for the christians here: at what point

[Felix]

exactly when does a baby take on the responsibility of original sin....when does it become a reprehensible sinner that must accept jesus as their savior or be cast to eternal torture....is it at the point of conception, when it becomes viable (able to live outside the mothers womb), or when it's delivered (at full term) and takes it's first breath?

I asked a christian bud of mine, and he really didn't know

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

exactly when does a baby take on the responsibility of original sin....

When it splits mama's tenderloin tunnel.

First it has to breath "evil air".

[Tom In VA]

Conception

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

Conception

What if there was DP action going on at the time of conception? Does that buy a "stay of execution" for a couple of months?

[poptart]

Adam and Eve surely died (Genesis 2:17) and could only produce ... death.

Psalms 51:5
Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.


I suspect the point you want to get at, Felix, is that an aborted baby goes to hell, according to the Christian?

I can't answer it, if that is your question.


Revelation 19:2
For true and righteous are his (God's) judgments

[Tom In VA]

I think a blanket answer to the question of who gets into heaven or not would be ...

"That's up to God".

8-Dec is the feast of the Immaculate Conception accoring to Catholic doctrine, perhaps the Virgin Mary's parents were doing what Marty suggested - I don't know - but it is a celebration of the conception of Mary, believed to be without original sin.

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

Adam and Eve surely died (Genesis 2:17) and could only produce ... death.

Psalms 51:5
Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.


I suspect the point you want to get at, Felix, is that an aborted baby goes to hell, according to the Christian?

I can't answer it, if that is your question.


Revelation 19:2
For true and righteous are his (God's) judgments

I don't see anything there about DP.

Tom, I need answers.

[Johnny Bold]

I'm not into the fearing of G-d for the sake of teh hell thing, which doesn't bode to well within the argumentative state of messageboardville, but what the hey:

By me - every human born has the opportunity to embrace the ultimate instruction for living according to their Creators will, which Jesus Christ clearly laid down for the all of mankind.
I believe that if a human chooses to follow Christ's instruction in this regard, they will be eternally better off for it, if not, well that's G-ds call.
By my understanding; thanks to Christ, our Heavenly Father is a G-d of compassion, love, and forgiveness - therefore, I seriously doubt that those humans who gleam on good souls being thrown into the fires of hell, will be getting to lick their phelpian like lips on that one anytime too soon.

G-d Is Love - Love Is G-ds Will
Judgment is for others...and hell is for teh haters.

Thank You, Jesus.

[Felix]

By me - every human born has the opportunity to embrace the ultimate instruction for living according to their Creators will, which Jesus Christ clearly laid down for the all of mankind.
I believe that if a human chooses to follow Christ's instruction in this regard, they will be eternally better off for it, if not, well that's G-ds call.

why is it necessary for humans to have to choose? oh that's right, god commanded us to have free will (irony personified)....wouldn't it have just been easier for god/jesus to provide everyone with the same intrinsic nature of right and wrong? after all, he's the creator of the universe and could have set it up anyway he wanted

By my understanding; thanks to Christ, our Heavenly Father is a G-d of compassion, love, and forgiveness - therefore, I seriously doubt that those humans who gleam on good souls being thrown into the fires of hell, will be getting to lick their phelpian like lips on that one anytime too soon.

the "heavenly father" is compassionate, love, and forgiveness? based on most of the christians I've talked to, I get the idea that he's a petty meglomaniac who's only rule is that you must worship and adore him otherwise you'll be cast into eternal torture...does that really sound like a loving father to you?

G-d Is Love - Love Is G-ds Will

just so long as you worship and adore him, otherwise it's the fire of eternal torture for you

Judgment is for others...and hell is for teh haters.

really? then why is it that so many "christians" are so judgemental of me by telling me that I'm heading straight to eternal torture because I don't believe what they believe? sounds about as judgementantal as one can get, but maybe I'm misinterpreting

Thank You, Jesus.

yeah, thanks for creating all of those blood thirsty fanatics, abortion bombers, religious zealots and the like that commit the most despicable acts immaginable because they honestly believe they have "god" on their side

[Johnny Bold]

^
G-d is not to blame for the sins of man, like the car maker is not to blame for the actions of drunk drivers.
To use the interpretations of others to deprive oneself from seeking out a personal relationship with ones Heavenly Father is sad and weak with the possibility of being tragic.

