Coach K, aka Rat Face

Arch Angel · Post by **Arch Angel** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 1:21 pm

How is it possible that a coach can bring an average of 5 to 7 Burger boys (7 on this team), 4 to 6 5-star players (6 on this team) and not make it to at least one Elite Eight?

People said he is the greatest coach in this generation and I don't see how. He can pick and choose what players he wants and still can't get it done.

Is he overrated or the ranking services and Mickey D's wrong about the players they give credence to?

MuchoBulls · Post by **MuchoBulls** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 1:45 pm

Maybe it's because his teams are soft in the physical style of game.

SunCoastSooner · Post by **SunCoastSooner** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 2:35 pm

I think that there isn't much of a difference in McDs AA below the first ten to be selected and the next 40 who are left out most of the time for starters. Secondly He has received a bunch of guards and not big men; for some reason big men have not been going to Duke the last few years as regularly. Last they seem to have been all slow white boys who can just shoot.

Shoalzie · Post by **Shoalzie** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 2:39 pm

MuchoBulls wrote:Maybe it's because his teams are soft in the physical style of game.

They would've been dominated by a guy like Blair down low in the Elite 8 so if 'Nova didn't get them, Pitt would've. Duke will always get guys that shoot and play solid defense but they've been lacking true beef since they had guys like Williams, Boozer or Brand. They don't need a towering center...those three guys I mentioned are pretty much 4s that played as centers. In the college game, there aren't a lot of true centers...more or less, the majority are power forwards. It also helps to just have some guys with length...long arms to get in passing lanes and can alter shots inside or along the perimeter.

Mook · Post by **Mook** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 2:42 pm

Duke nevers throws the ball in to their big men. Why would any talented big man go to Duke just to watch all their guards jack up threes. Wouldn't be my first choice if I was a big guy.

So the question is; does Duke not use their big men because their big men suck? Or, do big men stay away because Duke doesn't use their big men? Kind of a chicken or the egg type question I suppose.

ucantdoitdoggieSTyle2 · Fri Mar 27, 2009 2:47 pm

Arch Angel wrote:He can pick and choose what players he wants and still can't get it done.

How do you think this came to be?

Duke pre-coach K: 4 Final Fours, zero titles. Not exactly what you'd call a storied basketball history. Decent, but not great....

As much as we all hate coach K, you must give the man his props. 800something wins. 3 Titles. 10 Final Fours.

Recently... he's just has too many white boys on his team to win championships. Oh well.

How'd your team make out this year, Arch? Any thoughts on your shit school?

ucantdoitdoggieSTyle2 · Fri Mar 27, 2009 4:55 pm

Sudden Sam wrote:I've never seen such an inability to penetrate.

You ain't seen nothing yet.

Sin,

Mustang · Post by **Mustang** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 5:35 pm

Arch Angel wrote:How is it possible that a coach can bring an average of 5 to 7 Burger boys (7 on this team), 4 to 6 5-star players (6 on this team) and not make it to at least one Elite Eight?

People said he is the greatest coach in this generation and I don't see how. He can pick and choose what players he wants and still can't get it done.

Is he overrated or the ranking services and Mickey D's wrong about the players they give credence to?

Incredible how people can lose perspective........

Can't get it done? Oh, dear....let's refresh....... 3 National Championships, 93 NCAA Tournament wins, 8 final fours, and a bundle of ACC Regular Season AND Tournament Championships (I'm too lazy to go to the record book and give exact number). Dean Smith has a very similar CV (that's curriculum vitae) and I'm sure you and others consider him one of the greatest ever, no? Well, I do. Deano had his early exits too, believe it or not (to go along with his 2 national titles). Is it really fair to judge Coach K on his last few seasons? Please be honest. When most people evaluate a coach, they tend to look at the entire body of work, not just a few seasons. Even Wooden didn't win it every year. Oh, and K also coached the US Olympic Team to a gold medal and was universally praised by players and other personnel. I know, I know...they're NBA stars......all you gotta' do is roll out the balls and they win, right? Uh....no.....the Croatians, Spanish, Greeks, Brazilians, Italians have all said something about that.

