Bill Maher vs Poptart

[JayDuck]

Ruff, no one ever knows if another person loves them. All anyone can do is believe it, assuming anyone could ever know what "love" really is anyway.

Who are you, btw? I've never seen a "Ruff" here before.

Yeah, you're right. And can you believe there are dipshits who will act on such things?

I mean, who would actually change their behavior, live differently, based on something that couldn't be proven.

As is almost universally the case for somebody trying to make an argument, or parallell, in favor of religious beliefs, you have things backwards.

People don't change their behavior based on believing that somebody loves them. They change their behavior based on their own emotions. Because they, themselves, love (or lust after) that person.

[poptart]

Van, I'm curious how is it that you expect to be taken seriously when you just toss out declarations like, "The 12 disciples' were kooks" as if you have some evidence of such?

You assault on their character has ... NO ... basis in fact at all.

Nothing.


12 people, who would have known that Jesus was a fraud, if He was, submitted themselves to die in horrific ways in support who this person who they KNEW to be Christ.

They did not die in a group fashion.

They did so separately, at differnt times and places.


Now perhaps one ... or maybe two of them could have been goofy as all hell and gone willingly to die a horrific death for something them knew to be a ... LIE.

But ALL of them??


That dog won't hunt.

[smackaholic]

I swear to god or the spaghetti monster or who ever the fukk might be up there in the clouds.....if I see one more of you dumbfukks write "noah's arc", I'm gonna.... well, probably go kick my dog or something.



Main Entry: 1arc Pronunciation: \ˈärk\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Middle English ark, from Anglo-French arc bow, from Latin arcus bow, arch, arc — more at arrow
Date:
14th century

1: the apparent path described above and below the horizon by a celestial body (as the sun)
2 a: something arched or curved b: a curved path <the arc of a fly ball>
3: a sustained luminous discharge of electricity across a gap in a circuit or between electrodes ; also : arc lamp
4: a continuous portion (as of a circle or ellipse) of a curved line
5: degree measurement on the circumference of a circle —used especially in the phrase of arc<11 minutes 3 seconds of arc>
6: a continuous progression or line of development <a story's dramatic arc>

nope, not a one of them said a think about some silly mythical bigass zoo boat.

It's ARK dumbfukks.

[Van]

88, Mvscal, you're both glass dicking me...

Pop, the purple Nike crowd also died for their beliefs. So did the Jim Jones crowd. So have countless other human sheep. Big deal. All it proves is their devotion. It doesn't even begin to prove the truth of their beliefs.

Poptart, Christ's disciples weren't exactly the Roman senators of their day. They weren't the most respected members of society.

Besides, this is at least twice now that you've completely glossed over the flip side of your own argument. You can't keep dodging the issue, especially after you brought it up yourself. You wish to weigh the actions of twelve against the actions of thousands, and you wish to weight the twelve's actions more heavily.

How convenient. How ludicrous.

Anyway, screw it, I'm having fun with the whole Noah's arc topic. First off, is it arc or ark? I guess it's really ark. I think I've been spelling it wrong so from now on I'll call it an ark.

About that ark, Pop? Care to explain it? Better yet, do you still wish to say that the story should be taken literally? Do you really wish to sit there and say every insect and ever bird and every animal on earth managed to make its way to the middle east, in groups suitable for breeding and continuing each species? Animals from around the globe that couldn't survive outside of their own climate somehow made their way to the middle east? Flightless animals made their way from Patagonia to the middle east? They brought their own food and shelter, for the entire journey? Then, minus any refrigeration, heating or food Noah kept them all alive on a primitive wooden boat, and not a single one of 'em perished during the entire ordeal?

What, was there a really bitchin' chain of REI For Animals stores in Noah's time, spanning the globe, and they managed to stay open for business despite the entire planet being flooded?

Pop, at some point you're going to have to step up and answer these simple questions, otherwise you have to tap out and concede the bible, like any book of fables, is not to be taken literally.

(Edit: smackie, I was way ahead of ya' on that arc/ark thing. Re-reading my own posts, I finally saw it. I had to see it before it suddenly struck me that I was spelling "Noah's ark" wrong. Sorry about that. I'll try to do better next time.)

