T1B

In the thread on the nominees, I gave my opinion on criteria (and since I don't own the HoF, nor have a vote, my opinion is worth abouts as much as it usually is) -- popularity, longevity, and influence.

If I had a vote... actually, it would be 5 votes, since induction is limited to 5 a year... that would be a "no" on J Geils (sup UCant). While they had longevity, the small handful of hits in a few year span doesn't cut it. And what did they innovate, or do to separate themselves from any other 70's party band?

Nothing.

If you're looking to be outraged -- Kraftwerk got JOBBED. While I'm not a fan of electronica, they pretty much invented it over 45 years ago, and it's largely unchanged from what they brought to the world. And they're still freaking together. Sure, they lack many big hits on American charts, they're generally huge around the globe to this day.


https://www.theguardian.com/music/2013/ ... -band-tate

Again, I'm not a big fan, which I think lends even more validity to my opinion. The scope of their influence clowns any band that's been nominated in recent year, and they were about the easiest no-brainer I could think of... but the voters, naturally, fucked it up.

And Joan Baez had a huge run of popularity that lasted... what, 4-5 years? I must admit that Journey was hugely influential -- they provided the blueprint to once-good bands to sell out and play to the 12 year old girls market (sup Foreigner, Hall & Oates, et al).


Tupac? As discussed before, the rap genie is out of the bottle (maybe they get 40 acres and a mule when inducted), so... whatever. He was influential (and RJack set me straight, although I still believe NWA runs circles around him when it comes to influence), but "longevity" was an issue for him. And I suppose if they judged on character, the HoF would be a very small building.

Dinsdale wrote:"no" on J Geils (sup UCant). While they had longevity, the small handful of hits in a few year span doesn't cut it. And what did they innovate, or do to separate themselves from any other 70's party band?

The first three reasons given here are strong arguments for their induction, especially the one regarding their live performances. There have been VERY few live acts that could match the energy, skill, and just balls-out rockin' good time of a J. Geils Band concert, and as mentioned, it comes through on their live albums. Their original compositions were great, but their covers were often even better, as evidenced by The Contours' First I Look at the Purse (co-written by Smokey Robinson), The Valentinos' Lookin' for a Love, The Showstoppers' Ain't Nothin' But a Houseparty, John Lee Hooker's Serves You Right to Suffer, and a shload of others. Their ability to meld blues with rock was done better by them than by any other American band except maybe The Allman Brothers. And perhaps the two biggest reasons why they should be in are:

1. Peter Wolf (a Jew) was married to Faye Dunaway (a Catholic) during her hittable prime.
2. Any band with a member named Magic Dick deserves honorable mention for that alone, but the fact that he wails on the harp the way he does seals the deal.

If you wanna use lack of hits as an argument for keeping them out of the Hall, Zeppelin had only one song reach the Top 10 of the Billboard U.S. Hot 100 (Whole Lotta Love reached #4), and The Who only had one (I Can See for Miles reached #9). Not saying that the JGB is necessarily in the same league as those two bands, but there are plenty of bands who also aren't in that league, and are much shittier than the JGB ('sup, Journey), who are in.

The J. Geils Band should be in the Hall.

I 3nd what 88 and Smackie said.

The J. Geils Band Live 2014 - The Fillmore Detroit - Whammer Jammer / House Party - 11/14/2014

Just noticed that their drummer even holds his sticks correctly. That is getting to be quite rare these days and it is a sign that he had formal training as a kid by some old jazz drummer. And that typically is a good thing.

Put me down in the hell yeah category. This is nearly as much a travesty as Rush's being passed over year after year was. I mean the sign outside does say "Rock and Roll" don't it? And there is no better example of what a kick ass Rock and Roll band is than JGB.

You know what else is a travesty? I have lived the majority of my life in New England and i haven't seen them yet. I think I will put it on my New Years resolution list.

Papa Willie wrote:Okay - "Rap" is NOT fucking rocking roll.

Y'all be honest - how many rock and roll bands do you think would be inducted into a "Rap Hall of Fame"?

I'm very happy to see Yes make it in, though the R&RHOF is still a shitass, faggot popularity vote.

Agreed

smackaholic wrote:Just noticed that their drummer even holds his sticks correctly. That is getting to be quite rare these days and it is a sign that he had formal training as a kid by some old jazz drummer.

An old jazz drummer?

WTF are you babbling about?

Do you mean he might have learned to play in a marching band or fife and drum corps, or someone with a strong background in those?