I think there's a damn good reason they haven't made it to the Final Four since 2004 (wow....go 30-7 and win the ACC Tournament and people think you "suck"??? Perspective, huh?). Personnel. It was touched on in some of the posts here. Henderson, Singler, Scheyer are nice players but let's face it...they're not Hurley, Hill, Laettner. Unless your name is Bob Knight, it's tough to make chicken salad out of chicken s***. Not to slight the former 3 players but just a figure of speech. And McDonalds All-Americans? Since when did that honor automatically mean "Future Star"? Look out that window...the landscape is filled with MAA's that never panned out.

I didn't realize Krzyzewski can pick and choose his players. I know you were probably using that as a general statement but K's had 1) quite a few players leave early 2) recruits deciding against college after signing to play 3) outright missing out on good talent. Patrick Patterson, Kenny Boynton, and Greg Monroe come to mind. I don't think when K shows up in a kid's living room, the kid busts out a, "Where do I sign!!!"

As I've told people, Duke is a "victim" of their own success. Then again, how many "victims" win the ACC Tournament and finish 1st or 2nd in the America's best basketball conference consistently? Ask NC State when their last Final Four was. Or St. John's. Or Purdue. (they ever get to one? Oh, wait....1980. Congrats). But when deep runs into March are routine, people come to expect that and the standard is raised ridiculously high.

Bottom line, they're still pretty good....just not the same threat to take all the marbles. A lot of teams would LOVE to be as "lousy" as Duke has been lately. Try not to get sucked into anti-Duke nation's obsessions and empty mantras of psychoses. Again, be fair and keep things in perspective.

indyfrisco · Post by **indyfrisco** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 5:40 pm

Mustang wrote:Again, be fair and keep things in perspective.

When talking about Duke? Please....we're haytas, mang.

Mustang · Post by **Mustang** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 6:11 pm

Oh, I know. Rationality, sanity, objectivity, etc. is too much to ask. Kind of sad.

SunCoastSooner · Post by **SunCoastSooner** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 6:36 pm

Mustang wrote:Oh, I know. Rationality, sanity, objectivity, etc. is too much to ask. Kind of sad.

WURD!

Arch Angel · Post by **Arch Angel** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 8:13 pm

Coach K is one of the best ever, over entire body of work, but I am in what have you done lately crowd of seeing a negative trend to a school that gets the players he usually wants.

Who were his early defections in the last five years that were any good? Randolph? McRoberts?

He seems to be after those surburban non athletic shooters that aren't good enough to get shots off without ten screens. If the refs don't bail them out in cases when they play tough teams, they lose.

Singler was dominate when in high school playing in the post. When he got to Duke and saw that if he stays in the paint, he ain't getting the ball so he said "Fuck it!" I am drifting outside and shoot 3-pointers.

I am rooting for North Carolina (third favorite team) to win it all but I feel like that Gonazaga might get them this year. Who I am impress with and grudgingly liking is Mizzou, but ThaBEAST for UCONN is nasty defending the goal.

As for my team, they won one and then lost. I am surprise they even got invited to the tourney with an 18-12 record.

Shine · Post by **Shine** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 8:20 pm

Arch Angel wrote: As for my team, they won one and then lost. I am surprise they even got invited to the tourney with an 18-12 record.

You aren't an Illannoy fan anymore???

Terry in Crapchester · Fri Mar 27, 2009 8:24 pm

Mustang wrote:And McDonalds All-Americans? Since when did that honor automatically mean "Future Star"? Look out that window...the landscape is filled with MAA's that never panned out.

Word.

Sin,

Shine · Post by **Shine** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 8:41 pm

While overall you make very solid points, you lost me here:

Mustang wrote:Then again, how many "victims" win the ACC Tournament and finish 1st or 2nd in the America's best basketball conference consistently?

