Tea Baggers and Glenn Beck et al

[smackaholic]

what tod said.

mace, sounds like your wife more than earns her paycheck. if she was in ct, she'd be making a fair bit more. of course, her living expenses would be quite a bit more.

as for the 'we get a better pension deal because we sacrifice on the earning end while employed' arguement, it may have been true back in the day. it may still be true in iowa, although 63K a year sounds like a pretty fair check for keeping tabs on parolees. in ct, it is a bunch of bullshit. public sector employees earn more, on average than their private sector counterparts and their pension plans are wayyyyyy better. actually, the fact that they exist makes them better by default.

[Felix]

in ct, it is a bunch of bullshit. public sector employees earn more, on average than their private sector counterparts and their pension plans are wayyyyyy better. actually, the fact that they exist makes them better by default.

then connecticut is the exception not the rule
having been on both sides, in my particular profession I can tell you that the private sector makes considerably more money than do public employees performing the same duties....same goes for virtually every state in the west...

[smackaholic]

I can tell you that the private sector makes considerably more money than do public employees performing the same duties.

What private sector jobs are you talking about? In Ohio at least, private sector teachers (e.g., parochial and charter schools) make significantly less than public school teachers, both in terms of salary and benefits. Again, in Ohio at least, private sector security guards and rent-a-cops make signficantly less than police officers, both in terms of salary and benefits. I can't think of any private sector jobs that pay better than corresponding public sector jobs.

Here is a USA Today analysis of federal vs. private sector jobs:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/201 ... -pay_N.htm

Most do better on the public dime than in the "free" market.

there is one profession, 88.

yours.

a competent attorney in a private practice does better than a public defender, or even the DA, for that matter. I can't think of a single other example though other than maybe the lower ranks of the military.

[Screw_Michigan]

PR hacks to a lot better in the Govt (who knew?), but they are already doing pretty well here. I know a guy my age who is pulling down $70k flacking for some firm. I need to get in on that.

Holy christ: Look at this:

Public relations manager Fed: $132,410 Private: $88,241 Diff: $44,169

Editors do better in the private sector according to that report. What about editors with jizz-mopping experience?

[Felix]

What private sector jobs are you talking about?

right of way professionals in general, and real estate appraisers in particular...

In Ohio at least, private sector teachers (e.g., parochial and charter schools) make significantly less than public school teachers, both in terms of salary and benefits.

but his rant wasn't directed at teachers, it was directed at government employees in general

Again, in Ohio at least, private sector security guards and rent-a-cops make signficantly less than police officers, both in terms of salary and benefits. I can't think of any private sector jobs that pay better than corresponding public sector jobs.

I just provided you two, and I can assure you that governmental appraisers make considerably less than private sector appraisers, even when one considers the benefits package that comes with a government job....

Here is a USA Today analysis of federal vs. private sector jobs:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/201 ... -pay_N.htm

Most do better on the public dime than in the "free" market.

you need to make up your mind as to whether we're talking state or federal jobs?

[Dinsdale]

then connecticut is the exception not the rule
having been on both sides, in my particular profession I can tell you that the private sector makes considerably more money than do public employees performing the same duties....same goes for virtually every state in the west...

The last vote in Oregon, there was a big new tax package on the table.

We got some very detailed breakdowns of public vs. private sector employees... and it wasn't even close. Freaking yacht race.

Public employees in similar jobs did something like 60% better than their private counterparts... not including pension (it's called PERS), which has snowballed out of control and is essentially bankrupt in Oregon.

And the big problem is that it's become such a nanny state, that state and local workers now make up about half the workforce. So when a tax on corporations and high wage-earners designed to fund further increases in wages and bennies for the public employee unions goes on the ballot, it's just about garuanteed to pass... kind of a lose-lose for the other 50%. This is the inevitable outcome of an ever-increasing government.

[Felix]

How the hell was I supposed to know that you were only referring to "real estate appraisers."

I was referring to specifically people in my department that perform right of way functions-that includes negotiators, relocation agents, property management professionals, title agents, plans reviewers, as well as a wide variety of other functions...universally, they're underpaid compared to the private sector people performing the same functions.....we train about 100 engineers a year, and lose about 75% of those to the private sector...I'm sure they're leaving because the private sector pays less money

And after bitching about me bringing up teachers and cops (and a whole laundry list of other careers where public employees do better than the private sector) on grounds that you were only talking about real estate appraisers, you throw this out:

what is the private sector equivalent of a police officer? how can anyone make a comparison like that, because there is no private sector equivalent to those postiions

let me ask you an honest question....have you ever worked for the government....the reason I ask is that I always find these types of "the grass is greener" types of statements typically come from people that have never worked for the govt.