The Traditional Grip exists because of marching. In the Old Days, drums were carried with a single strap. It was offset slightly to the left, and bounced off the left thigh. Holding the left stick open-handed maintained the angle to keep it even with the drumhead. As a general rule, most drummers consider Traditional Grip to be disadvantageous for playing a drumset, and even the most diehard Traditionals will abanon it wen it comes time to play a timpani, or other such floor-standing instruments.

Smackie Chan wrote:
If you wanna use lack of hits as an argument for keeping them out of the Hall, Zeppelin had only one song reach the Top 10 of the Billboard U.S. Hot 100 (Whole Lotta Love reached #4), and The Who only had one (I Can See for Miles reached #9). Not saying that the JGB is necessarily in the same league as those two bands, but there are plenty of bands who also aren't in that league, and are much shittier than the JGB ('sup, Journey), who are in.

As an aside, I saw a dealio recently -- you know how many #1 hits Bruce Springsteen had?

The answer is 1... sort of. His single brush with the #1 spot was with Manfred Mann singing his song.

So, it appears we all have our own opinions, and they all counted about equally. But we all seem to agree -- rappers don't belong in the R'n'R HoF.

Kraftwerk got mega-screwed.

Papa Willie wrote:Y'all be honest - how many rock and roll bands do you think would be inducted into a "Rap Hall of Fame"?

Led Zeppelin, James Brown, Black Sabbath

Just to name a few. Look who they sampled.

BSmack wrote:Look who they sampled.

And possibly the most sampled band of all time... Kraftwerk.

Dinsdale wrote:

smackaholic wrote:Just noticed that their drummer even holds his sticks correctly. That is getting to be quite rare these days and it is a sign that he had formal training as a kid by some old jazz drummer.

An old jazz drummer?

WTF are you babbling about?

Do you mean he might have learned to play in a marching band or fife and drum corps, or someone with a strong background in those?

The Traditional Grip exists because of marching. In the Old Days, drums were carried with a single strap. It was offset slightly to the left, and bounced off the left thigh. Holding the left stick open-handed maintained the angle to keep it even with the drumhead. As a general rule, most drummers consider Traditional Grip to be disadvantageous for playing a drumset, and even the most diehard Traditionals will abanon it wen it comes time to play a timpani, or other such floor-standing instruments.

I understand the origins of traditional grip. You more or less have to use it to play a field drum. And while his reason for using it could be what you mentioned or that he learned from a traditional jazz drummer. My point is that back in the day, Jazz drummers pretty much without exception, played using the traditional grip, but that it is getting to be a bit of a lost art form. As for what is "better", to each his own. But try telling Joe Morello or Buddy Rich that they were disadvantaged. There is not a matched grip drummer out there that could hang with Buddy. Matched playing has a single advantage. You can hit harder. I have seen Buddy go to it on occasion. I believe he did during his epcot drum battle with Animal on the muppet show when he decided to "out animal" animal. Timpani is played matched, probably because it is a stronger grip and a timpani mallet is heavier than a stick.

So, you're citing Buddy Rich in defense of traditional grip on a drumset?

Do you think that was due to grip, or possibly talent level?

Jimi Hendrix played an upside-down guitar... must be a better way to play, eh?

David Gilmour fingered chords differently... he's pretty good.

Tony Iommi had rubber fingers... do you suggest young guitarists go in for amputations?

No dins, yer cracked and sputtering as usual. Hendrix was a lefty, not an "upside down" player like Albert King...Gilmour played the slowest and simplest chords ever...as for the trap set snare stick clasp, start your comparison between Charlie Watts and Lars Ulrich....

Perhaps J. Geils should be held out..if only in a pathetic gesture to suggest that the Hall understands the difference between actual rock innovation and some some fake Boston Jew blues imposter...but, like Barry Bonds, the Rocket, and McGuire, hope springs eternal...

Dinsdale wrote:So, you're citing Buddy Rich in defense of traditional grip on a drumset?

Do you think that was due to grip, or possibly talent level?

Jimi Hendrix played an upside-down guitar... must be a better way to play, eh?

David Gilmour fingered chords differently... he's pretty good.

Tony Iommi had rubber fingers... do you suggest young guitarists go in for amputations?