[smackaholic]

its OK, bro. happens to the best of us.

btw, I saw it the first time and let it slide. Then you did it again and I was like, fukk, he did it again! Then somebody else repeated it and I couldn't hold back anymore.

[poptart]

Van, I'm not going to answer a whole laundry list of questions you have, particularly when you won't even answer the question of how it is that you know that the disciples were "kooks?"

On what basis can you make such a delaration?

Oh, that's right, you can't.

You simply WANT that to be the case.


You and Bill Maher do the VERY thing that you chide people of faith for.

That is, you make declarations of a "truth" of your own imagination when NO basis for it exists at all.

And you hope that if you sell hit hard with a lot of vitriol and sarcasm, people will buy what you're selling.

There is NO evidence that the 12 disciples were kooks, and yet you come in here selling it as fact.

And a good deal of the time you can't make up your mind whether to argue against parts of the Bible, or just simply try to sell that ... people and events were never REAL people or events.

Make up your mind, woman!

lol


I mentioned the VERY powerful testimony of complete fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy by the man, Jesus, and you dismiss it with a wave of the hand.

Doesn't fit YOUR faith, so you, Maher, and the others who sell their warped concepts with such force, try to sweep it under the rug and dismiss it as ... kooky.

Look into the prophecy fulfillment on your own ... if you're got a pair of nuts.

Or ... just wave it away if it won't fit ... YOUR faith.

It's VERY powerful stuff, I'm here to tell ya.


88, mvscal, Van, Jonestown AIN'T the same thing.

I've repeatedly pointed out that those people THOUGHT something was true, and they died for it.

In the case of the 12 disciples, if Jesus was a fraud, they KNEW that, and they still chose, in different times and places, to die for a lie.

If you can't recognize that the situations are at a complete 180 from each other, oh well.

[Uncle Fester]

People get too hung up on the "truth" aspect of religion. Life is tough and at various times, kicks all of us in the ass. If having a faith helps a person cope then I don't see any harm in it. The only needs test that should concern anyone is whether the religion causes harm, either inherently or in its practice (e.g. Islam).

Jesse Ventura called religion a "crutch for the weak minded," and he's right of course, but so what? Life is replete with death, disease, destruction, and Bob Saget re-runs, so shut the fook up already with the snide remarks. If some old lady says she'll pray for me, I just smile and say "thanks" and appreciate the sentiment.

As for the Bible and Christianity, it's got some nice ideas and metaphors going for it:
Do unto to others.
Love thy neighbor.
"Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me."

C'mon, that's good stuff.

"Faith" is simply a metaphor for hope, the idea that tomorrow will be a better day.

"Jesus died for you," is a metaphor for selflessness and sacrifice, something you find out you need in spades when you have your first child.

I used to be an uptight, preachy, pain-in-the-ass atheist and I found it a harder way to live. Now, if somebody insists on a label, I just tell them I'm a "Hopeful Agnostic." I can't prove there is someone out there listening to my prayers when I ask for strength, help for my children, or healing of the afflicted, but it sure would be nice if it were true. That can be enough. It's more than I'll ever get from a guy like Bill Maher.

[Van]

Van, I'm not going to answer a whole laundry list of questions you have

What?? I gave you only TWO!

1-If it's so compelling (to you, anyway) that twelve people who met the guy thought Christ was god then by that reasoning wouldn't it be much more compelling that thousands of other people who met the guy didn't think he was god?

2-Explain Noah's ark.

That's hardly a whole laundry list of questions.

Those are the only two things I've asked you to explain and I've been getting no response from you on the first question the whole time; long before the thing about the apostles being kooks came up. You were already dodging the question.

particularly when you won't even answer the question of how it is that you know that the disciples were "kooks?"

I already answered it. I said those apostles were hardly the Roman senators of their day. They weren't the most well respected members of society. Like Christ, they were basically hippies. None of 'em had to pull an 88 and work less so as to dip under the Obama Caesar's new "rich guy" tax penalty.

On what basis can you make such a delaration?

That one. There was also the hallucinations in the desert thingy. These guys were Woodstock, long before Jimi Hendrix.

Oh, that's right, you can't.

Oh, that's right. I just did.

You simply WANT that to be the case.

I simply couldn't care less, actually. No matter WHO they were it was still just twelve people, vs thousands. They don't matter at ALL to me, is what I keep telling you. Their opinion matters nil.

