Holy Quran

[poptart]

Felix, straight up, the assertion you have repeatedly made -- that Christians pick and choose from the Bible because they don't stone their rebellious children -- is ENTIRELY wack, and again, even if you're read the Bible many times over, you have certainly somehow missed a VERY fundamental foundation if this is a serious question that you need an answer to.

Even as completely goofy as the question is, I DID answer it before.

I answered this question briefly in the "How Can A Good And Loving God Permit Suffering" thread, but I will explain it in a little more depth here.


As soon as man became separated from God and went into a spiritual state of bondage to satan, God promised that He would send the Christ to resolve the problem -- the seed of the woman, Genesis 3:15.

The entirety of the Old Testament is God preparing the way for this Christ who would come.

The Old Testament happenings, God's dealings with the people, the prophets, the law, and the practices, were all moving things in preparation for this Christ who would come and solve man's fundamental problem.

In the Old Testament, God established MANY things with his people, and God required many things of his people in order to maintain them and continue to move things toward the Christ who would come.
And now when Christ came, he FINISHED everything and now EVERYTHING is in him.
Old Testament laws and practices are not now a requirement, because Christ has come, He has finished everything, and everything is in Him.


Written in Jeremiah 31 (Old Testament) --

31: Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.


Then we see in Matthew 5:17 (Jesus speaking) --

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.


Then I like this Scripture from John 5, Jesus speaking to the Pharisees, who thought they were outstanding and that they possessed LIFE because they kept the law so well --

39: Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.


ALL of the Scriptures, start to finish, are testifying to of Christ.

Because ONLY Christ can break the forces of darkness that absolutely hold mankind.






Side issue, ... sort of ... I urge ANYONE reading this to follow this Scripture trail.
Man became trapped in his fundamental problem, and this is what God has done.

Genesis 3:15
Isaiah 7:14
Galatians 4:3,4
Matthew 16:16
1 John 3:8

[poptart]

It's people like you, from both - or any - religions, that need to be exterminated, for the good of the rest of the world.

Is my belief in the Bible and my faith in Christ really that troubling to you?

Why?


If so, I think it's time to evaluate yourself, Mikey.

[battery chucka' one]

It's people like you, from both - or any - religions, that need to be exterminated, for the good of the rest of the world.

Is my belief in the Bible and my faith in Christ really that troubling to you?

Why?

If so, I think it's time to evaluate yourself, Mikey.

He fears that which he doesn't know/understand. As a result, if he doesn't know something, it must be destroyed. Very sad.

[Felix]

tart, I've brought up the numerous unfulfilled prophecies of the bible, and you're response is "you just don't get it"

when jesus said that all of the things surrounding his second coming would be fulfilled before the existing generation (now it's not said just once, but several times by several different authors of the bible) died out, this clearly was an unfulfilled prophecy....

the bible says that prophets whose prophecies are unfulfilled are false prophets and should not be believed......many of the prophecies of jesus never came to pass in the time frame he claimed they would....how would you explain that and what am I supposed to make of it?

[battery chucka' one]

tart, I've brought up the numerous unfulfilled prophecies of the bible, and you're response is "you just don't get it"

when jesus said that all of the things surrounding his second coming would be fulfilled before the existing generation (now it's not said just once, but several times by several different authors of the bible) died out, this clearly was an unfulfilled prophecy....

He was referring to the existing generation that witnessed the reformation of Israel. AKA, the times we're living in right now.

the bible says that prophets whose prophecies are unfulfilled are false prophets and should not be believed......many of the prophecies of jesus never came to pass in the time frame he claimed they would....how would you explain that and what am I supposed to make of it?

The prophecy you speak of is still in effect and will be fulfilled in the end times.

[RadioFan]

He spoke twice about "truth" in those two sentences that I noted, and there is NO truth apart from Christ.

And Christ never mentioned Islam, obviously.

But I do remember something about "love thine enemies."

I'm fairly certain there's something else in the Bible about "blessed are the peacemakers ..."

Or do those two sentiments simply not apply for someone trying to better relations between the West and the Muslim world?

[RadioFan]

He was referring to the existing generation that witnessed the reformation of Israel. AKA, the times we're living in right now.

According to whom?

You must be referring to William Miller.

"The current time IS the end times -- their is NO doubt about it" has been going on for centuries.

In the 1980s, Hal Lindsey was convinced that the Soviet Union was going to invade the Middle East and that the "end times" would begin within 40 years of the establishment of the state of Israel (a generation).

Simply shocking that he was wrong, too.

