PAC 10 Expansion?

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PAC 10 Expansion?

Post by FLW Buckeye »

According to Yahoo, the PAC 10 is also considering the idea of expanding.
Pac-10 commissioner Larry Scott says that if the conference is going to expand, a decision will likely be made in the next year.

Scott spoke Tuesday on a conference call to announce the hiring of former Big 12 commissioner Kevin Weiberg as his new deputy.

Scott said it made sense to have a decision about expansion before starting to negotiate new television deals that expire following the 2011-12 academic year.

Scott says “serious evaluation” of the topic will go on in the next six to 12 months. He said the primary factor in the decision will be finding schools that fit into the conference culturally and academically and determining whether the benefits of adding extra teams outweigh the costs.

Well, if they do expand, do they go 2, 4, or more? Who gets invited? BSU? Utah? BYU?

Discuss.
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Re: PAC 10 Expansion?

Post by Van »

If it's to be more than just an addition for football, BYU and Utah would seem to be the most natural fits. BSU brings nothing to the table at all, besides recent success in football. They wouldn't be competitive in any other sport, they aren't at the academic level of most Pac 10 schools, and their facilities aren't up to the Pac 10's level. Even their football team only plays in an oversized high school stadium.

The only way I could see adding BSU would be if they also added Fresno St, which would keep them on an even number.

I've heard talk of Texas, but that just seems so far-fetched. Texas has such a sweet deal now, why would they leave the Big XII? Geographically, that's also a bit of a reach, plus their inclusion would require another team to put the league back on an even number. So, who then? BSU? Colorado? TCU?

To me, Utah and BYU are the only ones which really make any sense. I suppose that in a perfect world it'd be cool to add Texas and Colorado too, but in that scenario Colorado would just be the proverbial 'player to be named later' throw-in baggage. Besides being another cool place to party and go skiing, they'd add nothing to the conference.

Yeah, it'd probably just be BYU and Utah, if it were to be anybody.
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Re: PAC 10 Expansion?

Post by Adelpiero »

rumors are, colorado and utah
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Re: PAC 10 Expansion?

Post by Van »

Why split up BYU and Utah like that, and why would the Pac 10 want Colorado over BYU? Is it just because of BYU's whacked-out religious bent?
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Re: PAC 10 Expansion?

Post by King Crimson »

Van wrote:Why split up BYU and Utah like that, and why would the Pac 10 want Colorado over BYU? Is it just because of BYU's whacked-out religious bent?
Denver media market. firmly plants the Pac 10 in two time zones. however, i don't see it for CU though it's been an ongoing wish for a vocal group of CU fans as long as i've been here. CU also has a very large alumni base in California (they say). out of CU's unusually large out-of-state student base, i see more kids in classes from NY, New England and Chicago but there are lot of Cali kids.

in Denver these days you almost never see Pac 10 games on ABC, CBS, NBC.

also, as i mentioned in another thread, CU was offered to the Pac in 94 or 96. but, the CU athletics of 94/96 are much different than today.
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Re: PAC 10 Expansion?

Post by Van »

Seems like a lose-lose for the Pac 10. They lose the ability to play every team in-conference, and in adding Colorado they gain nothing of any real value. Picking up the Denver media market isn't going to mean much, since Denver doesn't seem to give a rat's ass about the Buffs. Denver seems to be a professional sports-oriented town, with little patience for or interest in their meh local college program.

I'd rather ditch Washington St while adding BYU, Utah and Texas. That'd be some meaningful hopey-changey stuff. Adding Utah and Colorado merely gives them a farcical money-grab CCG, which they don't need. It would likely also mean going back to an eight-game conference schedule, which would mean more OOC cupcakes for most teams.

Screw all that. If all they're going to do is add Utah and Colorado, nah, it's not worth it. There's nothing to get excited about there. Leave it alone.
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Re: PAC 10 Expansion?

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R-Jack wrote:No school from a landlocked state should be in the PAC-10. End of discussion.

Good bye, ASU and 'Zona...
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Re: PAC 10 Expansion?

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R-Jack wrote:No school from a landlocked state should be in the PAC-10. End of discussion.
part of my "never gonna happen" reasoning that a true Mountain states conference with a legit BCS bid would include both AZ schools, BYU, Utah, Boise, Colorado, AFA, UNM, CSU etc. possibly Texas Tech if TCU wants to hang around as well. Pac goes back to 8, Big XII to ten team conf schedule (possibly) where everybody plays everybody.