Anyone can call them self a christian, Felix.

Matthew 7:21-23:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=KJV

[Rootbeer]

From a Mormon perspective:

Children are born innocent. One person cannot inherit the sins of another; each person is responsible for his or her own actions, but the sins of the innocent are automatically paid for by the atonement of Christ.

Children reach the age of accountability at 8 years old. They can be baptized by water and by the spirit, and thereafter they are subject to the laws of obedience and sacrifice.

"But what if a child dies before they are baptized? Are they doomed to everlasting damnation in the firey pits of HELL?" You ask?

No. Why would a just God prescribe such an unjust punishment on the most innocent of all beings created in His image? Simple answer: He wouldn't. God is just. His justice is fair and equal; his blessings are available to all, including those whom die in the womb or at infancy.

In the Momo church, we believe the living are able to perform the ordinances of salvation for the dead. Ordinances are performed in the holiest place on earth, the temple. Living persons take upon themselves the name of a dead person, and are baptized for and in behalf of that person. Baptism is a physical ordinance, as demonstrated by Jesus Christ in the waters of Jordan. A living person with a physical body must perform the ordinance, but by taking on the name of the deceased, the dead person can receive the blessings of that ordinance.

Thus, a provision is made to ensure all persons, living and dead, are able to return to the presence of our Heavenly Father.

Baptism for the dead is not a new concept. In Paul's first epistle to the Corinthians, he addressed the question of resurrection. Some early church members were apparently doubting Christ's rise from the dead, and that we could also be resurrected from death to perfection. Paul presented as evidence, the fact that the early church was performing baptisms for the dead. "If the dead rise not at all, why are they then baptized for the dead?" (1 Cor. 15:29)

I'm not sure when the early Christian churches stopped performing baptisms for the dead, but I know the Momos are the only ones performing them now.

[Diogenes]

exactly when does a baby take on the responsibility of original sin....

He doesn't. Only the responsibility for his own sins, when he is old enough to understand.

[poptart]

There are many places to look, but if one looks at John 3:36 they see a direct contrast given between those who believe in Jesus Christ and have eternal life, and those who do not believe and shall not see life.

John 3:36
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Why is this the case?

It is because Adam and Eve died a spiritual death in the day that they became removed from the source of life, God (Genesis 2:17).

All humanity died a spiritual death on that day because two dead beings can only produce - death.

So God skipped right over the COMPLETELY failed humanity and promised a Savior would come who is NOT a decendant of Adam - this is the seed of the woman - Genesis 3:15.

It is the Savior produced by God's Holy Spirit - and this is Christ Jesus.

Everything from Adam has ... surely died ... a spiritual death.

Anything that physically dies without having taken the seed of the woman is forever gonzo.

It shall not live - John 3:36.


We as humans can wring our hands over this and imagine God to be "unjust" to have things going on in this manner, but God's ways are not our ways, and yes, God is perfect and just (Revelations 19:2).


It's a scary thing to take A verse, 1 Corinthians 15:29 in this case, and build an IMPORTANT point of theology around it.

Just as briefly as possible, the chapter of 1 Corinthians 15 is Paul speaking about the resurrection, and he says in v. 12 & 13 that some in Corinth have been teaching that there is no resurrection.

The whole chapter is then dealing with him explaining why this teaching is erroneous, and why the resurrection (of Christ, and of believers) is so important.

Then if you look at v. 29 compared to v. 30, the language is different -- there is a CONTRAST.

V. 29, given by some to show that there is baptism which can give salvation to those already physically dead, has Paul speaking of they.

V. 30, speaking of the danger that believers of Christ faced in that time, has Paul speaking of us.

If it was Paul's intention to speak in support of baptism of living believers for the sake of salvation for those already physically dead, he would have said we, just as he said us in the very next verse.

Paul was speaking of the misguided people in Corinth who engaged in this practice.

He is pointing out an inconsistency in the practice of these false teachers.
Apparently, they did not believe that the dead would rise (15:12), but they practiced proxy baptism for the dead.
If the dead do not rise, why did they baptize them after death?
It was a contradiction.

[Johnny Bold]

There can be but one truth.
I am so looking forward to when G-ds Will Be Done, and the record gets set straight once and for all.
Even if I am wrong.

