So what is the difference?

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

Sam,

Okie State only has one impressive win as well (Mizzou). Why then, when it's contrary to your logic, do they get a free pass but not PSU?

Let's look at the rest of their wins:

Washington St
Houston
Missouri St
Troy
Texas A&M
Baylor

Yeah, a real murderer's row of competition. I'm certainly convinced they could beat PSU "fairly easily."

I don't take any issue with you not believing PSU is for real. There's really no way to tell if they are or not quite yet. All I ask is that you show consistency with your arguments. When you say they're discounted because they've only beaten one good team, then you should discount OK St as well.

[SEC GlassHouseHomer]

No, actually I'm not an SECBSH.

Dude, look in the fukken mirror.

This is what you'll see.




Denial.

Not only a river in Egypt, bro.

FTFY

NC

[indyfrisco]

How did Ohio State score against Florida?

How did 2007 Florida do against 1995 Nebraska?

This ain't EA Sports or the NFL. You can't compare victories/losses from year to year.

[indyfrisco]

You're not pissing me off, Sam. I don't see Ohio State's recent years as a failure. It is DAMN HARD to with a Championship. The fact they have "gotten there" 3 times in recent years, winning one, in my book, is a tremendous success. Last year...they weren't the better team. The year before...they weren't the better team. Against Miami...they were.

Only OUFan and U$CFan has felt the same as OSU fan recently. I would give my left nut, and possibly right, to have 3 BCS Championship appearances, winning only 1, in such a short span.

[PSUFAN]

I think the question "how good is tOSU really" is a valid one - one that might be asked of a good many teams at this point.

Is USC the team that lost to the team PSU ransacked, or the team that dryfucked tOSU?
Is Texas the team that mouth-buttfucked Mizzou, or the team that squeaked past OSU?

Myself, I like PSU's chances against any of the Big 12 teams, who seem to be defined primarily by their offenses rather than their defenses. I think PSU is better because the offense is decent, and the defense is too. I think that against a more high-powered offense, PSU can and will be more productive themselves offensively. No offense to tOSU, but when you expect the true frosh QB to eventually make a mistake, then a conservative approach on offense is probably the right one. I could live with a few more points scored, of course...but moving the ball and eating clock keeps the ball out of your opponent's hands, as well.

I think the best scenario is when you are able to only do what you have to do offensively, and let your defense tee off and look for the mistake. Tressel and Paterno have always sought the upper hand in that sort of game. The difference is that when they have to, late in the game, this PSU team CAN move the ball and score, which is what they did. In 2002, tOSU did that over and over again.

Here is what I think will happen: PSU will beat their remaining opponents and be the lone undefeated team from the BCS conferences. Texas and Alabama will lose, and the conversation will shift from PSU to the array of 1 loss teams that seek to oppose them in the MNC title game.

At THAT point we'll have a good metric for comparison.

[Goober McTuber]

Sam, just be satisfied with the fact that virtually every announcer that’s done a PSU game this year has commented on the fact that they look like an SEC team.

How so? What's their criteria?

They must be SEC ball-sucking homers who are looking to cover their asses when PSU makes the championship game. Look, if you’ve lost a game to anyone other than an undefeated team, you just might not be one of the top two teams in the country. If Alabama wins out they are as deserving as anyone of a shot at the title. If they lose, and Texas and PSU both win out, no SEC team belongs in the title game.

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

How did Ohio State score against Florida?

Honestly? REALLY??

We're talking about Penn St, and you're referencing a game OSU played over two years ago. Why? What does a game Ohio St played that far back have to do with PSU's victory over the Buckeyes this season?

How'd they do against Southern Cal?

Not well. When you go on the road, very early in the season, and play the best overall team this past decade, well, winning is tough. I think ANYBODY would've gotten shit stomped that day. Big 12, SEC, you name it. I'm not interested in hearing your transitive arguments, however. Only SECBSH puts stock into that line of thinking. What impressed me was how PSU went into an extremely hostile environment at The Shoe, and totally shut down a team that had just started to unravel itself offensively. As an aside, let me say there should be no link to what Ohio St has done in the past in isolated games to what this Penn St team is currently doing. Ohio State's past successes and failures have no bearing whatsoever on this PSU team. These are two totally different programs.

[buckeye_in_sc]

The transitive argument is alive and well in SEC/ACC land (trust me I hear it almost daily)...they all associate tOSU's failures and transpose them onto PSU right now...which in turn offers no links between the two...that is how stupid some of these SEC BSH's are...