Van: CU may be "meh" as a program now but wasn't so long ago that CU had a near decade run in the top 10 and USC was "meh". CU is not USC, not my point, but we get caught up in these dream scenarios focused in the short term ans with a healthy fetish for football only. like OU homer board fan's obsessive desire to dump Baylor and add TCU based on about a 5 year run that is football only. Baylor has *by far* the more complete AD. Boise is a bit like TCU in this regard.
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Re: PAC 10 Expansion?

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KC, Colorado had one good stretch, and it was in football only. They bring nothing to the table in basketball or baseball, and they aren't even consistently good in football. They're currently bad in football, and it's mainly football we're talking about here.

BYU and Utah are both better all-around programs, plus they're local rivals. The Pac 10 has five sets of in-state, natural rivals. Bringing in Utah and Colorado makes nowhere near as much competitive sense as bringing in Utah and BYU.
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Re: PAC 10 Expansion?

Post by MiketheangrydrunkenCUfan »

Colorado fielded some damn good teams in the '70s too. there was one year when NU, OU and CU finished 1, 2 and 3. Not in the Big 8, mind you, but in the fucking country.

That said, I see you working with the natural, in-state rival thing for BYU & Utah. It does make more sense. CU is in kind of a weird spot. Socially and culturally, Colorado is much more of a "Western" state than a "Midwestern" state. But geographically, they fit better with the Big XII. I would hate to see the annual (non)rivalry game with Nebraska fall by the wayside.

As far as Texas bolting for the Pac 10, that just seems absurd. Doesn't the Big XII already cater to their every whim?
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Re: PAC 10 Expansion?

Post by Van »

Yeah, that's a large part of it to me. Who would be Utah's and Colorado's conference rivals in the Pac 10? Neither team has any real history with each other, or with any team in the Pac 10. Colorado has long ties with the traditional Big 8 teams, and Utah has long ties with BYU. Sticking those two in the Pac 10, they'd be on their own islands, both geographically and competitively.

For that matter, so would Texas, unless TCU also came along for the ride. That's just not going to happen, and besides, Texas doesn't even concern themselves over TCU. In no way are they even 'peers', much less rivals.

Fuck it. I have the solution.

1-Drop Washington St.

2-Add Utah, BYU and Boise St.

3-Add Texas and Oklahoma.

Nice football conference then, ya think? :mrgreen:
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Re: PAC 10 Expansion?

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MiketheangrydrunkenCUfan wrote:Colorado fielded some damn good teams in the '70s too. there was one year when NU, OU and CU finished 1, 2 and 3. Not in the Big 8, mind you, but in the fucking country.
the 71 CU team finished #3. that Eddie Crowder team won at LSU and at Ohio State--both were in the top 10. only two losses were to NU and OU in the "Game of the Century" year. CU also tied for a share of the conference title in 76 and played in the Orange Bowl. the 70 Buff team rolled #4 Penn State in Boulder 41-13. Barnett won the Big XII in 01, were a top 5-10 team. they've had a high-degree success in 3 different decades. that's "program" stability across 40 years under 3 different coaches. not just one stretch.

Colorado in all the "all-time wins", most times in the rankings, winning % type lists is consistently a top 20-25 type program all-time. so, while they do suck out loud right now...it's a respectable tradition better than well over half the teams currently in the Pac 10.

edit: in fact, according to wiki (assuming this is correct), only #10 USC has more football wins than #20 Colorado of current Pac 10 member schools.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NCAA_Divis ... ss_records

and to be comprehensive, winning %: only USC, UW, and ASU (WAC aided) rank ahead of CU (#24).

http://collegefootball.about.com/gi/o.h ... house.com/

so, to sum, i think the "one stretch" comment is a bit iffy.
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Re: PAC 10 Expansion?

Post by Van »

I'd still rather have BYU and Utah. You can keep Colorado.
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Re: PAC 10 Expansion?

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apparently BYU doesn't want to play on Sundays and that's a dealbreaker with the Pac.

sin,

Rumor Mill

however, Van, i just think you were wrong about CU having "one stretch" and provided the evidence. :D
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Re: PAC 10 Expansion?

