the Clash: great or overrated?

King Crimson · Post by **King Crimson** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 12:38 am

I can't really decide. i've never liked London Calling as much "as you were supposed to".

and, really, who ever said they were "punk"? Live at Leeds is harder than anything the Clash ever recorded. the stooges tear out your woofers and the Clash really don't. i'm down with the Brixton/working class white Brit cooption of reggae, we had that here in the DC hardcore scene with Bad Brains and whatnot. but, are the Clash more political than Linton Kwesi Johnson?

i like a lot of the stuff, so i'm mos def on the fence.

opinions?

Dr_Phibes · Post by **Dr_Phibes** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 2:24 am

It's hard to imagine anyone who managed to stay up through 'Rude Boy' without throwing up. Pretty much sums up The Clash attitude and music as indulgent, simplistic crap.

Put them up against their peers - The Damned, etc. they don't rate politically or musically.

Rack Fu · Post by **Rack Fu** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 3:50 am

Their first three albums - The Clash, Give 'Em Enough Rope and London Calling - were about as good as it gets. London Calling was simply perfect. To this day it's one of my favorite albums to listen to. It not only changed punk rock, it changed rock music in general. The mix of styles was something that had not really been seen, let alone by a supposed "punk" band. IMO, I consider it to be underrated, even with all the accolades it has received over the years.

Their last three albums went from bad to terrible to downright sad. They completely lost "it" after London Calling. Sandinista was a bloated, indulgent pile of crap. It would've been a great record as a single album. It was WAY too much as a triple album.

War Wagon · Post by **War Wagon** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 3:52 am

Dr_Phibes wrote: they don't rate politically

You rate bands for their politics? What a pathetic little dweeb.

Never much into the Clash's music, btw.

Dr_Phibes · Post by **Dr_Phibes** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 4:10 am

Not really, I don't think politics and music mix. Apparently you and The Clash think otherwise.

War Wagon · Post by **War Wagon** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 6:13 am

Feebs, you're the one who pecked out that they don't rate politically, and now you're saying that politics and music don't mix?

Get your story straight, comrade.

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 4:37 pm

I like The Clash and Black Market Clash. There's some great stuff on those two records, regardless of how you'd prefer to categorize them.

I wouldn't really call The Damned "peers" of The Clash. The Damned had basically abandoned "punk" by 1977, whereas The Clash were seen as punk heroes going in to the early 80s.

BSmack · Post by **BSmack** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 5:21 pm

King Crimson wrote:I can't really decide. i've never liked London Calling as much "as you were supposed to".

and, really, who ever said they were "punk"? Live at Leeds is harder than anything the Clash ever recorded. the stooges tear out your woofers and the Clash really don't. i'm down with the Brixton/working class white Brit cooption of reggae, we had that here in the DC hardcore scene with Bad Brains and whatnot. but, are the Clash more political than Linton Kwesi Johnson?

i like a lot of the stuff, so i'm mos def on the fence.

opinions?

I guess the answer to the question "Are the Clash punk?" would be directly linked to one's definition of the word "punk". I always thought of punk as being a "fuck the so called rules, we can do this" attitude that inspired kids with no musical training (or in the case of Sid Vicious aptitude) to think they could play music any way they damn well pleased. Which means I definitely think the Clash fall under the punk banner. But I can understand that if you look at punk in a stylistic manner, that most Clash albums would not necessarily be considered punk.

BTW: Rack the Linton Kwesi Johnson reference. It takes me back to the days of playing hacky sack in the rain, Armageddon Parties and friends who turned me on to more world music in one year than I had heard in a lifetime before. Hearing Making History truly was a life changing experience right up there with the first time hearing The White Album or Dark Side of the Moon.

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 6:23 pm

The Clash were a breakthrough -- they took the "no musical ability" of the punk movement and brought it into the mainstream.

They sucked.

Dr_Phibes · Post by **Dr_Phibes** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 7:08 pm

PSUFAN wrote: I wouldn't really call The Damned "peers" of The Clash. The Damned had basically abandoned "punk" by 1977, whereas The Clash were seen as punk heroes going in to the early 80s.

I don't know - I suppose everyone moved on, but I'd consider 'Machine Gun Etiquette' a brilliant punk album. And The Damned had attitude to spare, (we don't care, we're just gonna break stuff) if that's a level of measure.

I mean, The Slits were bad - but had the same sound and they're still great to listen to, they didn't take themselves as seriously as The Clash did.

How do you get your head around the hype that surrounds them?