[poptart]

Felix, I gave my reply to your "unfulfilled prophecies" question/assertion earlier in this thread.
Look back at it again if you want to.

If my answer was unsatisfactory to you, ok.

As 'chucka has noted now, Jesus was speaking of the "generation" that continues on today.


RF, I'm not against peace with muslims.

I'm just not in favor of saying that their book is holy.


People say a LOT of different things, and I would never claim that either Lindsey or Miller are speaking for what ... I ... think.

Yes, people have been predicting that the 2nd coming of Christ is imminent for 2,000 years.

[RadioFan]

RF, I'm not against peace with muslims.

I'm just not in favor of saying that their book is holy.

To them is is. He was speaking to them.

Would you be offended if Iran's or (Iraq's for that matter) Ayatollah, made a speech about the "holy" Bible?

"As Jesus tells us ... "

Would it ever happen? Highly unlikely, to say the least.

What is wrong with at least trying to defuse the vitriol, if not for a few moments or days?

[poptart]

I'm not in favor of a U.S. president using vitriol while speaking to muslims overseas.

As I said, I think he should have simply said, "As the Quran tells us ..."


If the Ayatollah said, "Holy Bible," I would not have any problem with it.

It IS Holy.


I'm curious to ask you, why would you want the president to tell the muslims that their book is Holy, when he, being a Christian, understands that to be entirely FALSE.

Is he not, as a Christian, called by God to testify to the TRUTH which God has revealed to him?

Muslims are in the midst of destruction.

Do you not agree?


Acts 20:28
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.


God has purchased the Church, which B.O. has supposedly been called into, WITH HIS OWN BLOOD.

This is not a small matter.

[RadioFan]

I'm not in favor of a U.S. president using vitriol while speaking to muslims overseas.

How can it possibly be vitriol when he's reaching out?

As I said, I think he should have simply said, "As the Quran tells us ..."

Fair enough. But he went the extra mile. I'll ask you again -- do you honestly think any "leader" of the Muslim world is capable of it? Personally, I doubt it.

If the Ayatollah said, "Holy Bible," I would not have any problem with it.

It IS Holy.

As is their book, to them.

I'm curious to ask you, why would you want the president to tell the muslims that their book is Holy, when he, being a Christian, understands that to be entirely FALSE.

I didn't want the president to do or not do anything, in the context of his speech, bro. I just think it's cool that he was willing to reach out. And I don't buy into the dichotomy that you are proposing. God works in mysterious ways.

Is he not, as a Christian, called by God to testify to the TRUTH which God has revealed to him?

According to some, on the far right, he's actually a Muslim. I don't know our president, personally.

Muslims are in the midst of destruction.

Do you not agree?

I agree. I think the Muslim world, today, is entirely fucked up. Not necessarily because of their religion, but because of economics.

The rich, in that world, are funding hate. They (and the West) are reaping what they are sowing. Pretty simple, if you ask me.

Political change is needed in the Muslim world, but it starts with organized religion.

Acts 20:28
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.


God has purchased the Church, which B.O. has supposedly been called into, WITH HIS OWN BLOOD.

This is not a small matter.

You're right, it's no small matter.

Like I metioned, the day that any Muslim leader invokes Jesus or the "holy" Bible in a major speech?

Doesn't that make our president better than the so-called "leaders," in the Muslim world?

Seriously.

[poptart]

I'm curious to ask you, why would you want the president to tell the muslims that their book is Holy, when he, being a Christian, understands that to be entirely FALSE.

I didn't want the president to do or not do anything, in the context of his speech, bro. I just think it's cool that he was willing to reach out. And I don't buy into the dichotomy that you are proposing. God works in mysterious ways.

It seems you have some feeling that there is salvation apart from Jesus Christ?

[RadioFan]

It seems you have some feeling that there is salvation apart from Jesus Christ?

Huh?

No, I don't have "some feeling" about that, at all.

Nor am I "offended" by the president trying to reach out, in the spirit of peacemaker.

Hold on pop, I think within a blink of an eye, in between banning guns and free speech, not to mention being burned at the stake for reading the Bible, Obama is about to put us all in concentration camps.

Black helicopters all around me. Keeping my head bowed in silence every day, and just praying. The helicopters seem to go away after I say about 17 Hail Marys and 6 Our Fathers.

[poptart]

I'm not sure what some of those things have to do with our discussion, but I do know that you didn't answer the question.
You don't have to if you don't want to.
I'm just curious, as what you've said implies that you think there is salvation apart from Jesus Christ.

