So what does the future hold for PSU?

[The Seer]

They keep absorbing blows with the attached stigma, making the Happy Valley days of yore with the warm glow of Joe Pa becoming a distant memory....

The lawsuits come in, causing insurance company heads to contemplate suicide; but still causing a pinch in the cash flow that State heads will suggest come from the athletic dept....

Many top recruits will predictably decide to avoid the controversy and go elsewhere....

The program suffers and does not recapture the pre-scandal success for at least a decade...


-or-


They bring in a young, clean, refreshing face to head the football program, athletes rally round the carnage and sign, people forget, and PSU within 5 years makes yesterday seem like a distant memory.

[SoCalTrjn]

Depends on their coaching staff. Pennsylvania produces a lot of talent, if they can bring a coach in that can build a fence around the state and keep the best players in the state, then pick up a few out of staters here and there, they should be fine. They bring in a weak staff that allows other schools to cherry pick their in state talent and they will just be Pitt in generic uniforms.

If something like this happened in a state like oregon where there is no home grown talent and they must rely on purely out of state recruits, they would be done for decades.

[M2]

The Death Penalty



It doesn't get much worse than this... may Joe Pa and the rest of Penn State rot in hell.


http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=157&f=1395&t=9095337



Penn State is who we thought they were

[R-Jack]

bring in a young, clean, refreshing face

Kinda how this whole thing got started.

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

[Screw_Michigan]

The Death Penalty



It doesn't get much worse than this... may Joe Pa and the rest of Penn State rot in hell.


http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=157&f=1395&t=9095337



Penn State is who we thought they were

It's all UBB code.

[The Seer]

bring in a young, clean, refreshing face

Kinda how this whole thing got started.

The anatomically geographic difference aside, yeah, I guess so.....

[Dinsdale]

If something like this happened in a state like oregon where there is no home grown talent

Not sure where you get this stupid idea. It just doesn't occur to you that like just about every state, it produces talent in approximate proportion to population.

But don't let silly things like common sense get in the way of being a hater.

[Van]

New York being the glaring exception.

[SoCalTrjn]

New York being the glaring exception.

and organ.

Organs baseball teams 8 starting position players were all from California, of their 3 starting weekend pitchers, 2 were from California. Only once every 3 or 4 games did anyone from organ ever start a game for organ.
Now obviously Phil wrote some big checks to Horton to build a winner and Horton told Phil that the only way the program was going to win was to go get talent from California because the state of organ is void of any talent. In fact the urine filled gene pool in organ has produced generations of kids too stupid to be trusted to pump their own gasoline and the state's schools athletic department has realized that the only way they could field competitive teams was to field teams that are made up exclusively of out of state players.

organ has 4 million residents those 4 million residents produced 1 top 100 ranked recruit in the 2013 football class
California has 37 million people those 37 million residents produced 15 top 100 ranked recruits in the 2013 football class

the population difference is just over 9:1 but the talent produced difference is 15:!

Texas has 25 million residents and produced 16 top 100 players, so the population ratio is just over 6:1 but the talent production is 16:1
Florida has 19 million residents and produced 14 top 100 players
Arkansas has 3 million residents and produced 2 top 100 players

In organ high schools they dont even play sports anymore, they just teach the students to scream because that is all they are going to be able to do in college.
organ fans will try to say that its not true, that statistically they produce the same amount of talent per capita as other states but lets look at the Pac 10 conferences recruiting classes the last 4 years. Not using the Pac 12 because it was only a 12 school conference last year

The Pac 10 covered 4 states those 4 states are
California 37 million residents
Washington 7 million residents
Arizona 6 million residents
organ 4 million residents

the last 4 years the Pac 10 schools signed
474 players from California
77 players from Arizona
61 players from Washington
29 players from organ

Now let's take a look at this line about "every state produces talent in approximate proportion to population"
organ produces 7 Pac 10 football players for every 1 million residents in the state
based on organs rate of production
Washington would have only put 49 players in to the Pac 10
Arizona would have only put 42 players in to the Pac 10
California would have only put 259 players in to the Pac 10

Instead
Washington puts 9 players per million residents in to the Pac
California and Arizona both put 13 players per million residents in to the Pac
organ is by far the poorest performing state, almost 2 to 1 when compared to Arizona and California

so it looks like zero fans claim about "every state produces talent in approximate proportion to population" is flat out Bullshit, but I bet that asshole and his cocksucking brethren keep spewing the shit out and claiming that other people are the ones with stupid ideas even when the facts support them.

[Dinsdale]

Organs baseball teams 8 starting position players were all from California, of their 3 starting weekend pitchers, 2 were from California. Only once every 3 or 4 games did anyone from organ ever start a game for organ.
Now obviously Phil wrote some big checks to Horton to build a winner and Horton told Phil that the only way the program was going to win was to go get talent from California because the state of organ is void of any talent.

