First bump in the road for Weis

Killian · Post by **Killian** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 3:45 pm

In about 20 minutes, ND is going to hold a presser stating that Assistant Head Coach/QB Coach David Cutcliffe is going to retire. Having Cutcliffe on the staff was great for two reasons. First, he is an excellent recruiter and tutor of QB's. The Manning's credit him with their development and he made NFL QB's out of Heath Schuler and Tee Martin. It would have been nice to see him tutor Quinn. Second, he was a successful head coach in arguably the best confrence in the country. This would have smoothed the transition between Weis's move from the NFL to college and the time restirctions placed on this job.

The replacement will be Peter Vaas, former ND QB/RB coach and most recently HC in NFL Europe. Given the circumstances, a pretty good hire. But losing Cutcliffe sucks.

indyfrisco · Post by **indyfrisco** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 3:48 pm

Any rumblings as to why? Or is it just age and family reasons?

Killian · Post by **Killian** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 3:52 pm

He had triple bypass sugery earlier in the year and has been recovering since. During spring practice, he was at home resting and Weis asked the NCAA to let player personel director Ron Powlus take over as QB coach for the spring practices.

So it is a health related reason, but most thought he would be back in time for the season.

indyfrisco · Post by **indyfrisco** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 4:27 pm

Powlus?

Haven't heard that name in a long time. How's the "next Montana" thing coming along for him?

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 5:51 pm

Powlus was overrated by Beano in a momentary reference, which was blown out of proportion for a decade and more...yet...

Is there anything pithy that leads you to believe that Powlus isn't QB coach material?

Killian · Post by **Killian** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 5:58 pm

Believe the Heupel wrote:Jesus H. Christ, you're going to let RON POWLUS tutor your QBs?

Isn't that kind of like having Michael Jackson teach a class in child care?

The guy holds just about every major QB record at ND. Holtz and Beno did Powlus no favors. The scary thing is that the defense from the '93 team led by Bryant Young, Jeff Burris and a few other NFL'ers said that Powlus was night and day after his injury his freshman year. Those guys said that he was incredibly good before having his clavical snapped in practice. After that, happy feet. Two other injurys and no WR didn't help.

I think if Powlus wanted to be a coach he would be excellent. He learned football from some great minds and would be learning from Weis as he went along. But Powlus will be director of Player Development (save the jokes) and Peter Vaas will be the QB coach.

Cicero · Post by **Cicero** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 6:02 pm

I would like to see Ron do well. He had a lot of tools but got hurt early and began his career at the beginning of Notre Dame's decline in talent.

Laxplayer · Post by **Laxplayer** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 6:21 pm

What does being a successful QB(athlete) have to do with being a successful coach?

TheChief · Post by **TheChief** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 6:25 pm

Being around successful coaches or being a great athlete gives no indication of what type of coach anyone will be.

Ask the Bowden family.

buckeye_in_sc · Post by **buckeye_in_sc** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 6:47 pm

weis, ND, and Powlus blow monkey cock and florida rules...

sin,

Trix

seriously Cutcliffe would have been awesome...when you consider what he did with Eli Manning and Ole Miss and his history at Tenn wow...

huge loss for the Irish but I am sure Weis will survive it...

i wish Quinn would have wound up at tOSU...

Cicero · Post by **Cicero** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 6:59 pm

Brady Quinn will win the next 2 Heismans.

indyfrisco · Post by **indyfrisco** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 7:12 pm

Beano Cook wrote:Brady Quinn will win the next 2 Heismans.

Nolesy · Post by **Nolesy** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 7:39 pm

Being a rabid fan and a good poster have nothing to do with each other.

sincerely, t-REXand Jon=bitch=parrot

Buried_Nick · Post by **Buried_Nick** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 9:53 pm

Looks like Master General Kinobi will have to just settle for a W over the Spartans, rather than the ass raping claimed previous, huh?

http://www.mlive.com/newsflash/sports/i ... ist=sports

Buried_Nick · Post by **Buried_Nick** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 9:58 pm

'Nother question. Who was Vaas so proud of coaching while at ND his first stint? Powlus?!

Mr T · Post by **Mr T** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 11:43 pm

buckeye_in_sc wrote:weis, ND, and Powlus blow monkey cock and florida rules...

sin,

Trix

Ole Trix is in b_i_s's head.

Terry in Crapchester · Thu Jun 02, 2005 1:28 am

Killian wrote:The guy holds just about every major QB record at ND. Holtz and Beno did Powlus no favors.