[Tom In VA]

There can be but one truth.
I am so looking forward to when G-ds Will Be Done, and the record gets set straight once and for all.
Even if I am wrong.

There can be but one truth ? Okay, but there can be many roads and perceptions of that truth.

http://www.cs.princeton.edu/~rywang/ber ... rable.html

A number of disciples went to the Buddha and said, "Sir, there are living here in Savatthi many wandering hermits and scholars who indulge in constant dispute, some saying that the world is infinite and eternal and others that it is finite and not eternal, some saying that the soul dies with the body and others that it lives on forever, and so forth. What, Sir, would you say concerning them?"

The Buddha answered, "Once upon a time there was a certain raja who called to his servant and said, 'Come, good fellow, go and gather together in one place all the men of Savatthi who were born blind... and show them an elephant.' 'Very good, sire,' replied the servant, and he did as he was told. He said to the blind men assembled there, 'Here is an elephant,' and to one man he presented the head of the elephant, to another its ears, to another a tusk, to another the trunk, the foot, back, tail, and tuft of the tail, saying to each one that that was the elephant.

"When the blind men had felt the elephant, the raja went to each of them and said to each, 'Well, blind man, have you seen the elephant? Tell me, what sort of thing is an elephant?'

"Thereupon the men who were presented with the head answered, 'Sire, an elephant is like a pot.' And the men who had observed the ear replied, 'An elephant is like a winnowing basket.' Those who had been presented with a tusk said it was a ploughshare. Those who knew only the trunk said it was a plough; others said the body was a grainery; the foot, a pillar; the back, a mortar; the tail, a pestle, the tuft of the tail, a brush.

"Then they began to quarrel, shouting, 'Yes it is!' 'No, it is not!' 'An elephant is not that!' 'Yes, it's like that!' and so on, till they came to blows over the matter.

"Brethren, the raja was delighted with the scene.

"Just so are these preachers and scholars holding various views blind and unseeing.... In their ignorance they are by nature quarrelsome, wrangling, and disputatious, each maintaining reality is thus and thus."

Then the Exalted One rendered this meaning by uttering this verse of uplift,

O how they cling and wrangle, some who claim
For preacher and monk the honored name!
For, quarreling, each to his view they cling.
Such folk see only one side of a thing.
Jainism and Buddhism. Udana 68-69:
Parable of the Blind Men and the Elephant

So the answer is ..... nobody fucking knows. It once again all boils down to belief. If one feels a need to BELIEVE that if he or she buckle down and study the Bible and shout from the mountaintops that they have "Accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior" then so be it. The principle fact is the human animal has something within it that other animals don't seem to have.

A sense of and struggle against or for SPIRITUAL NATURE. Regardless. For such a fucked up species, I hear an awful lot of regurgitation of how JUST, and JUSTICE, and very little mention of the entire point of Christ's sacrifice which is .....

GOD'S MERCY for it is truly a merciful GOD to look upon us with anything other than utter contempt. The way we go around killing each other in mind, body and soul. Castigating our fellows, murdering them, defiling God's sons and daughter in every way imaginable.

Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful - Not enough of that. Too much "God is Just".

Seems pretty clear to me that God doesn't want us fallible beings mucking around in HIS business of determining who it is that goes to heaven and who does not.

For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Of all the gifts of God, the ability to reason has been one of the most interesting and is kind of a double edged sword. With it, we reason our way into iniquity - I know I have - but with it we can also come to believe the error of our ways - I have too - and reason that a CONVERSION OF THE HEART AND SOUL is necessary to move away from those ways. REASON also tells me that if a filthy beast such as myself can CHANGE through the power of the Holy Spirit, and somehow be FORGIVEN .... that an innocent life snuffed out before it can get into the sinfulness within our nature can be accepted by God if ....

I agree, personifying God is somewhat of an error in judgement. But Christ often used parables to describe the infinite nature of God's love, many times to explain that if a HUMAN BEING has the capacity to LOVE someone or something ... GOD'S CAPACITY to do the same is that much more infinitely vast.

The final answer, the ONLY answer is .....

I DO NOT KNOW and NOBODY DOES. I KNOW ONE THING ....



Someday this war is gonna end

In the meantime, those of us allowed to live and allowed to breathe the air around us and pick up a thing or two along the way have been tasked very simply with ....

Matthew 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done [it] unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done [it] unto me.