I've been around a few people with ADD... but they can usually string together a few sentences before they contradict themselves completely. What is it? Real estate appraisers or government employees in general?

look bud, you started referring to federal employees, then you started going off on state employees...you need to concentrate your rants on one or the other, and not jump back and forth saying teachers (who are state employees) are pulling down serious money, then cite some study of federal employees being paid higher than their private sector counterparts....so which do you want to discuss....feds, or state employees?

I thought you were the one who started the conversation about "public employees" being paid worse than their private sector equivalents.

yeah, my direct experience is on the state level, but I know some federal people that are underpaid compared to equivalent private sector employees

When shown that this not true in most instances, you've said you were only talking about real estate appraisers, not teachers, and now that is apparently limited to only state real estate appraisers.

okay, let me put this to you....the director of our department oversees a total of about 3,200 employees....balances budgets, etc......he makes a whomping $175,000 year....do you think that's equitable to what a CEO of a similarly sized company would be making?

Instead of just declaring that something is true, provide some evidence.

and instead of posting some poll put out by some research group, take it from the point of somebody that has personal experience....

the link is I WAS IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR and TOOK ABOUT A $50,000 a year hit on the money I make a year....the benefits package makes it about $20,000 year less, but still way under what I was making in the private sector...this isn't some fucking statistic put out by some research company, it's from real person first hand account

and it's not just me, virtually everyone in my department worked for the private sector and took a huge hit paywise....but I guess that doesn't match your statistics, so you're willing to just dismiss it as horseshit

[smackaholic]

what is the private sector equivalent of a police officer? how can anyone make a comparison like that, because there is no private sector equivalent to those postiions

security guard.

what do I win?

[Dinsdale]

what is the private sector equivalent of a police officer? how can anyone make a comparison like that, because there is no private sector equivalent to those postiions

security guard.

what do I win?

I live in the Portland area -- the equivalent to a Portland cop is "hit man."

[Derron]

Let me answer your question with some questions. Is the director of your department required to run your department such that it produces a profit? What if he believes that it would be better for his department to fire a third of his employees, can he take that action? Does your department director have to answer to a board of directors and shareholders, who can fire him if he isn't meeting their expectations? What competitors does your department have to beat in order to succeed in its particular industry? Can your department ever be declared bankrupt? When your director gets done preparing one of his awesome budgets, does he then have to go to a bank or loan committee and justify receiving the funds to finance your department's operations? And if he misses his budget, does that mean bad things for the department or just a larger budget the following year? What was it that makes your department director equivalent to a CEO, again?

Fucking rack this....and the answer is no or none to all , and that is why dude is "only" paid 175K for such work..if they had some one even worth that they might run better ....no P&L work required at all....rigghtttt..

[Goober McTuber]

Does a UPS deliveryguy make more than a mailman? I don’t know, but I do know they work a hell of a lot harder. My own opinion based on what I know from having friends in both the public and private sector (in Wisconsin) is that on average private sector may pay slightly more (certain occupations may be exceptions), but with no comparison when it comes to government benefits.

[Tom In VA]

There is much truth to what the Goobman just posted. My wife works for the county and her benefits are outstanding.

I've yet to find a benefits package that compared to the one I had when i was with the Fed. That being said, I nearly doubled my salary when i left the fed for private sector (1998). Since, i've come to understand their IT salaries are somewhat competitive. Probably striking the balance described by Goobs.

[Tom In VA]

We college kids were told in no uncertain terms that if we worked harder than they wanted us to work, they would kick our asses. So we spent large parts of the work day sleeping in the trucks, swimming in creeks and basically fucking around.

I've heard similar claims made of unions.

[BSmack]

We college kids were told in no uncertain terms that if we worked harder than they wanted us to work, they would kick our asses. So we spent large parts of the work day sleeping in the trucks, swimming in creeks and basically fucking around.

That is similar to my experience with NY DOT with one exception. When we contracted out for private firms to help with paving, those guys got the "union scale", which was like 20 dollars or more an hour no matter what they did. We still got the pay CSEA bargained for, which was anywhere between 10/hr for a grade 7 guy like me and up to 15/hr for grade 8 guys who were the roller and paver operators. Where we made our money was doing overtime during paving and plowing operations. But even so, it was pretty rare to see a grade 8 DOT worker who cleared more than 40k. That's why damn near everybody in the shop had a 2nd job.

