000+ hits and no gambling incidents, which is a pretty good marker of whether or not you belong in the hall, regardless what espn or the noj has to say. he's hit below .300 only three times in his career, and each of those times he was at .290+. and defensively he's not a liability. it's difficult to come by a five-tool shortstop. you either tolerate poor fielding because dooder can hit or you tolerate a .200 average because the guy has a gold glove. jeter has been above average at both his entire career.

as far as media love, you sort of earn that reputation when your career begins by contributing heavily to four world series. he wasn't a robert horry or sam cassell who happened to be drafted by a team that was going to win a couple championships. he was a big part of those championships.

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

To be perfectly honest, I don't even know what "overrated" means anymore. That phrase gets tossed around more than Mark Cuban's salad. Jeter's a hell of a player though, and a first ballot HOF'er, if that means anything.

[TheJON]

But why is he a first ballot HOFer? He's never been MVP, he's only contended for the MVP once or twice, he's only won a couple of gold gloves because A-Rod switched positions, his power numbers are merely average, and his average is outstanding but you could argue that's part due to the hitters he's always had behind him. And on top of that he's maybe the 5th or 6th best player at his position in the game right now and he's never been the top player at his position at any point in time during his career.

But ESPN tells us he's as good as anyone. If you ask people at ESPN on camera where Jeter ranks in the game today they'd most likely tell you he's Top 3 which is complete and utter bullshit and you all know that. They know that. I bet if you ask those retards on BBTN what they really think of Jeter off camera they'd say he's maybe Top 20 or Top 25 and no higher. But Jeter's such a marketable guy and he's been a mainstay on the Yankees- the darling team of YES2 errrrrr ESPN. So naturally, they'd overhype him. Makes sense.

It's kind of like the Tyler Hansborough-Michael Beasley debate last year as to who the best player is. Anyone with any bit of hoops knowledge knows Beasley was clearly better but Hansborough plays at UNC and so ESPN announcers claimed he was the best yet it's likely they truly felt otherwise.

To me, a first ballot HOFer is a guy that isn't JUST consistently good. But consistently GREAT and puts up numbers that really jump off the page. It must be a player that's won at least 1 MVP award, been a perennial all-star, was at least Top 2 at their position throughout their careers, and put up monster numbers. Now, that's not to say Jeter isn't a guy that should get in maybe with the 3rd or 4th try. Maybe even 2nd. But I just can't see how a .315 hitter that averages 16 HR's, 75 RBI's, 20 stolen bases, was merely an above average fielder, was never much of an MVP candidate, and never the top player at his position should be a first ballot lock. You've gotta have great years to be a first ballot HOFer, and Jeter just doesn't. He has a bunch of very good seasons, but no great ones. I'm sorry, but that ain't first ballot. Not in my opinion, at least. Maybe my standards are too high.

[TheJON]

Here is your list of 1st ballot HOFers....

Wade Boggs 2005
Dennis Eckersley 2004
Paul Molitor 2004
Eddie Murray 2003
Ozzie Smith 2002
Dave Winfield 2001
Kirby Puckett 2001
George Brett 1999
Nolan Ryan 1999
Robin Yount 1999
Mike Schmidt 1995
Steve Carlton 1994
Reggie Jackson 1993
Tom Seaver 1992
Rod Carew 1991
Joe Morgan 1990
Jim Palmer 1990
Carl Yastrzemski 1989
Johnny Bench 1989
Willie Stargell 1988
Willie McCovey 1986
Lou Brock 1985
Brooks Robinson 1983
Frank Robinson 1982
Hank Aaron 1982
Bob Gibson 1981
Al Kaline 1980
Willie Mays 1979
Ernie Banks 1977
Mickey Mantle 1974
Warren Spahn 1973
Sandy Koufax 1972
Stan Musial 1969
Ted Williams 1966
Bob Feller 1962
Jackie Robinson 1962


After seeing that list, there's no way you can argue him to be a first ballot HOFer. He's got nothing on any of those guys. It's an elite class that Jeter just doesn't belong in.

