Have we hit bottom yet?

[War Wagon]

401k Wagon checking in... and pretty much decimated. I've lost over a third of my retirement savings (that it's taken me 20 years to build) in the past year, and that's not counting the 5% of my wages and matching 50% (supposedly) that my company contributes... just thrown down a fucking rathole...

....while AIG execs party at a retreat on my fucking dime. There needs to be a :brad: emoticon with steam coming off it's head. I'm ready to go kill some motherfuckers.

So serious question here before I go punching more holes in the drywall... when does this freefall end?

I'm ready to move whatever I have left into the fixed account that is currently returning a whopping .12% before I lose it all.

I'm ready to march into the finance office at work tomorrow and stop any further deductions from my paycheck.

But knowing my luck, the next day or week the markets will rebound and I'll be eating shit sammitches.

But goddamnit, I've been patient waiting for this rollercoaster ride to end and I'm this >< close to saying fuck it and jump off.

Anybody here that can give me a reason to come off this ledge, I'm listening. But I'm tired of getting fucked raw dog style up the ass w/o even the courtesy of a reacharound.

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

Save the last bullet for yourself.

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

I'm not kidding.

[RumpleForeskin]

Three critical mistakes by investors is what leads to people panicking and out a shitload of money:

-Concentration Risk
-Improper Correlation
-Misguided Diversification

8 asset types out there to be invested in and speculators are usually only invested in one or two.

A properly correlated portfolio witll have a cancelling reaction to a market like this.

Correlation of Stocks and Bonds from 1926 - 1969 was -.02. Really nice. Ever since then, the correlation has gone unstable with the range from 1970-2005 being .38 to .80.

[War Wagon]

Save the last bullet for yourself.

I sold my guns, but I'm still biting on that bullet.

[War Wagon]

And Martard?

GFY.

I'm not kidding.

[poptart]

Wagon, when do you need your retirement money?
How many years from now?

The error, imo, is jerking in and out of the market, because people usually do the wrong thing.

You should have left your money invested and not done anything.
You'd still have the very same number of shares.
Then you just simply wait for the market to rebound ... which it will.

Long view.

If I was you I would get back in the market fully and just wait.

No more holes in the wall.

[Derron]

I've lost over a third of my retirement savings (that it's taken me 20 years to build) in the past year, and that's not counting the 5% of my wages and matching 50% (supposedly) that my company contributes... just thrown down a fucking rathole...

And let me guess here...your 401K is entirely invested in your employers stock ??

I'm ready to go kill some motherfuckers.

Nicceee... just like that dude is SO Cal..can't take the heat so you off your family and your self....Can't you and Todd have a "trigger pulling " party together....

So serious question here before I go punching more holes in the drywall... when does this freefall end

When the market finds bottom moron...try not to start beating the wife kids and dog....oh my bad..dog is already dead...

I'm ready to move whatever I have left into the fixed account that is currently returning a whopping .12% before I lose it all.

Brilliant financial move there...you should be able to beat a 2% inflation rate with that move...

I'm ready to march into the finance office at work tomorrow and stop any further deductions from my paycheck.

But knowing my luck, the next day or week the markets will rebound and I'll be eating shit sammitches.

And you expect to gain all that back in a few days / weeks/months ? Bwwaaahaaa

But goddamnit, I've been patient waiting for this rollercoaster ride to end and I'm this >< close to saying fuck it and jump off.

make sure the roller coaster is a its apex height, preferably over 100 feet so you are assured of instant death and do not drag society down with care for your vegetable ass...

Anybody here that can give me a reason to come off this ledge, I'm listening. But I'm tired of getting fucked raw dog style up the ass w/o even the courtesy of a reacharound.

NOOOOO.... do not come offf JUMP NOWWWW... :D :D :D :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

And tired of getting fucked dog style up the ass???.....hell ,you been getting fucked dog style in the ass, in the mouth, in the ear every time you post on this board for what.....the last 6 years or better ??

A little financial dry fucking should be the least of your concern.....jump now.....

[Moby Dick]

I'm not kidding.

i'd save my bullet for my rep. that voted for the bill.

[MuchoBulls]

I'm not kidding.

i'd save my bullet for my rep. that voted for the bill.