You have implied that there is an advantage to a matched grip. My point, and I cite Rich as a prime example, that this is not necessarily so. I think you will find that the preponderance of matched grip players is due to the fact that without formal training, it is the natural way for one to hold sticks. I played as a kid. My first instructor was some one dude that insisted I hold the sticks "correctly". I could play that way, but was more comfortable with matched grip. My next instructor was a younger guy that played matched and suggested I hold the fukking things the way I was comfortable. And that was matched. But I didn't keep it up past my first year in high school. I have fukked around a bit now and then since. I bought cockblock a kit when he was about 10, but, I played the damn thing way more than he did which still wasn't much, so we sold it.

I am not saying that traditional players are inherently better than matched. There are plenty examples of amazing drummers in both styles. My point was simply that a traditional grip is a sign of formal training. I will say that when you see a traditional grip player in a band, odds are pretty good that he is good. When you see a matched grip player in your basic garage band, it is simply an indication that he can't read music! You'll need to wait till he starts playing to figure out whether he is good or not.

Getting back to which grip provides an advantage, I did see a youtube video of Rich discussing it and he claimed that while matched works when it is hammertime, you can simply get around the kit better using traditional. I'll see if I can find it.

Here it is.....



He really doesn't give a very good explanation of why traditional is better, but when you watch him do his thing, it's sort of hard to argue with him. Love the way he has 1 misshit on a cymbal and stops and yells "shit". Buddy was a worldclass asshole, but damn, what chops.

BTW, he is not my favorite drummer. Give me Joe Morello or Papa Jo Jones anyday.

smackaholic wrote:Buddy was a worldclass asshole, but damn, what chops.

Wish I could be there as you read #14 & 15 on this list to watch your head explode.

Charlie ward and dingo ahead of rich? I like both of these guys and they certainly belong on the list as the drummers of 2 hugely influential bands, but sorry, actual chops have to play into the equation and rich could play anything they could in a. Coma with one hand. And Joe morello doesn't crack the top 30? Steve Gadd a dozen slots behind Ringo? You have fukking got to be kidding me.

jgb definitely deserves to get in.....not much in the way of radio hits but their live shows were the stuff of legend....I saw them a couple of times and they were one of the better live bands I've seen.....

Dinsdale wrote:
Kraftwerk got mega-screwed.

No doubt.....fun fun fun on the autobahn....

Kraftwerk will get in. But they will be made to wait behind some lesser talents.

smackaholic wrote:Charlie ward and dingo ahead of rich? I like both of these guys and they certainly belong on the list as the drummers of 2 hugely influential bands, but sorry, actual chops have to play into the equation and rich could play anything they could in a. Coma with one hand. And Joe morello doesn't crack the top 30? Steve Gadd a dozen slots behind Ringo? You have fukking got to be kidding me.

I was arguing with some people on Facebook about the RS list. I didn't see Joe Morello on the list. It's a joke of a list written by rock media types who just wish they had that level of talent.

BSmack wrote:

smackaholic wrote:Charlie ward and dingo ahead of rich? I like both of these guys and they certainly belong on the list as the drummers of 2 hugely influential bands, but sorry, actual chops have to play into the equation and rich could play anything they could in a. Coma with one hand. And Joe morello doesn't crack the top 30? Steve Gadd a dozen slots behind Ringo? You have fukking got to be kidding me.

I was arguing with some people on Facebook about the RS list. I didn't see Joe Morello on the list. It's a joke of a list written by rock media types who just wish they had that level of talent.

I suspect you could dig Joe up, cut his left hand off and place it on a drum kit and it would outplay Ringo and Charlie combined.

Bonham isn't Top 5. Sorry, I appreciate his skill and all, but let's collect our exuberance for a moment...

It's all subjective rubbish, anyway, once you get into the top 20 or so. Bonham, IMO, is the ultimate blues-based rock drummer. No one has a better feel for this type of playing. And, he showed that he could take on new styles and pwn them later in his career. He is the only one I can think of who can get as deep in a groove as Steve Gadd.

The guy that I feel is rated too high here is Peart. I am a YYYYYUGE Rush and Peart fan, but, as "drummer" pointed out once here, or one of the earlier boards, Neil swings like a rusty gate. WTF ever happened to drummer, BTW? i had never really thought much about the concept of "swing" when rating drummers, but I do now. and thanks to drummer, every time I hear Neil play now, I am reminded of his inability to swing. I read an article about it and he realizes it and has apparently worked with Jazz drum teachers to find his groove. Still love his playing, but this keeps him out of the elite ranks. Duke Ellington wasn't kidding when he said, it don't mean a thing if you ain't got that swing.

smackaholic wrote:It's all subjective rubbish, anyway, once you get into the top 20 or so. Bonham, IMO, is the ultimate blues-based rock drummer. No one has a better feel for this type of playing. And, he showed that he could take on new styles and pwn them later in his career. He is the only one I can think of who can get as deep in a groove as Steve Gadd.