Look PSU could go into the MNC and blow the doors off Big 12 or SEC team...and what will people say? Oh boy you got lucky? Bullshit...

I agree with Frisco...it is damn hard to make it to a MNC game...only one team can win...the thing is people want to lambaste OSU for last year...they didn't DESERVE to be there...I was perfectly happy for them going to the Rose Bowl...but the fact that how many teams lost in front of them over the last 2 weeks...I got to see my team, alma matre in the NC game since it was in New Orleans and won 10 G's...so I had a great time...

I am sure

Richt
Bilema
Mack
Saban
Les
etc...would all have loved to have gone to 3 NC games and come out 1-2...I do not hang my head or think tOSU should apologize...

PSU has had some pretty good success against the SEC in bowls and have won what 3 or 4 straight Bowl Games...so how people are still consistently linking them to OSU is laughable...

[Goober McTuber]

How did Ohio State score against Florida?

Honestly? REALLY??

We're talking about Penn St, and you're referencing a game OSU played over two years ago. Why? What does a game Ohio St played that far back have to do with PSU's victory over the Buckeyes this season?

But…but…but look at what happened to Wisconsin when they played Tennessee last year.

Sincerely,

SEC-Bukake Sam

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

So what are your thoughts on Saturday's game, Goobs? I hear Beckum is out. Could get ugly...

[Goober McTuber]

So what are your thoughts on Saturday's game, Goobs? I hear Beckum is out. Could get ugly...

Beckum is done for the year. Two similar teams with very good running games, suspect QBs and inconsistent defenses. I’m feeling very optimistic about the game this weekend, which would indicate that Sparty wins 34-14.

[Goober McTuber]

If PSU slaughters an SEC team in a bowl game, I will gladly tip my hat to ol' JoePa and his squad.

How terribly generous of you. What if they only win by a field goal? No tip of the SS hat? What if they beat a Big 12 team?

That said, I don't see Alabama as being nearly the 2nd best team in the country.

Well, now you’re just preaching to the choir.

[indyfrisco]

How terribly generous of you. What if they only win by a field goal? No tip of the SS hat? What if they beat a Big 12 team?

The National Champ is whoever wins the SEC. Whoever is in the BCS is just playing for second. Tell me you knew.

[PSUFAN]

I definitely see what you're saying, Sam. PSU is good, but exactly how good? I hope they have a chance to prove their worth beyond all doubt.

I personally am impressed by the win over tOSU on the road. I am possibly more impressed by a win in a tough defensive struggle than I am a blowout in a track meet.

I am sure that many folks will offer a 1 loss USC, for example, as a more deserving team than an undefeated PSU. I think PSU's close win over tOSU is more impressive than USC's close win over Arizona.

[Mr T]

Yes, the tOSU game turned on:

-TP's fumble
-TP's pick
-tOSU's PI penalties

Imagine that - turnovers and penalties were deciding factors in a football game. Isn't that generally the case for every football game? Maybe some games have a broader array of decisive factors...

Yes fumbles and penalties are usually decision makers in games but you are not going to impress anybody by winning a game that way over a team who has exposed every time they have stepped out from the Big 10 the last two years. USC didnt need any help from OSU. They just fucking crushed them.

Mr. T, I picked games that had close outcomes, from different weeks.

Like I said, You picked everyones games from last week except for Bama. Dont act like you dont have an agenda. I know you want PSU to jump Bama. If FSU was is in the same position, I would be pissed.

[Mr T]

How terribly generous of you. What if they only win by a field goal? No tip of the SS hat? What if they beat a Big 12 team?

The National Champ is whoever wins the SEC. Whoever is in the BCS is just playing for second. Tell me you knew.

That is how it is down in SEC country. No doubt about that.

But winning your conference should always be goal number one. The BCS is just a bullshit game played between two after a beauty contest and debate among many.

Speaking of winning your conference, The nation had to deal with two years of the Big XIIs second best making the championship game and we might have to deal with it again this year.

[Laxplayer]

USC didnt need any help from OSU. They just fucking crushed them.

OK, genius let's compare apples and apples. Penn State crushed Oregon State. What did $UC do against Oregon State?
Thanks for playing, now go home.

[Mr T]

Oregon State vs USC...Penn State vs Oregon State.....when the fuck did PSUFan mention Oregon state?

I am giving him a response to why people didnt view PSUs win as some miracle like the OSU-Mich game two years ago that ESPN spanked it to for months before some piece of shit mother fuckers from the worlds biggest truck stop kicked their teeth in.

