Turn Iran into a parking lot?

[Neely8]

These guys are really pushing buttons now. Another quagmire soon to follow Iraq?

Britain: Iran seizes 15 sailors, marines By JIM KRANE, Associated Press Writer
10 minutes ago



DUBAI, United Arab Emirates - Iranian naval vessels on Friday seized 15 British sailors and marines who had boarded a merchant ship in Iraqi waters of the Persian Gulf, British and U.S. officials said. Britain immediately protested the detentions, which come at a time of high tension between the West and Iran.

In London, the British government summoned the Iranian ambassador to the Foreign Office and demanded "the immediate and safe return of our people and equipment." Iran had no immediate comment.

The U.S. Navy, which operates off the Iraqi coast along with British forces, said the British sailors appeared unharmed and that Iran's Revolutionary Guard naval forces were responsible.

Britain's Defense Ministry said the British Navy personnel were "engaged in routine boarding operations of merchant shipping in Iraqi territorial waters," and had completed a ship inspection when they were accosted by the Iranian vessels. The British sailors were assigned to a task force which protects Iraqi oil terminals and maintains security in Iraqi waters under authority of the U.N. Security Council.

"We are urgently pursuing this matter with the Iranian authorities at the highest level," the ministry said.

No one could be immediately reached for comment at either government offices in Iran or at the Iranian Embassy in Baghdad. An Iranian official at the U.N. mission in New York said he was not aware of the report and could not immediately comment.

Iran is in the middle of its New Year holiday when almost all government offices close.

The U.S. Navy said the incident occurred just outside a long-disputed waterway called the Shatt al-Arab dividing Iraq and Iran. It came as the U.N. Security Council debates further sanctions against Iran over its disputed nuclear program, and amid U.S. allegations that Iran is arming Shiite militias in Iraq.

U.S. officials had expressed concern that with so much military hardware concentrated in the Persian Gulf, just such a small incident could spiral out of control and trigger a major armed confrontation.

White House press secretary Tony Snow said the Bush administration was monitoring the situation.

"The British government is demanding the immediate safe return of the people and equipment and we are keeping watch on the situation," Snow said.

The United States, Britain's chief ally, has built up its naval forces in the Gulf in a show of strength directed at Iran. Two American carriers, including the USS John C. Stennis — backed by a strike group with more than 6,500 sailors and Marines and with additional minesweeping ships — arrived in the region in recent months.

The Foreign Office said the Iranian ambassador, Rasoul Movahedian, met with Sir Peter Ricketts, the senior civil servant in the department.

"The meeting was brisk but cordial. Sir Peter demanded the safe return of our personnel and equipment," said a spokesman, speaking on condition of anonymity according to government policy.

Rhetoric between Western nations and Iran has escalated in recent months.

Earlier this week, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei said if Western countries "want to treat us with threats and enforcement of coercion and violence, undoubtedly they must know that the Iranian nation and authorities will use all their capacities to strike enemies that attack."

In February, President Bush said: "The Iranian people are good, honest, decent people and they've got a government that is belligerent, loud, noisy, threatening — a government which is in defiance of the rest of the world and says, 'We want a nuclear weapon.'"

The Britons were in two boats from the frigate H.M.S. Cornwall during a routine smuggling investigation, said the British Defense Ministry.

According to a statement from the U.S. Navy's Fifth Fleet, which is based in Bahrain and operates jointly with the British forces off the coast of Iraq, the British sailors had just finished inspecting the merchant ship about 10:30 a.m. "when they and their two boats were surrounded and escorted by Iranian vessels into Iranian territorial waters."

Cmdr. Kevin Aandahl of the Fifth Fleet said the British crew members were intercepted by several larger patrol boats operated by Iranian sailors belonging to the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps Navy, a radical force that operates separately from the country's regular navy.

The Iranian boats normally carry bow-mounted machine guns, while the British boarding party carried only sidearms, Aandahl said. No shots were fired and there appeared to be no physical harm done to any personnel involved or their vessels, Aandahl said.