Spot on. I'm still trying to wrap my mind around why Holtz recruited Powlus, then tried to fit him into his option offense. The first time I saw Powlus trying in vain to turn the corner on the option, I knew Holtz' days at ND were numbered.

When Powlus left after the '97 season, and Jarious Jackson was the best of the remaining lot at QB, you saw how much Powlus meant to ND.

Killian · Post by **Killian** » Thu Jun 02, 2005 1:21 pm

MSUFAN wrote:'Nother question. Who was Vaas so proud of coaching while at ND his first stint? Powlus?!

While acting as the RB coach: Ricky Watters, Jerome Bettis, Tony Brooks and Reggie Brooks

While acting as the QB coach: Rick Mirer

So you have a first round running back, a first round quarterback, two second round running backs and a fourth round running back. Pretty solid. Good call Babs. You again added to your streak of umpteen posts in this forum and haven't added a single thing. You're closing in on Ripken. The funny thing is you look at Powlus and laugh, but he's still better than anything MSU has ever produced at QB.

Terry, I agree with you about Powlus. Holtz having him running the option was like Willingham forcing Holiday into a west coast offense. The difference was that Holtz let Powlus use his strong suit. Holtz admitted he screwed up running that offense. He tried to get some WR to help Ron and had Moss decided not to get involved in a racialy motivated fight, people might think different of Mr. Powlus.

Had Holtz stayed, Powlus would have left after the '96 season, been a 3rd or 4th round draft pick and Holtz would have had his QB in '97, '98 and '99. And he would have made a serious run at the NC in '98.

TheJON · Post by **TheJON** » Thu Jun 02, 2005 7:17 pm

Rick Mirer may have been drafted in the first round, but he was not a first round QB.

And it's good to see Powlus got himself a coaching gig. I always felt bad for him. Not his fault he was given expectations he was not physically able to live up to. I don't know how many times I've heard jokes about him. Never once did I hear him make excuses for him not playing well. I'm just suprised he came back to ND to coach. You'd think he'd want to go elsewhere.

Killian · Post by **Killian** » Thu Jun 02, 2005 7:27 pm

TheJON wrote:Rick Mirer may have been drafted in the first round, but he was not a first round QB.

Right. Because scouts miss on prospects by almost 30 spots near the top of the draft. And I'm sure he wasn't good enough to win rookie of the year honors and set records for attempts, completions and yards as a rookie. Mirer was a good QB with a fragile phsyce that was ruined by Dennis Erickson.

At the time, Mirer was very much a first round QB. Hindsight is 20-20 JON.

Laxplayer · Post by **Laxplayer** » Thu Jun 02, 2005 7:52 pm

Jon...if you want to call Mirer a bust then how should we classify Chuck Long?

Killian · Post by **Killian** » Thu Jun 02, 2005 7:57 pm

Believe the Heupel wrote:I always wondered what would have happened if the Chickens had drafted Bledsoe and the Patriots had drafted Mirer. The Chickens would have been a perfect situation for Bledsoe-he grew up in Puyallup, which is basically a suburb of Seattle. STILL surprised he didn't sign with Seattle as a FA a couple of years ago.

And for the record, I may be a victim of media hype about Powlus. He's one of those guys that everyone drags out when discussing busts. Hell, I should know as well as anyone that people hyped as busts were sometimes actually damn good players.

I remember the debate at the time. Both were considered almost equals and the thinking was that the Patriots would take Mirer because of the Irish Catholic fan base in Boston and the Seahawks would get Bledsoe which would be perfect because he was from the area. Who knows what would have happened.

Yeah, I think most are. Everyone considers him a bust because he didn't win one, let alone two Heisman's. No pressure there. :roll: Too bad for him that he is now the punchline of jokes and thought about as one of the all time busts, yet players like Dan Kendra are never brought up.

TheJON · Post by **TheJON** » Thu Jun 02, 2005 8:42 pm

Laxplayer,

I would classify Chuck Long as a bust. Anything else???

TheJON · Post by **TheJON** » Thu Jun 02, 2005 8:46 pm

I can't imagine why Boz's body fell apart!

Laxplayer · Post by **Laxplayer** » Thu Jun 02, 2005 8:54 pm

No JON that's all. Just wanted to make the point that you rip on Mirer but Iowa isn't immune to having their share of busts. How many QB's from Iowa have ever done anything?

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Thu Jun 02, 2005 9:08 pm

JON,

maybe Boz didn't spend enough time in The Neighborhood?