[Felix]

One can only gather from your last post that you have nothing except a personal anecdote to support your contentions. No statistics or other comparative data. I guess we'll have take you at your word that you feel your are underpaid as compared to your private sector contemporaries.

hardly...but someone with my experience level could be expected to make approximately 40 to 50 thousand more in the private sector...I was offered a job down for a Los Angeles bank as an appraisal coordinator for about 60 thousand more than what I make working for the government...but they could have offered me 100 thousand more and I still wouldn't have taken it....

if you sense some hostility in my comments, its because so many people accuse government workers of nothing more than living off the government tit and it tends to piss me off....while I'd be the first to acknowledge that some people that hold government positions are fucking leeches...however, based on my experience, the vast majority of government workers work hard for their money and are pretty unappreciated for what they do...just take a look at the vile fucking comments in this thread directed at government employees and you get the idea....so all I guess I'm asking is don't fucking lump all government paid employees in the "worthless as tits on a boar" category....

What was it, exactly, that drove a person such as you that was gainfully employed in the private sector to take a $20,000 per year pay cut (counting those benefits you mentioned) to work in the public sector? Is there altruism in taking private property from people for public right-of-ways that I do not know about?

Working til four oclock in the morning to get work done finally just took its toll on me and my family.....I made a decision that my mental health was more important than fucking money...and I can honestly say I've never looked back....5 rolls around and my work stays at the office as opposed to following me home

Is the director of your department required to run your department such that it produces a profit?

that's really a pretty stupid question, because governments aren't in the business of making money, they're in the business of providing services...but he oversees a department with about a 350 million dollar budget and answers to the governor, the state legislature, and the people of the state

What if he believes that it would be better for his department to fire a third of his employees, can he take that action?

absolutely....he's been dumping people left and right...it started with part time employees, and now it's funneling it's way to short time full time employees

Does your department director have to answer to a board of directors and shareholders, who can fire him if he isn't meeting their expectations?

yep, his in an appointed position and he serves at the pleasure of the governor and the state transportation board...they can fire him without cause at anytime they want

What competitors does your department have to beat in order to succeed in its particular industry?

we complete with private sector companies in design and construction....ours is not a monopoly

Can your department ever be declared bankrupt?

no, but our budget can be slashed to the point where we can no longer provide the services people expect...I guess that's kind of like bankruptcy

When your director gets done preparing one of his awesome budgets, does he then have to go to a bank or loan committee and justify receiving the funds to finance your department's operations?

he has to go to the state legislature, who control the pocket book....banks are fucking cake compared to uninformed legislators

And if he misses his budget, does that mean bad things for the department or just a larger budget the following year? What was it that makes your department director equivalent to a CEO, again?

yeah, our budget gets fucking slashed....his responsibilities are every much as demanding as an equivalent sized company, only difference is not only do we report to brain dead legislators, we are also open to scrutiny of the general public, which a CEO is not....

[smackaholic]

if you sense some hostility in my comments, its because so many people accuse government workers of nothing more than living off the government tit and it tends to piss me off....while I'd be the first to acknowledge that some people that hold government positions are fucking leeches...however, based on my experience, the vast majority of government workers work hard for their money and are pretty unappreciated for what they do...just take a look at the vile fucking comments in this thread directed at government employees and you get the idea....so all I guess I'm asking is don't fucking lump all government paid employees in the "worthless as tits on a boar" category....

What was it, exactly, that drove a person such as you that was gainfully employed in the private sector to take a $20,000 per year pay cut (counting those benefits you mentioned) to work in the public sector? Is there altruism in taking private property from people for public right-of-ways that I do not know about?

Working til four oclock in the morning to get work done finally just took its toll on me and my family.....I made a decision that my mental health was more important than fucking money...and I can honestly say I've never looked back....5 rolls around and my work stays at the office as opposed to following me home

I'm not saying that gubmint workers are fukking leeches any more so than private sector workers, just that they, as a rule are pretty damn well paid. Sounds like you are in a profession where private sector types are worked into the fuggen ground and their high pay reflects this.

[mvscal]

The way I see it is that public sector employment is a social compact that is made where you sacrifice some earning potential with the idea of performing a public service and obtaining a certain level of income and job security in the balance.

Except you really don't sacrifice any earning potential.

[Mace]

what tod said.

mace, sounds like your wife more than earns her paycheck. if she was in ct, she'd be making a fair bit more. of course, her living expenses would be quite a bit more.

as for the 'we get a better pension deal because we sacrifice on the earning end while employed' arguement, it may have been true back in the day. it may still be true in iowa, although 63K a year sounds like a pretty fair check for keeping tabs on parolees. in ct, it is a bunch of bullshit. public sector employees earn more, on average than their private sector counterparts and their pension plans are wayyyyyy better. actually, the fact that they exist makes them better by default.

