MVP Race

Shoalzie · Post by **Shoalzie** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 5:00 pm

My top 4 in each league as we enter the last month of the season...

AL:
1. Alex Rodriguez
2. Vladimir Guerrero
3. Manny Ramirez/David Ortiz
4. Travis Hafner

NL:
1. Andruw Jones
2. Albert Pujols
3. Miguel Cabrera
4. Derrek Lee

Current Cy Young choices: AL-Bartolo Colon, NL-Chris Carpenter

Your thoughts/picks?

Cross Traffic · Post by **Cross Traffic** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 5:14 pm

Vlad is your AL MVP, without him the Angels would be lucky to be .500.

Adelpiero · Post by **Adelpiero** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:33 pm

MVP in NL isn't close

Pujols is a hands down winner. Anyone who has a clue would feel the same.

Last year, when people cried for PUjols, i said, no way, Pumpkinheads #'s were astonishing, no way he could not win the award, especially with no protection and being walked 200 times.

This year is no different, Pujols #'s dominate Jones #'s.

AL: Vlad

Shoalzie · Post by **Shoalzie** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:50 pm

With MVP, it's easy to look strictly at numbers but you have to compute the factor of how valuable the guy is to their respective team...

I gave A-Rod the edge of Vlad only because you can't overlook how good the Angels pitching has been. Vlad can very easily go on a late tear this month like he did last year to secure a playoff spot for the Angels. You can't ignore the fact A-Rod is top four in all 3 triple crown categories and the Yankees have been written off a few times during the season and pitching hasn't done them any favors. I had Vlad at the beginning of the season as the MVP...it wouldn't shock me to see him get hot this month and the Angels pull away from Oakland now that Crosby is hurt. The Red Sox have three MVP candidates...sort of like the Cardinals last year, hard to choose just one. Ortiz and Ramirez are having very similar years and Damon has become the best table-setter in the game. I've been very impressed with Hafner but a lot of credit can be given to other guys like Peralta and Sizemore for putting the Indians in the race.

With Jones, Atlanta has gotten a lot out of their young players but Jones is having a career year. I'm not discounting Pujols' year...he's been amazing. He's second or third in all three major categories and the Cardinals have had to deal with Rolen being hurt. But I use the same argument I use with Vlad...the Cardinals pitching has been awesome. Certainly, if Pujols wasn't in the lineup the Cardinals wouldn't be running away with the best record but the emergence of Carpenter and Morris takes a little bit away from Pujols. Atlanta has had numerous injuries including to many of their starting pitchers. I think there's huge dropdown to Cabrera and then an even bigger drop to Lee. The Cubs are done but Lee is having a season similar to what A-Rod had when he won the MVP with the Rangers.

Adelpiero · Post by **Adelpiero** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 10:05 pm

Walker,Sanders,Rolen,Molina all out for significant games.

Jones has had some kids putting up solid numbers, Pujols has Tguchi,Nunez,Luna,Molina as his protection in 4th,5th spots in lineup.

Hollywoods numbers are down, Pujols is hands down carrying the team offensively, he's creating and knocking in runs.

Shoalzie · Post by **Shoalzie** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 11:57 am

Adelpiero wrote:Walker,Sanders,Rolen,Molina all out for significant games.

Jones has had some kids putting up solid numbers, Pujols has Tguchi,Nunez,Luna,Molina as his protection in 4th,5th spots in lineup.

Hollywoods numbers are down, Pujols is hands down carrying the team offensively, he's creating and knocking in runs.

No one is disputing that. I think if Jones' batting average and average with runners in scoring position were better, I think I'd have a better argument. Pujols has the better numbers in everything accept home runs and RBI. The Cardinals have always been in first place...Jones helped rally the Braves from a midseason slump when injuries were bringing them down to vault them back into first. From Day 1, Pujols has probably been the most consistent player in the majors along with A-Rod. We've still got a month until the end of the season, I can be swayed to pick Pujols if he continues to make a run at the triple crown. No doubt that the Cardinals wouldn't be nearly as good as they are without having Pujols in the lineup. Both Pujols and Guerrero were my preseason MVP choices...believe me, I'd actually prefer that my preseason picks turn out to be correct.