Do you think there is?


Earlier there seems to have been a little miscommunication.

You said --

What is wrong with at least trying to defuse the vitriol, if not for a few moments or days?

And I said --

I'm not in favor of a U.S. president using vitriol while speaking to muslims overseas.

And then you said --

How can it possibly be vitriol when he's reaching out?

I never said, or intended to say, that Obama used vitriol.

He didn't.


That was a stange exchange right there.

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

I stopped attending Mass after I visited Jerusalem, in 1989, for reasons I won't go into here.

You converted for some Jew broad, then she dumped your ass, am I right?

Don't worry, I've seen it before.

[Mikey]

It's people like you, from both - or any - religions, that need to be exterminated, for the good of the rest of the world.

Is my belief in the Bible and my faith in Christ really that troubling to you?

Why?


If so, I think it's time to evaluate yourself, Mikey.

Your beliefs are your own business and I really don't GARA one way or the other.
But it's hyypocritical attitudes like yours and similar "believers" on the other side, that no other system of belief has any ligitimacy whatsoever, that drive millions of people to kill each other.

You claim to be a humble believer, but in reality your arrogance is unbounded.

[poptart]

It's people like you, from both - or any - religions, that need to be exterminated, for the good of the rest of the world.

But it's hyypocritical attitudes like yours and similar "believers" on the other side, that no other system of belief has any ligitimacy whatsoever, that drive millions of people to kill each other.

I don't advocate killing anyone.

However YOU came in here and proposed just that.


You might think that over.

[Mikey]

It's people like you, from both - or any - religions, that need to be exterminated, for the good of the rest of the world.

But it's hyypocritical attitudes like yours and similar "believers" on the other side, that no other system of belief has any ligitimacy whatsoever, that drive millions of people to kill each other.

I don't advocate killing anyone.

However YOU came in here and proposed just that.


You might think that over.

I was speaking (writing) rhetorically. I'm pretty sure you knew that, but who can be sure anymore?

Anyway, you're completely ducking the issue. Why is that?

[poptart]

As best I can make out from your posts in this thread, the issue you want me to speak to is that I am hypocritical and arrogant and that the narrow attitude of people like me drives millions of other people to kill each other.



I can only speak for myself and I really can't do much to control the actions of other people.

I'll say again, I don't advocate violence and I don't advocate killing anyone over their faith, or lack thereof.


There is not much else I can say.

I'm just here to deliver the Word.

[ppanther]

This thread is bizarre.

To a Christian, no book should be considered holy except the Bible. So it struck me as strange also when Obama called the Quran holy, since he claims to be Christian. There would have been no demonstrated lack of respect if his speech had been exactly the same, without the "holy" qualifier.

Honestly, if I heard a Muslim leader call the Bible holy, I'd be more than a little confused. I'd agree, of course, but I'd wonder why a Muslim was saying it. I wouldn't be offended, I'd just be confused. I'd also not be even remotely offended if he did not call the Bible holy, because I would never expect it in the first place.

It seems like some of the people getting upset with poptart in this thread are really trying hard to find a reason to be upset. From my point of view, there is a whole bunch of misunderstanding and misplaced vitriol going on... which is interesting, considering the fact that vitriol is one of the things of which poptart is being accused.

[Mikey]

"My book is Holy. Your's is false."

Those are fighting words to a lot of people.

Honestly, if I heard a Muslim leader call the Bible holy, I'd be more than a little confused. I'd agree, of course, but I'd wonder why a Muslim was saying it. I wouldn't be offended, I'd just be confused. I'd also not be even remotely offended if he did not call the Bible holy, because I would never expect it in the first place.

Then you are easily confused. Really, I never suspected you of being so narrow minded. If you are so strong in your own faith, you ought to be strong enough to acknowledge and respect somebody else's, even if it's completely different than yours, without being threatened by it. Acknowledging that the Quran is Holy to one's hosts is not the same as denying the "Holiness" of one's own Bible.

I don't know about you or pops, but I was always taught to show respect to others and their beliefs. That's what Obama was doing. Showing respect for your host is not a sign of weakness but a sign that you know how to act properly. Just because the USA is the One Big Superpower, and even if you're the President of the United States, does not mean that you should not show respect to other countries and their leaders. The arrogance and provinciality of some people around here is really just astounding.

[ppanther]

First of all, it has nothing to do with the USA being a superpower. It's not even remotely related to the USA, period.