The guy that I feel is rated too high here is Peart. I am a YYYYYUGE Rush and Peart fan, but, as "drummer" pointed out once here, or one of the earlier boards, Neil swings like a rusty gate. WTF ever happened to drummer, BTW? i had never really thought much about the concept of "swing" when rating drummers, but I do now.

I got into a similar discussion with Van during chat. He was finally able to persuade me that there was a fundamental flaw Keith Moon's playing compared to John Bonham's. You're right once you realize that it sticks in your craw.

BSmack wrote:

smackaholic wrote:It's all subjective rubbish, anyway, once you get into the top 20 or so. Bonham, IMO, is the ultimate blues-based rock drummer. No one has a better feel for this type of playing. And, he showed that he could take on new styles and pwn them later in his career. He is the only one I can think of who can get as deep in a groove as Steve Gadd.

The guy that I feel is rated too high here is Peart. I am a YYYYYUGE Rush and Peart fan, but, as "drummer" pointed out once here, or one of the earlier boards, Neil swings like a rusty gate. WTF ever happened to drummer, BTW? i had never really thought much about the concept of "swing" when rating drummers, but I do now.

I got into a similar discussion with Van during chat. He was finally able to persuade me that there was a fundamental flaw Keith Moon's playing compared to John Bonham's. You're right once you realize that it sticks in your craw.

It fukking sucks when someone who actually knows what the fukk he is talking about enlightens you about one of your hero's flaws, doesn't it?

So, what was Keith's flaw, besides really, really bad substance abuse issues? I still think he is one of the greats. He jsn't what a great drummer is supposed to be. He's rather unique. But, he could swing and he was the perfect drummer for The Who.

The whole "greatest" drummer thing is pretty subjective, and it doesn't make much sense to compare guys who mainly play (or played) jazz with rock and rollers. Sure some could play both well but there are two fairly distinct sets of skills involved.

That being said, one guy who doesn't get near enough recognition - David Garibaldi.

Papa Willie wrote:MM with Dream Theater (who he turned down):

Impressive skills. God awful music.

Marco is amazing when he's in his element, which is jazz fusion kinda stuff with mind bending syncopation. He does a pretty good job driving a big band, but, he ain't no Buddy Rich.

But then again, who is?

I would like to see him try some DBQ stuff with a quartet. He would have fun with Brubecks whacky time sigs.

smackaholic wrote:
It fukking sucks when someone who actually knows what the fukk he is talking about enlightens you about one of your hero's flaws, doesn't it?

Unfortunately, we'll never know, it's one of those secrets Van took to his grave - before passing it on to Bsmack. With hindsight, Van was a lot like the Rosetta Stone. Shame I didn't pay attention at the time.

Papa Willie wrote:nothing that would peel the shit off a midget's dick after brown-tipping Obama.

Get help.

smackaholic wrote:

BSmack wrote:

smackaholic wrote:It's all subjective rubbish, anyway, once you get into the top 20 or so. Bonham, IMO, is the ultimate blues-based rock drummer. No one has a better feel for this type of playing. And, he showed that he could take on new styles and pwn them later in his career. He is the only one I can think of who can get as deep in a groove as Steve Gadd.

The guy that I feel is rated too high here is Peart. I am a YYYYYUGE Rush and Peart fan, but, as "drummer" pointed out once here, or one of the earlier boards, Neil swings like a rusty gate. WTF ever happened to drummer, BTW? i had never really thought much about the concept of "swing" when rating drummers, but I do now.

I got into a similar discussion with Van during chat. He was finally able to persuade me that there was a fundamental flaw Keith Moon's playing compared to John Bonham's. You're right once you realize that it sticks in your craw.

It fukking sucks when someone who actually knows what the fukk he is talking about enlightens you about one of your hero's flaws, doesn't it?

So, what was Keith's flaw, besides really, really bad substance abuse issues? I still think he is one of the greats. He jsn't what a great drummer is supposed to be. He's rather unique. But, he could swing and he was the perfect drummer for The Who.

Basically that he had almost no swing and was technically very very limited. He could play fast and he could keep time and that's what counts and rock and roll but when it came to finding a groove and sticking to it he was not even in Bonzo's league.

Then again if you ask Ginger Baker he thought they were all shit.