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Matthew 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

Matthew 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

Matthew 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

Matthew 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of the least of these, ye did [it] not to me.

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Pretty fucking simple if you ask me. Just because it's simple doesn't mean it's easy. Far easier to bury ones nose in a book that has been translated over and over and say "I ACCEPT JESUS AS MY SAVIOR" than to PRACTICE the above. To love the unloveable as God loves us. It is so much easier to glom onto the ego satsifying POWER and JUSTICE of GO-ODuh than to HUMBLE OURSELVES and recognize OUR OWN SINFULNESS while we show MERCY and COMPASSION for sinners and victims of sinners.

Not a sermon.

Just a thought.

[poptart]

The principle fact is the human animal has something within it that other animals don't seem to have.

A sense of and struggle against or for SPIRITUAL NATURE.

It is true.

The Bible tells us that only man was created in God's image - Genesis 1:27.

God's image is?

John 4:24
God is spirit

Man is the only thing God created that is, like God, a spiritual and eternal being.

As such, man has a spiritual hunger which he naturally seeks to fill.

Seems pretty clear to me that God doesn't want us fallible beings mucking around in HIS business of determining who it is that goes to heaven and who does not.

When God came to earth, He told us what the standard is.

John 3:36
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

We can not say with 100% certainty who it is that has believed on Christ, but we were told by God what the standard for salvation is.


Tom, regarding the Matthew 25 parable, it (on DIRECT reading) indicates that those who do good to help the needy will inherit eternal life and those who don't do such good for the needy will inherit eternal punishment.

Many non-believing folks, and folks who reject Christ (or engage in a religion) do such things to help the needy.

Do you think they inherit eternal life?

[Tom In VA]

pop, my gut instinct is to say YES, knowing full well you will provide scriptural references to admonish and correct me. But when we speak of "belief" we get into some pretty nebulous territory. The quote attributed to Christ as written in the book attributed to Matthew speaks to some pretty concrete ACTIONS, pretty DIRECT.

Now in reference to John 3:36
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

What IS a DIRECT reading when read by fallible human beings with relative notions on what BELIEF IS ? Is not performing the DIRECT actions PROSCRIBED by the Son an implicit expression of belief in the ONENESS of mankind - of the Father's creation ? That because of God's mercy and the sacrifice of the Son we are IN UNION with Him - if we choose to be whereas it was never possible before ?

The people to whom you refer may not believe in the personifications of God and of the Christ as passed down via Christian tradition, but they do believe in the SPIRIT, the SOUL, of RIGHTEOUSNESS from somewhere internal and external to themselves.

Will they get to paradise on the day of judgement ? I don't know for sure, I believe they will. I believe they will because I can conceive of a merciful God that will see - perhaps they were not raised in the tradition of Christ - perhaps they WERE raised Hindu or Buddhist and yet judge them based on their hearts. Based on the balance of their treatment of ALL God's creation, or the least of the Son's brethren. The only thing I know for sure is that if I - as a believer in Christ's sacrifice - happen to stumble into heaven based on His mercy - I am not going to argue the specifics of DIRECT reading vs. INDIRECT interpretation of specific passages when I see a Hindu in heaven.

"But God - what's HE doing here ? In John 3:36 someone translated your meaning several times into several different languages until it was in a language I understand and it means:

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

I await your counsel, not sarcastically. I'm just interested in what you say on these matters. I respect your heart and effort - in earnest.

[poptart]

I am going to put up a separate post about the parable in Matthew 25 when I have the time.

In a forum such as this, ability to fully explain (and reference Scripture) is limited.
There are SO many things that deserve to be elaborated on.
If you have the time, you can look at the Scriptures I've included.

With that in mind, I'll post this.

I would recommend for anyone to read the first three chapters of Genesis - slowly and carefully, and do so a few times.
It is critically important, as it explains what has happened to humanity.
And chapter three is SO important to look at and digest.
If a person doesn't catch on to that chapter (and specifically v. 15) understanding the rest of the Bible is like buttoning the first button of a jacket in the wrong hole ... and then proceeding to button all the rest of the buttons.