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

Your "lack of power" arguement falls pretty flat. This is a shortstop we're talking here. I don't think that's a stat that will concern voters. If anything, that stat should help him because it shows he has above average power for a shortstop.

I don't think a lack of MVPs will overshadow what the guy did on the field. He's a 9 time All-Star, was AL rookie of the year, All-Star MVP, and a World Series MVP. He's got some pretty significant hardware. Oh, he's also got 4 rings to his credit. Yeah, you add all that up and it's more impressive than a single MVP award. You conveniently discard the 4 World Series trophies he undoubtedly helped his team win. You can downplay that all you want, but it doens't take those rings away. He wasn't a utility man who had the benefit of being at the right place at the right time. He was extremely instrumental in helping win those championships, and I don't think there's any question that will be recognized by the HOF voters. You add the ridiculous amount of winning with the statistics, and, as M Club mentioned, his 3,000 hits which he'll have when he retires, and yep, you've got yourself a first ballot HOF'er.

Sorry you had to find out this way.

[Adelpiero]

he's a first ballot guy.

his defense has always been overrated, when ESPN licks your hole, for making routine plays, you tend to be a little better defensively than you really are.

when it comes to crunch time, the fuckin guy was clutch. One could say, he carried the Yankmees to several of those world series they went too,.

[Shoalzie]

The fact he's in pinstripes amplifies anything he does. He has done plenty of exceptional things and he'd be a quality player on pretty much any team. He's going to finish this year with more than 2500 hits...on his current pace, he'll pick up another 59 or 60 hits the final 52 games of the season. He sits at 2473. I can't imagine he won't reach 3000 hits within three seasons. You have to average 166 or 167 hits a year for three season to get 500 hits...that should be attainable given his consistency.

He could go into the Hall of Fame just on his offensive numbers alone as a shortstop. He's not posting power numbers like Cal Ripken, who has more than twice and many homers in his career. Jeter is approaching 1000 RBI...just needs 17 more. Ripken had 1695 in his 20 year career. If Jeter has 3 more years at his present pace, he'll surpass Ripken in RBI. The one thing Jeter has in his favor is his .315 career average versus Cal's .276. If Ozzie Smith is a first ballot guy given his average numbers but obviously had the defensive prowess...Jeter should get in on the first ballot based on his numbers and his impressive work in the postseason.

[bbqjones]

Jeter is approaching 1000 RBI...just needs 17 more. Ripken had 1695 in his 20 year career. If Jeter has 3 more years at his present pace, he'll surpass Ripken in RBI.

230 rbi per season is definate HOF first ballot.

[Shoalzie]

Yeah, I think I miscalculated...thanks for calling me out on that.

He pretty much averages one RBI for every two games played. If he played at his average rate of 152 games a year and his career pace for RBI, he'd reach Ripken in 2017...if he plays that long. He'd have to play 3341 games to get there and Ripken played 3001 games to get his numbers. Needless to say, I don't think that's likely for Jeter to play 22 years although he stays relatively healthy and he's still playing at a pretty high level.

[Goober McTuber]

Jeter is approaching 1000 RBI...just needs 17 more. Ripken had 1695 in his 20 year career. If Jeter has 3 more years at his present pace, he'll surpass Ripken in RBI.

230 rbi per season is definate HOF first ballot.

bbq correcting Shoalzie's math? Looks like somebody woke up sober today. Take a bow and pound a 12-pack, jones.

[TheJON]

I nominate R-Jack for Least Knowledgeable Sports Board Poster ever. Dipshit, leave the sports discussion to people who know sports and take your ass back to the Cul de Smack where retards like you belong.

Before you come back with your defensive genius bullshit, consider that the "slightly above average" Jeter has an almost identical fielding percentage and averages less errors per game than "The Wizard".