The m-w.com definition of holy (first entry):
exalted or worthy of complete devotion as one perfect in goodness and righteousness

I do not confuse easily, Mikey. If one believes the Bible is holy, then one cannot also believe the Quran is holy. If you can't grasp that, I'm pretty sure you're just not trying. Honestly, it's not difficult. I don't think for a minute that Obama's audience would have been offended if he had not used holy to qualify the Quran. I honestly believe it is likely that many of the Muslims to whom he was speaking were surprised that he called the Quran holy, because I'm sure they know he claims to be Christian.

I very highly doubt that a Muslim leader -- one really devoted to his faith -- would ever address the Bible as "holy" to a Christian population, and I would not view the omission as a sign of disrespect. The Bible and the Quran do not mesh, they cannot both be right. If you believe one is holy, you cannot believe the other is. Why do you think those are fighting words, Mikey? I have no desire, not even a tiny urge, to fight Muslims or any others who disagree with my beliefs. Do you not have any tolerance for those who believe differently than you? Wouldn't that make you the hypocrite in this argument?

Seriously, tolerance for all... except Christians, I guess. Really, really bizarre.

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

I very highly doubt that a Muslim leader -- one really devoted to his faith -- would ever address the Bible as "holy" to a Christian population...

You would be wrong.


Islam is the only other monotheistic religion with any reverence for the Bible and Jesus Christ.

That's why it's common for Muslims to say "peace be upon him and his mother" when refering to Jesus.

The manufactured fracture between Islam and Christianity comes wholly from that other monotheistic religion, which has absolutely zero fucking respect for Christianity. I'll let you fill in that blank.

[Felix]

I very highly doubt that a Muslim leader -- one really devoted to his faith -- would ever address the Bible as "holy" to a Christian population

you're an idiot...there are numerous Muslim scholars that have acknowledged the Bible is the holy book of Christianity and fully recognize that it is just as sacred to Christians as the Qu'ran is to Muslims

[ppanther]

Marty... they revere Christ as a prophet. They do not believe that Christ was the son of God, nor do they believe he was the Messiah. They respect him, and that's fine. But they don't believe the same thing Christians believe. I do not agree with them; that doesn't mean I want to fight them.

Felix... you think I'm an idiot? Shouldn't you be busying yourself with insisting you know the Bible better than poptart, even though you clearly don't?

I can recognize that the Quran is sacred to the Muslims. I can understand that they believe their book is holy. I can say the Quran is holy to Muslims, but I certainly cannot say it is holy to me. That should offend no one. I can believe a Muslim leader would say the Bible is holy to Christians, but certainly not to himself. Did you even hear the speech about which this thread was started? Or even a little tiny part of it?

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

I can believe a Muslim leader would say the Bible is holy to Christians, but certainly not to himself.

Yeah, behind your back they're secretly cursing your religion...



You truly are an empty vessel.

[ppanther]

I can believe a Muslim leader would say the Bible is holy to Christians, but certainly not to himself.

Yeah, behind your back they're secretly cursing your religion...



You truly are an empty vessel.

Or... maybe you just completely misunderstood what I said.

Let me rephrase, just to make sure we're clear.

I can believe a Muslim leader would say the Bible is considered holy by Christians; in other words, the book is holy to Christians. But he would not say the book is considered holy by himself; in other words, the book is not holy to him.

I can see why you got confused, but still think it took effort on your part to get that way...

[Mikey]

Let me rephrase, just to make sure we're clear.

I can believe a Muslim leader would say the Bible is considered holy by Christians; in other words, the book is holy to Christians. But he would not say the book is considered holy by himself; in other words, the book is not holy to him.

LOL...yes perfectly clear.

Holy shit. Talk in circles much?

How can a book be holy to one person and not holy to another? According to you there is only one holy book, and it is absolutely holy. All others are unholy no matter who thinks they are holy.

[War Wagon]

Egads, I really need to avoid clicking on the theology forum because as I've said before:

It's where atheists go to disprove the existance of God... because they are people of faith.

Oh well, here I am, better late than never. Damn you ppanther... I never would have even clicked on this thread if I hadn't seen you had the last post, so I was curious what your take was. I mean, I pretty much already know what 'tart and Felix are going to type in their endless debate.

But when I came across this, I just have to comment...

I was born and raised Roman Catholic and attended Catholic grade schools and graduated from a Catholic high school....be as skeptical as you'd like, but the fact is that I've been inundated with the bible all of my life, I've read it so many times I can't count....