The seizure of the British vessels, a pair of rigid inflatable boats known as RIBs, took place in long-disputed waters just outside of the mouth of the Shatt al-Arab waterway that divides Iraq from Iran, Aandahl said. A 1975 treaty gave the waters to Iraq and U.S. and British ships commonly operate there, but Aandahl said Iran disputes Iraq's jurisdiction over the waters.

"It's been in dispute for some time," Aandahl said. "We've been operating there for a couple of years and we know the lines very well. This was a compliant boarding, this happens routinely. What's out of the ordinary is the Iranian response."

Aandahl said the U.S.-led task force has touchier relations with the Revolutionary Guard, which often ignores normal maritime operating traditions, than with the regular Iranian navy.

A fisherman who said he was with a group of Iraqis from the southern city of Basra fishing in Iraqi waters in the northern area of the Gulf said he saw the Iranian seizure. The fisherman, reached by telephone by an AP reporter in Basra, declined to be identified because of security concerns.

"Two boats, each with a crew of six to eight multinational forces, were searching Iraqi and Iranian boats Friday morning in Ras al-Beesha area in the northern entrance of the Arab Gulf, but big Iranian boats came and took the two boats with their crews to the Iranian waters."

The Cornwall's commander, Commodore Nick Lambert, said the frigate lost communication with the boarding party, but a helicopter crew saw the Iranian vessels approach.

"I've got 15 sailors and marines who have been arrested by the Iranians and my immediate concern is their safety," Lambert told British Broadcasting Corp. television.

In June 2004, six British marines and two sailors were seized by Iran in the Shatt al-Arab. They were presented blindfolded on Iranian television and admitted entering Iranian waters illegally, then released unharmed after three days.

Vali Nasr, a senior fellow for Middle East Studies at the Council on Foreign Relations, suggested that the latest detentions may be Iranian retaliation for the arrest of five Iranians in a U.S.-led raid in northern Iraq in January. The U.S. said the five included a Revolutionary Guards general.

"I think Iran sees this as retaliation for the arrest of their own personnel. They have repeatedly said that they want their personnel released," Nasr said. "So they are either signalling that they can do the same thing or they are trying to bring attention to it."

[IndyGunClown]

When are you no ball fucks who act tough on the internet going to discuss shit about our country.

Neely if you love Iraq and Britain so much, please by all means FUCKING MOVE THERE!

[PSUFAN]

In case you haven't noticed, we've just gone through a round of the "glass parking lot" talk.

The only way to avoid the quagmire of which you speak - if not broader war among some bigger participants - is to go about this with a honest, intelligent, diplomatic effort.

If we fight Iran, best case scenario is that the cold war resumes.

IMO, there are only so many foolish military imbroglios that we can afford to blunder our way into - and that number currently is zero (0).

You can thank Bush and Rumsfeld for that. Yes, I blame Bush.

[4 king guy]

Can't We All Just... Get ALONG?????

[Tom In VA]

The only way to avoid the quagmire of which you speak - if not broader war among some bigger participants - is to go about this with a honest, intelligent, diplomatic effort.

Are you suggesting that hasn't been tried ?


I'm aware that these problems have existed waaaaaaaaaay before 2001. While your kool-aid might be less better, I think mine is more authentic.

[PSUFAN]

I'm suggesting that the U.S. lead up to the Iraq War could have been better in the following areas:

-honesty
-intelligence
-diplomacy

Do you have some disagreement with that? If so, you're among the very few on Earth that do.

[Tom In VA]

I'm suggesting that the U.S. lead up to the Iraq War could have been better in the following areas:

-honesty
-intelligence
-diplomacy

Do you have some disagreement with that? If so, you're among the very few on Earth that do.

Honesty, intelligence and diplomacy don't always work when you're dealing with a liar. I love my fellow countrymen. Giving a known Iraqi despot the benefit of the doubt over an American, simply because he's

1) A Republican
2) A Rich Boy's Son
3) Unable to speak in public


Hindsight doesn't count and the lead up to the Iraq war lasted ......


Since the original Iraq war ended.



Care to dispute that ? If so, let's go to the palaver room.


The majority is not always correct.