Bizzarofelice · Post by **Bizzarofelice** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 3:41 pm

The people that carried the Braves into the playoffs are Tim Hudson and John Smoltz.

A man hitting 270 never carried a team. Once again, a man hitting 270 does not carry a team.

UcantSpellCarlosLeeStyle! · Tue Sep 06, 2005 4:09 pm

Bizzarofelice wrote:A man hitting 270 never carried a team. Once again, a man hitting 270 does not carry a team.

:roll:

What about a guy with 44 HR and 111 RBI?

Not to mention, the glove...

This is a team that had Jones and... no one else for a lot of the year while at bat.

Sure, the Cards lost Rolen and Sanders and Walker too... but the dudes who replaced them are all batting .300, heck, Taguchi batted like .500 or some shit for the month of August.

You can make the same argument that Carpenter and the rest of the staff carried the team, especially the bullpen. You're trolling, right? Sure ya are....

Bizzarofelice · Post by **Bizzarofelice** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 4:43 pm

UcantSpellCarlosLeeStyle! wrote:What about a guy with 44 HR and 111 RBI?

Are those numbers markedly different than Albert's?

Sure, the Cards lost Rolen and Sanders and Walker too... but the dudes who replaced them are all batting .300, heck, Taguchi batted like .500 or some shit for the month of August.

Yeah. Francouer is hitting like 190 and Betemit is barely above Mendoza. Furcal never gets on base and Giles is a hack.

You can make the same argument that Carpenter and the rest of the staff carried the team

Most certainly... but I never said that Pujols carried the Cards. All I was doing was saying that Jones didn't carry the Braves. The pitching staff carried both teams.

UcantSpellCarlosLeeStyle! · Tue Sep 06, 2005 5:11 pm

Bizzarofelice wrote:Most certainly... but I never said that Pujols carried the Cards.

You made your position clear that Jones is not the MVP. Who is, then?

I'll answer for you. You think it's Pujols. Does it matter than you "never said Pujols carried them"?

Jones carried the team until Francouer showed up in July and Furcal actually started hitting (see also -- July).

Yeah -- the Braves have a nice lead now that their line-up seems to be clicking on all cylinders. Jones kept them hanging around until the Nationals realized they're actually the Expos... It's not fair, but that's why I give the edge to Jones. The Cards were up 12 games in like February, I believe...

Bizzarofelice · Post by **Bizzarofelice** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 6:31 pm

Jones: HR and RBI
Pujols: BA, OBP, SLG, average with RISP

Ask the sabremetrics guys what the stats say.
OPS:

Pujols: 1.052
Jones: .950

Bizzarofelice · Post by **Bizzarofelice** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 6:41 pm

First, let's look at VORP (Value Over Replacement Player):

Jones: 58.6
Pujols: 89.5

Win Shares:
Pujols: 32
Jones: 21

MLVR (how many runs per game does this player mean to his offense)
Pujols: .519
Jones: .294

How about just good ol' fashioned on-base and slugging?
OBP:
Pujols: .431
Jones: .343

SLG:
Pujols: .621
Jones: .613

And what of their teammates?
Jones' lineup around him includes Chipper Jones (41.4 VORP), Furcal (41.3), Marcus Giles (47.6), and Jeff Francoeur (24.8 in half a year).

Pujols' lineup has Edmonds (48.2), followed by Eckstein (33.4), Grudz (23.0), Walker (19.0 in about the same time as Francoeur), and Sanders (26.7).

In short, by just about any measure you want to use... it's awfully hard to argue that Jones has been better than Albert.

Bizzarofelice · Post by **Bizzarofelice** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 6:48 pm

Jones is hitting .225 with RISP.
NOT GREAT FOR A CLEAN UP HITTER

Not only that, but he's had more opportunities to drive in runs than both Lee and Pujols. He's had 160 ABs with RISP to Lee's 112 and AP's 118. If Jones is supporting his team with horrible hitters around him, the hitters around the other two are worse.