You and Bill Maher do the VERY thing that you chide people of faith for.

That is, you make declarations of a "truth" of your own imagination when NO basis for it exists at all.

And you hope that if you sell hit hard with a lot of vitriol and sarcasm, people will buy what you're selling.

Pop, I'm fighting a battle against talking snakes, virgin births and arks that were physical impossibilties performing animal husbandry missions that were physically impossible.

I don't have to try very hard. I just have to somehow get you to sit still and engage.

There is NO evidence that the 12 disciples were kooks, and yet you come in here selling it as fact.

Get off that point. Quit belaboring it already. It doesn't matter who they were, they were only twelve people. Answer the fucking question already about the thousands of NON BELIEVERS.

And a good deal of the time you can't make up your mind whether to argue against parts of the Bible, or just simply try to sell that ... people and events were never REAL people or events.

It's the same argument, and I've never wavered from it. I'm arguing against the bible because so many of the people and events described in it were never real.

Make up your mind, woman!

Answer the questions, woman!

I mentioned the VERY powerful testimony of complete fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy by the man, Jesus, and you dismiss it with a wave of the hand.

I did. Crap like that couldn't be LESS powerful, unless you're already part of the choir. Old Testament prophecy couldn't be less pertinent to truth. These people may not've ever existed. Their prophecies may not've ever been made. Their prophecies may have been re-written after the fact so as to be self fulfilling.

Pop, OT prophecies are a joke. Do not even attempt to quote them as proof of anything, ever. You may not quote the bible to prove the bible. When will you ever grasp this basic concept?

Doesn't fit YOUR faith, so you, Maher, and the others who sell their warped concepts with such force, try to sweep it under the rug and dismiss it as ... kooky.

Pop, please. Try harder. Prophets in any culture are the least reliable and most scurrilous snake oil salesmen imaginable. Prophecy and a blowjob are things you can get a palm reader to give you for five bucks. Do enough peyote and you're a prophet. Make enough predictions and eventually some will come true, and you're a prophet. Keep the prophecy vague enough and you can fit anything into being proof it came true.

So, Pop, here's your game plan, since you mentioned the court thing...

-Can't quote your own book to prove your own book. Inadmissable.

-Can't quote prophets, either from your own book or anybody else's. Inadmissable.

Got it? Now try to make your case.

Look into the prophecy fulfillment on your own ... if you're got a pair of nuts.

I'd sooner look at my pair of nuts than subject myself to one more hour of reading up on prophecy.

You want to come off as an iron clad kook? Quote prophecy.

Or ... just wave it away if it won't fit ... YOUR faith.

If I give YOU five bucks will you tell me my fortune and at least give me a handjob?

It's VERY powerful stuff, I'm here to tell ya.

Okay then, be gentle and use lotion.

88, mvscal, Van, Jonestown AIN'T the same thing.

True. Jonestown involved far more than twelve Believers.

I kid.

Still, c'mon, Pop. People willingly die for stupid shit; erroneous shit. It's as old as the hills. You can't possibly be trying to make your argument based on twelve iffy people.

I've repeatedly pointed out that those people THOUGHT something was true, and they died for it.

And I've repeatedly told you that it doesn't matter what they thought. Furthermore, their opinion is rendered moot by the overwhelming majority of people who met Christ. Those people disagreed with those disciples. Their opinions are every bit as valid to me as those of the disciples.

They were there too and they didn't think Christ was god.

In the case of the 12 disciples, if Jesus was a fraud, they KNEW that, and they still chose, in different times and places, to die for a lie.

So...fucking..what?

People die for lies every day. I think the prophet Orenthal said that.

If you can't recognize that the situations are at a complete 180 from each other, oh well.

Answer to the majority opinion, Pop. Explain why only twelve of his contemporaries bought stock in Christ while thousands didn't and then exlain why we should give a rip what those twelve thought while we shouldn't give a rip what everyone else thought.

[War Wagon]

Care to take a stab at Noah's arc? Two of every animal on earth, in one non climate controlled boat?

of course, research has shown that based on the stated physical dimensions of the arc, that construction of such a boat would go against all of the laws of physics...but then again, going against the laws of physics has never been much of a problem for christians

oh, and you forgot to mention all of the FEED that would have been necessary to sustain two (or is it more, the bible is a little hazy on the specifics of exactly how many of each kind there were as evidenced in Genesis 6:19-21, Genesis 7:2-3) of every kind of animal......