You can have mine if you needed more for your state senator(s).

[Arch Angel]

17k and counting for the year, but things are looking up, so say me to the wife.

[BSmack]

I'm ready to move whatever I have left into the fixed account that is currently returning a whopping .12% before I lose it all.

Wow, our stable value funds return a guaranteed rate every year. This years guaranteed rate was 4.5%. Which is why a couple of months ago I moved everything into the stable value fund. When shit calms down I'll get back into the stock funds. What kind of employee savings plan offers a fund returning .12% as a fixed account? Sheesh.

[KC Scott]

We should be near a bottom - but I thought that last week.

Now earnings season started we'll get some upthrust.

Again, only My Op - or you can just do the tart Ostrich thing and hope when you retire it's at the top.

[poptart]

Now earnings season started we'll get some upthrust.

Now that the ink has dried on the bailout bill, Mr U.S. Citizen will get some upthrust


Sincerely,

The people's representatives

[BSmack]

Now earnings season started we'll get some upthrust.

We get lots of upthrust every Friday night.

sin

[dotdotdot]

They look like power bottoms.

[Nishlord]

401k Wagon checking in... and pretty much decimated. I've lost over a third of my retirement savings (that it's taken me 20 years to build) in the past year, and that's not counting the 5% of my wages and matching 50% (supposedly) that my company contributes... just thrown down a fucking rathole...

....while AIG execs party at a retreat on my fucking dime. There needs to be a :brad: emoticon with steam coming off it's head. I'm ready to go kill some motherfuckers.

So serious question here before I go punching more holes in the drywall... when does this freefall end?

I'm ready to move whatever I have left into the fixed account that is currently returning a whopping .12% before I lose it all.

I'm ready to march into the finance office at work tomorrow and stop any further deductions from my paycheck.

But knowing my luck, the next day or week the markets will rebound and I'll be eating shit sammitches.

But goddamnit, I've been patient waiting for this rollercoaster ride to end and I'm this >< close to saying fuck it and jump off.

Anybody here that can give me a reason to come off this ledge, I'm listening. But I'm tired of getting fucked raw dog style up the ass w/o even the courtesy of a reacharound.

Well, seeing as you most likely voted for it, have propped it up over the years, and didn't mind other people elsewhere living in shitty conditions so you could have a living far beyond what you deserved, my advice is to shut the fuck up.

[Whitey]

I feel your pain. I don't think it is over.

Asian stocks plunge nearly 10%

I have also lost nearly 35% of all of my retirement savings. Thank God, I still have a few more years....

I have converted most of my Mutual funds to cash accounts. I appreciate Fidelity and TSP for the transferrability.
(I can easily get back into the old funds when the tide turns a bit)

I still have some mutual funds and stocks that I expect to continue to plummet thanks to the need to diversify and the fact that these accounts are not so liquid..

This is scary. These are scary times.

It won't be long before We start seriously talking DEPRESSION.

reference to .. THE GREAT DEPRESSION



I wonder how this country's first black President will handle this mess??

[Cuda]

the fact that the Limeys aren't still living in the rubble from the Blitz is proof that they're living far beyond what they deserve

[Tom In VA]

my advice is to shut the fuck up.

Good. Follow it then.

[Jerkovich]

Ya, things are just starting, so hold on to your shorts and dump your stocks.

This is just the tip of the iceberg. Nice thing is, we will survive this, but European and Asian leaches will fall harder and longer.

[Y2K]

Hey Nish...Glad that your tax money is in this thing to. Looks as though you Brits are in the shit as deep as we are. The Stock market is just a part of this mess and it's not over yet.
My concern comes when either McCorkey or Osama as well as Congress realize the huge shortfall of Tax Revenue to the Treasury after Business and Taxpayers write down Billions in losses while trying to lead a Nation with Trillions in debt, recapitalizeing with paper money, prints even more paper to fund services it can't possibly afford. Next year should be quite a hoot watching the Feds melt down. Hang on to your hat.

[PSUFAN]

whoa! Rack 88

[Mikey]

Unless you believe that the entire US economy is going to disintegrate into total anarchy and you're dumping your 401K completely, this is the absolute WORST time to be pulling out (buy high and sell low?).