BSmack wrote:........ he was not even in Bonzo's league.

This statement bothers me a bit.

It says that "Bonzo's League" is kind of like AA groove. Bonzo was an absolute swing king. He is Godlike, hell he is almost Gaddlike. He is first ballot GHOF.

As for Keith, I always thought he was a master of time and could groove when he was looking to groove. It was just that his style was utter chaos and groove is about order and repetition.

Where I find Keith brilliant is that although his playing sounded like someone falling down a flight of stairs with a drum kit, it absolutely fit in with what the band was playing. I believe it was SC or one of the other board music smartypants that noted that Keith's playing fit the band perfectly, better than anyone else.

smackaholic wrote:I believe it was SC or one of the other board music smartypants that noted that Keith's playing fit the band perfectly, better than anyone else.

I don't think I can take credit for that, and if I did say it, it's from a completely ignorant point of view since I know absolutely nothing technical about drumming. I just know what I like, and Keith always sounded good to me. The closest my uneducated ear could discern regarding what Keith did for The Who was what Mitch Mitchell did for Hendrix. Both sounded like they weren't just keeping the beat, but were almost playing lead parts in some songs, like Hendrix's Fire and The Who's My Generation and Baba O'Riley. As far as commenting on technical prowess and ability, I'll leave that to those who know what they're talking about.

Smackie Chan wrote: As far as commenting on technical prowess and ability, I'll leave that to those who know what they're talking about.

Which, around here, includes...nobody.

Except Dinsdale, of course.

Smackie Chan wrote: As far as commenting on technical prowess and ability, I'll leave that to those who know what they're talking about.

Nice one, cheers Smackie! I'd love to take over, but having trouble understanding the criticism. I think they're saying Moon couldn't comprehend more than one tempo? Who knows, it's mindless Zep-no-babble.

One of my favorite J. Geils songs

Smackie Chan wrote:

smackaholic wrote:I believe it was SC or one of the other board music smartypants that noted that Keith's playing fit the band perfectly, better than anyone else.

I don't think I can take credit for that, and if I did say it, it's from a completely ignorant point of view since I know absolutely nothing technical about drumming. I just know what I like, and Keith always sounded good to me. The closest my uneducated ear could discern regarding what Keith did for The Who was what Mitch Mitchell did for Hendrix. Both sounded like they weren't just keeping the beat, but were almost playing lead parts in some songs, like Hendrix's Fire and The Who's My Generation and Baba O'Riley. As far as commenting on technical prowess and ability, I'll leave that to those who know what they're talking about.

I seem to recall it was you, but it could have been Van.

Anyhoo, I still believe that while not at the top, skill wise, is right up there with Bonham, Baker and a few others in shaping what would become "rock drummer" dude by the 70s.

As for best, chops wise, Carl Palmer, Bill Bruford and Stewart Copeland are right up there. All three would be at home in a big band.

Dinsdale wrote:that would be a "no" on J Geils (sup UCant).

Rack.

Love J. Geils, the first 3 albums are classics. The RRHoF is a joke. I see bands & people inducted that didn't even play R&R. Marshall Tucker is another I deem worthy in a similar situation.

Papa Willie wrote: That'd be kind of cool. Problem is - almost all the originals are dead now!

Yet they're still out selling some who are already in, those best described as representing the living dead.

Peter Wolf is playing in Hartford in April. Gotta see it.

Has anyone seen him? Will he have any J. Geils members with him? Sure would be nice if he could at least get Magic Dick.

Papa Willie wrote:Problem is - almost all the originals are dead now!

None are dead. On the rare occasions when they still perform, four of the original six are onstage. The only two who aren't are drummer Stephen Jo Bladd and, ironically, J. Geils. Bladd is pretty much retired, and Geils basically doesn't like the other band members and sued them for continuing to use his name for the band. Not sure how that played out.

Saw them a couplethree years ago with those four (Peter Wolf, Seth Justman, Magic Dick, and Danny Klein), and they were phenomenal. Luckily, the band's signature sound doesn't derive from Geils or Bladd. As long as Peter Wolf is singing, Magic Dick is blowin' the harp, and Seth Justman is on keyboards, they sound like the old J. Geils Band.

smackaholic wrote:Peter Wolf is playing in Hartford in April. Gotta see it.

Looks like his setlist contains a few JGB songs, but most of the solo songs I've heard from him are way more pop than blues. His solo material is a far cry from what he did on the early JGB albums, but somewhat similar to Love Stinks & Freeze Frame. Have fun.