Just parables, meant to entertain your goofy ass at the doctors office when you were having your tonsils yanked out.

The Old Testament is not to be taken literally. It was written for incredulous children like you. The authors hit their mark.

[Van]

WW, you're right. Now get Pop and the other literalists to admit it's just a book of parables. Or Fables. Your choice. Get them to stop selling that the entire book was written by and/or inspired by god and that every single word in the bible is literal truth.

[War Wagon]

Answer to the majority opinion....

The majority opinion means squat.

The path is wide but the way is narrow.

Eye of the needle narrow. Few will negotiate it. Certainly not even the majority of those who try to walk that path, much less those who choose to stray from it.

[Van]

Answer to the majority opinion....

The majority opinion means squat.

It means everything, when Pop is trying to prove his point via eyewitness testimony. His whole point is twelve people who knew Christ believed in his divinity enough to die for it. Well, if that matters then what about the thousands of other people who knew Christ who didn't think he was divine?

In that instance, yes, the majority opinion must be taken into consideration.

Can't have it both ways, WW.

The path is wide but the way is narrow.

Lay off her already, fucker. I always find a good spot, eventually.

-Rumps

[War Wagon]

WW, you're right. Now get Pop and the other literalists to admit it's just a book of parables. Or Fables. Your choice. Get them to stop selling that the entire book was written by and/or inspired by god and that every single word in the bible is literal truth.

For the most part, I take the New Testament literally.

For novice adult readers, that's where you start.

You get too hung up on the Noah's Ark stuff and miss the inspiring, pristine beauty that's contained in the 2nd part of that book.

If the Bible were a classic CFB game, I'd tape the 1st half but watch the 2nd half live, only going back later to chuckle over the parts I'd missed. As every fan knows, the 2nd half is what matters.

Heaven and Hell, we may even get an overtime.

[Van]

My favorite metal album, too.

[smackaholic]

Now here's the really big point of all this. If you believe in God and play by his rules, when you die your soul will go to a place that is much better than anything you can imagine here on Earth (This, of course, assumes you have been making your 10% tithe payments, which we'll discuss a little later). But if you don't believe in God and don't do exactly what his agents tell you (pointing to himself), then your soul will go to a pit of fire for all eternity. Any questions:

Actually, this actually sounds fair enough. It is basically the model for judaism. Christianity on the other hand is fukked up in that it basically says, hey you're human, you can't hep it, go ahead and fukk up. Infact, you can be a real pos pretty much your entire life, and so long as you believe in jeeeezus, you're in like flynn. On the other hand, you can be a real stand up guy, not cheat on the wife, hardly ever look at pron, all that, but, if you don't beleeeb, you'll be down in hades playing poker with adolph, uncle joe and ghengis khan.

[.m2]

Now here's the really big point of all this. If you believe in God and play by his rules, when you die your soul will go to a place that is much better than anything you can imagine here on Earth (This, of course, assumes you have been making your 10% tithe payments, which we'll discuss a little later). But if you don't believe in God and don't do exactly what his agents tell you (pointing to himself), then your soul will go to a pit of fire for all eternity. Any questions:

Actually, this actually sounds fair enough. It is basically the model for judaism.

No it's not.

It's not even close.

[Tom In VA]

People don't change their behavior based on believing that somebody loves them. They change their behavior based on their own emotions. Because they, themselves, love (or lust after) that person.

Yes and no.

Actually, some people don't change until their behavior causes them enough pain to change. Some, don't change. I agree that the ultimate motivation is an emotional change within the changer but the fact somebody loves them can be the impetus to that emotion.

I know personally, when I went astray, at least the desire to change came from the fact my mother loved me, among others. Granted it could be said there were feint attempts at change until the point when I got it through my thick ass head the way I was living was no good. But I'll never underestimate the power of love to help another human being change their course.

[titlover]

Just fuckin' wit' ya', though if you wish to be technical you did in fact say all of them when you said...

they have crude evidence that all these 'miracles' in teh bible were actual occurencees in nature.