The ACC is the most overrated basketball conference. It is UNC and Duke plus a bunch of other eh-programs. When nearly 70% of a conferences regular season titles are won by 2 schools the conference as a whole isn't the best. Once again that played out this year in the tourney when it was those same 2 schools advancing to the 2nd weekend while the other 5 bowed out early. Including losing the 2 biggest 1st round seed upsets, one to that oh-so-inferior Big 10 conference. Until other ACC programs are able to sustain some level of success and actually challenge the two big dogs (I mean seriously, every regular season win over the Blue Devils = storm the court) then I don't see how the ACC can be labeled the best.

You certainly need the elite level schools the ACC has with Duke and Carolina but balance is key too.

The Seer · Post by **The Seer** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 8:58 pm

Mustang wrote: Even Wooden didn't win it every year.

Well, almost.

And McDonalds All-Americans? Since when did that honor automatically mean "Future Star"? Look out that window...the landscape is filled with MAA's that never panned out.

Just freshmen, but early exits from the dance are frowned upon in Westwood.

Arch Angel · Post by **Arch Angel** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 9:10 pm

Shine wrote:
Arch Angel wrote: As for my team, they won one and then lost. I am surprise they even got invited to the tourney with an 18-12 record.
You aren't an Illannoy fan anymore???

Who is illannoy?

I live in the Badger state and married into a family of Badger-worshippers. If you are saying Illannoy as a play on words like Loosiers for the Hoosiers, ha ha, funny. I follow them still. I thought they would make it to Gonzaga and then get blown out. They overachieved and I am happy for them. They might be okay next year, I am just waiting for the year after when they bring in the artillery.

MgoBlue-LightSpecial · Sat Mar 28, 2009 1:13 am

MuchoBulls wrote:Maybe it's because his teams are soft in the physical style of game.

I don't think Singler, Henderson, etc. are soft, just under sized compared to a lot of teams.

.m2 · Post by **.m2** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 1:42 am

Duke is the softest team in the ACC nowadays.

After Corey Maggette and Will Avery left early for the NBA, Coach K seems to have gotten ticked off, and he changed his recruiting strategy. Instead of going for the super-duper stars who would leave after 1 or 2 seasons, he went for 4 year guys who were good enough to really contribute each season but not athletic enough to jump early to the pros. Coach K did manage to get Jay Williams to stay for 3 seasons instead of just 2, but he and Luol Deng seem to be the last of the super-duper talents at Duke.

(At that point, Coach K also selfishly tightened his "approved list" system for keeping agents away from his players, much to the ire of agents).

Hence, Duke gets a lot of white players, outside shooters, and 4 year starters. Guys like Trajan Langdon and J.J. Redick thrived and scored in that system, but I'm not sure if either of them can throw down a reverse dunk. These days, if you watch the McDonald's All-America game, the most unathletic guys in the game seem to be Duke commits.

When that 3-point shot stops dropping for Duke, they're dead. Or when they play North Carolina, they're dead.

Same rationale applies for a team like Notre Dame, except that Notre Dame's 4-year guys aren't at Duke's talent level, so they feel the pain of the loss of the 3-point shot even more in lots of games.

ucantdoitdoggieSTyle2 · Sat Mar 28, 2009 2:06 am

someone forgot they were logged in as their m2 troll.

indyfrisco · Post by **indyfrisco** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 2:16 am

ucantdoitdoggieSTyle2 wrote:someone forgot they were logged in as their m2 troll.

2rd

.m2 · Post by **.m2** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 2:23 am

Believe the Heupel wrote:Trajan's black. ;)

Kinda like Obama's black.

IMO, the demise of Duke basketball as a serious national contender coincides with Roy Williams going to North Carolina.

ucantdoitdoggieSTyle2 · Sat Mar 28, 2009 2:27 am

I thought Langdon was 100% Eskimo?

Seriously... "m2"... stop spelling shit correctly with proper grammar and making sense and stuff. You are totally... out of character. Dins?

.m2 · Post by **.m2** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 2:30 am

ucantdoitdoggieSTyle2 wrote: Dins?

He's a fan.

Arch Angel · Post by **Arch Angel** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 3:05 am

Believe the Heupel wrote:
ucantdoitdoggieSTyle2 wrote:I thought Langdon was 100% Eskimo?