PS. I dont think USC has been impressive either.

[PSUFAN]

Mr. T,

honestly, my agenda is not to present PSU as better than anyone else. It is, instead, to mention that the 13-9 win over tOSU is as impressive as any of the wins I originally mentioned. Some of those wins took place last weekend, some didn't. There was no selective interpretation to mentioning those games, other than this: I picked close wins from a number of teams that are making the case to be BCS teams.

Southern Cal flattened the Buckeyes. However, I think the Buckeyes are an improved team at this point. They are a different team with Beanie Wells healthy and ready to go. Would he have made a difference in that early matchup? Probably at least a little bit.

When you say that PSU won "that way", what is it that you mean? Do you mean that they "needed" a mistake from Pryor to win? I guess that's true, but it should be reiterated that their gameplan itself was looking for that mistake. That's the strategy the coaches used to win the game. While those mistakes were decisive, though...they were not the only things that happened. After the fumble, PSU had two impressive drives against the fine Buckeye defense where they ran the ball right down their throats and scored 10 decisive points. You can't show those drives on a highlight show, but you cannot understand that game without understanding them. PSU could have gone 3 and out twice and lost the game, but they went hat on hat and marched down the field twice. As far as what they "needed" to do...they didn't "need" to pass in those drives, which impressed me.

Rhetorically, I ask - why is that sort of victory not accorded the same respect that any of the other games I mentioned are? Simply because of a higher point total? Simply because the teams involved have been highly regarded as contenders from the preseason onward?

I did mention PSU/Oregon State and Oregon State/Southern Cal above. Oregon State didn't stand a chance against PSU, and one of the reasons was that PSU's gameplan was a little different in that case. They came out and blazed through the OSU defense, and pinned their ears back and came on defense. Southern Cal's game in Corvallis was a few weeks later and an entirely different situation, I'll admit...but this transitive comparison can be made when folks use other transitive arguments to assure us that PSU is overrated, in my opinion.

As for Alabama, I really don't know if they are better than PSU. I think they might have a harder road to the title game than PSU. They have had at least one close win like the one PSU just had. Why would we praise that win while dismissing PSU's win - what exactly about it was better?

[Left Seater]

Can anyone help me understand what is behind win margins, and how they are interpreted by the media?

Here are some scores for consideration:

PSU: 13
tOSU: 9

UT: 28
OSU: 24

Alabama: 24
Mississippi: 20

USC: 17
Arizona: 10

OU: 58
KSU: 35

Which of these results are among the most impressive to you?

Well to rank them I would say,

1) Texas

2) PSU

3) Alabama

4) OU
4A) USC

Why, that order? Well, Texas was the only of those teams to knock off an undefeated team. Further, OK State is a balanced offense that has been putting up huge numbers all season. Texas held them well below their point average. PSU is second because we all know that winning at night at the Shoe is very difficult. As others have stated OSU is a different team now than they were when USC wiped them up. Alabama is third because in my eyes they beat and up and comming team. The other two games aren't very impressive to me at all. I expected both to win easily and while they didn't per say, they still won.

PSU,

this is a good discussion for a message board, but we really won't be able to rank these games until the end of the season. If OSU wins out and plays in the Rose Bowl, and OK State ends up losing to Tech, OU, etc, then clearly the PSU win would be the best. If OK State wins out and goes BCS bowling and OSU loses to Mich, then clearly the Texas win will be the best.

All in all no need to worry about quality of wins in the middle of a season. However, if Bama and Texas also win out then maybe it is time to look back and reflect on the season schedule. Maybe Coastal Carolina and Temple weren't good choices to schedule.

[PSUFAN]

Lefty, I agree completely. If PSU fails to qualify for the MNC title game, the CFB world will be afire with the debate about why/how this could happen.

In my opinion, the primary reason is not national bias against PSU - the primary reason is that PSU's AD chose to schedule the cheapest opponents available to him, and for that he chose schools who ended up hampering the team's BCS ranking.

You don't get it both ways, IMO - and thus this season might really end up being a soul-searching experience for PSU. The AD is proceeding with the plan that guaranteeing a fat spreadsheet is the primary scheduling consideration. The football program is proceeding under the assumption that it is possible to win every game and have a chance at a MNC.

When PSU was going 3-9, or even 9-4...none of this meant a darn thing. If the program is indeed contending for MNC titles, then who we schedule becomes very important.