...and...

...so, for all these miracles written about in the bible there was a possible explanation.

Dunno 'bout you but to me "all" and "every single damn one" mean the same thing. Had you said "some" rather than "all," well...

ahh, but does the great flood constitute a miracle? just sounds like an Al Gore talking point

[Felix]

The Old Testament is not to be taken literally.

says who?

when people began to point out that in the old testament that god was pretty much of a fucking douchebag, the christers suddenly came up with the "pay no attention to THAT part, it's the New Testament" that's important"

when inconsistencies in the New Testament are pointed out, it's "well, those aren't meant to be taken literally, it's merely a metaphor for something else that god meant"

it's laughably ridiculous...the fact you believe it doesn't really come as a big surprise

How could this thread have gone this far without someone mentioning Richard Dawkins?

or Christopher Hitchens

Maher is to critical thinking, what velvet Elvis pictures are to fine art

[Van]

Felix, I'll betcha at least someone here on this board has or at least has had a velvet Elvis painting...

:D

[Felix]

Felix, I'll betcha at least someone here on this board has or at least has had a velvet Elvis painting...

:D

rumor has it that jc is a huge elvis fan

[.m2]

Just here to help... "the gentiles".









the truth

[poptart]

Van, I think I started to lose count, maybe at about 78-or-so, of the times in this thread that you've attributed a "take" to me that isn't mine.
Or lumped me in with a "majority Christian" point of view, as you perceive it to be, which perhaps I am not a part of.
Or given a label to me, such as "literalist" ... which is probably not accurate in the sense that you understand the word.
And you've repeatedly spoken of me trying to, or needing to, prove something.

In this thread I am not in the act of trying to prove anything to you.
I'm happy to discuss things with you, as time allows me to do so.

You won't get your wish that I not speak of the Bible, or reference the Bible.
This topic is ABOUT the Bible, and again, I am not seeking to "prove" the Bible to you, I am seeking to discuss it with you.

Van, I'm not going to answer a whole laundry list of questions you have

What?? I gave you only TWO!

About that ark, Pop? Care to explain it?
Better yet, do you still wish to say that the story should be taken literally?
Do you really wish to sit there and say every insect and ever bird and every animal on earth managed to make its way to the middle east, in groups suitable for breeding and continuing each species?
Animals from around the globe that couldn't survive outside of their own climate somehow made their way to the middle east?
Flightless animals made their way from Patagonia to the middle east?
They brought their own food and shelter, for the entire journey?
Then, minus any refrigeration, heating or food Noah kept them all alive on a primitive wooden boat, and not a single one of 'em perished during the entire ordeal?
What, was there a really bitchin' chain of REI For Animals stores in Noah's time, spanning the globe, and they managed to stay open for business despite the entire planet being flooded?

:?

That's 8 questions from just ONE of your posts.

Yeah, yeah, I know ... it's all within ONE big question ... about the flood.


Van, Wagon made a correct statement in an earlier post of his.
He said that those who come to the realization that Jesus is Christ "just have it come upon them" ... to paraphrase him.
This is true.
The truth of Christ comes on people, their heart softens, and they receive Him, they receive that truth.

And that was a key point of my first post in this thread.
You can look at that post again, if you like.
Perhaps I might have been best off leaving that post as my only post in the thread.

1Corinthians 12:3
no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost

And no amount of persuasive words will do the trick.
Unless the Holy Spirit moves a person to make the realization and acceptance, it won't happen.

And this critical point will lead me into giving a reply to your 1st of 2 questions that you want to ask.

1-If it's so compelling (to you, anyway) that twelve people who met the guy thought Christ was god then by that reasoning wouldn't it be much more compelling that thousands of other people who met the guy didn't think he was god?

I'll try to make this as brief as possible, but please give it a good read.

The Bible records that Jesus healed ... SO ... many people.
SO many people flocked to Him, gathered to Him, sought to be near Him.
And yet all of this time, it is not recorded a single time that anyone thought He was ... God, or Christ.

Then fiinally, as recorded in Matthew 16, Jesus asked Peter who people say that He is.
Peter said that they think He is Elijah (who was said in prophecy to be coming before the Christ), or one of the prophets.

And Jesus asked Peter who HE says that Jesus is.
And Peter answered ... You are the Christ.