I know you weren't singling me out, smackoholic, but you made a broad generalization about public employees not paying into social security and having "fat pensions". While it may be true that public employees in CT don't pay into social security, and not receive a social security check when they retire, it's only true in 14 of the 50 states. I don't apologize for earning $63,000 a year in my job, but also keep in mind that I worked 33 years at the same job and wasn't earning anywhere near $63,000 for many of those years. You guys need to get back to me after you've worked 30+ years at the same private sector company and let me know how much you're making. I posted all of the numbers regarding my pension and, if I truly had a "fat pension", I wouldn't be substitute teaching or starting a lawn care business to make ends meet.

As for private sector jobs compared to public employees, let's use the example of cops to security guards/rent-a-cops. Police officers are highly trained, many have college degrees (at least a 2 year degree) and have to successfully complete the police academy, while I have had several of my probation/parole clients work as security guards. That should tell you all you need to know about the quality of those hired as security guards. The best security guards are usually retired cops trying to earn some money to supplement their pension or, in some circumstances, off duty cops. As for teachers, I know that Industrial Arts teachers are difficult to find because they can make far more money in the private sector. A friend of mine taught Industrial Arts for a number of years, became a school administrator to make more money, and then quit the school business to become a private contractor. He made about $75,000 as a middle school principal and doubled his income being a private contractor. I know a number of college grads with business degrees who went to work in the private sector because they could make far more money. Same with math and science majors who take jobs outside of education.

The State of Iowa cut 10% across the board from all budgets last fall, and there are more cuts on the way July 1. There are a number of schools laying off teachers/administrators, cutting sports programs and extracurriculars, and, to say the least, there are going to be a number of changes in education and government employment over the next few years.

[Felix]

I'm not saying that gubmint workers are fukking leeches any more so than private sector workers, just that they, as a rule are pretty damn well paid.

I'm pretty well compensated...but then again I've had to undergo lots of specialized training that typical state workers don't...that said, I could still make more money working in the private sector here were I willing to subject myself to the rigors I ran away from...look, for something gained there's always something lost and vice a versa.....me, the benefits I gained just far outweighed what I gave up

Sounds like you are in a profession where private sector types are worked into the fuggen ground and their high pay reflects this.

I'm a real estate appraiser by trade (and no, not a residential dink, I did commercial appraisal). Fee appraisers can make as much or as little as they want, depending largely on how much time they want to put into it...I was making some serious scratch working in the private sector, and enjoyed lots of freedom I don't have working in the government sector.....but in order to bring home lower 6 figure annual incomes, you've got to spend enormous amounts of time working....for me, my personal life was suffering and I was pretty sure I was developing ulcers from the late night, working all weekend stints I put in while doing fee work...I opted to take the government stint and while I sometimes long for the freedom I was afforded previously, I wouldn't go back....

I applied for a vice president/appraisal coordinator position at a large bank in the LA area, and they were ready to hire me.....I flew down and met with the powers that be and saw that the position would require extensive travel, late night meetings, and taking work home with me.....been there, done that and I had no desire to get back into that existence....coupled with the fact that it would have required me to live and work in LA I essentially said fuck that

[smackaholic]

I guess I should ammend my generalization of state employees.

If you are in a state job that doesn't require a lot of specialized skills, you do pretty damn well as a gubmint employee. If you have a specialized skill set that sets you apart from the average shlep, you can certainly do well in the private sector if you are willing to bust your ass for it. BTW, that contractor dude that was pulling in 150K, give or take, I'll fukkin' bet ain't making that today. He's probably happy to be working now, period.

As for what it takes to be a cop, some places can demand more than others dependent on their pay levels, but, it ain't rocket science. A high school degree and a few years active duty in the military is generally good enough. Same goes for firefighters and plenty of other jobs.

[Diego in Seattle]

As for what it takes to be a cop, some places can demand more than others dependent on their pay levels, but, it ain't rocket science. A high school degree and a few years active duty in the military is generally good enough.

To get hired....probably. But actually make it through the academy & FTO period...not so much. It takes a special breed to actually become a fully trained police officer (especially in the larger agencies). To say that anyone with a GED & military experience can become a cop is pretty ignorant.

[Mace]

As for what it takes to be a cop, some places can demand more than others dependent on their pay levels, but, it ain't rocket science. A high school degree and a few years active duty in the military is generally good enough.