Post by Van »

They've had one stretch of relevance in my football watching lifetime. They apparently also had a nice little run right around 1970, but it included no conference titles (only one in the '70s, in '76), and how long did that run last?

Doing a quick check on them, lessee...

They're 12-15 in bowl games. Not many bowl appearances, and not a good record in those appearances, despite the fact that the majority of those bowl games were in shitty bowls.

The majority of their highest winning percentage seasons came at the turn of the century - and I don't mean this century. Minus all those .700 and even .800 seasons back around 1900, Colorado's winning percentage doesn't look that great.

They've won only one Big XII title, and they won only five Big 8 titles.

Yeah, fairly meh, and football is their good sport. They're useless in basketball and baseball, while academically they're never going to be confused with Stanford. There's just nothing to get excited over with them.
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Re: PAC 10 Expansion?

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Van wrote: while academically they're never going to be confused with Stanford. There's just nothing to get excited over with them.
i was waiting for this piece of predictable message board homerism. you do realize that Iowa State is ranked higher than half of the Pac 10 by the US News? that's going to be a tough sell based in fact for ya.

oh academic smack, cruel master of the coastal yoga self-suck. you and Dins need to get together.

anyway, i'm just saying you want to rip Colorado, they have more wins than any member of the Pac other than USC...place in the top half of the conference in your demeaned "academic" rankings...?

i think you are taco bell talking out yo' ass.
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Re: PAC 10 Expansion?

Post by Van »

King Crimson wrote:
Van wrote: while academically they're never going to be confused with Stanford. There's just nothing to get excited over with them.
i was waiting for this piece of predictable message board homerism. you do realize that Iowa State is ranked higher than half of the Pac 10 by the US News? that's going to be a tough sell based in fact for ya.

oh academic smack, cruel master of the coastal yoga self-suck. you and Dins need to get together.

anyway, i'm just saying you want to rip Colorado, they have more wins than any member of the Pac other than USC...place in the top half of the conference in your demeaned "academic" rankings...?

i think you are taco bell talking out yo' ass.
The point is that in addition to being no good at most sports they're also no Stanford academically. So, if they're only meh at football and they're a nonentity in other sports, what would they bring to the table? Not even academics? Okay then, what? TVs in the Denver market, most of which won't be tuned in to see them anyway?

S_M, if Colorado doesn't even play baseball, yeah, I'd say my assertion that they're useless in baseball stands. They may as well not play basketball either, for all the relevancy of Colorado hoops.

All they bring to the table is football, and the Pac 10 doesn't need another meh football program, especially a stand-alone program a few states removed from the west coast.
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Re: PAC 10 Expansion?

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This was discussed at great leangths by the local radio honks lately (not completely out-of-left-field, since they had Larry Scott on the show prior to the discussions).

And pretty much everyone weighing in on the expansion of Oregon's Conference (well yeah, they did actually start it) pretty much concluded Utah and BYU were the only real choices.

As Van pointed out, Boise St. does nothing but play football (quite well, as of late) in a high school stadium (although that could be fixed, theoretically), and nothing else. Let's not forget that the PAC is a bigtime baseball, basketball, and track&field conference as well.

The other point brought up, and I'm merely citing the radio honks, since I couldn't tell you the first thing about it, but they've mentioned on more than one occasion that BSU does very little in the way of scientific research, which is the academic hallmark of the PAC schools.

But I see Van is talking about booting WSU again -- maybe the PAC should ditch any school that has a few years of bad football teams. The conference standings would look something like:

...

...

...




And we could rename it the PAC 0.


R-Jack has me thinking... boot Zona and ASU, for being landlocked. Replace them with...

I dunno. Fresno St.? The we'd only need to find one more school in OR/CA/WA that has decent across-the-board sports...

Well, OK, there isn't one. Maybe in my lifetime, Portland State will take their sports seriously, and figure out they need to throw a bunchabuncha cash at it for a few years. It's an extremely large school (bigger than U of O or OS), with a lot of wealthy alumni -- and very few of them give a shit about the sports. They started playing basketball again about 10 years ago, because they can do that on the cheap. But the football just keeps getting worse, and even Glanville couldn't change that.


Keep the PAC the way it is, IMO.
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Re: PAC 10 Expansion?