Right. Because we all know fielding percentage in baseball tells all. You fucking dolt, anyone with any bit of baseball knowledge knows fielding percentage is the most overrated stat ever. Now shut the fuck up.

Fucking laughable that you bash Jeter's greatness as a media creation and turn around and laud a .262 hitter who did backflips for the cameras as an example of what a first ballot HOFers is.

Ozzie is the most overrated player of all-time. So what's your point? Ozzie was a media creation as well and even Cardinals fans deep down know this. He hit like a girl. Without the charm and the backflip, he probably never even gets a sniff at the Hall. As much as I rip on Jeter, he's 10 times the player Ozzie ever was. I'm not saying defense doesn't matter, but to get into the hall simply because of defense is a joke.

consider that the "slightly above average" Jeter

Learn to read or shut the fuck up. I never said Jeter is "slightly above average". I said his DEFENSE is. He's well above average. Just not great. Great players are first ballot HOFers (except for a couple of overrated bums like Ozzie). Jeter is just not great. Very good? Yes. Great? No. And not one single person in here has made one argument for being GREAT.

R-Jack, go back to the Cul de Smack. Seriously, sports clearly ain't your thing. Fuckin' moron.

[M Club]

uh, plenty of people have made arguments for jeter being great. you choose to willfully ignore their relevance. at least two reasons he'll be a first-ballot hof'er:

[1] 3000 hits. from wiki:

Every member of the club is in the Baseball Hall of Fame except for those who are not eligible. Furthermore, every eligible player who has reached 3,000 hits after 1962 has been elected on the first ballot.

[2] one of the best players on a team that has never missed the post season in his entire career.

perhaps you can throw out one of those lead pipe locks of yours where you state he won't be inducted five years after he retires. or perhaps i'll make my own lead pipe lock where i predict you'll say he's going to be elected the his first go-round but only b/c he's being fellated by the national media that has someone picked up on the fact jeter is a great baseball player.

quite honestly, the fact you've convinced no one of your opinion speaks to the fallacy of your thinking, not ours.

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

quite honestly, the fact you've convinced no one of your opinion speaks to the fallacy of your thinking, not ours.

Heh

[TheJON]

M Club,

Jeter has 3,000 hits? He's actually more than 500 hits shy of 3,000. He'll probably get there, but it's no lock. Let's say he suffers some major injuries down the road and is forced to retire shy of 3,000 kind of like Barry Bonds did. Then what will your argument for Jeter be? Will it be those stunning 8 RBI's he's had in 32 career World Series games. See, there's one more thing. We're all told how clutch he is in the postseason. 8 RBI's in 32 WS games is hardly clutch. 49 RBI's in 123 overall postseason games is something you'd expect from a #9 hitter. I guess a couple of big postseason hits makes a guy "clutch". Heck, David Eckstein has 1 less WS RBI than Jeter in 1/3 of the games. See, this right here is my point about Jeter. It's not that he's not a good player. He is. It's just that he's not as good as we're led to believe and people can't think for themselves so they rely on ESPN and other media outlets to tell them whose good and they buy into it.

What about Jeter is so flashy? Seriously......answer that question. Consistency is flashy? Consistently being above average makes the guy worthy of being lumped into the category of players such as Willie Mays, George Brett, Hank Aaron, etc???

I'm sorry, but a first ballot HOFer to me is someone that not only was the best at his position throughout his career but a guy that dominated the game. 3rd or 4th ballot, that's a different story (which is where Jeter should be). Jeter never dominated, Jeter never really did anything spectacular.

The whole crap about how he was one of the best on a team that won all the time is a load of crap. This is baseball- a sport where many of the games greatest players never won jack squat. That's just how it is. One player can only impact a team so much. I don't care who you are, to win consistently you have to be lucky. Heck, take a former Yankee Don Mattingly as a prime example. Never made the postseason until his last year (and he didn't really play much that year). I suppose he sucks because his team didn't win, right??