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 7:11 pm

Don't misread me - I'm a fan of the Damned. I just would say that they moved past "punk" pretty early in the game.

Shlomart Ben Yisrael · Thu Jul 05, 2007 9:12 pm

The Clash = "punk" Beatles

There, I said it.

London Calling is their "Abbey Road".

MickBastard · Post by **MickBastard** » Fri Jul 06, 2007 2:29 pm

I consider the Clash great; I don't care about whether they're punk or not; that means shit to me. Politics and images aside, they have some great songs that will always be stuck in my head and kick ass.

King Crimson · Post by **King Crimson** » Fri Jul 06, 2007 5:08 pm

some good writing about the Clash is Lester Bangs travelogue with the band (that appears in the Carburetor Dung and Psychotic Reaction compilation) and i think some stuff in Greil Marcus' Lipstick Traces (though that book focuses more on the Sex Pistols and early 20th Century avant-garde).

don't get me wrong, i like the Clash (particularly The Clash, Give em ROpe, and Black market)....it's just i haven't listened to a lot of this stuff in a decade and a buddy threw the whole catalog on a DVD for me....so i've been going back.

personally, to the "punk" issue i'd say the working class component (as far as a generally received "classification") is stronger than the the "no talent" angle. in my opinion, that seems to bear out. and, to me, it seems the reggae emphasis bridges the class-race distinction.

i'd say Dread Beat an' Blood is my fave LKJ record.

Mike the Lab Rat · Post by **Mike the Lab Rat** » Fri Jul 06, 2007 6:12 pm

My 0.02:

IMNSHO, trying to praise the Clash by naming them a "great punk band" is like trying to praise some kid by naming him valedictorian of summer school.

I'm just not a fan of punk. I find it to be adolescent, alcoholic, "look at me, look at me" pseudoanarchistic posing set to noise. The Sex Pistols, for example, were a waste of carbon.

That's just my opinion, though.

I know that Rolling Stone critics and the "Hot Topic" shoppers would disagree vehemently.

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Fri Jul 06, 2007 6:18 pm

Mike the Lab Rat wrote:I'm just not a fan of punk. I find it to be adolescent, alcoholic, "look at me, look at me" pseudoanarchistic posing set to noise. The Sex Pistols, for example, were a waste of carbon.

I agree with your general sentiment. I just put the Pistols in a different class, since they were the most "mainstream" act that wasn't trying to infiltrate the mainstream with punk(SUP CLASH?????).

The Pistols get points for the tongue-in-cheek nature of their act. Those that followed actually took the shit seriously, and thought they were actually making good music, which the Pistols were never so arrogant as to think. They were a gimmick, and they knew it -- too bad their followers didn't see it the same way (SUP CLASH???).

King Crimson · Post by **King Crimson** » Fri Jul 06, 2007 7:24 pm

Dinsdale wrote:They were a gimmick, and they knew it -- too bad their followers didn't see it the same way.

this is kind of the point of the Marcus book, Lipstick Traces. to a degree. it's a good book but could use some editing and mixes "theses" all over the place. the best stuff is on the German Dada scene, the Lettrist International and Situationists, IMO. though the latter can be pursued more accurately elsewhere. and Marcus likes the Pistols for that reason, they "negate" the music industry and GM's loathing for 70's rock is well-documented.

the thing about "punk"--it somehow seemed to outlive other press monikers like "mod" or "rocker" to it's own inaccuracy. are Green Day punk? today's college students think so.

whatever the "decisive" outcome of this thread, i would not agree that the Clash were a gimmick in the way McLaren's sex shop shock value Pistols were.

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Fri Jul 06, 2007 7:31 pm

Mr Crimson -- just so you know, intelligent, educated dialog is forbidden.

In the future, please limit your answers to "your a fucking faggot," or the equivalent.

TIA

King Crimson · Post by **King Crimson** » Fri Jul 06, 2007 7:48 pm

Dinsdale wrote:Mr Crimson -- just so you know, intelligent, educated dialog is forbidden.

In the future, please limit your answers to "your a fucking faggot," or the equivalent.

TIA

are you telling me i should start posting on the NFL board?

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Fri Jul 06, 2007 7:56 pm

The Pistols get points for the tongue-in-cheek nature of their act. Those that followed actually took the shit seriously, and thought they were actually making good music, which the Pistols were never so arrogant as to think. They were a gimmick, and they knew it -- too bad their followers didn't see it the same way (SUP CLASH???).

So...The Great Rock 'n' Roll Swindle, finally debunked.