Jesus said, yes, I am, and flesh and blood did not reveal it to you, but my Father did, which of course is the Holy Spirit, since God did not come and directly tell Peter this.

Until such time as the Holy Spirit moves on a person, they are not going to recognize or confess Christ.

The disciples, who had BEEN with Jesus, and been eyewitness to COUNTLESS miracles and works of God, ... ran and freaking HID after they saw Jesus get crucified.

They gave up, despite all that they had seen and all that Jesus had promised them.

And even THIS is recorded in Matthew 28:17 about what happened initially when the disciples saw the risen Christ, who had PROMISED to them that He would resurrect.

Matthew 28:17
And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

STILL, some doubted, even as they SAW Him resurrected.

THAT is how deeply rooted disbelief is in mankind.

Doubt about God is man's nature since the event of Genesis 3.
All people are caught within this nature of doubt ... even Christians.

But Jesus told the disciples to WAIT for the Holy Spirit which would come to them, and that when it came, they would have power.

As recorded in Act 1, when that Holy Spirit did come to the disciples, they DID have a full faith and full conviction about who Jesus is.

And it was at that point that those 12 people were willing to go to their brutal deaths to begin the Gospel movement which has, as promised by Christ Himself, gone to the ends of the earth.

THIS was God's method.

You are not satisfied because you think that God should have operated in another way, a way which would have been good with YOUR sensibilities.

You think that God should have come down and announced to people that He is God, and made it PERFECTLY clear, so that hundreds, thousands, millions, would have KNOWN that He is God.

Since you're not God, you don't make the rules.

You just live here.

2-Explain Noah's ark.

Van, Noah's Ark could be an endless discussion.

I believe it, you don't.

How about we just leave it there and save ourselves 12 more pages of rambling?

Trust me, I have an answer for every question you want to ask about it.

And I also trust that you won't like my answers.

[smackaholic]

People get too hung up on the "truth" aspect of religion. Life is tough and at various times, kicks all of us in the ass. If having a faith helps a person cope then I don't see any harm in it. The only needs test that should concern anyone is whether the religion causes harm, either inherently or in its practice (e.g. Islam).

Jesse Ventura called religion a "crutch for the weak minded," and he's right of course, but so what? Life is replete with death, disease, destruction, and Bob Saget re-runs, so shut the fook up already with the snide remarks. If some old lady says she'll pray for me, I just smile and say "thanks" and appreciate the sentiment.

As for the Bible and Christianity, it's got some nice ideas and metaphors going for it:
Do unto to others.
Love thy neighbor.
"Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me."

C'mon, that's good stuff.

"Faith" is simply a metaphor for hope, the idea that tomorrow will be a better day.

"Jesus died for you," is a metaphor for selflessness and sacrifice, something you find out you need in spades when you have your first child.

I used to be an uptight, preachy, pain-in-the-ass atheist and I found it a harder way to live. Now, if somebody insists on a label, I just tell them I'm a "Hopeful Agnostic." I can't prove there is someone out there listening to my prayers when I ask for strength, help for my children, or healing of the afflicted, but it sure would be nice if it were true. That can be enough. It's more than I'll ever get from a guy like Bill Maher.

As usual, rack the fukk outta fester.

May there be a keg of hamm's that never runs dry for you in the after life. What do you suppose is served in hell? I'm guessing busch. Dins is the bartender who reminds you on every refill what fukking swill you are drinking and that those that made it to heaven are treated to a vast array of U&L micros. mvscal is the "norm" of this cheers in hades. he is constantly called by his wife, the widow crapchester, telling him to get his pasty ass home right now.

[Van]

Just a few quick things, Pop...

-I label you a literalist (would you prefer "fundamentalist"?) because unlike people like WW who pick and choose through the bible's fables you're one of those thumpers who feels the need to take every single word of the bible literally, including every word of the Old Testament. You don't allow for interpretation or allegory. Nope, to you it's important that Adam and his rib actually happened, exactly as it's written in the bible: one man springing up from nowhere to populate the entire planet; talking snakes; 900 year old people; Noah's ark; virgin births, etc.

This is how you've always labeled yourself. If I'm wrong in this correct me and I'll stop labeling you thusly.