Jeter has never been and never will be one of the top 20-25 players in the game at any point in time during his career and to me there's no way I can even make a case for a guy being a first ballot HOFer based on that. You guys are nuts if you don't think the media has overhyped this guy and been a HUGE part of the reason he's as highly regarded of a ballplayer as he is. Come on now.....whatever your views on the guy are, I don't care. You're entitled to your opinion. But to disagree with the media overhyping the guy......that's just insane. He is NOT the player many of you think he is. He is a very good player, always has been. But he is not great. He never has been. Great players are the only players that deserve to be first ballot HOFers......and like I said, Jeter is not great. Not only do I have 6 million stats to prove that, but I've also seen enough Yankee games to know he's simply good.

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

Jeter is not great. Not only do I have 6 million stats to prove that...

You can't "prove" anything, you nitwit.

"Great" is something that is completely subjective, and your opinion of what constitutes greatness is nothing more or less than just that...an opinion. In this case, an opinion that seems to be heavily grinded with an axe. And when the guy is elected first ballot, you can take your "proof" and use it to garnish your crow.

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

By the way, a career batting average of .315 up to this point is anything but just good. In fact, it's great. In fact, he'll likely retire with a higher average than many of those first ballot guys.

[M Club]

M Club,

Jeter has 3,000 hits? He's actually more than 500 hits shy of 3,000.

i get it now: your entire argument is predicated on the assumption he'll retire after this year. ok, i'm with you now: he's no first-ballot hof'er. aside from that, the assumption has been that jeter's career will follow a certain trajectory. at this pace he'll reach 3000 in three years. since his skills are going to begin diminishing it might take him four, possibly five, just to be conservative. regardless of when, he'll most likely reach 3000 hits, which on its own is one of those great numbers you're looking for to justify why he's a first-ballot hof'er. only 23 other players have reached that milestone, one that requires sustained excellence as opposed to some stupid freak record some misc. player breaks for hitting lead-off homeruns in three consecutive days or something like that.

What about Jeter is so flashy? Seriously......answer that question. Consistency is flashy? Consistently being above average makes the guy worthy of being lumped into the category of players such as Willie Mays, George Brett, Hank Aaron, etc???

what, you want flashy now? if i were you i'd first work on my consistency, and afterward i'd think about who i use to make unfavorable comparisons. george brett? the same george brett who averaged 16 home runs and 80 rbis while hitting .305? that same george brett who got 98% of the vote on his first try who was nothing more than a media sensation because he was intense and wore a dirty uniform?

The whole crap about how he was one of the best on a team that won all the time is a load of crap. This is baseball- a sport where many of the games greatest players never won jack squat. That's just how it is. One player can only impact a team so much. I don't care who you are, to win consistently you have to be lucky. Heck, take a former Yankee Don Mattingly as a prime example. Never made the postseason until his last year (and he didn't really play much that year). I suppose he sucks because his team didn't win, right??

players are unfairly criticized for playing on shite teams throughout their careers, true, but that doesn't mean the opposite, that players shouldn't be venerated for helping their teams win as often as jeter has helped the yankees. all these numbers are the means to the ultimate goal: winning.

You guys are nuts if you don't think the media has overhyped this guy and been a HUGE part of the reason he's as highly regarded of a ballplayer as he is. Come on now.....whatever your views on the guy are, I don't care. You're entitled to your opinion. But to disagree with the media overhyping the guy......that's just insane. He is NOT the player many of you think he is.

no one's arguing likewise about the media's adulation. we're just saying that what remains after all the hype is removed is a great baseball player who will likely be a first-ballot hof'er, justifiably.

george brett?

[TheJON]

I get your Brett comparison, and on the surface you might have a decent argument. But there's no comparison between the 2. None.