And here I was thinking OS won 2 straight CWS with 23 of the 25 players on the roster being from Oregon, and 21 of them being from the Willamette Valley.

Wanna back up and take another run at it?

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

Let the legal process play out first. NCAA doesn't need to get involved at this point.

[SoCalTrjn]

Organs baseball teams 8 starting position players were all from California, of their 3 starting weekend pitchers, 2 were from California. Only once every 3 or 4 games did anyone from organ ever start a game for organ.
Now obviously Phil wrote some big checks to Horton to build a winner and Horton told Phil that the only way the program was going to win was to go get talent from California because the state of organ is void of any talent.

And here I was thinking OS won 2 straight CWS with 23 of the 25 players on the roster being from Oregon, and 21 of them being from the Willamette Valley.

Wanna back up and take another run at it?

So now, duck fan is gravy training on organ states success and players the way duck fans gravy train on all of the players they have had to import from other states because the domestic to organ athlete is too lame to field a competitive product?

29 players in 4 years from organ signed with Pac 10 schools, 19 of them with the 2 schools in organ. 7 players a year.
you said that the amount of players produced is directly proportionate to the population when it was shown that organ produces players at a rate at about half of the rate California or Arizona produces players in just football.

[M Club]

so it looks like zero fans claim about "every state produces talent in approximate proportion to population" is flat out Bullshit, but I bet that asshole and his cocksucking brethren keep spewing the shit out and claiming that other people are the ones with stupid ideas even when the facts support them.

lost in this analysis was that only four black people reside in all of oregon.

[Van]

It just doesn't occur to you that like just about every state, it produces talent in approximate proportion to population.

Some states produce more football players than others.

And again, where is New York on that list? California is number one. Texas and Florida are numbers two and three, then there's an enormous drop off to Ohio at number four. Even New Jersey is on the list, yet highly populated New York is nowhere to be found.

Of course M Club's point explains why the southern states are represented disproportionately to their populations, both in producing football players and low academic scores.

[BSmack]

And again, where is New York on that list?

The day you start seeing spring HS football practice in NY is the day you'll start seeing NY in the top 5 recruits list.

[BSmack]

And yes Van, I KNOW that makes your point.

You're welcome.

[Terry in Crapchester]

And again, where is New York on that list?

The day you start seeing spring HS football practice in NY is the day you'll start seeing NY in the top 5 recruits list.

The absence of spring football in NY is a big part of it, although not the only problem. A few others, off the top of my head:

1. Culture surrounding sports: Typically, the best athletes in New York are encouraged to play a sport in every season. The best athletes in many other states are encouraged to concentrate on one sport.

2. Competition from other sports: Various parts of NY are national hotbeds for basketball, hockey and lacrosse.

3. Soccer (?): Somewhat related to #2 above, but soccer in NY is a spring sport at the youth level but a fall sport at the HS level. In high school, kids who grew up playing both sports have to choose.

4. Absence of quality in-state college programs: The most successful college football program in the state, by far, is at a basketball-first private school. Many kids in Texas dream of growing up to play football for Texas. Many kids in Ohio dream of growing up to play football for Ohio State. You don't see that in New York, for obvious reasons. The relatively late develoment of SUNY (not until the 1960's) plays a part here. As a sidenote, I've seen a dramatic expansion of D1A football prospects in this area just in the relatively short time since Buffalo upgraded its program. Based on that evidence, the absence of a quality program at one of New York's state universities is probably astronomical on the quality of high school football in New York.

5. Problems experienced by high schools: In the NYC area, land is at a premium, and many school districts can't afford to own enough land for practice facilities and stadiums. In portions of upstate, enrollment at some schools is too small to support a football program (no 7-, 8- or 9-man football in New York).

6. School year: Starts later in New York (after Labor Day) than in much of the U.S., resulting in shorter high school seasons.

7. Weather: Since we are comparing by population, New York obviously suffers on this front compared to Texas and Florida, two similarly-populated states. If your basis of comparison is Pennsylvania, Ohio or Illinois (also somewhat similarly-populated states), New York isn't hurt quite so badly. Still, it's not unheard of to see winter-like weather in these parts as early as early November or even late October, which is a little earlier than it usually shows up in Pennsylvania, Ohio or Illinois.