Jim, same here in that I was born and raised Catholic and went to Catholic schools up until 10th grade. Your probably like me in that when I got old enough to make my own decisions, I seriously rebelled against having that crap shoved down my throat any longer. The whole stand, kneel, sit routine during mass, confession, Holy Communion, the stations of the cross... are you freaking kidding me? Simply horrible, ritualistic nonsense and I swore I'd never go back. And I haven't for the most part, except for weddings and funerals and this one time on Easter just to humor my mother.

But I never really read the Bible with an open, seeking heart and and mind, until many years later. It wasn't until I sincerely wanted to hear the message, that I actually got the message.

If you really have read the Bible as much as you say, I'm wondering what your motivation to do so was. As has been said, Catholic priests at Mass pretty much read it to you, and you're just supposed to swallow it. I was never made to read the Bible, not much anyway. And if I were, obviously I wouldn't have gotten much out of it.

So if you've read it when you weren't being made to read it, seems your only motivation was in seeing how many holes you could poke in it. You fancy yourself educated and enlightened and waay to smart to be duped by any of that Bible nonsense. But you have to take it one step further for some reason. You have to prove to everyone who might actually get something of value from the Bible that they are ignorant rubes and go to great, interminable lengths to do so.

Why is that?

Is it not enough for you to simply wash your hands of what you don't believe in and go your merry way?

Are you hoping to convince anyone and everyone that believes in the Bible in even the most minute amount that they are full of shit?

Or are YOU hoping to be convinced different?

See, I get 'tarts motivation and respect him for it. He's doing what Christ commands. Go forth and spread the word.

I don't get your motivation, unless it's just to be a contrarian assboil with nothing but time on his hands to waste on another multi-page abortion of a thread that accomplishes nothing.

[ppanther]

Let me rephrase, just to make sure we're clear.

I can believe a Muslim leader would say the Bible is considered holy by Christians; in other words, the book is holy to Christians. But he would not say the book is considered holy by himself; in other words, the book is not holy to him.

LOL...yes perfectly clear.

Holy shit. Talk in circles much?

How can a book be holy to one person and not holy to another? According to you there is only one holy book, and it is absolutely holy. All others are unholy no matter who thinks they are holy.

Are you kidding me?? I posted the definition of holy, which words confused you? How was what I said circular in any way?

I am Christian. I've never hid that fact. I believe the Bible. As such, I cannot believe the Quran. It is not possible to believe both. I cannot say the Quran is holy to me, because it simply is not. Clearly, you're so caught up in the currently popular "I'm OK, you're OK" mentality that you assume someone with an actual opinion must hate everyone who disagrees with it. You're dead wrong, but I can't imagine you admitting that any time soon. I find it stunning that you don't see where the real hostility lies.

[War Wagon]

^^^

<--- Likes this firey one.

Post more, read less.

[Felix]

Felix... you think I'm an idiot?

well if you continue to make idiotic statements like that, what conclusion am I left too.

Shouldn't you be busying yourself with insisting you know the Bible better than poptart, even though you clearly don't?

You may need to reread what I said....I certainly never said I knew the bible better that tart, but what I did say is that I've probably read it as much as he has....we just look at things in the bible differently...he thinks it's the word of god and I think it's the made up words of bronze age goat herders that thought the universe revolved around the,

let me ask you a serious question: why do you suppose that god/jesus decided to show up and hold minion over clearly what was the single most backwards place on the face of the earth at the time....why didn't he appear to the Chinese, that had the skills to write and record history....instead, he chose the most ignorant people on the planet to choose to chat with

I can recognize that the Quran is sacred to the Muslims. I can understand that they believe their book is holy. I can say the Quran is holy to Muslims, but I certainly cannot say it is holy to me.

that's all Obama said is that it was a holy book....he didn't say it was a holy book to him, he simply said it was a holy book....why you people insist on reading more shit into a statement than is manifestly evident is beyond me.....

That should offend no one. I can believe a Muslim leader would say the Bible is holy to Christians, but certainly not to himself. Did you even hear the speech about which this thread was started? Or even a little tiny part of it?

Maybe you can quote me the part of Obama's speech wherein he said the Qu'ran was holy to him....I've watched the speech a couple of times and I must have missed that part

[poptart]

Felix,

ppuma, BCO, or whoever, can articulate their own takes, which they have done well, but I want to one more time try to tell you why ... I ... balked at the "holy" reference.

The last thing Jesus told His disciples is recorded in Matthew 28, and if it was THE LAST Words He had to say to them, it might mean it's pretty important stuff --

Matthew 28:16-20
16: Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
17: And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
18: And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19: Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Christ told them that He has all power and that they should now go and teach all of the world about Him.