First off, he was a better fielder. Unlike Jeter, he's got an MVP. He finished in the Top 3 of the voting 6 times. He had GREAT years. Quite a few of them. Of course his averages ended up at numbers similar to Jeter but that's INCLUDING his post-prime years.

Plus, one thing you didn't mention was injuries. Brett managed these numbers while suffering minor injuries just about every year of his career. In the prime of his career he put up better power-run producing numbers than Jeter did while playing less games. He was a better fielder, and on top of that.....he managed to put together quite a few GREAT years whereas Jeter hasn't. Just good years. He dominated the game, while still being consistent. And he did it for 20 years. And George won too. The Royals were consistently contending in the AL West. Brett was also a great postseason hitter, in fact better than Jeter he just played in less games. 10 HR's in 43 games is more than Jeter hit in 123. And he hit for a higher average than Jeter.

If Jeter hangs around as long as George did, it's doubtful his batting average and run-producing numbers are even close to Brett.

[M Club]

i suppose brett's a better fielder considering he was moved to 3B because he didn't have the range to play SS at the major league level. once there he committed .15 errors/game while jeter has committed .10 errors/game. and i suppose you have a valid point considering his injuries. another way to state that he was oft-injured is to say: at the beginning of any given season, the royals could expect 16 home runs and 80 rbis from george brett, numbers comparable to what the yankees might expect of derek jeter.

i don't really know how to address your statement about his twilight years. when did those begin? i looked at his stats and it initially seemed like his last three years would be classified as such, but the only real statistical drop off was in batting average and strike outs. his power numbers were never really that great. he hit 30 homers once, his next best year was 25, and he hit 19 his final campaign. he also had 100+ rbis only four times.

as for the mvp argument, jeter has finished in the top three twice. sure, he hasn't one one, but the same people voting for that are pretty much the same ones who will induct jeter into the hall as soon as he's eligible.

and for the record, je deteste derek jeter. [1] he plays for the yankees and [2] my lady friend wore a yankees shirt with his name and number on it to bed the whole time we lived in africa. i should find a photo.

[Rack Fu]

Your logic is faulty.

No, it's just plain fucking stupid.

[Terry in Crapchester]

Here is your list of 1st ballot HOFers....

Wade Boggs 2005
Dennis Eckersley 2004
Paul Molitor 2004
Eddie Murray 2003
Ozzie Smith 2002
Dave Winfield 2001
Kirby Puckett 2001
George Brett 1999
Nolan Ryan 1999
Robin Yount 1999
Mike Schmidt 1995
Steve Carlton 1994
Reggie Jackson 1993
Tom Seaver 1992
Rod Carew 1991
Joe Morgan 1990
Jim Palmer 1990
Carl Yastrzemski 1989
Johnny Bench 1989
Willie Stargell 1988
Willie McCovey 1986
Lou Brock 1985
Brooks Robinson 1983
Frank Robinson 1982
Hank Aaron 1982
Bob Gibson 1981
Al Kaline 1980
Willie Mays 1979
Ernie Banks 1977
Mickey Mantle 1974
Warren Spahn 1973
Sandy Koufax 1972
Stan Musial 1969
Ted Williams 1966
Bob Feller 1962
Jackie Robinson 1962


After seeing that list, there's no way you can argue him to be a first ballot HOFer. He's got nothing on any of those guys. It's an elite class that Jeter just doesn't belong in.

He has 2482 hits and counting. Barring a serious injury, he'd appear to be pretty close to a lock for the 3,000 hit club. That's pretty much a magic number for the HOF, as long as steroids aren't an issue (and in Jeter's case, they're not). The fact that he plays an important defensive position, and in your grudging admission, plays it pretty well, is a bonus.

Jeter's career stats: http://www.baseball-reference.com/j/jeterde01.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Btw, NOJ, you might want to take a look at the similar hitters at the bottom of the page. Most of them either are or will be in the HOF. Also, the fact that A-Rod agreed to move to 3B so he could be traded to the Yankees might be an indicator of the regard in which he holds Jeter. Just sayin'.