[Tom In VA]

There a lot of intangibles associated with the economy. A "self-fullfilled" prophecy of sorts might just be underway. At the foundation of any economy is TRUST.

That trust has been violated and has been replaced by fear and uncertainty. Uncertainty that is typically felt around election time has been exacerbated by the housing market collapse.

When Obama wins and further socializes our economy the stock market and stuff will rebound.

There's really nothing to worry about. "A chicken in every pot" and the Fed will take care of us.


Spend what you have and invest heartily.

[Mikey]

Tom, I'm glad you've finally come around.

How does it feel to be assimilated into the collective?

[Tom In VA]

Tom, I'm glad you've finally come around.

How does it feel to be assimilated into the collective?

Sleepy.

I feel an urge to watch American Idol, "E", and work to earn money to send my son off to the last bastion of pure Capitalism that will remain - Universities - so he can learn all about the value and moral supremecy of Socialism.

I guess you truly can't fight City Hall.

There's liberation in surrender.

[War Wagon]

Bummer for you, Wags. But you only have yourself to blame. Don't forget that.

See, you would have been happy as a pig in shit if the market went up 35% and you were able to sell your equities and realize that gain. But it didn't and you didn't. You gambled your money, and you lost. Plain and simple. No one stole money from you. You shoved it in the market, crossed your fingers and hoped that it would go up at a greater rate than you could get in a safer investment, and you got burned. I guarantee your savings plan has a money market fund, a bond fund and other places where you could have put your investments.

I feel bad for you. I really do. And I feel bad for the millions of others who are getting crushed by the downward trending market. Its a shame. But you shouldn't have been there in the first place, and you know it.

But don't take the risk and then cry like a bitch when your gamble turns out to be a losing one.

My 401k is managed by The Hartford. Below is a screenprint copy of the investment options and past performance, which is a little tough to read in this format. But basically it shows that not one of funds has done worth a crap over the past year and most have in fact totally shit the bed, including the "safe" bond funds you alluded to.

So for all those saying you shoulda' diversified, yadda, yadda, yadda... I fucking did, and it didn't fucking matter. I've moved that money every quarter trying to go with the least risky investment or crap for return.

So 88, I didn't have a lot of options, unless I quit my job and drew it all out (and take the tax hit penalty) or quit contributing to it thus losing my employers matching funds. What the hell could I have done different? And don't say the money market, because if that's the best return available, stuffing it under the freaking mattress makes more sense.

Total Return Average Annual Total Return
Investment Choice Morningstar Category Month Qtr YTD 1 Yr. 3 Yr. 5 Yr. 10 Yr. SI Inception

Specialty
AIM Real Estate Specialty-Real Estate -1.57% 2.11% -1.43% -14.48% 5.76% 14.27% 13.64% N/A 12/31/96
MFS Utilities Specialty-Utilities -16.37% -24.11% -25.70% -22.21% 6.61% 15.68% 7.91% N/A 02/14/92
Seligman Global Tech Specialty-Technology -14.99% -14.48% -22.55% -23.58% 2.81% 5.68% N/A 8.84% 05/23/94

International/Global
AIM European Growth Europe Stock -13.85% -20.28% -31.34% -31.90% 3.90% 14.08% 11.18% N/A 11/03/97
Janus Adv Intl Grwth Foreign Large Growth -20.62% -24.29% -31.01% -31.03% 11.04% 17.80% 10.52% N/A 05/02/94
Pioneer Emerg Mkts Diversified Emerging Mkts -20.02% -30.52% -38.92% -36.03% 8.71% 17.88% 14.41% N/A 06/23/94
Thornburg Intl Value Foreign Large Blend -10.65% -17.08% -27.97% -27.90% 6.45% 13.20% 12.36% N/A 05/28/98

Small Cap
Alger SmCap Gr Inst Small Growth -13.45% -12.13% -25.91% -25.88% 0.61% 8.44% N/A 12.25% 11/08/93
Franklin SC Value Small Value -7.42% -5.12% -8.00% -13.80% 1.77% 10.73% 9.69% N/A 03/11/96
LM Prt SC Grwth Small Growth -13.74% -11.27% -16.30% -17.08% 0.85% 7.80% 10.82% N/A 07/01/98