Why is it critically important for the world to know about Christ?

Mankind went into destruction, CERTAIN destruction, in Genesis 3.

God gave the solution at that time ---> Genesis 3:15

Isaiah 7:14 ---> Galatians 4:3,4 ---> Matthew 16:16 ---> 1 John 3:8

Christ is the only thing that works to bring someone out of their certain destruction.

Those who know about the Bible recognize this.
Those who were in Mark's upper room knew the conclusion of Christ, because they knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that He was indeed ... THE Christ.

It would be the height of absurdity for anyone from Mark's upper room to walk around and talk about anything other than the Christ.
These people went to horrific deaths (upside down crucifixion, etc) because they insisted that it is critically important that people MUST realize that Jesus is the Christ, and to trust in Him.

Certainly nobody from Mark's upper room would walk around and make inferences to people who are in the midst of destruction that an ideology that they are holding on to is ... holy.

Over time, the fervor and FOCUS of those who were in Mark's upper room diminished.
"Christianity" became very much a religion rather than a simple faith, because the message became diluted and mixed with idologies of the world.

And clearly to this day, we have "Christians" who are of some misunderstanding that there is some solution apart from Christ.
And some are of the misunderstanding that whatever "religion" one believes in, it is fine, so long as they believe well.

Islam, Buddhism, ... or whatever, are all paths to meet God, so they mistakenly think.

A hypothetical person from Mark's upper room could not stand up and speak to a group of muslims, who they recognize are in the midst of destruction, and make a comment (even just in passing) that their book or ideology is holy.

I'm certainly not saying that the president needs to stand and openly proselytize to these people, but he ought not perpetuate their failure by pouring coals upon their burning head.


As I said before, it's gonna be very hard for a Christian to be the president in this PC day and age we live in.

[Felix]

Islam, Buddhism, ... or whatever, are all paths to meet God, so they mistakenly think.

and people wonder why I think christians are singularly the most arogant religioists that walk the face of the earth...statements like this are why....so, you never did respond to the question I asked regarding why god/jesus decided to show up to the singluarly most backwards people that walked the face of the earth when he decided to show up? If he'd shown up to the Chinese, there'd be little dispute that he actually appeared, because the Chinese were very enlightened people that kept a pretty comprehensive history...instead, he chose to show up to a bunch of people about a week removed from the stone age.....remarkable

they also believe theirs is the way to enlightenment.....why you think christians have some special stairway to heaven is beyond me

[poptart]

and people wonder why I think christians are singularly the most arogant religioists that walk the face of the earth...statements like this are why....

I can imagine someone barking at Simon Peter, as he hung crucified upside down for insisting that people PLEASE realize that Jesus is the promised Christ.

Person: "You, S. Peter, are the singularly most arrogant individual to walk the face of the earth!!!"


Felix, I can't say that I can absolutely answer that question that you have without blending in some speculation of my own (apart from Scripture), so I will abstain other than to say that God called Abraham and promised that Christ would come through him.

Abraham didn't live in China. haha


As I've said to you before, I have questions too, and the Bible surely does not tell us everything we might be curious to know about.

[ppanther]

Felix... you think I'm an idiot?

well if you continue to make idiotic statements like that, what conclusion am I left too.

I'm really not into "smack" these days, so I'm not really going to say anything about this. Well, maybe I'll just say that it reminds me of when people misspell the easy words when attempting spelling smack.

You may need to reread what I said....I certainly never said I knew the bible better that tart, but what I did say is that I've probably read it as much as he has....

Actually, you said you'd probably read it more times than he had. And really, that implies that you know it better. Unless you're admitting that you've read it a whole bunch of times, but still don't know it better than someone who's "probably" read it less... quite a backpedal there, Felix!

let me ask you a serious question: why do you suppose that god/jesus decided to show up and hold minion over clearly what was the single most backwards place on the face of the earth at the time....why didn't he appear to the Chinese, that had the skills to write and record history....instead, he chose the most ignorant people on the planet to choose to chat with

Sorry, but that's not a serious question. poptart answered it anyway, and answered it well enough for your purposes.

Honestly Felix, you can stop whining about Christian arrogance any time now. You think you can second-guess God about where He chose his Son to be born. You whine constantly about how you don't think God's a very nice person, because heaven forbid there be a little pain in the world. You are the one who thinks he's "too smart" to accept the Bible... a book that an enormous number of genuinely smart people have accepted and believed, even in modern times. You are about as hypocritical a person as I've ever seen.