[Goober McTuber]

8. New Yorkers and their degenerate spawn are a bunch of pansies, not well-suited for football.

[M Club]

Of course M Club's point explains why the southern states are represented disproportionately to their populations, both in producing football players and low academic scores.

er, aside from playing to the racism endemic in this board, and aside from weather (er, we play hockey in the north, a bit more brutal than pansy, bitch azz football), i'm actually curious about the relationship between dead end ghetto sorts and football skill. ja, hillbillies love to play football, but rural populations mean shit competition. get them in an urban environment where big fish in a small pond is less a single county in georgia and more one square block of gangbanger los angeles and that might explain all the talent coming out of california.

[Van]

And again, where is New York on that list?

The day you start seeing spring HS football practice in NY is the day you'll start seeing NY in the top 5 recruits list.

The absence of spring football in NY is a big part of it, although not the only problem. A few others, off the top of my head:

1. Culture surrounding sports: Typically, the best athletes in New York are encouraged to play a sport in every season. The best athletes in many other states are encouraged to concentrate on one sport.

How can you possibly support such a sweeping generalization? What, kids in other states don't play sports besides football? In California?

2. Competition from other sports: Various parts of NY are national hotbeds for basketball, hockey and lacrosse.

Lacrosse is a nonstarter. Statistically speaking, don't even bother with it. Otherwise, other parts of the country are national hotbeds for baseball, basketball, hockey, tennis, golf, etc. New York is hardly unique in this aspect.

3. Soccer (?): Somewhat related to #2 above, but soccer in NY is a spring sport at the youth level but a fall sport at the HS level. In high school, kids who grew up playing both sports have to choose.

Pretty sure soccer's impact on football isn't nearly as strong in New York as it is in plenty of other warm-weather states, regardless of season.

4. Absence of quality in-state college programs: The most successful college football program in the state, by far, is at a basketball-first private school. Many kids in Texas dream of growing up to play football for Texas. Many kids in Ohio dream of growing up to play football for Ohio State. You don't see that in New York, for obvious reasons. The relatively late develoment of SUNY (not until the 1960's) plays a part here. As a sidenote, I've seen a dramatic expansion of D1A football prospects in this area just in the relatively short time since Buffalo upgraded its program. Based on that evidence, the absence of a quality program at one of New York's state universities is probably astronomical on the quality of high school football in New York.

Chicken or egg conundrum? Maybe if New York produced more football players they'd also produce more and better in-state college programs?

5. Problems experienced by high schools: In the NYC area, land is at a premium, and many school districts can't afford to own enough land for practice facilities and stadiums. In portions of upstate, enrollment at some schools is too small to support a football program (no 7-, 8- or 9-man football in New York).

That same problem holds true in inner-city L.A., which somehow still manages to produce metric fucktons of football talent.

6. School year: Starts later in New York (after Labor Day) than in much of the U.S., resulting in shorter high school seasons.

Nonstarter.

7. Weather: Since we are comparing by population, New York obviously suffers on this front compared to Texas and Florida, two similarly-populated states. If your basis of comparison is Pennsylvania, Ohio or Illinois (also somewhat similarly-populated states), New York isn't hurt quite so badly. Still, it's not unheard of to see winter-like weather in these parts as early as early November or even late October, which is a little earlier than it usually shows up in Pennsylvania, Ohio or Illinois.

Ah, and now we get to the heart of the matter: what Mgo, B Smack and Screwball affectionately refer to as "weather pussies."

[PSUFAN]

The future holds a lot of promise for PSU. Recruiting is going well, and we appear to have hit the jackpot in terms of HC. The Sandusky Affair was/is deplorable, but that is a separate matter from both PSU and PSU football, for the most part.

[PSUFAN]

The Death Penalty



It doesn't get much worse than this... may Joe Pa and the rest of Penn State rot in hell.


http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=157&f=1395&t=9095337



Penn State is who we thought they were

Congrats, ninny...you linked to the PSU homer board, indicating basically nothing.

[Screw_Michigan]

The Sandusky Affair was/is deplorable, but that is a separate matter from both PSU and PSU football, for the most part.

How do you figure?

[PSUFAN]

The horrendous actions of one guy don't wholly (or even at all) define PSU or PSU Football.

You and I are Americans. We are not burdened by the shame and guilt of the My Lai massacre or the Cherokee Trail of Tears or by any number of good or bad things. Those things don't wholly define us and our community, do they?

[Screw_Michigan]

The horrendous actions of one guy don't wholly (or even at all) define PSU or PSU Football.

Pennsylvania State University and its community would be beyond fortunate if this incident was truly confined to Sandusky. Unfortunately we all know it runs beyond Sandusky and up and down the chain of command (including Tom Corbett) that existed for almost decades, DECADES spanning from when Paterno and Sandusky roamed campus. I'm truly sorry for you and your brothers and sisters who were and will be negatively affected and associated with this scandal, but to claim this scandal is isolated to Sandusky's behavior alone is just naive.