UcantSpellCarlosLeeStyle! · Tue Sep 06, 2005 7:11 pm

Nice stats!!!!!!!!!!!!! I value the MLVR and VORP categories the most!!! I gotta remember to pick up the LOTR collectable action figures on the way home from work so I have something to do tonight besides look at queer numbers.

Sin,
RotoUberGeek

Wow. Jones leads the league in 2 out of 3 Triple Crown stats and has lead his team from "out of the playoffs" to "first place in their division".

Sin,
99% of the people who vote

Bizzarofelice · Post by **Bizzarofelice** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 7:44 pm

UcantSpellCarlosLeeStyle! wrote:Nice stats!!!!!!!!!!!!! I value the MLVR and VORP categories the most!!! I gotta remember to pick up the LOTR collectable action figures on the way home from work so I have something to do tonight besides look at queer numbers.

Sin,
RotoUberGeek

Excellent point. You really added to the discussion.

Love,
Nobody

Wow. Jones leads the league in 2 out of 3 Triple Crown stats and has lead his team from "out of the playoffs" to "first place in their division".

Sin,
99% of the people who vote

So you are of the opinion that defense, not being one of those three categories, isn't something that should be accounted for? Or are you just discounting the entire discussion in hopes of reminding us that the voters are more likely to look at Jones' uniform before voting?

I can't really tell what point you're trying to make because you're about as focused as Dr. D without the daily talking points.

UcantSpellCarlosLeeStyle! · Tue Sep 06, 2005 8:49 pm

Bizzarofelice wrote:I can't really tell what point you're trying to make.

Let me narrow this down for you. It is my opinion that Jones will win the NL MVP. Did you not read this?:

UcantSpellCarlosLeeStyle! wrote:
Sin,
99% of the people who vote

It is also my opinion that I may not agree with it, but that's the way it is. You conveniently skipped over this part as well I'm assuming?

UcantSpellCarlosLeeStyle! wrote:It's not fair...

Other things that are not fair. Having no cognitive reasoning skills.

Bizzarofelice · Post by **Bizzarofelice** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 9:09 pm

UcantSpellCarlosLeeStyle! wrote:Having no cognitive reasoning skills.

I wouldn't say you have no cognitive reasoning, just either a changing argument, an inability to properly support your argument or split personalities. This "I don't believe Jones should win but he will" shows up briefly in the last post and suddenly its what you've been harping all along.

I love you like a trainer loves tight pants on a chick so I'll assume you meant to say it earlier and give you the benefit of the doubt, but I'm not about to assume that my cognitive abilities are in any way suspect due to my inability to read your mind.

UcantSpellCarlosLeeStyle! · Wed Sep 07, 2005 12:23 pm

How doubly ironic is this... I have to tell you who your MVP is... and now you're complaining about "your inability to read my mind"??

Bizzarofelice · Post by **Bizzarofelice** » Wed Sep 07, 2005 1:33 pm

UcantSpellCarlosLeeStyle! wrote:How doubly ironic is this... I have to tell you who your MVP is...

Considering how quickly I came up with stats to support my point, do you think I didn't know?

UcantSpellCarlosLeeStyle! · Wed Sep 07, 2005 2:14 pm

Well Bace... I didn't check the times between our posts. But if you think an 80 minute TAT is "quick"... then I'm going to assume you work for the government.

It doesn't matter, what you knew. It matters what you posted. Luckily for you... while I'm not a mind-reader, I'm a heck of a lot more perceptive than you are.

I'll save my I told you so's for November.

Bizzarofelice · Post by **Bizzarofelice** » Wed Sep 07, 2005 2:42 pm

Super. I think Pujols should and will win whilst you think Jones will win whether he deserves it or not.

Settled.
Done.

indyfrisco · Post by **indyfrisco** » Wed Sep 07, 2005 5:58 pm

[what Jones supporters are thinking]I think Jones should win because I hate the Cardinals.[/what Jones supporters are thinking]

By the way, if you are saying the MVP AND the Cy should go to players on the same team, your definition of one or the other awards is somewhat flawed?