[Felix]

I'm really not into "smack" these days, so I'm not really going to say anything about this. Well, maybe I'll just say that it reminds me of when people misspell the easy words when attempting spelling smack.

look, you implied that it was some sort of mistake for Obama to cite the Qu'ran as a holy book, and I said that was idiotic.....to the 1.5 or so billion Muslims in the world that is their holy book...now you might not agreee that it is, and I doubt that Obama believes it's a holy book based on his beliefs.....but I see nothing wrong with acknowledging that it's a holy book to a whole shitload of people....

Actually, you said you'd probably read it more times than he had. And really, that implies that you know it better. Unless you're admitting that you've read it a whole bunch of times, but still don't know it better than someone who's "probably" read it less... quite a backpedal there, Felix!

and I probably have....I just don't read it with the same fervor that hell on wheels christians like tart do....to him (and a lot of other zealot christians), every word, every sylable, every colloquialism, every "miracle", is the absolute unerring word of god and I simply can't compete with that.....I read it more in the manner of a fairy tale with stories about dragons, and unicorns, wars with torture and rape thrown in for good measure.....I'm not backpedalling in the least, but to talk rationally to anyone so caught up in the "unerring bible" is equivalent to talking to a brick wall.....

Honestly Felix, you can stop whining about Christian arrogance any time now. You think you can second-guess God about where He chose his Son to be born.

sure I can-why not set him down among people that could adequately document his life and concisely convey the message "he" brings....instead, he decides that it would best serve him to appear to bronze age goatherders with the intellectual capacity just slightly above the goats they herded....yeah, makes perfect sense to me....

You whine constantly about how you don't think God's a very nice person, because heaven forbid there be a little pain in the world.

he's not a nice (person, being, whatever)...he inflicts torture on animals needlessly, he kills with reckless abandon for the most petty offenses, he destroys entire civilizations at the drop of a hat, he murders innocent children, he destroyed everything on earth because he was pissed off.....if not a giant prick, how would you describe someone that acted like that

You are the one who thinks he's "too smart" to accept the Bible... a book that an enormous number of genuinely smart people have accepted and believed, even in modern times. You are about as hypocritical a person as I've ever seen.

this is an argument from authority and not a very good one....."see, this really smart person accepts that god is real so you should too"....it's an inane argument that's usually used as a last resort....

I've said this before and I'll repeat it to you
A long time ago, very smart people used to believe in all types of gods-Zeus, Thor, Apollo, Eros, Aphrodite, Baccus, Cupid, Venus, etc.

nobody believes in them anymore and I'm assuming you're one of those...... so you're almost as big an atheist as I am.....you just happen to believe in 1 god that I don't...that's the difference

[ppanther]

look, you implied that it was some sort of mistake for Obama to cite the Qu'ran as a holy book, and I said that was idiotic.....to the 1.5 or so billion Muslims in the world that is their holy book...now you might not agreee that it is, and I doubt that Obama believes it's a holy book based on his beliefs.....but I see nothing wrong with acknowledging that it's a holy book to a whole shitload of people....

Well, that's not terribly surprising. You don't consider anything holy, so why would it affect you? Why would you presume to understand how it would affect someone who does consider one book holy?

and I probably have....

Unlikely.

I'm not backpedalling in the least

You started by saying you probably read the Bible more than poptart has, then you admitted his knowledge was superior and said you never said you knew more, just that you'd probably read it as much as he had. Yes, Felix, that is a major backpedal.

sure I can-why not set him down among people that could adequately document his life and concisely convey the message "he" brings....instead, he decides that it would best serve him to appear to bronze age goatherders with the intellectual capacity just slightly above the goats they herded....yeah, makes perfect sense to me....

What always amuses me about atheists such as yourself is that you think you're smarter than God. If you are willing to pursue hypothetical questions regarding God and His intentions, you should assume that He would be not only smarter than you, but on a completely different plane of understanding. Ya know, He created you. You would not be His intellectual equal, not even close.

he's not a nice (person, being, whatever)...he inflicts torture on animals needlessly, he kills with reckless abandon for the most petty offenses, he destroys entire civilizations at the drop of a hat, he murders innocent children, he destroyed everything on earth because he was pissed off.....if not a giant prick, how would you describe someone that acted like that

You could always ask that about the humans who do the same things, currently. Ya know, the humans who have built-in morals because it makes for peaceful civilizations. The humans who in this very country inflict torture on animals, kill with reckless abandon, murder innocent children... where are their built-in (non-God-related, of course) morals? Why are you whining about God doing those things, given that you don't believe in Him anyway, and doing nothing about humans doing them in this present time?

this is an argument from authority and not a very good one....."see, this really smart person accepts that god is real so you should too"....it's an inane argument that's usually used as a last resort....