Dr_Phibes · Post by **Dr_Phibes** » Fri Jul 06, 2007 10:22 pm

Dinsdale wrote:
I agree with your general sentiment. I just put the Pistols in a different class, since they were the most "mainstream" act that wasn't trying to infiltrate the mainstream with punk(SUP CLASH?????).

The Pistols get points for the tongue-in-cheek nature of their act. Those that followed actually took the shit seriously, and thought they were actually making good music, which the Pistols were never so arrogant as to think. They were a gimmick, and they knew it -- too bad their followers didn't see it the same way (SUP CLASH???).

Nice, that nailed it.

Shlomart Ben Yisrael · Fri Jul 06, 2007 11:37 pm

Dr_Phibes wrote:
Dinsdale wrote:
I agree with your general sentiment. I just put the Pistols in a different class, since they were the most "mainstream" act that wasn't trying to infiltrate the mainstream with punk(SUP CLASH?????).

The Pistols get points for the tongue-in-cheek nature of their act. Those that followed actually took the shit seriously, and thought they were actually making good music, which the Pistols were never so arrogant as to think. They were a gimmick, and they knew it -- too bad their followers didn't see it the same way (SUP CLASH???).
Nice, that nailed it.

And yet, you're the dude that posted this here.

The sock hop is over, Phibes. The janitor sweeping up the papier-mache decoration should have told you that.

Dr_Phibes · Post by **Dr_Phibes** » Fri Jul 06, 2007 11:53 pm

Hey, they knew how to work a crowd and knew when to take the piss out of themselves.

Sorry to burst your bubble comrade, but daddy wasn't a bank robber, he served in the diplomatic corps.

Shlomart Ben Yisrael · Sat Jul 07, 2007 12:58 am

Dr_Phibes wrote:Hey, they knew how to work a crowd and knew when to take the piss out of themselves.

Sorry to burst your bubble comrade, but daddy wasn't a bank robber, he served in the diplomatic corps.

Ahhh, the champagne is always bubblier in the limo when the worker's are footing the bill.

Try not to break a fingernail typing up your snitch-sheets to the commisars, tovarich.

Bourgeois prick.

:x

Shlomart Ben Yisrael · Sat Jul 07, 2007 1:02 am

BTW, get your Trotskyist carcass over to Cul de Smack and help out B_Smack.
He's getting his ass kicked by Truman, for fuck's sake! Truman!

TO THE FRONT, COMRADE WORKERS! TO THE FRONT!

BSmack · Post by **BSmack** » Sat Jul 07, 2007 1:38 am

Martyred wrote:BTW, get your Trotskyist carcass over to Cul de Smack and help out B_Smack.
He's getting his ass kicked by Truman, for fuck's sake! Truman!

I'm quite certain nothing either of you could say would sway Truman.

Dr_Phibes · Post by **Dr_Phibes** » Sat Jul 07, 2007 2:08 am

Well I posted some long winded stuff about free markets, but probably should have went with stick rather than carrot.

He posted pics of bugs and told me to go away.

BSmack · Post by **BSmack** » Sat Jul 07, 2007 2:25 am

Dr_Phibes wrote:Well I posted some long winded stuff about free markets, but probably should have went with stick rather than carrot.

He posted pics of bugs and told me to go away.

Next time tell him you've embedded a link to a Lynyrd Skynyrd mp3 in your post. It won't be there, but you can bet he'll read the post.

Moorese · Post by **Moorese** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:57 pm

Dinsdale wrote:They sucked.

Word. Hard.

And thanks for "Big Audio Dynamite," you cunting bastards.

battery chucka' one · Post by **battery chucka' one** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 2:17 am

Manic Street Preachers before Richey James disappeared were everything that the Clash ever wanted to be (and never really were). Think about it.

p.s. ANYTHING you like just 'because you're supposed to', usually isn't all that good. Don't believe me? We're all 'supposed to' like Never Mind the Bollocks. How's that album, really? I've had it and I know how it is. Peace.

King Crimson · Post by **King Crimson** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 2:58 am

i'm not a huge fan of B.A.D. but you to have admit Mick Jones was not behind the MTV times in putting out those sampling records with a hip-hop/brixton beat records.

the bottom line is the only song i thought was decent. b, still.

John Lydon and Public Image L were hardly infallable....but they put out some good stuff too. in fact, i hated that stuff in the late 80's, but i see more where it comes from now. not saying i load the PIL boxset in winamp and hit shuffle for the weekend. but, some interesting stuff there. as with the Fall catalog.

T1B

the Clash: great or overrated?

the Clash: great or overrated?

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