Seriously... "m2"... stop spelling shit correctly with proper grammar and making sense and stuff. You are totally... out of character. Dins?
Nope. He's (as .m2 pointed out) half-black half-white. He identifies himself as AA, though. Which has got to be weird playing in Russia, since those guys hate black folk. Russians are straight up racists.

Really, they treated me fine when I was with them. The girls shave under their arms, but their legs, not so much.

King Crimson · Post by **King Crimson** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 3:09 am

part of Duke's "demise" is when Elton Brand and Corey Maquette left early. before that, Duke had a level of multi-year commitment that was very much behind the coming "one and done" zeitgeist. with that, they became like everyone else. same is somewhat true with Izzo and guys like Zach Randolph. as a response, K has got guys like Singler, Scheyer, Henderson and Paulus. if you look at the top 150 list, teams like Memphis and UT are big in the top 25. Duke has got guys spread out in the bottom 100. not exclusively, but you expect those guys rankings will rise.

Roy Williams, as m2 says, may be some truth there. but, Matt Doherty recruited Roy's championship team and Matt won 3 games in C-USA this year. make no mistake, i'm not ripping Roy.....I think he's a great basketball coach.

MgoBlue-LightSpecial · Sat Mar 28, 2009 4:02 am

.m2 wrote:Duke is the softest team in the ACC nowadays.

After Corey Maggette and Will Avery left early for the NBA, Coach K seems to have gotten ticked off, and he changed his recruiting strategy. Instead of going for the super-duper stars who would leave after 1 or 2 seasons, he went for 4 year guys who were good enough to really contribute each season but not athletic enough to jump early to the pros. Coach K did manage to get Jay Williams to stay for 3 seasons instead of just 2, but he and Luol Deng seem to be the last of the super-duper talents at Duke.

(At that point, Coach K also selfishly tightened his "approved list" system for keeping agents away from his players, much to the ire of agents).

Hence, Duke gets a lot of white players, outside shooters, and 4 year starters. Guys like Trajan Langdon and J.J. Redick thrived and scored in that system, but I'm not sure if either of them can throw down a reverse dunk. These days, if you watch the McDonald's All-America game, the most unathletic guys in the game seem to be Duke commits.

When that 3-point shot stops dropping for Duke, they're dead. Or when they play North Carolina, they're dead.

Same rationale applies for a team like Notre Dame, except that Notre Dame's 4-year guys aren't at Duke's talent level, so they feel the pain of the loss of the 3-point shot even more in lots of games.

http://www.bearinsider.com/forums/showt ... hp?t=11787

Richard Lee?

I suspect 2oolio thieved that one as well.

M Club · Post by **M Club** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 6:31 am

Arch Angel wrote: Singler was dominate when in high school playing in the post. When he got to Duke and saw that if he stays in the paint, he ain't getting the ball so he said "Fuck it!" I am drifting outside and shoot 3-pointers.

in other words, a college freshman told the rat what he was and wasn't going to do. no wonder the guy's a legend.

Rack Fu · Post by **Rack Fu** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 1:45 pm

MgoBlue-LightSpecial wrote:
.m2 wrote:Duke is the softest team in the ACC nowadays.

After Corey Maggette and Will Avery left early for the NBA, Coach K seems to have gotten ticked off, and he changed his recruiting strategy. Instead of going for the super-duper stars who would leave after 1 or 2 seasons, he went for 4 year guys who were good enough to really contribute each season but not athletic enough to jump early to the pros. Coach K did manage to get Jay Williams to stay for 3 seasons instead of just 2, but he and Luol Deng seem to be the last of the super-duper talents at Duke.

(At that point, Coach K also selfishly tightened his "approved list" system for keeping agents away from his players, much to the ire of agents).

Hence, Duke gets a lot of white players, outside shooters, and 4 year starters. Guys like Trajan Langdon and J.J. Redick thrived and scored in that system, but I'm not sure if either of them can throw down a reverse dunk. These days, if you watch the McDonald's All-America game, the most unathletic guys in the game seem to be Duke commits.