Cicero · Post by **Cicero** » Wed Sep 07, 2005 7:20 pm

AL - ARod
NL - Pujols

Cy Young
NL - Carpenter
AL - Colon

rozy · Post by **rozy** » Thu Sep 08, 2005 1:23 am

You are all wrong.

2005 NL MVP:

AL MVP: Ortiz with ease (ok it rhymed, barely over Vlad)

NL Cy: Carpenter over Willis......at this point
AL Cy: Colon with ease

NL Rookie : WGARA
AL Rookie : Kotchman

Back to the beginning. Eckstein is the Most Valuable Player in the NL this year.

Adelpiero · Post by **Adelpiero** » Thu Sep 08, 2005 1:29 am

IndyFrisco wrote:[what Jones supporters are thinking]I think Jones should win because I hate the Cardinals.[/what Jones supporters are thinking]

By the way, if you are saying the MVP AND the Cy should go to players on the same team, your definition of one or the other awards is somewhat flawed?

I bet your some sort of rocket scientist there in Jasper :roll:

UcantSpellCarlosLeeStyle! · Thu Sep 08, 2005 11:42 am

IndyFrisco wrote:[what Jones supporters are thinking]I think Jones should win because I hate the Cardinals.[/what Jones supporters are thinking]

:roll: :moth: :paul:

indyfrisco · Post by **indyfrisco** » Thu Sep 08, 2005 5:41 pm

Adelpiero wrote:I bet your some sort of rocket scientist there in Jasper :roll:

Intelligence Smack

Rule #1: Do not misuse spelling, grammar or punctuation in the process.

Rule #2: See rule #1.

Stupid ass homers… :roll:

Bizzarofelice · Post by **Bizzarofelice** » Thu Sep 08, 2005 5:54 pm

rozy wrote:Colon with ease

Bitch be lubed up and rearin' to go.

Bizzarofelice · Post by **Bizzarofelice** » Fri Sep 09, 2005 5:54 pm

update:

BA .338-.270 Pujols by almost 70 points
HRs 45-39 Jones by 6 HRs
RBIs 114-106 Jones by 8 RBIs
Xtra Base Hits 76-70 Pujols By 6 hits
K'd 97-59 Pujols with the least amount by almost 30 ks
Stolen Bases 14-3 Pujols by 11 steals(Pujols has been caught twice, Jones 3 times)
Slugging % .635-588 Pujols by almost 50 points
Runs 116-84 Pujols by over 30 runs
OBP .433-.354 Pujols by almost 80 points

rozy · Post by **rozy** » Sat Sep 10, 2005 1:29 am

Bizzarofelice wrote:update:

BA .338-.270 Pujols by almost 70 points
HRs 45-39 Jones by 6 HRs
RBIs 114-106 Jones by 8 RBIs
Xtra Base Hits 76-70 Pujols By 6 hits
K'd 97-59 Pujols with the least amount by almost 30 ks
Stolen Bases 14-3 Pujols by 11 steals(Pujols has been caught twice, Jones 3 times)
Slugging % .635-588 Pujols by almost 50 points
Runs 116-84 Pujols by over 30 runs
OBP .433-.354 Pujols by almost 80 points

Nails!

But Eckstein is MVP

Cicero · Post by **Cicero** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 7:37 pm

Pujols deserves the nod. He is the Leader on that team. Jones leads dick.

Doctor Rosenpenis · Post by **Doctor Rosenpenis** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 6:54 pm

You haters can suck my cack cum November.

Sin,
50+ HR, 140+ RBI

Shoalzie · Post by **Shoalzie** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 9:53 pm

I think both Atlanta and St. Louis should be able to safely win their divisions but what was the last meaningful game the Cardinals have played? The Braves are six games ahead of Florida but they play them 6 more times this season. The Cardinals have had a double digit lead in the Central and it's been a foregone conclusion that they'd win the division since the All-Star break. I've said it before, I'm not discounting what Pujols does offensively but Jones is playing in meaningful games down the stretch and he's carrying the Braves offensively.

Here's a little more fuel to show how much Jones is carrying the Braves offensively...