Mid Cap
Alger MC Growth Inst Mid-Cap Growth -19.77% -27.20% -38.78% -36.63% -3.25% 4.24% 8.63% N/A 11/08/93
AmCent Vista Mid-Cap Growth -17.58% -24.47% -30.86% -28.36% 1.23% 8.05% 10.06% N/A 11/25/83
Victory Spec Val Mid-Cap Blend -15.90% -19.41% -23.55% -24.73% 0.45% 10.03% N/A 9.63% 12/03/93

Large Cap
Alger Captl App Inst Large Growth -15.87% -18.08% -28.38% -25.26% 4.90% 8.24% 6.26% N/A 11/08/93
AllianceBern Growth Large Growth -13.64% -14.63% -26.54% -27.43% -5.11% 2.73% -0.15% N/A 09/04/90
AF Fnd In Large Blend -11.91% -15.28% -21.81% -22.76% 2.14% 8.58% 6.30% N/A 08/01/78
AF New Economy Large Growth -10.85% -12.17% -26.11% -28.29% -0.03% 5.27% 3.43% N/A 12/01/83
Ivy Large Cap Growth Large Growth -11.33% -11.67% -22.19% -19.60% 3.26% 6.81% N/A 1.93% 06/30/00
Janus Adv Forty Large Growth -18.72% -25.07% -25.40% -20.16% 4.08% 10.13% 7.85% N/A 05/01/97
Oppen Main St Opp Large Blend -10.51% -12.28% -21.13% -25.58% -1.59% 4.87% N/A 4.27% 09/25/00
The Htfd Cap App Large Blend -14.95% -19.91% -27.07% -27.00% 1.37% 9.68% 12.25% N/A 07/22/96
Thornburg Value Large Blend -10.70% -12.77% -25.04% -29.55% -0.19% 4.73% 6.11% N/A 10/02/95
Asset Allocation/Balanced
BlckRck Gl Alloctn World Allocation -7.90% -12.25% -14.16% -12.13% 5.72% 10.00% 10.74% N/A 10/21/94
Franklin TempConsTgt Conservative Allocation -4.63% -5.23% -8.73% -8.74% 3.20% 5.21% 5.64% N/A 12/31/96
Franklin Tmpl Gr Tgt Moderate Allocation -8.88% -10.18% -17.53% -18.73% 2.00% 6.61% 5.73% N/A 12/31/96
Franklin TempModTgt Moderate Allocation -6.27% -7.06% -12.06% -12.59% 2.91% 5.92% 5.84% N/A 12/31/96
The Htfd Balanc Aloc Moderate Allocation -8.49% -10.56% -16.16% -16.27% 1.09% N/A N/A 3.63% 04/30/04
The Htfd Tgt Ret2010 Target-Date 2000-2014 -8.59% -10.72% -14.42% -14.57% 0.24% N/A N/A 0.24% 09/30/05
The Htfd Tgt Ret2020 Target-Date 2015-2029 -9.69% -12.17% -17.56% -18.05% -0.09% N/A N/A -0.09% 09/30/05
The Htfd Tgt Ret2030 Target-Date 2030+ -10.22% -12.74% -19.52% -20.26% -0.43% N/A N/A -0.43% 09/30/05

Bond
Goldman Sachs GovInc Intermediate Government -0.01% 0.13% 0.87% 3.99% 3.88% 3.37% 4.56% N/A 02/10/93
Oppen Intntl Bond World Bond -5.11% -6.88% -3.72% -0.40% 5.51% 8.49% 10.24% N/A 06/15/95
PIMCO Real Return Inflation-Protected Bond -6.20% -5.94% -1.88% 3.10% 2.57% 3.93% 6.69% N/A 01/29/97
Pioneer High Yield High Yield Bond -9.71% -11.54% -13.24% -14.43% 0.65% 3.66% 10.32% N/A 02/12/98

Stable Value/Money Market
The Htfd Money Mkt N/A 0.12% 0.41% 1.58% 2.65% 3.84% 2.88% 3.23% N/A 07/22/96

[BSmack]

My 401k is managed by The Hartford. Below is a screenprint copy of the investment options and past performance, which is a little tough to read in this format. But basically it shows that not one of funds has done worth a crap over the past year and most have in fact totally shit the bed, including the "safe" bond funds you alluded to.