[PSUFAN]

I think there are people who have much to ask for, and hopefully that will take place sooner than later. Nonetheless, PSU and PSU Football were never about abuse or condoning abuse for me and and many others, really that's all there is to it. All of us must learn what we can from the situation, resolve to be more vigilant, and to partake in advocacy and services against abuse. For PSU, the future holds moving ahead in active opposition to what Sandusky and his enablers stand for, not curling up into fetal positions and quaking in our placental films.

[Van]

The horrendous actions of one guy don't wholly (or even at all) define PSU or PSU Football.

Pennsylvania State University and its community would be beyond fortunate if this incident was truly confined to Sandusky. Unfortunately we all know it runs beyond Sandusky and up and down the chain of command (including Tom Corbett) that existed for almost decades, DECADES spanning from when Paterno and Sandusky roamed campus. I'm truly sorry for you and your brothers and sisters who were and will be negatively affected and associated with this scandal, but to claim this scandal is isolated to Sandusky's behavior alone is just naive.

+1.

If this whole affair doesn't define 'Lack of Institutional Control,' then I don't know what does. USC was penalized not for any actual wrongdoing, but for not taking sufficient steps to learn what was going on with Bush and his family. In the PSU case, there's no 'should have known.' The very face of the university and the football program admitted to being told what was happening, and he did nothing. His superiors who were likewise told what was happening also did nothing.

There couldn't be a more clear-cut case of knowing and simply sweeping it under the rug, hoping no one would find out. All the while, they allowed it to continue, even through the use of PSU campus facilities.

In no way, shape or form is this a situation where only one man is responsible for what happened. For this nightmare to go on—and to go on for as long as it did—was made possible only by the highest of the higher-ups at PSU turning a blind eye to what they knew was going on.

PSU's LOIC involving the most fixable and egregious offense possible is unmatched in the annals of BTPCF. Even the charges levied against Miami's program pale in comparison. Sure, more players were involved there, but none of it involved a series of coaches and the university's administration willingly turning a blind eye to predatory child abuse on university property.

[PSUFAN]

That's all well and good. Seeing as we're discussing the future of PSU and PSU football, we'll see what bearing your assertions (which I mostly agree with) have on that future.

In the meanwhile, the team, university, and athletic department all have new leadership, and in all three cases I feel we've seen big upgrades. As you might remember, at various times I asserted my wishes that all three be shown the door for a multitude of good reasons even prior to the Sandusky Affair - and certainly nothing changed in that regard afterward.

RIP, Joe - but the Paterno Era is undoubtedly and finally and rightfully at an end, at long last. Should have happened long ago, in my (pre- and post-November 2011) view.

[Van]

Can't argue any of that. Penn St football is undoubtedly on better footing now than it was when Joe Pa was desperately clinging to the reins. Really, excepting some sort of draconian NCAA sanctions which no one believes are forthcoming, there is nowhere for that program to go but up.

[SoCalTrjn]

The day you start seeing spring HS football practice in NY is the day you'll start seeing NY in the top 5 recruits list.

The absence of spring football in NY is a big part of it, although not the only problem. A few others, off the top of my head:

1. Culture surrounding sports: Typically, the best athletes in New York are encouraged to play a sport in every season. The best athletes in many other states are encouraged to concentrate on one sport.

How can you possibly support such a sweeping generalization? What, kids in other states don't play sports besides football? In California?

My sons play baseball and football as well surf nearly every day. All 3 are varsity sports here and my 10th grade son lettered in all 3 this year.

2. Competition from other sports: Various parts of NY are national hotbeds for basketball, hockey and lacrosse.

Lacrosse is a nonstarter. Statistically speaking, don't even bother with it. Otherwise, other parts of the country are national hotbeds for baseball, basketball, hockey, tennis, golf, etc. New York is hardly unique in this aspect.

California produces more MLB players than any other state. USC alone, on top of 12 National Titles (twice as many as any other school) has produced 200 MLB players.
California produces more NBA players than any other state http://bleacherreport.com/articles/6309 ... ca/page/26
California produces more soccer players than any other state http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cu ... y_US_state
California also produces more pro skaters, more pro surfers, more pro MX racers, more pro auto racers...than any other state.

3. Soccer (?): Somewhat related to #2 above, but soccer in NY is a spring sport at the youth level but a fall sport at the HS level. In high school, kids who grew up playing both sports have to choose.

Pretty sure soccer's impact on football isn't nearly as strong in New York as it is in plenty of other warm-weather states, regardless of season.