Post by Terry in Crapchester »

Van wrote:Seems like a lose-lose for the Pac 10. They lose the ability to play every team in-conference, and in adding Colorado they gain nothing of any real value. Picking up the Denver media market isn't going to mean much, since Denver doesn't seem to give a rat's ass about the Buffs. Denver seems to be a professional sports-oriented town, with little patience for or interest in their meh local college program.

I'd rather ditch Washington St while adding BYU, Utah and Texas. That'd be some meaningful hopey-changey stuff. Adding Utah and Colorado merely gives them a farcical money-grab CCG, which they don't need. It would likely also mean going back to an eight-game conference schedule, which would mean more OOC cupcakes for most teams.

Screw all that. If all they're going to do is add Utah and Colorado, nah, it's not worth it. There's nothing to get excited about there. Leave it alone.
I see your point. But conference expansion isn't about what's best for the fans any longer (if it ever was). Instead, it's about power-grabbing, getting the biggest piece of the pie you can get for yourself and shafting everybody else. And if the Big Ten expands, you can bet there'll be plenty of pressure on the Pac-10, whether self-made or not, to expand as well.

In that regard, Pac-10 expansion and the much-balleyhooed possible Big Ten expansion aren't worlds apart.

We've all seen the candidates for Big Ten expansion that have been proffered by any number of experts internet yayhoos with big mouths. How many of those names will be exciting to Big Ten fan? By my count, three (ND, Texas and Nebraska), of which at least two (ND and Texas) are schools the Big Ten has next to no shot at landing. The name you saw thrown around in the most serious manner was Pitt. Does Pitt excite the typical Big Ten fan? Probably not, but it does, as King Crimson pointed out, shore up the conference's current outpost (Penn State). It also would give the Big Ten a CCG and would weaken the Big East. And not necessarily in that order of priority for the Big Ten.

In many ways, the relationship between the MWC and the Pac-10 is similar to the relationship between the Big 10 and the Big East. In both cases, there is a little bit of an overlap between otherwise neighboring conferences. The Big East is the biggest athletic threat to the Big 10 of neighboring conferences, as is the MWC to the Pac-10. As expansion by the Big 10 potentially weakens the Big East, expansion by the Pac-10 similarly weakens the MWC. Yes, there are differences -- most notably, the Big East is a BCS conference whereas the MWC is not. Even there, of course, both conferences are pretty close calls in that regard.

So yeah, the Pac-10 could very well expand, if for no other reason than to weaken the bargaining power of the MWC, while strengthening their own bargaining power.

As for Colorado, they're the most likely addition to the Pac-10 among current BCS-level schools. And they're located in a neighboring state to Utah (as well as a state that form part of the four corners with Arizona), so it's not as huge a reach as you make it out to be. Colorado-Utah could become a rivalry if both schools were added to the Pac-10 at the same time. It wouldn't be any more contrived a rivalry than, say, Michigan State-Penn State in the Big Ten.
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Re: PAC 10 Expansion?

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Does Pitt excite the typical Big Ten fan?
Yes
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Re: PAC 10 Expansion?

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Dinsdale wrote:I couldn't tell you the first thing about it
Sigworthy.
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Re: PAC 10 Expansion?

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it doesn't matter that CU is lost in a pro-sports market in Denver. in fact, it's kind of the opposite. the ad/media stronghold here is the conference. Oklahoma, Nebraska or Texas are on more than Colorado. kind of why Van is missing the point in at least one way. i almost never (never) miss an OU game. switch it up, and it's the Pac on TV all day. doesn't matter who plays, it's just that the conference is on the tellie. and Pac friendly ads get sold. that's how TV works. selling audiences to advertisers. Denver has people who watch BTPCF like every other major media market.....but they are "open".

to discount this as possible revenue is moronic or loving up the status quo for style points.
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Re: PAC 10 Expansion?

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IndyFrisco wrote:
Dinsdale wrote:I couldn't tell you the first thing about it
Sigworthy.

Nice catch. I believe there is now some ice in hell.
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Re: PAC 10 Expansion?

Post by Van »

Terry, the big difference is that Penn St and Michigan or Ohio St automatically become natural rivals, simply by virtue of their all being prestigious, history-laden programs. Adding Penn St to a room which already contains Michigan and Ohio St is like adding another battle-tested pitbull to a fighting ring. Penn St must take down Ohio St and Michigan, and they know that they must take down Penn St, since the Nittany Lions ( :lol: ) automatically become the only other team in the conference who will ever be a threat to win a national title.