So for all those saying you shoulda' diversified, yadda, yadda, yadda... I fucking did, and it didn't fucking matter. I've moved that money every quarter trying to go with the least risky investment or crap for return.

So 88, I didn't have a lot of options, unless I quit my job and drew it all out (and take the tax hit penalty) or quit contributing to it thus losing my employers matching funds. What the hell could I have done different? And don't say the money market, because if that's the best return available, stuffing it under the freaking mattress makes more sense.

This is the kind of crap Bush and McCain want to do with Social Security. Still want 4 more years?

[RumpleForeskin]

There is no such thing as a sure-fire investment strategy.

That may be true, but there are strategies out there that significantly reduce market volitility within your portfolio while still being invested into assets. Proper diversification won't completely eliminate the exposure to a bear market of this nature, but it will protect the potfolio from being completely AP'd.

Like I said, proper correlation to a portfolio will cause your assets performance to cancel each other out during a time like this.

I am part of the program. I'm not sweating it because I am properly correlated with my portfolio.

On the other hand, we've got a few reps who have refused to adopt our entire portfolio management style and they are the ones ready to leap from tall buildings because of the stocks & bonds approach they used when investing their clients.

[War Wagon]

There is no such thing as a sure-fire investment strategy.

That may be true, but there are strategies out there that significantly reduce market volitility within your portfolio while still being invested into assets. Proper diversification won't completely eliminate the exposure to a bear market of this nature, but it will protect the potfolio from being completely AP'd.

Like I said, proper correlation to a portfolio will cause your assets performance to cancel each other out during a time like this.

I am part of the program. I'm not sweating it because I am properly correlated with my portfolio.

Fucking hell, Rumps is "properly correlated"... dude, except for the blatant misspellings, it looks like you typed that verbatim out of some book you read and keep for future reference from some JUCO BA course you attended.

Look at the numbers and the investment options I posted above and tell me just how in the hell anyone can have a portfolio that's "properly correlated" right now.

I say you're full of shit.

[War Wagon]

This is the kind of crap Bush and McCain want to do with Social Security. Still want 4 more years?

Quite frankly, I don't give a fuck. I never expect to see a dime from Social Security and if I do manage to live that long and get some of the money back that I paid in, I'll be pleasantly surprised.

[BSmack]

This is the kind of crap Bush and McCain want to do with Social Security. Still want 4 more years?

Right. What we really need are jugeared fucksticks like Odouchenozzle and Barney Fag to tell us what the government is going to do with my money. I thought you libtards were supposed to be pro-choice?[/quote]

I don't give a fuck what you think. It is far more telling that Wags, as die hard a supporter of the GOP as anyone alive is screaming bloody murder now that the "free market" has turned against him. He can't be the only one.

Wags,

The whole point of social security is not so you can live high on the hog. It was so that every retiree was guaranteed a baseline income. Sounds like you might been needing this baseline income if the market tanks any more.

[War Wagon]

Wagon, when do you need your retirement money?
How many years from now?

15-20 if I live that long.

But that's not the point, 'tart. That cash was my nest egg so that if anything happened like losing my job or keeling over with a stroke I'd (and/or wifey) have something to fall back on.

The error, imo, is jerking in and out of the market, because people usually do the wrong thing.

You should have left your money invested and not done anything.
You'd still have the very same number of shares.
Then you just simply wait for the market to rebound ... which it will.

I'm an optimistic gambler. I haven't gotten out and probably won't, even though it seems like throwing good money after bad.

Even if it rebounds, and there's no guarantee that it does, it'll take years to recoup what was lost in the last 12 months. Perhaps more years than I've got. I read somewhere that it was like 1952 before the market gained back what was lost in the Great Depression.

My over riding philosophy is that shit happens and then you die. I just want to have a bit of fun and not get hassled too much along the way. It's not easy doing either.

[poptart]

http://stockcharts.com/charts/historical/djia1900.html

A few points, Wagon.