4. Absence of quality in-state college programs: The most successful college football program in the state, by far, is at a basketball-first private school. Many kids in Texas dream of growing up to play football for Texas. Many kids in Ohio dream of growing up to play football for Ohio State. You don't see that in New York, for obvious reasons. The relatively late develoment of SUNY (not until the 1960's) plays a part here. As a sidenote, I've seen a dramatic expansion of D1A football prospects in this area just in the relatively short time since Buffalo upgraded its program. Based on that evidence, the absence of a quality program at one of New York's state universities is probably astronomical on the quality of high school football in New York.

Chicken or egg conundrum? Maybe if New York produced more football players they'd also produce more and better in-state college programs?

5. Problems experienced by high schools: In the NYC area, land is at a premium, and many school districts can't afford to own enough land for practice facilities and stadiums. In portions of upstate, enrollment at some schools is too small to support a football program (no 7-, 8- or 9-man football in New York).

That same problem holds true in inner-city L.A., which somehow still manages to produce metric fucktons of football talent.

6. School year: Starts later in New York (after Labor Day) than in much of the U.S., resulting in shorter high school seasons.

Nonstarter.

7. Weather: Since we are comparing by population, New York obviously suffers on this front compared to Texas and Florida, two similarly-populated states. If your basis of comparison is Pennsylvania, Ohio or Illinois (also somewhat similarly-populated states), New York isn't hurt quite so badly. Still, it's not unheard of to see winter-like weather in these parts as early as early November or even late October, which is a little earlier than it usually shows up in Pennsylvania, Ohio or Illinois.

Ah, and now we get to the heart of the matter: what Mgo, B Smack and Screwball affectionately refer to as "weather pussies."

[SoCalTrjn]

The horrendous actions of one guy don't wholly (or even at all) define PSU or PSU Football.

Pennsylvania State University and its community would be beyond fortunate if this incident was truly confined to Sandusky. Unfortunately we all know it runs beyond Sandusky and up and down the chain of command (including Tom Corbett) that existed for almost decades, DECADES spanning from when Paterno and Sandusky roamed campus. I'm truly sorry for you and your brothers and sisters who were and will be negatively affected and associated with this scandal, but to claim this scandal is isolated to Sandusky's behavior alone is just naive.

+1.

If this whole affair doesn't define 'Lack of Institutional Control,' then I don't know what does. USC was penalized not for any actual wrongdoing, but for not taking sufficient steps to learn what was going on with Bush and his family. In the PSU case, there's no 'should have known.' The very face of the university and the football program admitted to being told what was happening, and he did nothing. His superiors who were likewise told what was happening also did nothing.

There couldn't be a more clear-cut case of knowing and simply sweeping it under the rug, hoping no one would find out. All the while, they allowed it to continue, even through the use of PSU campus facilities.

In no way, shape or form is this a situation where only one man is responsible for what happened. For this nightmare to go on—and to go on for as long as it did—was made possible only by the highest of the higher-ups at PSU turning a blind eye to what they knew was going on.

PSU's LOIC involving the most fixable and egregious offense possible is unmatched in the annals of BTPCF. Even the charges levied against Miami's program pale in comparison. Sure, more players were involved there, but none of it involved a series of coaches and the university's administration willingly turning a blind eye to predatory child abuse on university property.

Take away 30 scholarships (at 10 a year), give them 4 years of probation and a 2 year bowl ban for every kid Sandusky diddled in the shower.
fair is fair

[M2]

Uhmmm, like I was saying ...

It doesn't get much worse than this... may Joe Pa and the rest of Penn State rot in hell.

http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2012/06/29/s ... -revealed/












Here's a shocker ... Joe Pa was behind the coverup.






Joe Paterno influenced Penn State officials to keep quiet about Jerry Sandusky, emails reveal

The missives seemingly contradict the late Paterno's claim that he alerted higher-ups to a report of Sandusky showering with a boy and had nothing to do with the matter after that.




http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nationa ... -1.1105285






I'm not sure Penn State has a checkbook big enough to cover what this may cost them.

[Terry in Crapchester]

The absence of spring football in NY is a big part of it, although not the only problem. A few others, off the top of my head:

1. Culture surrounding sports: Typically, the best athletes in New York are encouraged to play a sport in every season. The best athletes in many other states are encouraged to concentrate on one sport.

How can you possibly support such a sweeping generalization? What, kids in other states don't play sports besides football? In California?

The number of sports "kids" play is wholly irrelevant to this discussion. Most "kids" won't be playing Division 1 level football, or any other sport for that matter. And that holds true regardless of where you live.

What is relevant is the number of sports that elite athletes play. In New York, they are encouraged to play multiple sports. I could be wrong about this, but I believe that in most other states, elite athletes are encouraged to focus on one sport.