Suddenly putting Colorado and Utah in the same ring doesn't offer any of that. Neither school has any history with each other, nor much of a history at all. Neither program will look at the other as the big dog in the ring who must be taken down.

Dins, I only mention ditching WSU in order to keep the number even. Adding Texas would put the league on an odd number, as would adding Utah, BYU and Texas. If they're only adding two teams, then sure, obviously WSU stays.

The other thing about WSU is that no, it's not just because they recently suck so badly. They've only had a couple of short spurts of being good, and they suck at every other sport, plus they're no great shakes academically. They have the worst facilities in the conference, and other than for the occasional good football season they simply don't add anything to the Pac 10. They're our Mississippi St, albeit with more football success.
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Re: PAC 10 Expansion?

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Van wrote:Terry, the big difference is that Penn St and Michigan or Ohio St automatically become natural rivals, simply by virtue of their all being prestigious, history-laden programs.
Penn State is a rival? I don't think so. More like a third wheel.

Penn State-Michigan never will be rivals. You already have tOSU as Michigan's main rival. Beyond that, Michigan also has ND, and I suppose you even have to give a grudging nod to Sparty as a rival for Michigan. So that puts Penn State in fourth place, at best. Penn State will never be a true rival to Michigan.

tOSU is a slightly different story. Traditional football powers in adjacent states -- Penn State and tOSU could be rivals. There's only one problem. tOSU already has a rival -- Michigan -- and that rivalry already transcends the entire conference. tOSU isn't about to dump Michigan for the new kid on the block as its principal rival anytime soon. So Penn State has to settle for second place.

Michigan State? Puh-leeze. That one looks rather obviously contrived -- on both sides of the equation. True college football rivalries have to originate from the bottom up. A conference cannot simply designate two schools as "rivals," then expect a rivalry to develop.

So, if Michigan's sloppy seconds are good enough for Penn State, more power to them. If I were Penn State fan (full disclosure: that could've happened quite easily under slightly different circumstances), that wouldn't be good enough for me. Think about who has been the most vocal advocate for Big Ten expansion, as well as the area where that person wants to expand, and I think it becomes quite obvious that even Penn State knows that the move to the Big Ten has left it without a true rival.

As for Colorado and Utah, my point was that given the relative geography of those two schools, as well as the unique geography of the rest of the Pac-10, Colorado and Utah probably would form a rivalry in relatively short order without any prodding from the conference if they both joined the Pac-10 at the same time. Not that either one would contend for domination in the conference immediately.
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Re: PAC 10 Expansion?

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Tough enough keeping the Pac Islander mormons on the coast....give the Utah schools more exposure and fuggetit...byu plays too many old guys....

Like the sound of Colorado and Colorado St.
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Re: PAC 10 Expansion?

Post by King Crimson »

can one of the pac 10 peeps explain this "travel partners" thing i keep reading about and why is it important?
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Re: PAC 10 Expansion?

Post by King Crimson »

Screw_Michigan wrote:When teams play road games, they play two teams from the same locale in the same weekend. They play at both, for example, USC-UCLA, Ariz-ASU, Cal-Stan, WSU-UW, UO-OSU, in the same weekend. In bball it's either Thu-Sat or Thu-Sun. Saves on travel expenses.
i get bracketing the two weekend hoops games together, but i don't get how it works in football. and how that saves travel $ because you aren't playing two football games with one travel cost. and why do you need to travel with another team? or why traveling with a partner affects your cost at all?

there's something here i'm missing.
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Re: PAC 10 Expansion?

Post by Felix »

Van wrote:If it's to be more than just an addition for football, BYU and Utah would seem to be the most natural fits.
agreed
BSU brings nothing to the table at all, besides recent success in football. They wouldn't be competitive in any other sport, they aren't at the academic level of most Pac 10 schools, and their facilities aren't up to the Pac 10's level. Even their football team only plays in an oversized high school stadium.
actually they already compete (and dominate) in the Pac 10 in wrestling, but other than that you're pretty much spot on...

if Utah and BYU bail, Fresno and BSU would be likely replacements in the Mountain West.....don't know that I think that's that much of an upgrade, but at least they'd be rid of Hawaii, which is a athletic department budget killer
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Van
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Re: PAC 10 Expansion?