If you look at the chart you see that the market was GROSSLY over-inflated in 1929, just prior to the crash.
It hit bottom in 1932.
By 1937, it had regained half of what it lost.
You're right that it took 30+ years to regain that 'over-inflated' level it had in 1929.

We haven't had the crash now that they had in 1929.
We've had, to date, about the same thing that we had in the mid-'70s.
Market down about 40%.
When that happened in the '70s, it was just a matter of a few years before the market was right back up where it was prior to the big drop.

My own take is that we're in a little worse shape than we were in the '70s, though.
You can see, looking at that chart, that the market WAS grossly over-inflated in 2007, as it was prior to the great depression.

I think our current peril level is somewhere between that of the depression and that of the mid-'70s.
Whenever we hit the bottom, I think the dow will get back to 14,000 again within 7-10 years.

jmo

[RadioFan]

My over riding philosophy is that shit happens and then you die.

Exactly, so why freak? The market has been up and down in the triple digits for the better part of a week now. Hell, bro, I had to cash in a 401k a few years back due to some external factors and in order to pay off a vehicle. I got fucked royally by Uncle Sam twice, but it was something that I had to do in order to pay the bills in my household.

You do what you have to do. Stressing about it doesn't help, except to maybe shorten your life by a few weeks or months.

[RadioFan]

http://stockcharts.com/charts/historical/djia1900.html

A few points, Wagon.

If you look at the chart you see that the market was GROSSLY over-inflated in 1929, just prior to the crash.
It hit bottom in 1932.
By 1937, it had regained half of what it lost.
You're right that it took 30+ years to regain that 'over-inflated' level it had in 1929.

We haven't had the crash now that they had in 1929.
We've had, to date, about the same thing that we had in the mid-'70s.
Market down about 40%.
When that happened in the '70s, it was just a matter of a few years before the market was right back up where it was prior to the big drop.

My own take is that we're in a little worse shape than we were in the '70s, though.
You can see, looking at that chart, that the market WAS grossly over-inflated in 2007, as it was prior to the great depression.

I think our current peril level is somewhere between that of the depression and that of the mid-'70s.
Whenever we hit the bottom, I think the dow will get back to 14,000 again within 7-10 years.

jmo

RACK

My dad and I have been talking for about the last 5 years about how over-inflated the market has been. Sept. 11, 2001 was merely a hiccup in the drunken idiocy of Wall Street.

[Whitey]

I was wrong!!!

We have much farther to go before we hit bottom but we won't stop until we get there!!

Fed grants AIG $37.8 billion loan

The Federal Reserve on Wednesday agreed to provide insurance giant American International Group Inc. with a loan of up to $37.8 billion, on top of one made to the troubled company last month.

This addition loan comes after...Lawmakers investigating AIG's meltdown said they were enraged that executives of AIG's main U.S. life insurance subsidiary spent $440,000 on the retreat, complete with spa treatments, banquets and golf outings. White House press secretary Dana Perino on Wednesday called the event "despicable."

WTF is Dana Perino the White Version of Daffy Duck??



OKAY AMERICA, The Feds are spending your money, driving down your retirment and you don't get to vote on it!


I thought that some of the (Pork) attached with the bailout was provisions that these companies would have to spend wisely!!

Damn, it's like these companies are the Delta House from Animal House and they are on Double Secret Probation..

You know what that means.....

[Derron]

OKAY AMERICA, The Feds are spending your money, driving down your retirment and you don't get to vote on it!

Will all your cunt dripping liberals be singing the same song when Omuslim gets elected and things go to shit even more ?

[War Wagon]

Diversification is a myth. No one can hedge against a declining market. Everything goes down, unless you are selling short, which is also risky.

Wait. So what you're basically saying is that Rumps theory of "proper correlation" that he read out of a book, but hasn't actually put into practice, is horseshit. That's what I think you said, and I agree. I'd like to see a Rumps comeback with a defense of the drivel he spewed

Diversification can also be a bad idea. While arguably protecting you against a bad stock or sector, it also dampens out your ability to profit from a good one because your money is spread thinly all over the place.

Exactly. Or in other words, greedy bastards like us don't play with scared money. We play to win. It's the American Way.

Unfortunately, this greedy bastard, and many others, got burned.

Ce La Vie.