Terry in Crapchester · Fri Jun 03, 2005 2:29 pm

Killian wrote:The funny thing is you look at Powlus and laugh, but he's still better than anything MSU has ever produced at QB.

What's really funny about that is that Michigan State has had plenty of talent at WR over the years, just nobody to get them the ball: Mark Ingram, Brock Middlebrook, Plaxico Burress, Gari Scott, Charlie Rogers, etc.

Terry, I agree with you about Powlus. Holtz having him running the option was like Willingham forcing Holiday into a west coast offense.

I know this might be anathema, coming from an ND fan, but I actually see a difference between the two not in Holtz' favor. The difference I'm referring to is that while both Holtz and Willingham were wedded to a certain pet offense and not willing to bend to accommodate the talents of their QB, Willingham inherited Holliday. By contrast, Holtz went out of his way to recruit Powlus to ND, despite the fact that he knew or should have known Powlus couldn't run the option effectively, and that he was unwilling to change his offense.

had Moss decided not to get involved in a racialy motivated fight, people might think different of Mr. Powlus.

I don't consider ND's receiving corps to blame for public perception of Powlus. After all, just as Powlus owns much of ND's passing records, Derrick Mayes owns much of ND's receiving records. But you're right in that Moss would have brought in an entirely different element.

The reason Powlus is considered a "bust" goes back to what you said earlier about Beano and Holtz doing him no favors. Beano hyped him to a level that was impossible to match by performance, before he had ever played a single college game. And Holtz asked him to do things which, to put it mildly, he was incapable of doing.

Had Holtz stayed, Powlus would have left after the '96 season, been a 3rd or 4th round draft pick and Holtz would have had his QB in '97, '98 and '99. And he would have made a serious run at the NC in '98.

Agreed on Powlus. And I take it you're referring to Jackson as Holtz' QB for '97 and beyond?

Actually, Jackson was pretty much the prototypical QB for Holtz' offense. I was never a huge fan of his, but with the right coaching, he could have been a Tony Rice type, but with a better arm.

ND might have made a run at the NC in '98 had Holtz stayed. As it is, we got so close to the BCS (although not the NC) that year it could make you cry. Recall that we lost to 'SC 10-0 in the season finale with Jackson injured. The offense couldn't do anything but three and out under Battle all game -- in fact, I don't think ND so much as even attempted a field goal in that game. But the way the defense played, with Jackson healthy we would've had a shot to win that game.

Again, this might be anathema coming from a ND fan, but to me Holtz stuck with the option offense too long, and by doing so at a time when other teams were going to more of a pro-style attack, he hurt ND's program. Having said that, if Holtz did leave a mess behind, Davie and Willingham had a combined total of eight years to clean it up, and both failed miserably in that regard.

Davie had no idea what he wanted to do with the offense. Willingham at least knew what he wanted to do with the offense, and it might have worked too, but for the fact that he had a seriously overmatched coaching staff and that he was too slow to recognize that what constitutes a "successful" season at Stanford does not necessarily constitute the same at ND.

OTOH, I honestly don't think that ND football is in quite the dire straits that many fans make it out to be. When you think about it, we were only a couple of breaks away from BCS bids in '98 and '02 -- a healthy Jackson in the 'SC game in '98, and 1-2 big plays in the Fredo game in '02 -- and perhaps we're in the BCS in both years. Three BCS bowls in the last seven years would put us in pretty rarefied company. And that would have come in the tenure of two head coaches who are both considered failures. That gives me a positive outlook about Weis, in that we're not nearly as far away from where we need to be as many assume. Then again, it's sometimes more difficult to make a good program great than it is to make a bad program good.

buckeye_in_sc · Post by **buckeye_in_sc** » Fri Jun 03, 2005 2:31 pm

Everyone from Iowa is a bona fide stud...

Sin,

The Jon

yeah chuck long was incredible...as was Matt harlieb???

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Fri Jun 03, 2005 3:12 pm

By contrast, Holtz went out of his way to recruit Powlus to ND, despite the fact that he knew or should have known Powlus couldn't run the option effectively, and that he was unwilling to change his offense.

Paterno has done the same thing with several promising kids. Call it the Deity complex...both coaches became used to "having all of the answers"...but that can't work all of the time.

Killian · Post by **Killian** » Fri Jun 03, 2005 5:05 pm

I agree on most points Terry, but one thing about Willingham is that he did have a choice at QB between Holiday, LoVecchio and Jared Clark. Willingham made it know that Holiday was his QB. So if you have to pick one of the three and pick the runner, let him run.