When that 3-point shot stops dropping for Duke, they're dead. Or when they play North Carolina, they're dead.

Same rationale applies for a team like Notre Dame, except that Notre Dame's 4-year guys aren't at Duke's talent level, so they feel the pain of the loss of the 3-point shot even more in lots of games.
http://www.bearinsider.com/forums/showt ... hp?t=11787

Richard Lee?

I suspect 2oolio thieved that one as well.

Fucking awesome! That would explain the coherent writing.

MuchoBulls · Post by **MuchoBulls** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 10:55 pm

ucantdoitdoggieSTyle2 wrote:
Sudden Sam wrote:I've never seen such an inability to penetrate.

You ain't seen nothing yet.

Sin,

RACK the hell out of that!!

Terry in Crapchester · Sun Mar 29, 2009 1:08 am

Arch Angel wrote:He seems to be after those surburban non athletic shooters that aren't good enough to get shots off without ten screens.

And I'm very proud to be a Coach K disciple.

Sin,

Shoalzie · Post by **Shoalzie** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 11:59 pm

Seth Curry transferring to Duke...

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=4026095

smackaholic · Post by **smackaholic** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 12:05 am

IndyFrisco wrote:
ucantdoitdoggieSTyle2 wrote:someone forgot they were logged in as their m2 troll.

2rd

3nd

That damn auto loggin thingy will foil trolling every time.

Are there other coaches out there that purposely pass on the 1 and done (maybe 2) blue chip "athletes" because they don't want to have to rebuild every fukking year?

Uconn's 2 rings only came when calhoun was able to talk two of those guys that should have been gone in 2 years (hamilton and okafore) to hang around.

You have to wonder if basketball will eventually end up like baseball, the real talent goes straight to the show out of high school, and college is composed largely of pretty good players who will end up having to get real jobs after school.

I hope that doesn't happen, but it is headed that way. There is a solution. Loose the bullshit "amateur" pretense. Pay that fukking kid that is bringing your program $$$$$$ so he can buy momma a nice little house and get her out of the ghetto. The Olympics stopped pretending a long time ago. Maybe it's time the NCAA did the same.

They could handle it similar to pro contracts. Kids sign 2, 3 or 4 year contracts with colleges. These contracts lock them up, so they couldn't jump to the NBA if they wanted to. Pay them what they are worth. I am sure plenty of 18 year olds would sign up for a few hundred grand and all the pussy they could eat for 4 years. It would allow them to help their family and have some spending money.

And maybe coaches would actually go for the best players rather than ones they thought might hang around for 4 years.

M Club · Post by **M Club** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 12:47 am

smackaholic wrote: You have to wonder if basketball will eventually end up like baseball, the real talent goes straight to the show out of high school, and college is composed largely of pretty good players who will end up having to get real jobs after school.

I hope that doesn't happen, but it is headed that way. There is a solution. Loose the bullshit "amateur" pretense. Pay that fukking kid that is bringing your program $$$$$$ so he can buy momma a nice little house and get her out of the ghetto. The Olympics stopped pretending a long time ago. Maybe it's time the NCAA did the same.

They could handle it similar to pro contracts. Kids sign 2, 3 or 4 year contracts with colleges. These contracts lock them up, so they couldn't jump to the NBA if they wanted to. Pay them what they are worth. I am sure plenty of 18 year olds would sign up for a few hundred grand and all the pussy they could eat for 4 years. It would allow them to help their family and have some spending money.

And maybe coaches would actually go for the best players rather than ones they thought might hang around for 4 years.

did you find a sports illustrated from 1994 or something?

ucantdoitdoggieSTyle2 · Mon Mar 30, 2009 2:31 am

smackaholic wrote:Uconn's 2 rings only came when calhoun was able to talk two of those guys that should have been gone in 2 years (hamilton and okafore) to hang around.

Rip wasn't projected as a lottery pick after his sophomore year... he stayed, was named the MVP of the tournament, won a title, and went 7th.

Okafor was probably a top 7-8 pick after his sophomore year... he stayed, blah, blah, blah... #2.