[TheJON]

Also, the fact that A-Rod agreed to move to 3B so he could be traded to the Yankees might be an indicator of the regard in which he holds Jeter.

Dude, A-Rod and Jeter aren't exactly buddies. A-Rod agreed to move to 3B because he knew if he even tried to force The Golden Boy to switch positions the Yankee fans would sodomize his mother. Ever since A-Rod's been on the Yankees, Jeter hasn't even been the best at his position......on his own team! The only position A-Rod will non-begrudgingly switch positions with Jeter is from catcher to pitcher.

[Terry in Crapchester]

NOJ,

Going back to this . . .

Here is your list of 1st ballot HOFers....

Wade Boggs 2005
Dennis Eckersley 2004
Paul Molitor 2004
Eddie Murray 2003
Ozzie Smith 2002
Dave Winfield 2001
Kirby Puckett 2001
George Brett 1999
Nolan Ryan 1999
Robin Yount 1999
Mike Schmidt 1995
Steve Carlton 1994
Reggie Jackson 1993
Tom Seaver 1992
Rod Carew 1991
Joe Morgan 1990
Jim Palmer 1990
Carl Yastrzemski 1989
Johnny Bench 1989
Willie Stargell 1988
Willie McCovey 1986
Lou Brock 1985
Brooks Robinson 1983
Frank Robinson 1982
Hank Aaron 1982
Bob Gibson 1981
Al Kaline 1980
Willie Mays 1979
Ernie Banks 1977
Mickey Mantle 1974
Warren Spahn 1973
Sandy Koufax 1972
Stan Musial 1969
Ted Williams 1966
Bob Feller 1962
Jackie Robinson 1962


After seeing that list, there's no way you can argue him to be a first ballot HOFer. He's got nothing on any of those guys. It's an elite class that Jeter just doesn't belong in.

Your biggest knock on Jeter is that he has never won an MVP award. Here's a list of MVP winners . . .

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/awards/mlb_award ... vp_history" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So if you cross-reference that list against your list of first-ballot HOFers (which is not complete, btw), you'll find that the following first-ballot HOFers, non-pitchers all, never won an MVP award:

Wade Boggs
Paul Molitor
Eddie Murray
Ozzie Smith
Dave Winfield
Kirby Puckett
Lou Brock
Al Kaline

And btw, if winning the MVP award is a criterion for making the HOF, the following guys, by your logic, belong in the HOF:

Zoilo Versailles
Boog Powell
Jeff Burroughs
Kevin Mitchell
Terry Pendleton

Not to mention that Jeter is a much better offensive player (although not nearly as spectacular a defensive player) as Ozzie Smith, a first-ballot HOFer at his position. Jeter is a much better fielder than another first-ballot HOFer at his position (Ripken).

Selecting for the HOF is an inexact science, but primarily (imho, anyway) it requires sustained greatness over an extended period of time. The first-ballot HOFers you mentioned all fit in that category. But so does Jeter.

[Goober McTuber]

^^^^^^
Exactly.

Nice post, Terry.

[Dinsdale]

One morning, Derek Jeter woke up, wiped the sleep from his eyes, and looked across the bed at Jessica Alba's glorious naked body...

And thought to himself "She's alright, but I can do better."


Nuff said.

Don't put him in the HoF on the first Ballot... build him his own fucking wing.

[rozy]

When you get your ass handed to you by Terry, you know it's time to shoot your computer.

[indyfrisco]

As always...

[TheJON]

Sorry for bringing too many facts into an argument with the ESPN Parrot board. My apologies. It won't happen again.

You guys are right......Build an entire wing for Jeter in the Hall because he's the best player ever. His 1940's power numbers are simply amazing. Those 8 RBI's in 32 world series games......how can anyone top that? Mr. Clutch for sure and those numbers prove it.