-The Noah's ark question is one simple question. All those specific questions are just components that describe how impossible the concept truly is. You do need to answer that question. It's a very basic question.

How could all the aniimals of the earth survive a trip to the middle east, in breeding groups no less? How would they know how to find the place? How would they get there? How could a basically immobile and diet specific pair of breedable tree sloths from South America get to the middle east? How would all these different climate/diet specific animals survive the different climate/diet of the middle east? How would animals with different climate/temperature needs all survive on a non climate controlled boat? How would they all fit on one boat? How would they be housed and fed? How would they survive the journey back home? The earth was flooded. How are they to make their way back to Alaska or Australia from the middle east, following a flood that covered the planet?

Yeah, it's a lot of specific questions but the point of all those questions is one obvious question: How could the fable of Noah's ark possibly be taken literally? If you don't wish to tackle the questions individually, fine. That's cool. We both know you couldn't answer them anyway. The basic, obvious question though, yeah, you need to answer it.

-The topic of this thread isn't the bible. Maher's movie isn't about the bible. It's about organized religions. Christianity is just one of many religions he tackles.

I'm asking you about the bible.

Your insistence on quoting the bible to prove the bible is no different than a Kia salesman whipping out a Kia brochure and reading it to you in an effort to prove to you that his Kia is better than a BMW. Smart shoppers tend to treat such information as biased and utterly lacking in credibility. It could even be considered tainted fruit.

[PSUFAN]

Fester, what I get out of Maher is...comedy. He's a funny man. I have never watched one of his shows without laughing out loud.

To me, the key is this...who the hell cares what your neighbor believes, as long as it's not getting in your way?

[Felix]

To me, the key is this...who the hell cares what your neighbor believes, as long as it's not getting in your way?

absolutely right

the problem is that too many thumpers insist that science classes "teach the controversy" "we just want kids to consider ALL of the avenues and make up their own minds"

of course, that's rubbish...they don't want to teach ALL of the theories (Raelian theory for one) they just want to teach one...that some unidentified magical being poofed everything into existence via some unknown mechanism

I believe in live and let live, but when it starts to interfere with the education of my children, that's where I draw the line....there is no educational value in teaching that "god made it"

[smackaholic]

Easy solution to this problem.

School choice.

Your tax dollars go into the school system. You should have some control over which system it is.

I think the vast majority would still use traditional public schools.....outside shithole ghetto cites, anyhoo.

You want to send your chillins to learn about jesus, santa claus, hannukah harry or the easter bunny? Fine. It's your money.

[Van]

Can someone please explain to me how a country which purports to have a separation of church and state still manages to include both a mention and symbolized image of god on its government issued currency? How in the hell did that one slip through the editing process?

For all the evidence we have of god's existence our money might as well say, "In Santa we trust." It could include a pic of 'Spray in his bathrobe, flying across the sky in a NASCAR rig, bomb bays open, shit bombs deployed and ready to be dropped down everyone's chimneys.

[Moving Sale]

Can someone please explain to me how a country which purports to have a separation of church and state still manages to include both a mention and symbolized image of god on its government issued currency?

Who purports that there is a separation of Church and State? Even a vapid fuck like you can read the 1st Am right? Well? What does it say?

[Mr T]

Yes there is a separation of church and state but how does god being on the currency affect anyone?

I think Thomas Jefferson said it best..

"Religion is a subject on which I have ever been most scrupulously reserved. I have considered it as a matter between every man and his Maker in which no other, and far less the public, had a right to intermeddle" - Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Richard Rush (1813)

Also, I think this Buddhist quote is pretty good also...
"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who has said it, not even if i have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense."

[LTS TRN 2]

The wall between church and state should be visible from outer space. I mean, look what you've done to P-tart. You've got him all in a whirl, testifying in absurdly long pissing contest posts. I wonder how he'd be spinning if he saw something like this attending his Christer cult camping trip (singalongs at night!)

....uh....praise?....Jeezzzusss...?...

[poptart]

-I label you a literalist (would you prefer "fundamentalist"?) because unlike people like WW who pick and choose through the bible's fables you're one of those thumpers who feels the need to take every single word of the bible literally, including every word of the Old Testament. You don't allow for interpretation or allegory. Nope, to you it's important that Adam and his rib actually happened, exactly as it's written in the bible: one man springing up from nowhere to populate the entire planet; talking snakes; 900 year old people; Noah's ark; virgin births, etc.