[BSmack]

Hindsight doesn't count and the lead up to the Iraq war lasted ......

I told you back in 03 that the Iraq war would be a Grade A clusterfuck.

You're welcome.

[IndyGunClown]

[quote="Tom In VA"] I love my fellow countrymen. [/quote]

Then why the fuck do you allow billions of your tax dollars spent on Iraqis? If you like them so much, move your ass to Iraq and help their economy, otherwise get the fuck out of my country pussy.

[Cuda]

I'm suggesting that the U.S. lead up to the Iraq War could have been better in the following areas:

-honesty
-intelligence
-diplomacy

Do you have some disagreement with that? If so, you're among the very few on Earth that do.

I could have fucking sworn that article said the Iranians siezed a bunch of Limeys.

Maybe they just made a horrible series of spelling errors.

This is Tony Blair's problem to handle, not ours.

[Tom In VA]

Hindsight doesn't count and the lead up to the Iraq war lasted ......

I told you back in 03 that the Iraq war would be a Grade A clusterfuck.

You're welcome.

And I told you that the left wing in this country would do anything and everything they could do to subvert the war effort.


And they have.

[Tom In VA]

I love my fellow countrymen.

Then why the fuck do you allow billions of your tax dollars spent on Iraqis? If you like them so much, move your ass to Iraq and help their economy, otherwise get the fuck out of my pussy.

Cunt

[Cicero]

Hindsight doesn't count and the lead up to the Iraq war lasted ......

I told you back in 03 that the Iraq war would be a Grade A clusterfuck.

You're welcome.

And I told you that the left wing in this country would do anything and everything they could do to subvert the war effort.


And they have.

RACK

PSU, you want to go about this diplomatically? They are incapable of rational thought. There is no middle ground w/ these people. It's either completely their way, or nothing.

[PSUFAN]

Care to dispute that ?

Yes - to the extent that you've failed to understand my post, that is.

The three points I've mentioned are in regard to where the US failed, and as such, it means little whether we're talking about Iraq or Iran or Nam or Grenada.

To wit, the US failed internally in the following areas:

Honesty: there were elements of the Bush Administration who sculpted the facts in order to achieve their ends.

Intelligence: no one is clinging to the idea that our intelligence was good leading up to Iraq. We were wrong in many of our assumptions, and that has cost us immeasurably (immeasurable because I cannot place the value on the lives of our soldiers - 3,000 and counting - who have given up their lives).

Diplomacy: most of the world recognized that we were leaping into a morass. Most of the world would have preferred us to explore all diplomatic channels. We didn't do anything of the sort.

Giving a known Iraqi despot the benefit of the doubt over an American

You have to be joking. In case you're not, where have I done this? Be specific...extra points for a link.

[PSUFAN]

This is Tony Blair's problem to handle, not ours.

heh heh...

Exactly when did we stop acting as a "Coalition" in the Middle East?

Seriously...we were able to drag Britain into Iraq with us...isn't turnaround fair play?

The tapestries quickly festooned read: Mighty Britain is With Us. Now we're supposed to cower in the corner?

Where's your sense of honor and self-respect, you ASS?

[Cuda]

I never said we wouldn't have the Limey's back, I just said it's their problem to solve, dumbfuck

[Tom In VA]

Honesty: there were elements of the Bush Administration who sculpted the facts in order to achieve their ends.

Intelligence: no one is clinging to the idea that our intelligence was good leading up to Iraq. We were wrong in many of our assumptions, and that has cost us immeasurably (immeasurable because I cannot place the value on the lives of our soldiers - 3,000 and counting - who have given up their lives).

Diplomacy: most of the world recognized that we were leaping into a morass. Most of the world would have preferred us to explore all diplomatic channels. We didn't do anything of the sort.

Giving a known Iraqi despot the benefit of the doubt over an American

You have to be joking. In case you're not, where have I done this? Be specific...extra points for a link.

You're as smart as you think you are. You win.

I'd vote for you in a heartbeat. It would be futile of me to try and dispute what you've just clarified.


To the honorable gentleman of PA, I say "Huzzah".

