Can Non-Christians be Moral?

[Diogenes]

The Idea that not being Christian (or Jewish, for that matter) means you are immoral is nowhere expressed in the Bible. Now the Koran on the other hand....

Tell her she got an F for poor logic and embracing a strawman.

[PSUFAN]

The Idea that not being Christian (or Jewish, for that matter) means you are immoral is nowhere expressed in the Bible.

What a stinking pile of horseshit.

Did you read the parts of the Bible where God told the hebrews to rape, pillage, and kill the Midianites?

Maybe you read Exodus and think, wow, no one is getting pestered here for not being among the Faithful.

You might be the only one, though.

Rack this thread - it really shakes the Thumpers out of the wallboards.

[Smackie Chan]

We have no right to impose on God our intuitive sense of what is appropriate.

Why not? "We" created him - we can impose on him what we want.

[BSmack]

We have no right to impose on God our intuitive sense of what is appropriate.

Why not? "We" created him - we can impose on him what we want.

I kind of like Poptart's reasoning. If you see it though to it's logical conclusion, it means the extinction of all organized religion.

[The Whistle Is Screaming]

Did you read the parts of the Bible where God told the hebrews to rape, pillage, and kill the Midianites?

Fuck, I missed that, can you hook a brother up with a link to the rape and pillage parts? TIA

[Dr_Phibes]

Did you read the parts of the Bible where God told the hebrews to rape, pillage, and kill the Midianites?

Fuck, I missed that, can you hook a brother up with a link to the rape and pillage parts? TIA

Moses, who had been instructed by the Lord to punish the Midianites, exclaimed: ‘Why have you kept all the women alive? ... Kill every boy and kill every woman who has had sexual intercourse, but keep alive for yourselves all the girls and all the women who are virgins’ (Numbers 31: 15-18). The Lord evidently approved of Moses’s commandment, for, far from upbraiding him, he gave him detailed instructions on how the loot was to be divided, with a specified portion of the cattle, donkeys, sheep, and virgins going to the Lord himself (Numbers 31: 25-30).

Source: source

[Kierland]

{Numbers 31: 15-18}
{Numbers 31: 25-30}

Here it is from Here.
"Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. 16 "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
and
25 The LORD said to Moses, 26 "You and Eleazar the priest and the family heads of the community are to count all the people and animals that were captured. 27 Divide the spoils between the soldiers who took part in the battle and the rest of the community. 28 From the soldiers who fought in the battle, set apart as tribute for the LORD one out of every five hundred, whether persons, cattle, donkeys, sheep or goats. 29 Take this tribute from their half share and give it to Eleazar the priest as the LORD's part.

[PSUFAN]

Exactly.

[Nacho]

Where exactly did it say rape?

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

~crickets~

[poptart]

I'm busy with trev's cheerskank thread right now, you faggot.

I'll be in L8er.

[poptart]

In understanding the Bible it is absolutely FUNDAMENTAL to view it in terms of God's Covenant.

God created man in his image (spirit -- man is, unlike any other creation, a spiritual being), blessed him, and gave him full dominion over the earth. The original Covenant God had with man was that man had all of that authority and blessing, and that man was free to eat of any 'tree of the garden' except for the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. (Genesis 2:16-18 ), for in the day man ate from that tree he would surely die.

Man was deceived by satan, violated God's Covenant, became bound by satan, and led a forever cursed existence (Genesis 3:16-19 ).

All people, born from Adam's seed, are brought into this inescapable problem. But of course God promised man the way out -- the Christ -- promised immediately after Adam brought man into destruction (Genesis 3:15, Isaiah 7:14, Matthew 16:16, Galatians 4:4, 1 John 3:8 ).

This is the NEW Covenant.

But meanwhile, while waiting for God to fully prepare the way for Christ to arrive, man was dealing with a state of curses and separation from God. The Old Testament is ALL about this.

Very long story short, God gave man the 10 Commandments. Commandment numero uno is -- man shall have no God other than .... GOD.

There is a very good reason this is Commandment # 1. Because man, born with a spirit, longs to fulfill his spiritual hunger. The correct object of worship -- the ONLY object of worship -- is God himself. But man, aligned w/ satan from Adam, is continually deceived, and he is very prone to idol worship. When man turns his attention to something other than God he is in effect worshipping demons, and he suffers terribly. This is, the state of the world today, btw. God's care for man was the reason for Commandment #1.