Holtz did go out of his way to recruit Powlus, but Powlus was very similar to Mirer coming out of HS. Powlus ran the ball effectively at Berwick and even ran some option. I think Holtz believed he could be a better throwing version of Mirer. After the first two injuries, Powlus was gun shy and had added some weight. He was done running the option at that point.

That USC game in '98 was horrid. We couldn't do anything on offense. The closest we came to scoring was when Battle fumbled inside the 10 after his knee was down. But yes, my point was that Holtz would have had Jackson for 3 years running his offense and '98 was a Sr laden team on oline, dline and at the skill positions. ND, under Holtz, would have been to the BCS title game in '98.

peter dragon · Post by **peter dragon** » Sun Jun 05, 2005 12:11 pm

God and G0D bless you joe.

and the rest for this fine example of College Football. I love this place and thank god every time I read threads like this, that I stumbled into the fray so long ago. quality over quantiy is always the way to go. is it time for football yet?

lets have a group hug...

this place is :bode:

TheJON · Post by **TheJON** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 6:07 pm

You're fucking stupid, buckeye in sc. I said Chuck Long was a bust. He's an even shittier coach. When the fuck did I say he was great? Never heard of Matt Hartlieb. Heard of Chuck and Jim Hartlieb. They weren't quite as good as NFL Hall of Famers Bobby Hoying, Craig Krenzel, and Joe Germaine.

Killian · Post by **Killian** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 6:20 pm

TheJON wrote:You're fucking stupid, buckeye in sc. I said Chuck Long was a bust. He's an even shittier coach. When the fuck did I say he was great? Never heard of Matt Hartlieb. Heard of Chuck and Jim Hartlieb. They weren't quite as good as NFL Hall of Famers Bobby Hoying, Craig Krenzel, and Joe Germaine.

Someone's cranky after their long nap.

buckeye_in_sc · Post by **buckeye_in_sc** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 7:49 pm

killian either that or the milk wasn't quite warm enough...

actually THE BITCH...i was responding to your incessant criticism of ND QB's that were busts and you make it out like Iowa has never had busts...

say what you want about Germaine, Hoying, and Krenzel, but each of them beat Michigan, won a bowl game (Germaine having won a Rose and Sugar and finished #2 in the country) and of course Krenzel led OSU to a National Title and another Fiesta bowl win...

what did Long and Hartlieb do? I also seem to remember both Hoying and Krenzel starting and winning games in the NFL...no one said anything about Hall of Famers...neither of these 3 were considered top flight QB's coming out of high school but each of them played and or are playing in the NFL and will make slightly more money than you managing that DQ in the middle of butfuck Iowa...

carry on idiot...perhaps we should have a CFB deathmatch between Babs, Trix, and Jon...how about we all win if they all go away?

TheJON · Post by **TheJON** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 9:20 pm

bla bla bla.....What were you saying?

Looks like Buckeye is the one that's cranky today and not me. Let me guess....the special ed kids beat you up at recess again today?

the_ouskull · Post by **the_ouskull** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 10:17 pm

Well yeah... uh.

(cricket)

Sin,
Jon

Nolesy · Post by **Nolesy** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 11:16 pm

carry on idiot...perhaps we should have a CFB deathmatch between Babs, Trix, and Jon...how about we all win if they all go away?[/quote]

I don't support that idea at all. My dog died last year and I don't want to have to go out and get another one to kick when I can go online and kick Jon=bitch=parrot.

buckeye_in_sc · Post by **buckeye_in_sc** » Thu Jun 09, 2005 12:22 am

BTH Wrote in response to the idiot...

TheJON wrote:
I said Chuck Long was a bust. He's an even shittier coach.

Considering that you've said in the past that it was the system and not Jason White that was any good, how do you back up your statement that Chuck Long is a shitty coach? In three years as an OC, he's won two conference championships, coached in two BCS title games, won a Rose Bowl, and coached a guy YOU think wasn't very good to a Heisman trophy as well as producing two different 1800 yard rushers

Hey DQ boy...KYOA much?

let the record reflect BTH jon=DQ boy...

why don't you venture over to the spin zone I am sure the hardliners there would rather beat your pussy ass up than go at each other for a day...

Laxplayer · Post by **Laxplayer** » Thu Jun 09, 2005 2:08 am

Hey JON, can I get a medium oreo blizzard?

Danimal · Post by **Danimal** » Sat Jun 11, 2005 11:51 pm

the_ouskull wrote:Well yeah... uh.

(cricket)

Sin,
Jon

RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACK the Skull