[Justa Heel]

Hindsight doesn't count and the lead up to the Iraq war lasted ......

I told you back in 03 that the Iraq war would be a Grade A clusterfuck.

You're welcome.

And I told you that the left wing in this country would do anything and everything they could do to subvert the war effort.


And they have.

The efforts of newly elected democratic leaders in 2007 to hold back funding and to withdraw troops = "the left wing in this country would do anything and everything they could do to subvert the war effort" (from 2003-2007)?

Yeah, ok Tom. Talk about having an all-purpose fail-safe pussy excuse usable in any possible circumstance.

[LTS TRN 2]

Tom in Va, you are doing requisite Rusp Limpdick duty of assinine denial of reality, mixed with the usual petty bile of childish snippery.

Look, the current unelected cabal ("the Bush administration") has fucked up EVERYTHING they've touched, and will promptly be remanded to the trash heap of history as the Worst Presidency ever. No question.

As for Iran, they have obviously the best friend they could want in Dick Cheney--after all, he attacked and severely weakened Iran's two biggest enemies, the taliban and Iraq, and then installed a pro-Iranian puppet government in Iraq. And his current blustery saber-rattling has only caused the equally blustery Iranian president to enjoy a otherwise unearned popularity at home.

Your "take" on history or current geo-politics is a joke, a shallow--and very thin--spray of idiocy and fetal-positioned gibberish. So, it seems YOU would be a perfect candidate for a Blackwater contracting position...oh yeah, 'cept for the fact that you can't even see your dick, let alone do twenty push-ups. You pathetic slob.

[Tom In VA]

The efforts of newly elected democratic leaders in 2007 to hold back funding and to withdraw troops = "the left wing in this country would do anything and everything they could do to subvert the war effort" (from 2003-2007)?

Well by definition, it is 'not supporting the troops' cunt fart.


Fuck you.

[Tom In VA]

Tom in Va, you are doing requisite Rusp Limpdick duty of assinine denial of reality, mixed with the usual petty bile of childish snippery.

Look, the current unelected cabal ("the Bush administration") has fucked up EVERYTHING they've touched, and will promptly be remanded to the trash heap of history as the Worst Presidency ever. No question.

As for Iran, they have obviously the best friend they could want in Dick Cheney--after all, he attacked and severely weakened Iran's two biggest enemies, the taliban and Iraq, and then installed a pro-Iranian puppet government in Iraq. And his current blustery saber-rattling has only caused the equally blustery Iranian president to enjoy a otherwise unearned popularity at home.

Your "take" on history or current geo-politics is a joke, a shallow--and very thin--spray of idiocy and fetal-positioned gibberish. So, it seems YOU would be a perfect candidate for a Blackwater contracting position...oh yeah, 'cept for the fact that you can't even see your dick, let alone do twenty push-ups. You pathetic slob.

1. Don't listen to Rush Limbaugh

2. Goes back farther than Cheney you myopic curr.

3. Refute my take on history with facts. AND.

4. "'cept for the fact that you can't even see your dick, let alone do twenty push-ups. You pathetic slob." I'll take that bet bitch. What the fuck you think you know about me ?

Can't do twenty push ups ?

[velocet]

See, LTS Condit, THIS is the sort of thread for manic ministry. Good, VERY good. Baby steps.

Hindsight doesn't count and the lead up to the Iraq war lasted ......

I told you back in 03 that the Iraq war would be a Grade A clusterfuck.

You're welcome.

Oh hell no BSmack you know better than that. Clusterfukk of an arguable proportion I won't argue against but grade A belongs to shit like this.





velocet

[OCmike]

Hindsight doesn't count and the lead up to the Iraq war lasted ......

I told you back in 03 that the Iraq war would be a Grade A clusterfuck.

You're welcome.

You also said that Gore and Kerry would win. What's your point?

[Justa Heel]

The efforts of newly elected democratic leaders in 2007 to hold back funding and to withdraw troops = "the left wing in this country would do anything and everything they could do to subvert the war effort" (from 2003-2007)?

Well by definition, it is 'not supporting the troops' cunt fart.