Some key points of the first three chapters:

Genesis 1:1 - God is the Creator of everything (John 1:3)
Genesis 1:27,28 - man is uniquely created (and blessed) in God's image (God is spirit - man is a spiritual being - John 4:24)
Genesis 2:17 - God said man would surely die in the day that he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
Genesis 3:1-20 - satan tricked man into eating, man became separated from God, man surely died spiritually, man's existence became one of curses
Genesis 3:15 - God immediately promised deliverance for man would come - the seed of the woman, NOT a seed of Adam
This is the "seed" of God - the savior born of God's Holy Spirit

Genesis 3:15 --> Isaiah 7:14 --> Galatians 4:3,4 --> 1 John 3:8 --> Matthew 16:16

Adam and Eve died spiritually.
If two dead things mate, they can only produce -- death

This is humanity's fundamental problem, as told to us in the Bible.

See this Scripture:

Ephesians 2:1-6
1: And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2: Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4: But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5: Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6: And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Paul was speaking to believers in Christ, and he told them that prior to believing they were DEAD, but now, through Christ, who IS the source of life, they live.

All of those people were physically alive and breathing.
But they were dead spiritually.

This spiritual death to humanity is what happened as a result of the incident of Genesis 3.

And then further in that Scripture from Ephesisans (v. 2,3), we see that the spiritually dead people (those who have not met God through Jesus Christ) are being dragged around and abused by satan - look back at Genesis 3:1-20.


If your father were to speak his very last words to you, what he had to say would be of much importance to you, yes?

How much more important would the last Words of Jesus Christ be?

See Matthew 28:16-20 and Acts 1:8

"Go to all the world and make disciples.
You will be witness to Me."

And the apostles, knowing the critical importance of this, went forth in the face of FIERCE persecution, to testify of Christ.

You know the kinds of deaths they willingly went to - because they knew that people HAD to put their trust in Christ, or they remain in a hopleless state of spiritual death.
People are in bondage to satan and they are perishing.

If people are somehow saved without a faith in Christ it makes no sense for Jesus to send these people out to be slaughtered in such a manner.



Romans 3:10
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one

Isaiah 64:6
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

[Tom In VA]

poptart,

I will read the first three chapters but to my understanding what has happened to humanity is rooted in the fact that we meddled in that which was not ours ... in knowledge ... reserved only for God. In short, we meddled in the business of God - without the omniscient and omnipotent qualities of God. We are like First Graders trying to do Calculus. That includes answering questions such as who goes to heaven and who does not, in my opinion.

Being witness to Christ through actions - speaks louder than being witness to Christ via words. I'm open to the possibility that I have a fallible understanding of Matthew 25, I look forward to your post on that.

[poptart]

I will post about Matthew 25, but I am curious for feedback on something, before that.

What do you make of Adam and Eve surely dying - Genesis 2:17, Genesis 3:1-6, and God then immediately promising the seed of the woman, who would bruise the head of the serpent - Genesis 3:15?

Interested in your (or anyone's) feedback on this.

[Tom In VA]

poptart,

I make of it a description of the human condition. There is an awareness of but a profound sense lacking contact with - the Creator. I could go into my philosophical opinion on what it means. To me, of all the animals in the field the human animal is the one with this sense and with a severe disconnect between the mind - the body - and the spirit. Our instincts are not tuned as are the instincts of the other beasts in the field. Our instincts are on rampage and lead us into destruction without "help". We, as a species have sought that help through many different things. Despite that help, we continue to have our heels nipped at by things that would warp our natural instincts. I believe that the 7 deadly sins concisely and accurately describe what those things are and I've found that other religions too indicate how destructive unchecked and misdirected pride, gluttony, sloth, wrath, envy, greed and lust. There are variations of course but they all describe some of the most destructive aspects of our nature. A nature that seems distinctly more "unnatural" than that of the other beasts.

The knowledge of what is good and what is evil, is God's. God's alone. Like I said, we peeked at the book without the knowledge and capacity to fully understand. Our judgement is fallible, often our mercy is non-existent and our justice - self serving.

God's is perfect. His dominion and infinte knowledge, power, etc.. is one thing ....

Us ?

"Selfishness — self-centeredness! That, we think, is the root of our troubles. Driven by a hundred forms of fear, self-delusion, self-seeking, and self-pity, we step on the toes of our fellows and they retaliate"

When we play God, we fuck things up.

[poptart]

Our instincts are on rampage and lead us into destruction without "help". We, as a species have sought that help through many different things.

Yes, I agree.