Jones has 121 RBI...the next most on the team is 68 (LaRoche)...Jones accounts for 18.5% of the team's RBI

Pujols has 108 RBI...the next most on the team is 80 (Edmonds)...Pujols accounts for 16.1% of the team's RBI

Jones has 49 home runs...the next most on the team is 17 (C. Jones)...Jones accounts for 30.1% of the team's home runs

Pujols has 39 home runs...the next most on the team is 26 (Edmonds)...Pujols accounts for 25.3% of the team's home runs

Cardinals team ERA: 3.37 / Braves team ERA: 3.88

Jones has to do more for his team than Pujols does and the Braves are still playing important games down the stretch...Jones is your MVP and if he continues to produce in these big games, it only strengthens his case.

moon · Post by **moon** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 9:59 pm

So Pujols is better and having a better season but because he is on a good team he can't win???

he is the leader on the best team in baseball. how is that not valuable?? His team has had triple A calibre guys in the whole season and he still puts up numbers.

It isn't even close Pujols is having a much better season and is at least as valuable to his team as Jones. Maybe next year he should jake it a bit so that his team plays some meaningful games rather than playing so well that they jump out to a big lead.

Shoalzie · Post by **Shoalzie** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 10:07 pm

moon wrote:So Pujols is better and having a better season but because he is on a good team he can't win???

he is the leader on the best team in baseball. how is that not valuable?? His team has had triple A calibre guys in the whole season and he still puts up numbers.

It isn't even close Pujols is having a much better season and is at least as valuable to his team as Jones. Maybe next year he should jake it a bit so that his team plays some meaningful games rather than playing so well that they jump out to a big lead.

He's valuable but when was the last time he drove a key run to win a meaningful game for the Cardinals? If Jones wasn't ahead of Pujols in HR and RBI, I don't have nearly as good of an argument. I think Pujols does get penalized some by playing on a team with a better lineup and a better pitching staff. Head-to-head...Pujols is probably the better player than Jones because of his bat. It's just in the context of needing to be valuable, the Braves need Jones right now more the Cardinals need Pujols. If Pujols sat out the rest of the games this year, the Cardinals still win the division going away. Pujols can be credited for the Cardinals great first half to give them the big lead but this team can coast it's way into the postseason while the Braves still can lose the division. If Vladimir Guerrero won the MVP last year because he carried the Angels by producing in September...than why can't Jones be valuable in the same way?

Bizzarofelice · Post by **Bizzarofelice** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 10:37 pm

Shoalzie wrote: He's valuable but when was the last time he drove a key run to win a meaningful game for the Cardinals?

Yeah. Pujols can't compete with those solo shots Jones hits.

If Jones wasn't ahead of Pujols in HR and RBI, I don't have nearly as good of an argument.

You still need to scrape and come up with some interesting stats.

I think Pujols does get penalized some by playing on a team with a better lineup

Recheck your facts on that one.

rozy · Post by **rozy** » Wed Sep 14, 2005 2:16 am

Shoalzie wrote:He's valuable but when was the last time he drove a key run to win a meaningful game for the Cardinals?

He doesn't have to. MVP Eckstein handles those duties.

As to Jones, he is doing now what he has been expected to do for the majority of a decade. It's about time. Is it right to penalize him THIS year for VASTLY underachieving in the past? Hell fucking yeah. Especially when it is Pujols he is matched up against in this currently* flawed** discussion.

*Eckstein
**MVP

Bizzarofelice · Post by **Bizzarofelice** » Wed Sep 14, 2005 1:53 pm

Jones should be the MVP cause he hit the most home runs

Love,
Gorman Thomas
Rob Deer

Mrs Paul v 0.0 · Post by **Mrs Paul v 0.0** » Wed Sep 14, 2005 2:19 pm

.179 + 25 + 64 + last place = .280 + 50 + 140 + first place

Cuddles,
Bace

Cueball · Post by **Cueball** » Wed Sep 14, 2005 2:49 pm

Pujols is MVP. It's the same argument as last year when he had Triple Crown type numbers and Barroid got the nod. Pujols is the best player in the NL, this is his year.