So, again, deciding 4 years into a complete clusterfuck, that was adverstised by Chimp/Cheney as a walk in the park, that the country has had enough, and after being elected by the American public basically voting for the same = "the left wing in this country would do anything and everything they could do to subvert the war effort"?

Again, nice pussy all-purpose cop-out.

[BSmack]

Hindsight doesn't count and the lead up to the Iraq war lasted ......

I told you back in 03 that the Iraq war would be a Grade A clusterfuck.

You're welcome.

And I told you that the left wing in this country would do anything and everything they could do to subvert the war effort.

And they have.

Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.

Göring would be proud of you Tom.

[Justa Heel]

Hindsight doesn't count and the lead up to the Iraq war lasted ......

I told you back in 03 that the Iraq war would be a Grade A clusterfuck.

You're welcome.

You also said that Gore and Kerry would win. What's your point?

He also probably predicted the Steelers to win the SB in 2003.

What's your point?

[Tom In VA]

The efforts of newly elected democratic leaders in 2007 to hold back funding and to withdraw troops = "the left wing in this country would do anything and everything they could do to subvert the war effort" (from 2003-2007)?

Well by definition, it is 'not supporting the troops' cunt fart.

So, again, deciding 4 years into a complete clusterfuck, that was adverstised by Chimp/Cheney as a walk in the park, that the country has had enough, and after being elected by the American public basically voting for the same = "the left wing in this country would do anything and everything they could do to subvert the war effort"?

Again, nice pussy all-purpose cop-out.

Where's the cop out, you menses stain ?

[Justa Heel]

Well by definition, it is 'not supporting the troops' cunt fart.

So, again, deciding 4 years into a complete clusterfuck, that was adverstised by Chimp/Cheney as a walk in the park, that the country has had enough, and after being elected by the American public basically voting for the same = "the left wing in this country would do anything and everything they could do to subvert the war effort"?

Again, nice pussy all-purpose cop-out.

Where's the cop out, you menses stain ?

Well, I might take it back. If you actually think the two propositions I offered are actually equivalent, then it's not a copout and I apologize. Then it just means you're dumber than Cicero.

[Tom In VA]

Well, I might take it back. If you actually think the two propositions I offered are actually equivalent, then it's not a copout and I apologize. Then it just means you're dumber than Cicero.

Feel free to do whatever you choose. As far as I can see one of your proposals suggest I equated the attempts to withholding funds from the war effort as "subverting the war effort" all along. I did not. It was a blatant lie on your part.

I will stand firmly behind this statement .... withholding funds and manpower that the troops in Iraq say they need is .... by definition ... NOT supporting them. You are withholding material and logistical support from them. Please chew on that one and refute it without sucking your thumb and reaching into you diaper and throwing anymore of that Gerber green pea looking shit against the wall.


What was your second proposal, I missed it amongst all your flailing. ?

[BSmack]

I will stand firmly behind this statement .... withholding funds and manpower that the troops in Iraq say they need is .... by definition ... NOT supporting them. You are withholding material and logistical support from them.

The material and logistical support they truly need is not for the mission they are currently serving. Either use our troops for border interdiction, letting the Iraqi government handle it's internal security, or get them the hell out.

[Justa Heel]

Well, I might take it back. If you actually think the two propositions I offered are actually equivalent, then it's not a copout and I apologize. Then it just means you're dumber than Cicero.

Feel free to do whatever you choose. As far as I can see one of your proposals suggest I equated the attempts to withholding funds from the war effort as "subverting the war effort" all along. I did not. It was a blatant lie on your part.

I will stand firmly behind this statement .... withholding funds and manpower that the troops in Iraq say they need is .... by definition ... NOT supporting them. You are withholding material and logistical support from them. Please chew on that one and refute it without sucking your thumb and reaching into you diaper and throwing anymore of that Gerber green pea looking shit against the wall.


What was your second proposal, I missed it amongst all your flailing. ?

Forget it, you're dumber than fucking Cicero.

Attempting to blame Democrats for your failed war is a pathetic copout. End of story.

[PSUFAN]

withholding funds and manpower that the troops in Iraq say they need is .... by definition ... NOT supporting them.