To get hired....probably. But actually make it through the academy & FTO period...not so much. It takes a special breed to actually become a fully trained police officer (especially in the larger agencies). To say that anyone with a GED & military experience can become a cop is pretty ignorant.

Pretty much what I was going to say, Diego. Military experience might be enough to get you hired but cops still have to complete the academy and a shitload of training. The larger departments in Iowa prefer, if not demand, a four year degree. Definitely not like it was in the old days. Security guards? Not so much. Get the job and start the next day.

The contractor you asked about, Smackaholic, got out of the business three years ago, but not for the reasons you think. He had a wall fall on him while framing a house and nearly broke his back. His back is screwed up so bad that his doctors told him he would risk paralysis if he were to reinjure it, so he returned to being a school administrator.

[JMak]

My former municipal employer in MI required at least 90hrs of college coursework as a minimum requirement to be hired as a cop. That was about the norm throughtout SE Michigan. Applicants with military service didn't have as advantage, though they did very well when applying for Dispatcher jobs.

[Tom In VA]

I dig this quote.

Supposedy an Arabic proverb

"He that knows not, and knows not that he knows not is a fool. Shun him. He that knows not, and knows that he knows not is a pupil. Teach him. He that knows, and knows not that he knows is asleep. Wake him. He that knows, and knows that he knows is a teacher. Follow him. "

http://www.sacbee.com/2010/03/26/263434 ... z0jMXekJkO

I don't know, I haven't read the 2000 page law. You folks have and are lawyers and stuff so maybe I over-reacted.

Dinsdale's post the other day was very powerful, as many of them are when he unleashes the power of his heart and his use of the language. Best post I think I've ever read.

We've kind of dehumanized the whole notion of being humane to one another.

Anyway. "If I Had the World To Give", but I don't. Unbroken Chain.

[LTS TRN 2]

Tom, what the fuck is that train wreck? It sounds like Rummy on acid.

The maxim which you approach like a hungry white rat, nose up twitching, is this..

Those that know...know that they know;
those that don't know..don't know they don't know.

This is a blues variation of Plato's cave allegory. Notice how it applies to religious scared tea baggers, bipolar Beckers, et al...

[Tom In VA]

It was a quote from the editorial that I linked in my post. It does sound like Rummy on acid, that's probably why I liked it.

I think we have every right to be scared, the founders were scared of tyranny - they lived through it (probably even less than what we have today) and of course were well aware of its grasp on England and Europe throughout history.

The editorial was provided for people within this forum who know better than me to digest the author's take about the weak and potentially damaging aspects of the bill.

Have you finished all 2000 pages ?

[titlover]

Tom, what the fuck is that train wreck? It sounds like Rummy on acid.

The maxim which you approach like a hungry white rat, nose up twitching, is this..

Those that know...know that they know;
those that don't know..don't know they don't know.

This is a blues variation of Plato's cave allegory. Notice how it applies to religious scared tea baggers, bipolar Beckers, et al...

I do know that you don't know jack fucking shit.

that's the titlover allegory

[Terry in Crapchester]

I can't think of a single other example though other than maybe the lower ranks of the military.

How about medicine? Engineering?

Just to name a few off the top of my head.

[Roger_the_Shrubber]

Mace,

If I was Grand Poobah for a day(it's a Flintsone's reference) I would require all college graduates to work in law enforcement for 6 months.

Any liberalism in this country would die.

When one see's what humans do to one another one a daily basis........

All that needs to be said.

No excuses can be made.

Mace knows about it, as do I. He stuck with it for decades. He has earned Heaven, as far as I am concerned.

[Mikey]

When one see's what humans do to one another one a daily basis........

Yeah, the continuous misapplication of the apostrophe in this society is enough to turn just about anybody into a knuckle dragging mongoloid.

[JMak]

Or I guess we can ignore than humans are savages without the morals, traditions, and institutions to restrain that savagery.

[Mace]

Mace,

If I was Grand Poobah for a day(it's a Flintsone's reference) I would require all college graduates to work in law enforcement for 6 months.

Any liberalism in this country would die.

When one see's what humans do to one another one a daily basis........

All that needs to be said.

No excuses can be made.

Mace knows about it, as do I. He stuck with it for decades. He has earned Heaven, as far as I am concerned.

Heaven? I suspect that they will bury me 6 feet under just so I'll be closer to my eternal home. I felt fortunate to have only having to deal with the savages, and not, like Luther and police officers, having to witness their savagery first hand on the street.