The first three chapters of Genesis are fundamentally important, and I especially wanted to know what you thought of this specifically --

What do you make of Adam and Eve surely dying - Genesis 2:17, Genesis 3:1-6, and God then immediately promising the seed of the woman, who would bruise the head of the serpent - Genesis 3:15?

But perhaps even more fundamentally, I should ask this.

Do you regard the Bible as God's Word for us?

Or, how do you regard it?

[Johnny Bold]

If I can be ever so bold.
From a Christian standpoint - the Bible can only be considered valid when the words practiced therein assist one when it comes to following the loving teachings of Christ.

What is behind the curtain is
what our window dressing can not change.

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

...the Bible can only be considered valid when the words practiced therein assist one when it comes to following the loving teachings of Christ.

A scratch-off lottery ticket can only be considered valid when the three lucky horseshoes contained therein assist one when it comes to winning a lot of money.

[Tom In VA]

poptart,

More or less. I just question, is it God's ONLY word for us ? I wasn't there when they selected what should and shouldn't be included in the Bible. Was the text that was excised out any more or less God's word for us ?

Psalms, isn't that more a book of King David's word for God ?

The New Testament, Jesus, was constantly challenged by the elders who believed they best represented God's Word and God's Laws. He pointed out their hypocrisy, clarified a few things for us all, and in my belief fullfilled prophecy. His word for us is in there.

I don't know. I'm cursed with the name Thomas and I've been pretty true to my namesake. "Blessed is he who has not seen but has believed". But I've had to see. I have seen, so I believe what I believe.

I still question much though.

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

poptart,

Why do you even bother? He's just going to list Bible scriptures for you, then bail.

[poptart]

Large portions of Psalms are prophetic and what was written by David was fulfilled by Jesus Christ.
Those are not his writings.

Jesus Himself spoke of the Old Testament Scriptures as The Word of God, and not that they merely contained the Word of God - ex. Matthew 15:6, John 10:35, Mark 7:13.

I'm not inclined to get into all the reasons why the various writings which were excluded from the New Testament are not God's Word, because there is just SO much to say about it.

It's off on a trail I'm not wishing to go on.

Of course people are free to think what they want about it.
I'm just giving you my perspective.

Imo, there is no other Word of God other than Christ (who IS the Word - John 1:1) and the Bible.


It's worth noting that the very first thing satan wanted to do to man was have him disbelieve God's Word and tell him it's not true - Genesis 3:1,4.

[Johnny Bold]

By me - The Bible can be a great teacher, a good friend, and a true guide.
One just needs not to allow bible scripture to supersede Christs Indwelling Holy Spirit of Truth.
There are way to many folks out there wielding the bible like a sword, trying to cut others down to their size.
The Phelps Family comes to mind as a prime example of how The Good Book can be used for bad.


THE EIGHT BEATITUDES OF JESUS

Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are they who mourn,
for they shall be comforted.

Blessed are the meek,
for they shall inherit the earth.

Blessed are they who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they shall be satisfied.

Blessed are the merciful,
for they shall obtain mercy.

Blessed are the pure of heart,
for they shall see God.

Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they shall be called children of God.

Blessed are they who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

http://www.jesuschristsavior.net/Beatitudes.html

I think it's interesting to note that those covered within the Beatitudes who are not given a direct pass onto Heaven, are still going to be okay.

[Tom In VA]

Had and interesting conversation along these lines with my mum.

I had forgotten the Catholic Church's ruling on these things. Come to find out, they weren't that far off from Poptart's assertion initially. Then it evolved into "limbo". So those unbaptized - yet righteous like Moses even - would wile away the millenium in Limbo waiting for the "Final Judgement".

That somewhat segues into what I'm going to presume poptart will tell us about Matt 25. pop ?

Since, I don't know if it was Vatican II or what, the concept of "limbo" (not purgatory) has been tabled and it is suggested the righteous all get to heaven when they die.

It is all, always, all the time and no way around the fact that it is a very subjective interpretation of scripture if you ask me.

No matter one's outlook on the subject.

As for this :
"It's worth noting that the very first thing satan wanted to do to man was have him disbelieve God's Word and tell him it's not true - Genesis 3:1,4."