This is how you've always labeled yourself. If I'm wrong in this correct me and I'll stop labeling you thusly.

Not all of the Bible is to be taken literally.

There are most definitely parts which are "imagery," etc.

It is a SPIRITUAL book, and the main PURPOSE of the Bible is to tell man about salvation, to tell them about Christ, who the Bible is really ALL about.

John 5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me (Jesus Christ).

I'm pressed for time so I can't elaborate at the moment.
I will later.

Again, Van, I'm not trying to prove anything to you if I post Scripture.
I'm just trying to explain a Biblical point of view.

If you want to say it's all full of shit, you're more than welcome to have that take.


I'll respond aout Noah's Ark later.

[Van]

Not all of the Bible is to be taken literally.

There are most definitely parts which are "imagery," etc.

Okay, that's the first time I've ever heard you back off even an inch. So, okay, give me some examples of those things which shouldn't be taken literally.

I look forward to your Noah's ark explanation, especially if that's not one of those parts which should only be considered "imagery."

[Moving Sale]

I look forward to your Noah's ark explanation, especially if that's not one of those parts which should only be considered "imagery."

And I am looking forward to you explaining your position on separation of church and state you braindead assfuck.

[Van]

TVO, take this however you wish and claim whatever 'bode you want but this will be the one and only time I'll tell you this...

I'm through with posting with you, whenever you resort to endless name calling. I seriously don't wish to spend my time talking with someone who can't manage to converse on a semi mature level.

I know that's not how THIS place is. This is a smack board. I know taking such a stance isn't cool 'round these parts. I really couldn't care less. It's my time, and I'll spend it how I wish. I'll conduct myself as I see fit. I don't wish to waste my time arguing with someone as childishly belligerent as you. I didn't come back to these boards just to get bogged down in endless mud slinging and juvenile name calling.

So, I won't. From here on out I simply won't respond to you any time you resort to gratuitous name calling.

If you say that one of the principals upon which this country was not supposed to be founded was a separation of church and state then so be it. I guess I and a whole lot of other people in this country were mistaken.

[smackaholic]

TVO, take this however you wish and claim whatever 'bode you want but this will be the one and only time I'll tell you this...

I'm through with posting with you, whenever you resort to endless name calling. I seriously don't wish to spend my time talking with someone who can't manage to converse on a semi mature level.

I know that's not how THIS place is. This is a smack board. I know taking such a stance isn't cool 'round these parts. I really couldn't care less. It's my time, and I'll spend it how I wish. I'll conduct myself as I see fit. I don't wish to waste my time arguing with someone as childishly belligerent as you. I didn't come back to these boards just to get bogged down in endless mud slinging and juvenile name calling.

So, I won't. From here on out I simply won't respond to you any time you resort to gratuitous name calling.

If you say that one of the principals upon which this country was not supposed to be founded was a separation of church and state then so be it. I guess I and a whole lot of other people in this country were mistaken.

Gratuitous name calling is a'ight, if you're good at it. mvscal can get away with it as he generally mixes in a take. TiVO can't.

[Moving Sale]

I'm through with posting with you, whenever you resort to endless name calling.

Go fuck yourself Van.

[Moving Sale]

mvscal can get away with it as he generally mixes in a take.

A take that is right down your alley seeing as you two are a couple of Racist tards Eh?

[Ruff]

I know personally, when I went astray, at least the desire to change came from the fact my mother loved me, among others.

According to Van, and many others here, the FACT that you can't prove she loved you makes you a kookie, hallucinogenic, brain-dead hippie.

I think it's quite plausible and understandable that you felt the emotion, could not verify it as fact, and still were influenced by it.

This sort of thing happens every moment of every day. To another observer it may seem wack. But as Fester says, who fookin cares what others think, it's working well for you. Those same observers likely make similar choices, only in different matters.

Much of faith is based on revelation, something that has come to one's awareness that others may not have "seen" directly. So they feel compelled to criticize. That also is understandable, they didn't witness it directly. They may have evidence which directly contradicts one's revelation. That evidence doesn't render the revelation false, just that they'll probably refute it.