Post by Van »

The Pac 10 wrestles?

:lol:
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Re: PAC 10 Expansion?

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All you need to know about "PAC10" wrestling -- UC Davis is pretty dominant in PAC10 wrasslin'.

Only schools that even field teams are OS, ASU, and Furd.

Arizona State
Boise State
Cal Poly
Cal State Bakersfield
Cal State Fullerton
Oregon State
Stanford
UC Davis
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Van
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Re: PAC 10 Expansion?

Post by Van »

Yeah, I don't think we need to see some moussed up Mark Harmon fag wearing a baby blue leotard clamping down on Trojan nutsack with a well-rehearsed special hold.
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Re: PAC 10 Expansion?

Post by Felix »

BSU has been a division 1-A program all of 11 years....stuff like 92,000 seat stadiums take time....it would be ridiculous for Boise to try and compete week in and week out in that conference

but, on any given day...who knows

right Dins
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Q, West Coast Style
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Re: PAC 10 Expansion?

Post by Q, West Coast Style »

Van,

Still trying to ditch WSU?

You do know the conference expansion movement is driven by TV dollars don't you?

Do you know about half of all WSU grads live in the Seattle market? Why would the Pac-10 want to dilute their largest Northwest market?

And Spokane, while not huge (75th largest) is sill a bigger market than Boise (112th).

http://www.tvb.org/rcentral/markettrack ... by_dma.asp

And despite being historically awful of late, WSU still handily beat BSU in football recruiting this year. So recruits still obviously consider it a Pac-10 school even if you don't.
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Re: PAC 10 Expansion?

Post by Van »

Q, again, I was only talking in terms of dropping them if the number became uneven...as in adding Texas. I'm not serious about it anyway. We're just spitballing here.
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Re: PAC 10 Expansion?

Post by Dinsdale »

Felix wrote:BSU has been a division 1-A program all of 11 years....stuff like 92,000 seat stadiums take time....it would be ridiculous for Boise to try and compete week in and week out in that conference

but, on any given day...who knows

right Dins
Oh, they seem to compete just fine. And if they join a real conference, recruiting would obviously see a massive upswing, making them more competitive.

But most people consider Autzen at 60K to be barely adequate for BigBoy football, so 30,000 ain't going to cut it.

The Mountain West needs to be seriously tweeked, and get all the better programs into one conf, and make them a BCS conf... makes sense to me. Put BSU, BYU, Fresno, maybe Air Force, TCU, Utah together, and it's a real conference all of a sudden.


Q -- correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Wazzu average about 14,000 a game or something last season? My idea recently was for them to play OOC games in Seattle (Seahawk Stadium, maybe?), and let us not forget that Wazzu has a pretty large campus in Vantucky, so have another OOC game in PGE Park in Portland (shitty stadium, but in proximity to the other campus).

Fuckers just need to get their name in the spotlight again, which should help the road to recovery.
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Re: PAC 10 Expansion?

Post by Felix »

Dinsdale wrote:
Oh, they seem to compete just fine. And if they join a real conference, recruiting would obviously see a massive upswing, making them more competitive.
just out of curiousity, how much more competitive do you want them to be?
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Re: PAC 10 Expansion?

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Image
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Re: PAC 10 Expansion?

Post by SoCalTrjn »

King Crimson wrote:can one of the pac 10 peeps explain this "travel partners" thing i keep reading about and why is it important?
that has to do with faggotball, volleyball, tennis... When the teams go on the road in conference play over the weekends they will play the 2 schools that are near each other ie USC/UCLA; ASU/Arizona; Cal/Stanford; Oregon/Oregon State; Washington/Washington State.
If you were to add two schools and have them not be geographically near each other you will screw with the way the conference likes to do things.
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Re: PAC 10 Expansion?

Post by Terry in Crapchester »

SoCalTrjn wrote:
King Crimson wrote:can one of the pac 10 peeps explain this "travel partners" thing i keep reading about and why is it important?
that has to do with faggotball, volleyball, tennis...
So basketball is "faggotball," but volleyball, with the Speedo-type shorts, isn't? :meds:

If contact is your thing, at least basketball provides a little of it (loose balls, rebounds, etc.). Last I checked, you're not allowed to hit your opponent in volleyball or tennis.
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