No doubt. But a person in the 20th-21st Century can easily suggest that perhaps Satan got to the folks deciding what goes in and what goes out and how things are tranlated from one language to another. Seems to me he would have been targetting them with more verve than your average powerless schmuck in 2010. Yes, God gave us The Word, and the Word was made flesh through Jesus Christ. He also gave us as gifts, a brain, the ability to reason, and most of all he gave us something far too underutilized.

The gift of compassion. I like the list of seven, they go hand in hand with the seven virtues which can aid in overcoming the seven deadly sins. Those gifts, wisdom, understanding, counsel, fortitude, knowledge, piety and awe.


Oddly enough, in Buddhism, there are precepts that refer to similar human traits - both the destructive (sin) and productive (virtue).

They're not one for one, but the same spirit is in mind. :D

[poptart]

One quick point about salvation --

Most people think of salvation in terms of eternal life.

"Oh, I will have salvation when I die ... and I will go to heaven."

But that is just part of it.

Philippians 3:20 - believers are citizens of heaven ... right NOW
John 5:24 - believers have passed from death to life (all died from Adam), have no condemnation, and have eternal life

The blessings of the believer are RIGHT NOW, as we walk on earth.

Salvation is freedom from bondage to satan ... now ... and forever into eternity.


I will post on the Matthew 25 ... parable ... but want to make a note first.

At the very end of the parable, the King declares that the righteous go to eternal life.

v. 46 - And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


In Matthew 5:20, Jesus said this about (the kingdom of God) salvation --

Matthew 5:20
For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

The Scribes and Pharisees were very very VERY pious and righteous.
Living correctly, following the law, behaving well.
They were outstanding people of that time.

Can we live more upright or righteously than them?

I'm Marcus and I'll say no.

[Tom In VA]

Well I know I can't, but I'm duty bound to try.

[poptart]

The way we become instantly and forever righteous in God's sight is by placing faith in the Christ, who is the seed of the woman in Genesis 3:15.

Genesis 15:6
And he (Abraham) believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Romans 4:3
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Romans 3:23
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Romans 4:8
Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

1 Corinthians 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.


Our righteousness exceeds that of the Scribes and Pharisees by placing faith in the truth that Jesus is the Christ.

[Tom In VA]

Right. What did Christ do ?

His job.

What are we to do ?

Our job.

What is our job ?

See Matthew 25.

[poptart]

Our "job" is to place our faith in Christ, who overcame satan, the opponent we can never overcome.

We surely died.

We live by Christ.

Matthew 25 is a parable.


I'll post on it next.

[Johnny Bold]

Trying
We may see things differently, but this is the same
We love and praise G-d - We praise and love Christ
And joyful is the spiritual surety which comes with trying to be right with our Heavenly Father.
To attempt to accomplish the greatest of that which mankind can attain, is most invigorating...
-and eternally so at that.

It doesn't get any better then trying to be right with G-d.

[poptart]

Why do you even bother? He's just going to list Bible scriptures for you, then bail.

If I post Scripture, that means you should read it.

There's Life in those Words.

[Felix]

I had forgotten the Catholic Church's ruling on these things. Come to find out, they weren't that far off from Poptart's assertion initially. Then it evolved into "limbo".

uh, you do know the catholics have done away with "limbo" don't you?

[Tom In VA]

I had forgotten the Catholic Church's ruling on these things. Come to find out, they weren't that far off from Poptart's assertion initially. Then it evolved into "limbo".

uh, you do know the catholics have done away with "limbo" don't you?

You must have stopped reading there.

[Diogenes]

I had forgotten the Catholic Church's ruling on these things. Come to find out, they weren't that far off from Poptart's assertion initially. Then it evolved into "limbo".

uh, you do know the catholics have done away with "limbo" don't you?

You must have stopped reading there.

Actually it was never official Catholic doctrine.

[Felix]

I had forgotten the Catholic Church's ruling on these things. Come to find out, they weren't that far off from Poptart's assertion initially. Then it evolved into "limbo".

uh, you do know the catholics have done away with "limbo" don't you?

You must have stopped reading there.

no, I saw that you noted it went away....but the whole concept of the "Vicar of Christ on Earth" simply saying that this place no longer exists is just too fucking weird, primarily because the "word of god" seems to be evolving....how can the word of god evolve

and it's not just catholics, it's a disturbing characteristic of every religious belief (denominational or not)

Actually it was never official Catholic doctrine.

you're an idiot