2. Competition from other sports: Various parts of NY are national hotbeds for basketball, hockey and lacrosse.

Lacrosse is a nonstarter. Statistically speaking, don't even bother with it. Otherwise, other parts of the country are national hotbeds for baseball, basketball, hockey, tennis, golf, etc. New York is hardly unique in this aspect.

Lacrosse is a non-starter why? Because you said so?

There are a lot more kids playing Division I lacrosse than you realize. There are only about 60 or so Division I lacrosse programs in the country, but that's about the same number as for hockey. And typically, at the Division I level, lacrosse rosters are much larger than hockey rosters. Using Notre Dame as an example (since I know them best, also ND fields Division I level teams at both sports), ND had 44 players on last year's lacrosse roster, http://www.und.com/sports/m-lacros/mtt/ ... s-mtt.html and 27 players on last year's hockey roster, http://www.und.com/sports/m-hockey/mtt/ ... y-mtt.html. Among mens' sports at ND, only football and track and field had larger rosters, in terms of number of players, than lacrosse. I would venture a guess that the number of kids playing Division I lacrosse is comparable to, if not greater than, the number of kids playing Divsion I golf or tennis -- certainly fewer schools fielding a Division I program, but each school having a much larger roster (again using ND as an example, ND had 12 players on last year's golf roster and 14 tennis players on last year's tennis roster). Not to mention that in a regional sport such as lacrosse, hotbed areas are going to have a much bigger impact on recruiting of the sport, as a whole, than are hotbed areas for national sports such as football and basketball.

3. Soccer (?): Somewhat related to #2 above, but soccer in NY is a spring sport at the youth level but a fall sport at the HS level. In high school, kids who grew up playing both sports have to choose.

Pretty sure soccer's impact on football isn't nearly as strong in New York as it is in plenty of other warm-weather states, regardless of season.

The difference is that in New York, soccer goes from a spring sport, at the youth level, to a fall sport, at the high school level. So it goes from being an indirect competitor of football to a direct competitor of football. You have kids who grew up playing both sports being forced to choose at the high school level. I'm not saying that there aren't any other states that have the same issue, but I would venture that at least potentially, that's a stronger influence than where soccer is a fall sport from the youth level. It's certainly a stronger influence than if soccer is a spring sport at the high school level (don't know if that's the case anywhere, but it's certainly possible).

4. Absence of quality in-state college programs: The most successful college football program in the state, by far, is at a basketball-first private school. Many kids in Texas dream of growing up to play football for Texas. Many kids in Ohio dream of growing up to play football for Ohio State. You don't see that in New York, for obvious reasons. The relatively late develoment of SUNY (not until the 1960's) plays a part here. As a sidenote, I've seen a dramatic expansion of D1A football prospects in this area just in the relatively short time since Buffalo upgraded its program. Based on that evidence, the absence of a quality program at one of New York's state universities is probably astronomical on the quality of high school football in New York.

Chicken or egg conundrum? Maybe if New York produced more football players they'd also produce more and better in-state college programs?

If you had bothered to read my post, you wouldn't have even mentioned this. Let me reiterate.

SUNY, the State University of New York, didn't even exist until the 1960's. Think about that one, let it marinate a little, then get back to me.

Of the current elite college football programs, the only one in even a remotely comparable position, historically speaking, is Florida State. Florida State did exist prior to the 1960's, although it was an all-girls school until 1958 (when I lived in Jacksonville in the late 1980's, the oldtimers who were Gator fans still derogatorily referred to Florida State as "the girls' school.")

New York didn't have a state school competing at the Division 1-A level until 1999, and still doesn't have a state school competing at the BCS level. New York is, far and away, the most heavily populated state about which that claim can be made. Massachusetts is the closest competitor in that regard.

5. Problems experienced by high schools: In the NYC area, land is at a premium, and many school districts can't afford to own enough land for practice facilities and stadiums. In portions of upstate, enrollment at some schools is too small to support a football program (no 7-, 8- or 9-man football in New York).

That same problem holds true in inner-city L.A., which somehow still manages to produce metric fucktons of football talent.

Not that land in LA is exactly cheap, but you're not really comparing the cost of land in inner-city LA to the cost of land in midtown Manhattan, are you?

And I note that you didn't even mention the second point I brought up: no 7-, 8-, or 9-man football in New York. I seem to recall reading that Rashaan Salaam, who played his high school football in California, played in a 9-man league.

6. School year: Starts later in New York (after Labor Day) than in much of the U.S., resulting in shorter high school seasons.

Nonstarter.

7-game regular season in New York. How, exactly, is that a non-starter?