The very reason for God's interest w/Israel was for paving the way for the savior of the World -- Jesus Christ. All of God's dealings with people and events in the Old Testament was for the sake and preservation of his Covenant -- for the sake of YOU AND I.


Ok .... I'll be brief here now, sorry, but that set up was important .....

I'll only answer the 'question' of God ordering Moses and Co. to rape, pillage, and kill the Midianites.

Rape: No. The women were to be taken captive. Rape was forbidden, and even punishable by death (Deuteronomy 22:25-27). IMMEDIATELY FOLLOWING the command to spare the virgin women , the soldiers were told to 'purify' themselves and their captives - verse 19 of Numbers 31. Rape would have obviously violated this order. The rape idea comes from your own God-hating mind. End of story. The women could end up being wife's of Israelites. No biggie.

Pillage: Yes. So? The people who were pillaged were idolatrous, and living a cursed existence. Not being in acknowledgment of God Almighty leads to ..... verrah bad shit happening (Genesis 3:16-19 - curse).

Kill: Yes. See above. Also MOST notable, that the people who God ordered to be snuffed out had, as recorded earlier in Numbers, conspired to lead the people of Israel into idol worship. A no no. Commandment #1. A MAJOR no no, because of God's Covenant, and the ultimate need for Israel to remain focussed on God, and for God's ultimate plan of world redemption through the one who would come -- Jesus Christ -- to be allowed to transpire.

There are 2 bottom lines.

1. God is God and you are not. You don't like his method of providing YOU with a way out of your destruction?? haha

Get over yourself.


2. Everything that has gone down up until this time has prepared the way for YOU to have the opportunity to free yourself from your fate. So take God's Covenant, through Christ, or you'll continue to be dragged about by satan, until such time as you, yourself, end up raped, pillaged, killed, and eternally separated from God.


RACK God!

[battery chucka' one]

Very well done, Poptart. I couldn't have said it better myself.

My only disagreement (albeit a rather petty one, to be sure) is that the first commantment states to have no gods before God, as opposed to none other than. Of course, if we truly love God with all our heart, I guess that perhaps we would have none other than Him. For man, this is impossible, thus the reason for Christ.

Agreed that bad things happen to cultures that introduce idols into Israel.

[battery chucka' one]

Agreed that bad things happen to cultures that introduce idols into Israel.

Link?

It's all in that Bible you don't agree with.

[PSUFAN]

Everything that has gone down up until this time has prepared the way for YOU to have the opportunity to free yourself from your fate.

We sure are luckier than those pesky Midianites. Some of them might have been against the whole false god thing - or maybe they didn't have God's email address. They still were "processed" by the Israelites, though...

[battery chucka' one]

Everything that has gone down up until this time has prepared the way for YOU to have the opportunity to free yourself from your fate.

We sure are luckier than those pesky Midianites. Some of them might have been against the whole false god thing - or maybe they didn't have God's email address. They still were "processed" by the Israelites, though...

Or, if they worshipped Molech, they were roasting their own children alive on altars/statues so they died laughing as they passed through the flame.

[PSUFAN]

Maybe a couple of them weren't roasting their own children. Maybe there were counter-culture Midianites that just wanted to be left alone. They were still to be slaughtered, though - and when the Israelites didn't do the killing job efficiently enough, God punished them.

[PSUFAN]

This all goes to show you what a ridiculous thread title we have here.

Thumpers view morality differently than most folks. To them, whatever God would have them do is "moral" - kill, rape, pillage - all peachy-keen.

Most folks feel that Murder is Murder - and that stealing stuff is bad. Thumpers express no interest in such analysis - if God told them to do Satan's work, then off they'd go, happy as clams.

[battery chucka' one]

Maybe a couple of them weren't roasting their own children. Maybe there were counter-culture Midianites that just wanted to be left alone. They were still to be slaughtered, though - and when the Israelites didn't do the killing job efficiently enough, God punished them.

Yeah. You got a problem with it? Tough. Perhaps they should have spoken up that this wasn't right. Perhaps their casual acceptance of the activity was disgusting to God. And yes, they were still to be slaughtered for this. Why is this so hard for you to understand?