In so many words - the AD has felt justified in lining up cupcakes as cheaply as possible, without regard to what his approach might cost the team in BCS rank. He never dreamed that the team might be good enough to show everyone the negative consequences of his approach. Everyone is fat and happy, with his approach, when the team loses 4 games and the strength of schedule is not meaningful.

So, I'm looking at a good argument for firing that AD.

[King Crimson]

Lefty, I agree completely. If PSU fails to qualify for the MNC title game, the CFB world will be afire with the debate about why/how this could happen.

In my opinion, the primary reason is not national bias against PSU - the primary reason is that PSU's AD chose to schedule the cheapest opponents available to him, and for that he chose schools who ended up hampering the team's BCS ranking.

You don't get it both ways, IMO - and thus this season might really end up being a soul-searching experience for PSU. The AD is proceeding with the plan that guaranteeing a fat spreadsheet is the primary scheduling consideration. The football program is proceeding under the assumption that it is possible to win every game and have a chance at a MNC.

When PSU was going 3-9, or even 9-4...none of this meant a darn thing. If the program is indeed contending for MNC titles, then who we schedule becomes very important.

In so many words - the AD has felt justified in lining up cupcakes as cheaply as possible, without regard to what his approach might cost the team in BCS rank. He never dreamed that the team might be good enough to show everyone the negative consequences of his approach. Everyone is fat and happy, with his approach, when the team loses 4 games and the strength of schedule is not meaningful.

So, I'm looking at a good argument for firing that AD.

good post. i don't fire the AD by necessity, but he's got to "change his business model". the go undefeated OOC, get to the BCS model was based on the idea that winning through the Big 10 would be enough to get to the BCS game. it's not empirically invalid. Ohio State has done it. and the Big Ten is usually strong enough for that. setting aside my own distaste for the "AD as marketing principle" that is the reality of today's college athletic administration...home games, donors/boosters, "branding" the school....etc. going 4-0 guaranteed OOC gets you a bowl game and that revenue....which you need to support those other sports at PSU (like hoops).

If PSU had been good and championship competitive for the last decade, all this might not be so much a worry. OU was undefeated, having played the toughest schedule in the nation (outside the SEC) in 2000....and were double digit underdogs to 1 loss FSU in the '00 Orange Bowl. Why? because it had been a long time since OU had proven it.

Today's TV punditry has a short memory and prone to ridiculous hyperbole. and, as every Sooner can attest after the Blake years....you'd hear that "last time OU won a MNC today's college seniors were 4 or 6 years old". ESPN doesn't care about history....and it doesn't peddle tradition more than a couple years at a time and always to the viable markets....and PSU is there now.

[Mr T]

Some of those wins took place last weekend, some didn't. There was no selective interpretation to mentioning those games, other than this: I picked close wins from a number of teams that are making the case to be BCS teams.

Fair enough but all those wins except for Bama happened last week.

Southern Cal flattened the Buckeyes. However, I think the Buckeyes are an improved team at this point. They are a different team with Beanie Wells healthy and ready to go. Would he have made a difference in that early matchup? Probably at least a little bit.

Doubt it. You would have still had OSU's old QB in. Pryor is young and will make mistakes but he has turned the buckeyes around

Rhetorically, I ask - why is that sort of victory not accorded the same respect that any of the other games I mentioned are? Simply because of a higher point total? Simply because the teams involved have been highly regarded as contenders from the preseason onward?

I did mention PSU/Oregon State and Oregon State/Southern Cal above. Oregon State didn't stand a chance against PSU, and one of the reasons was that PSU's gameplan was a little different in that case. They came out and blazed through the OSU defense, and pinned their ears back and came on defense. Southern Cal's game in Corvallis was a few weeks later and an entirely different situation, I'll admit...but this transitive comparison can be made when folks use other transitive arguments to assure us that PSU is overrated, in my opinion.

As for Alabama, I really don't know if they are better than PSU. I think they might have a harder road to the title game than PSU. They have had at least one close win like the one PSU just had. Why would we praise that win while dismissing PSU's win - what exactly about it was better?

Alabama's win over Mississippi wasnt respected. Oklahomas win over KSU wasnt respected. USCs win over Arizona wasnt respected. The only wins that was in the list you gave worthy of respect were Texas/OkieSt and OSU/PSU. I am just wondering why you included everyones win from last week except for Bama. People gave bama shit for about losing to Ole Miss and Kentucky. This last week showed a lot in that they could play a full four quarters and not just the first half. Speaking of oregon state, I did not know you had included them in the discussion. I was just speaking on why people didnt go ape shit over PSU beating OSU. I know this thread is just a roundabout way of saying we deserve to be ranked #2 and that ok. Like I said, I would be pissed to.