7. Weather: Since we are comparing by population, New York obviously suffers on this front compared to Texas and Florida, two similarly-populated states. If your basis of comparison is Pennsylvania, Ohio or Illinois (also somewhat similarly-populated states), New York isn't hurt quite so badly. Still, it's not unheard of to see winter-like weather in these parts as early as early November or even late October, which is a little earlier than it usually shows up in Pennsylvania, Ohio or Illinois.

Ah, and now we get to the heart of the matter: what Mgo, B Smack and Screwball affectionately refer to as "weather pussies."

Weather pussy smack notwithstanding, are you really gonna argue that weather is not a factor in developing football talent? Longer regular seasons, longer and better conditions for practice, and certainly much better conditions to develop a passing game,

And btw, the first person I recall posting "weather pussies" was PSUFAN, although I suppose it's possible I either missed or forgot about someone else posting it.

[PSUFAN]

Can't argue any of that. Penn St football is undoubtedly on better footing now than it was when Joe Pa was desperately clinging to the reins. Really, excepting some sort of draconian NCAA sanctions which no one believes are forthcoming, there is nowhere for that program to go but up.

I think there is an understandable tendency, given the nature of this horrific affair, to want to "punish" PSU and PSU football. If that were somehow to help the victims or to prevent abuse going forward, I would be totally on board...but the fact is, it misses those marks.

I'm a member of the PSU community. As a member, I myself decide what defines that membership. My definition remains a pursuit of "Success with Honor". I feel that the vast majority of people in the PSU community have a similar definition. That pursuit is defined daily, momentarily. Some of us falter in that pursuit, there's clearly no denying that. When others falter, the ideal and the pursuit of it does not.

It seems abundantly clear that Schultz, Curley, Spanier, and Paterno - and others - did the wrong thing here. Some people are going to hover over that, argue it, persist in defending Paterno and demonizing others in his stead...whatever. I know that the right and correct path here is for the PSU community to strive every day become a paragon in abuse prevention, in support of victims, and in support of services for victims. That path would be a good one for any member of any community, by the way.

PSU football is also defined by that pursuit, and by that positive path. To me it's not of much significance that the most visible proponent of the ideal - Joe Paterno - has been shown to have significant flaws and shortcomings. Those who have worshiped him as a god are slow to this understanding, but understand they must, or their pursuit is that of his cult of personality, not Success with Honor. Paterno was indeed a primarily positive figure in the lives of so many that at this point, you're going to have a cadre of defenders whose efforts seem unseemly or misplaced or imbued with the determination to defend him at all costs. I can tell you that MOST PSU people are just as appalled by these people as you all are. PSU football was greatly defined by Paterno - but it was not ultimately defined by him. That definition is ongoing, and indicative of our efforts now, at every moment.

You punish Sandusky and his enablers, and you learn from what has happened - you do good works. If punishment of the current team helps with that, fine...but I have yet to see the argument that it would. PSU football moves forward away from what it was under Paterno and Sandusky, and towards a new era...one of the best ways I can think of is that the program itself lead the community ahead with a renewed understanding of Success with Honor.

[Van]

The number of sports "kids" play is wholly irrelevant to this discussion. Most "kids" won't be playing Division 1 level football, or any other sport for that matter. And that holds true regardless of where you live.

It also holds true that every single person who plays D1 football is/was a kid.

What is relevant is the number of sports that elite athletes play. In New York, they are encouraged to play multiple sports. I could be wrong about this, but I believe that in most other states, elite athletes are encouraged to focus on one sport.

What on earth are you basing this on? In a warm-weather state like California do you think elite athletes don't play other sports besides football? Have you seen how many of USC's players over the years also ran track, for instance?

John Elway, noted football player, was also known to have played a bit of baseball as well.

Lacrosse is a non-starter why? Because you said so?

Because it's not a choice between being a star football player or playing lacrosse for enough kids that it would amount to a hill of beans. Lacrosse is a sport played at a serious level only in select communities, and no one else cares. Football isn't suffering from lacrosse-drain.

There are a lot more kids playing Division I lacrosse than you realize. There are only about 60 or so Division I lacrosse programs in the country, but that's about the same number as for hockey.

Who gives a fuck? Football isn't suffering from hockey-drain either. Jesus, could your arguments be any more provincial?

And typically, at the Division I level, lacrosse rosters are much larger than hockey rosters. Using Notre Dame as an example (since I know them best, also ND fields Division I level teams at both sports), blah, blah, blah...~snore~

BFD. No one cares about ND's lacrosse team, least of all Brian Kelly. I can assure you that he's not sitting on his fat ass pining away for all those thick-ankled, 175 lb gingers to quit lacrosse and try out for football so that ND could once again become relevant on the gridiron.

"This is Division 1 football! If you can't handle it, go play lacrosse, brother!"