So what if the guys never even been one of the Top 20 players over a 3-4 year span? He's still the greatest ever.

So what if his numbers compare with a lot of players that will never get a sniff at the hall (ie Bernie, Johnny, and Mattingly)? He's a first ballot HOFer because ESPN says so and I can't think for myself so I'm going to take their word on it.

Just the fact that Jete's has made it to the postseason so much proves how clutch he is. The 4 World Series titles? It was all him and anyone that tells you otherwise is fucking retarded. His "intangibles" willed the Yankees to the playoffs every year. Granted, I can't quite put my finger on what these "intangibles" are exactly but ESPN says he's got them so who am I to question brilliant minds like John Kruk, Steve Phillips, and Chris Berman?

And besides, we all know the greats in baseball all win titles because they're so talented they can win titles on their own. The Yankees success has been all because of Jeter and his 16 HR's, 75 RBI's, 100 strikeouts, and above average defense. Not because the whole fucking team did that!

And so what if he's never won an MVP, been the best player at his position, or even been the best player at his position on his own team the last 5 years? He's a first ballot HOFer. I'm not really sure why, but I think it's because he's a good looking All-American guy with "intangibles". That's what I'm told so that's what I'll believe. I can't think for myself. I also can't bring facts into an argument. I have to resort to disputing posters FACTUAL remarks by calling said poster names because I know he's right.

Oh wait, I'm sorry......I thought I was someone else. Nevermind. I'll carry on with my argument that no one can seem to come up with a decent rebuttal to (except M Club, though I disagree with him, but at least he brought something to the table unlike fucking idiots like Dinsdale, Rozy, R-Jack, etc)

.315
16 HR's
75 RBI's
100 strikeouts
100 runs
20 stolen bases
above average but not great defense

Are those numbers worthy of FIRST BALLOT HOFer AND Top 3 player in the game status (which is what ESPN has everyone convinced of)?? Quite simply put......no.

2nd ballot HOF numbers?? Maybe. I suppose I could live with that.

3rd ballot or beyond?? Definitely.

3rd ballot HOF is where the guys that were 2nd tier players in their generation should be voted in. That's where Jeter is. He's not in the Griffey, A-Rod, Vlad Guerrero, Albert Pujols, etc category. Those are/were the games elite players. Those are the guys deserving of a 1st ballot HOF vote and recognition at the level Jeter gets from the media. But he's always been in that group right below it. Along with guys like Craig Biggio, Michael Young, Barry Larkin, Johnny Damon, Bernie Williams, etc. These are guys that are boderline HOFers, though some stand out above the others in terms of deserving an induction. But none of those guys are ever the MVP candidates or up there with the elite players. They're all very good players, just not the games elite. And not one of you can argue that Jeter doesn't belong in that first tier of players. His numbers and his game (I mean on the field game, Dinsdale) back that statement up.

Jeter is not one of the game's elite. He's a very good player. A deserving HOF- just not on the first ballot. And to sit there and claim he's a Top 3-5 player in the game like ESPN does and like you guys are leading on is absolutely propostorous. There is NO argument anyone with any baseball knowledge (sorry Dinsdale, etc....that excludes you then) could make to support ESPN's claims. Sorry guys, he's overrated and you can't dispute that.

[TheJON]

have you realized that sticking your fingers in your ears and going "LALALALA" like a petulant child doesn't mean you haven't had your ass handed to you by everyone on this point?

Guess not.

Thank you, R-Jack, for proving my point. You make it too easy. I'll just assume you concede the argument and have acknowledged what a fucking clueless moron you are and don't have any baseball knowledge.

[rozy]

Your points are all ridiculously stupid so why would anyone want to waste time on it?

[RJ]

Holy motherfuck......


This thread should be entered into the "Dumbfuck Hall of Fame" immediately.


Jeter is a first ballot HOF'er. EOS.

[Goober McTuber]

T1B has its own Dumbfuck Hall of Fame. It’s right here.