[PSUFAN]

I know this thread is just a roundabout way of saying we deserve to be ranked #2 and that ok.

Really - it isn't. I can start that thread if and when it is right to do so. I really am simply looking to engender discussion about what one should respect as far as wins go. If I am arguing for anything particularly from the PSU perspective it is that the win over OSU wasn't some sort of limping win over a conference floozie, and that 13-9 for PSU on the road over tOSU is actually a solid win, even if the score doesn't glitter on the page.

The final BCS ranking will surely spark some healthy debate about who belongs where, I will happily be a part of that.

[Douchebag]

GEORGIA BULLDOGS

NUMBA ONE STUNNAS, YOU FUCKCAKES

[PSUFAN]

ok, NOW I'm fucking PISSED.

Next time I see you, I'm gonna squib kick your fucking EPIGLOTTIS, DickBag. Herschel Walker was a HOMO.

[King Crimson]

ok, NOW I'm fucking PISSED.

Next time I see you, I'm gonna squib kick your fucking EPIGLOTTIS, DickBag. Herschel Walker was a HOMO.

from my PSU grad school buddy, this seems to work too: Nebraska was the better team in 94.

[PSUFAN]

If GG wasn't a corpse, I'd sicc 'em on you.

[Screw_Michigan]

GEORGIA BULLDOGS

NUMBA ONE STUNNAS, YOU FUCKCAKES

It's STUNTAS, ass-breath.

[Left Seater]

PSU,

I doubt that the PSU AD can build that schedule without the ok from JoPa. IF he said, "No D-1AA schools" we all know they wouldn't be on the schedule. No one ever refers to a weak ass schedule as KSU's ADs way of building a program. Everyone says the Bill Snyder scheduling plan.

Again, I don't know a damn thing about the PSU AD, but I also don't hear JoPa saying how embarassed he is by the non conf schedule. Just sayin.

[PSUFAN]

Here's an analogy that occurred to me this morning. Personally, I think it's rare that a MLB team puts together a great defense...and it should be respected. Great pitching is a season-long endeavor, at the least - but any moron can juice up and smack juiced up balls over the fence. By playoff time, we see where good pitching can get you.

Similarly, it is clear that it's hard to defend spread offenses in college football. tOSU's offense is a little different than that of the Sand Aggies, of course, but I think the showing that the Lion and Buckeye defenses had last Saturday was one of the better displays of defense we've seen this year in primetime. Yet, many observers regard that 13-9 win to be less than impressive.

Lefty, as a matter of fact, I think Joe was the one who wanted to schedule CC. Moose Koegel is one of his kids, a former team captain...one of Jack Ham's roomies. I do think that if Joe had his druthers, we'd see a lot of matchups of that sort, where he throws people bones. However, he has said recently that he chimes in on scheduling, but Curley makes the final call. I'll see if I can dig up a link to the recent mention he made of that.

[Goober McTuber]

However, he has said recently that he chimes in on scheduling, but Curley makes the final call. I'll see if I can dig up a link to the recent mention he made of that.

Curley? I would have thought Moe or Larry would make that call. Nyuk-nyuk-nyuk.

[Adelpiero]

Are Big10 teams simply down?

No, other than Penn st and tOSu, which neither has a big win out of conference, the conference is POOR.

many have hate for Big Least, for obvious reasons, but the Big10 after their top 2 are horrible

they go 2 deep,

michigan st
minnesota
illanoy
michigan
iowa
northwestern
wisky
Indiana
Purdue these teams are mediocre to horrible. When it comes to bowl season, they are going to get pole axed


It's not unthinkable that Big10 could lose every bowl game this season. They don't matchup against any BCS conferences. PSU and tOSU will face USC, Tejas,OU, FLAetc All of those teams will be favorites vs PSU and tOSU.

[PSUFAN]

I guess this guy disagrees with me.

It used to be Ohio State that played this role to perfection. The past two BCS championship games have provided the Buckeyes with the opportunity to be humiliated in prime time (’06 season: Florida 41, OSU 14; ’07 season: LSU 38, OSU 24). But now that the Buckeyes are out of the national championship picture (thankfully), OSU has carefully paved the way for Penn State to take its place. The Nittany Lions are undefeated, but don’t be fooled. They barely beat the same Ohio State team that got destroyed by USC 35-3 earlier this season, in an unsightly 13-6 victory last week that surely set back offensive football by 10 years.