The difference is that in New York, soccer goes from a spring sport, at the youth level, to a fall sport, at the high school level. So it goes from being an indirect competitor of football to a direct competitor of football. You have kids who grew up playing both sports being forced to choose at the high school level. I'm not saying that there aren't any other states that have the same issue, but I would venture that at least potentially, that's a stronger influence than where soccer is a fall sport from the youth level. It's certainly a stronger influence than if soccer is a spring sport at the high school level (don't know if that's the case anywhere, but it's certainly possible).

So NY would've become a football power if only Landon Donovan would have traded in his soccer cleats for football spikes?

Ummmm, Terry? Have you taken a look at the athletes on top college football teams lately? I know you only see one or two of those teams each year, and you certainly aren't seeing one every Saturday on NBC, but those kids who are beating your team and Syracuse to a pulp were really never torn between playing football and lacrosse or soccer.

Your arguments are nonstarters.

New York didn't have a state school competing at the Division 1-A level until 1999, and still doesn't have a state school competing at the BCS level. New York is, far and away, the most heavily populated state about which that claim can be made. Massachusetts is the closest competitor in that regard.

WGARA? Nebraska has managed to become a football power, and they have a population that's about the same as one ghetto in a single NYC borough.

Why not Syracuse? Who said it has to be a state school?

Not that land in LA is exactly cheap, but you're not really comparing the cost of land in inner-city LA to the cost of land in midtown Manhattan, are you?

Again, WGARA? The point is that it's the inner city, same as NYC, and in L.A.'s case you're talking poverty. They don't have killer facilities. Your argument about NYC holds no water, not when L.A. can do it, and even Detroit can do it.

And I note that you didn't even mention the second point I brought up: no 7-, 8-, or 9-man football in New York. I seem to recall reading that Rashaan Salaam, who played his high school football in California, played in a 9-man league.

Who cares? It's another nonstarter. We're talking BTPCF, and you keep bringing crumbs to the table.

7-game regular season in New York. How, exactly, is that a non-starter?

As if Ohio would let such silly impediments become "problems." If places that are colder than NYC can have normal-length football seasons, why can't NY?

Weather pussy smack notwithstanding, are you really gonna argue that weather is not a factor in developing football talent? Longer regular seasons, longer and better conditions for practice, and certainly much better conditions to develop a passing game,

What's your excuse for Michigan, Pennsylvania and Ohio all stomping NY? They all have snow too. Hell, even their pissant neighbor New Jersey tops NY!

And btw, the first person I recall posting "weather pussies" was PSUFAN, although I suppose it's possible I either missed or forgot about someone else posting it.

And Pennsylvania has every disadavantage New York has, and still they produce far more football talent. And no, it's not because New York has instead flooded the world with world-class soccer and lacrosse players.

[Van]

PSUFan, USC was punished like crazy for the actions of one player and a non-affiliated agent looking to poach said player, all of which took place while its current crop of players were still in grade school. Programs get punished for what they did, not merely for the future deterrent factor.

PSU demonstrated an astounding LOIC regarding the most loathsome behavior ever perpetrated by a major college football program. Because their acts involved assistant coaches, administrators and the head coach, you better damn well believe they've earned every bit of punishment that will unfortunately never come their way.

[PSUFAN]

Did anything that took place at PSU amount to an NCAA violation? That's the question that has yet to be answered finally. I don't believe anything has been brought forward. USC's violations were withing the NCAA's sphere of control. As mind-boggling and deplorable as the Sandusky Affair was/is, if there are no NCAA violations, then the NCAA has no jurisdiction to act. Read over the cases where LOIC was a factor in NCAA sanctions - you will find all of those sanctions address specific NCAA rule violations. If you know of such violations on the part of PSU, and I am simply unaware of them, then step forward and out with it.

Given the scrutiny on this issue, if there emerged the barest hint of an NCAA violation, would it not be brought to the fore immediately? We both know that it would.

The financial and legal repercussions of the Sandusky Affair will be distributed via a higher authority than the NCAA. And honestly - is punishment for the football team really enough as answer in this situation? Does that really hit the mark?

Rest assured that if there was a good argument that punishment for the program would bring solace to victims, then I would definitely be in support of it.

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

Isn't "LOIC" fairly broad? The NCAA might take some license in its application here, due to the unparalleled severity of what took place. I read a transcript a few days ago in which the NCAA prez seemed to hint that action against PSU, once everything has settled from a legal standpoint, would be likely.

[Van]

PSUFan, so, because the NCAA's rules and regulations committee didn't have the foresight to forbid child rape and the resulting cover-ups by that university's administration, they shouldn't have the power to punish a university for committing those acts? Did they really need to state that those are no-no's? Is that your argument?