So you've come to your senses on Rumsfeld's approach, then?

Who was it that was firing generals for advocating high troop levels?

Do you forget this exchange?

SPC. THOMAS WILSON: We're digging pieces of rusted scrap metal and compromised ballistic glass that has already been shot up, dropped, busted-- picking the best out of this scrap to put on our vehicles go into combat.

We do not have proper armament vehicles to carry with us North.

DONALD RUMSFELD: As you know, you go to war with the army you have, not the army you might want or wish to have at a later time.

This is all very ironic...tragically so.

[War Wagon]

I told you back in 03 that the Iraq war would be a Grade A clusterfuck.

No, you didn't say "clusterfuck". You said "quagmire".

You also predicted, correctly, that the Sunni's and Shiites would engage in civil war before most of us even knew the difference between a Sunni and a Shiite.

Unwar you being right, ya' commie bastard.

[Tom In VA]

Forget it, you're dumber than fucking Cicero.

Attempting to blame Democrats for your failed war is a pathetic copout. End of story.

Nobody was blaming the Democrats for the obstacles faced in the war. But the truth is, they haven't been as supported as the right side of their mouths would have you believe.

Thanks for staying in character, baby huey. Mommy's almost home with her bottle and change your diaper.


Now be a good boy and go play in traffic.

[Justa Heel]

Forget it, you're dumber than fucking Cicero.

Attempting to blame Democrats for your failed war is a pathetic copout. End of story.

Nobody was blaming the Democrats for the obstacles faced in the war. But the truth is, they haven't been as supported as the right side of their mouths would have you believe.

Pathetic pussy back-pedal copout accepted.

[Tom In VA]

Forget it, you're dumber than fucking Cicero.

Attempting to blame Democrats for your failed war is a pathetic copout. End of story.

Nobody was blaming the Democrats for the obstacles faced in the war. But the truth is, they haven't been as supported as the right side of their mouths would have you believe.

Pathetic pussy back-pedal copout accepted.

Only after you link me to where I said ...

1. The war has failed.
2. Blamed the Democrats for it.


Provide me evidence of those two and then you can have your victory binky (pacifier)

[Tom In VA]

Of none of this purse-swinging has anything to do with Iran's blatant act of war against Britain.

Of course it does. It's all Bush's fault.

[Justa Heel]

Nobody was blaming the Democrats for the obstacles faced in the war. But the truth is, they haven't been as supported as the right side of their mouths would have you believe.

Pathetic pussy back-pedal copout accepted.

Only after you link me to where I said ...

1. The war has failed.
2. Blamed the Democrats for it.


Provide me evidence of those two and then you can have your victory binky (pacifier)

Hindsight doesn't count and the lead up to the Iraq war lasted ......

I told you back in 03 that the Iraq war would be a Grade A clusterfuck.

You're welcome.

And I told you that the left wing in this country would do anything and everything they could do to subvert the war effort.


And they have.

To paraphrase:

BSmack - "The war is a Grade A clusterfuck (i.e. Failure). See, I was right."
TardinVa - "Oh yeah, well it's the libs' fault. I was right, too. Now let me unhinge my jaw so I can stuff another cock into my mouth."

[Tom In VA]

To paraphrase:

BSmack - "The war is a Grade A clusterfuck (i.e. Failure). See, I was right."
TardinVa - "Oh yeah, well it's the libs' fault. I was right, too.

Your "paraphraser" is broke and assumes way too much. Rename it to blatant misinterpreter or even liar and you'll be close.


Looks your nemesis Cicero has more on the ball than you do.

[PSUFAN]

Of none of this purse-swinging has anything to do with Iran's blatant act of war against Britain.

Of course it does. It's all Bush's fault.

A great many restrictions have been placed on our available options in the region as a result of the Bush Administration's ineptitude.

One could make the case that Iran was always a bigger threat to our interests than was Iraq.

Bush I & II have strengthened Iran's hand by weakening Iraq.

Moreover, with the bumbling by Rumsfeld and others, the rest of the world is extremely wary of the U.S. approach in the region.