Oh, that's interesting. You're determining it's a last resort, which is usually a last resort of someone reaching in an argument. The fact is, you spend a lot of time trying to prove you're too smart to believe in God. I simply stated that a lot of people smarter than you do and have believed in God. It's a perfectly good argument, given your typical posture.

so you're almost as big an atheist as I am.....you just happen to believe in 1 god that I don't...that's the difference

Um... Felix... I believe in God. That doesn't make any kind of atheist, let alone "almost as big an atheist" as you. Sorry.

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

The humans who in this very country inflict torture on animals, kill with reckless abandon, murder innocent children...

Why do you hate the troops?

[Felix]

Well, that's not terribly surprising. You don't consider anything holy, so why would it affect you? Why would you presume to understand how it would affect someone who does consider one book holy?

It doesn't affect me in the least....but what it does is effect the way our country is percieved by the outside world. Obama is simply trying to convince these people that we (as a nation) are not against Islam (personally, I have no gripe about any religion just so long as it doesn't have an affect on me) that we're against the people that have corrupted the Qu'ran to justify blowing up other Muslims and instilling terror in people that don't believe exactly as they do.....now, if you think he'd been better off saying, "well, we think your beliefs are full of shit, but their your beliefs so as we say in the states live and let live", then your seriously deluded about how seriously Muslims take their religion. You think christians are fervent? They don't hold a candle to the zealotry of Muslims...not even close.

Unlikely.

Alright, you've already said you don't believe me 4 different times....you don't need to repeat yourself....

You started by saying you probably read the Bible more than poptart has, then you admitted his knowledge was superior and said you never said you knew more, just that you'd probably read it as much as he had. Yes, Felix, that is a major backpedal.

what, you think being able to cite verses from the Bible makes you some sort of biblical scholar? I can cite verses from the Qu'ran, but that certainly doesn't make me an expert at it....pops is a fervent christian that reads more into it than I do....to me, it's simply fairy tales...to tart, it's the word of god.

What always amuses me about atheists such as yourself is that you think you're smarter than God. If you are willing to pursue hypothetical questions regarding God and His intentions, you should assume that He would be not only smarter than you, but on a completely different plane of understanding. Ya know, He created you. You would not be His intellectual equal, not even close.

what always amuses me about people like you is that you change the subject when I start mentioning the destruction of civilizations, the random killing of innocent children, the enslavement and torture of captured civilizations, rape. pillaging and plungering...it's all in there and yet christians are always simply incapable of addressing the questions people like me bring up....usually resorting to something along the line of "God had some plan" which of course included murdering innocents, destroying civilizations, enslaving and raping women, etc.....all in the name of god....some loving fucking god you've got there.

You could always ask that about the humans who do the same things, currently.

what the fuck does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

Ya know, the humans who have built-in morals because it makes for peaceful civilizations. The humans who in this very country inflict torture on animals, kill with reckless abandon, murder innocent children... where are their built-in (non-God-related, of course) morals? Why are you whining about God doing those things, given that you don't believe in Him anyway, and doing nothing about humans doing them in this present time?

morality doesn't come from god, sorry to be the one to break this to you....morality comes from a civilizations need to survive...how would you explain the fact that murder is considered evil in every civilization known to man...not just christian civilizations, but EVERY civilization.....

Oh, that's interesting. You're determining it's a last resort, which is usually a last resort of someone reaching in an argument. The fact is, you spend a lot of time trying to prove you're too smart to believe in God. I simply stated that a lot of people smarter than you do and have believed in God. It's a perfectly good argument, given your typical posture.

It's a terrible argument and why you can't see that speaks volumes about your ability to reason....I can provide you with just as many really really smart people that the concept of god is some sort of figment of man's imagination...but I wouldn't resort to using their arguments, I argue from my own perspective and resorting to the whole "lots of smart people believe in God" is a total fucking cop out....

so you're almost as big an atheist as I am.....you just happen to believe in 1 god that I don't...that's the difference

Um... Felix... I believe in God. That doesn't make any kind of atheist, let alone "almost as big an atheist" as you. Sorry.

but lots of smart people used to believe in Zeus, but you don't believe in him...therefore, when it comes to Zeus you're an atheist-maybe you should look up what the term atheist means before you claim not to be one....