Rip was definitely staying. Okafor was up in the air... but you knew a guy with his character was coming back. Remember, he got his degree in 3 years. His parents pretty much talked him into it.

indyfrisco · Post by **indyfrisco** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 12:31 pm

MgoBlue-LightSpecial wrote:
.m2 wrote:Duke is the softest team in the ACC nowadays.

After Corey Maggette and Will Avery left early for the NBA, Coach K seems to have gotten ticked off, and he changed his recruiting strategy. Instead of going for the super-duper stars who would leave after 1 or 2 seasons, he went for 4 year guys who were good enough to really contribute each season but not athletic enough to jump early to the pros. Coach K did manage to get Jay Williams to stay for 3 seasons instead of just 2, but he and Luol Deng seem to be the last of the super-duper talents at Duke.

(At that point, Coach K also selfishly tightened his "approved list" system for keeping agents away from his players, much to the ire of agents).

Hence, Duke gets a lot of white players, outside shooters, and 4 year starters. Guys like Trajan Langdon and J.J. Redick thrived and scored in that system, but I'm not sure if either of them can throw down a reverse dunk. These days, if you watch the McDonald's All-America game, the most unathletic guys in the game seem to be Duke commits.

When that 3-point shot stops dropping for Duke, they're dead. Or when they play North Carolina, they're dead.

Same rationale applies for a team like Notre Dame, except that Notre Dame's 4-year guys aren't at Duke's talent level, so they feel the pain of the loss of the 3-point shot even more in lots of games.
http://www.bearinsider.com/forums/showt ... hp?t=11787

Richard Lee?

I suspect 2oolio thieved that one as well.

Surprised that this is not getting more run. Rack the shit out of MGO for busting mJew stealing other people's takes as his own yet again. Maybe the reason it isn't getting more run is because this is what we've come to expect from him.

Rack Fu · Post by **Rack Fu** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 12:53 pm

IndyFrisco wrote:
Surprised that this is not getting more run. Rack the shit out of MGO for busting mJew stealing other people's takes as his own yet again. Maybe the reason it isn't getting more run is because this is what we've come to expect from him.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=31389

indyfrisco · Post by **indyfrisco** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 1:03 pm

Ah, thanks. Missed that thread.

smackaholic · Post by **smackaholic** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 1:32 am

ucantdoitdoggieSTyle2 wrote:
smackaholic wrote:Uconn's 2 rings only came when calhoun was able to talk two of those guys that should have been gone in 2 years (hamilton and okafore) to hang around.
Rip wasn't projected as a lottery pick after his sophomore year... he stayed, was named the MVP of the tournament, won a title, and went 7th.

Okafor was probably a top 7-8 pick after his sophomore year... he stayed, blah, blah, blah... #2.

Rip was definitely staying. Okafor was up in the air... but you knew a guy with his character was coming back. Remember, he got his degree in 3 years. His parents pretty much talked him into it.

I seem to recall that there was a chance rip was gonna leave after his sophomore year. One thing is for sure, if he had, they would have been lucky to make the sweet 16. Oak definitely could have left, but, as you say, he's such an outstanding dude away from the court, you knew he'd come back just to knock out that degree. He's a rarity among nba players. He could never pick up a ball again and still be very successful in life.

Another guy from that first team that really should have hung around was khalid el amin. WTF was he thinking? I know he had a wife and kid or two and getting a paycheck probably was a big concern, but, still. Short fat slow guards with no outside jumper tend not to do real well in the NBA. Maybe he just realized that the huskies weren't going anywhere in the next few years and his only shot at a decent check was with to ride the NCAA title hype while it was still hot.

MgoBlue-LightSpecial · Tue Mar 31, 2009 1:37 am

IndyFrisco wrote:Rack the shit out of MGO for busting mJew stealing other people's takes as his own yet again. Maybe the reason it isn't getting more run is because this is what we've come to expect from him.

Pretty much. I copied and pasted "his" first sentence into Google, and guess what the very first link was to come up?

Dude's not even trying anymore to cover it up.