[battery chucka' one]

This all goes to show you what a ridiculous thread title we have here.

Thumpers view morality differently than most folks. To them, whatever God would have them do is "moral" - kill, rape, pillage - all peachy-keen.

Most folks feel that Murder is Murder - and that stealing stuff is bad. Thumpers express no interest in such analysis - if God told them to do Satan's work, then off they'd go, happy as clams.

He's God, you half wit. Why can't you fathom that He might know a little more than you as to what is good for His world? I know you don't believe in God, but can't you at least admit that if there is a God, He knows a hell of a lot more than you ever will? Just admit that, please.

[battery chucka' one]

They still were "processed" by the Israelites, though...

Not really. Even using the Bible as an historical source (dubious at best) it is clear that the Israelites did not exterminate the Midianites during the time of Moses. That passage is most likely propaganda after a small battle. The Midianites are still around and still relatively powerful several generations later when Gideon settles up with them.

Israelites were essentially militant wetbacks. Taking what they wanted or needed from less organized tribes of related peoples and justifying their behavior with their religion. It's an ancient and very familiar hypocrisy.

It's true that the Midianites were not completely wiped out with this battle. Probably was a tribe that was destroyed rather than the entire nation. They were around later. Probably a better parallel was was the Shechem incident with Simeon and Levi (though that one WASN'T endorsed by nor serving of God).

[PSUFAN]

can't you at least admit that if there is a God, He knows a hell of a lot more than you ever will? Just admit that, please.

Why should I admit to something entirely conjectural? That makes little sense.

[battery chucka' one]

can't you at least admit that if there is a God, He knows a hell of a lot more than you ever will? Just admit that, please.

Why should I admit to something entirely conjectural? That makes little sense.

And that's why you'll never get it. Yet another reason I'm glad that He's God and you really have no say in the issue.

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

...you really have no say in the issue.

Famous last words before the Kool-Aid is doled out.

Wonderful "religion" you have there.

[battery chucka' one]

...you really have no say in the issue.

Famous last words before the Kool-Aid is doled out.

Wonderful "religion" you have there.

Ah yes. Reference to the Christian life choice as being a cult. Always fun when people who worship in the 'cult of self' drop the Jim Jones references, wouldn't you say, Martyred?

Really, let's be honest, how have you been martyred? To what have you given your life? And, if you really were martyred, shouldn't you be dead right now? Pick a new nic. Or shall we call you hypocrite?

[poptart]

Rape: No. The women were to be taken captive. Rape was forbidden, and even punishable by death (Deuteronomy 22:25-27). IMMEDIATELY FOLLOWING the command to spare the virgin women , the soldiers were told to 'purify' themselves and their captives - verse 19 of Numbers 31. Rape would have obviously violated this order. The rape idea comes from your own God-hating mind. End of story. The women could end up being wife's of Israelites. No biggie.

That's rape, you fucking tard.

Not.

[PSUFAN]

end up being wife's of biggie.

IN!!!

Sin, CTRL-Cuddles

[Dinsdale]

Pick a new nic. Or shall we call you hypocrite?

Do you really go to Giants games and throw D cells?

If so, what would Jesus say about that? Doesn't sound very "christian" to me.

Or shall we call you a hypocrite?


PSSST! For the intellectually-challenged(that's you, BCO), his screen name obviously refers to his schtick on this board... tell me you knew?

[Dinsdale]

Let's not be hasty with our judement here mvscal -- I mean, after all, he could kill his children when they are disobedient, and he could really put the screws to any woman who dares to speak in church.

[Dr_Phibes]

Rape: No. The women were to be taken captive. Rape was forbidden, and even punishable by death (Deuteronomy 22:25-27). IMMEDIATELY FOLLOWING the command to spare the virgin women , the soldiers were told to 'purify' themselves and their captives - verse 19 of Numbers 31. Rape would have obviously violated this order. The rape idea comes from your own God-hating mind. End of story. The women could end up being wife's of Israelites. No biggie.

When the Lord your God gives you victory in battle and you take prisoners, you may see among them a beautiful woman that you like and want to marry ... She is to stay in your home and mourn for her parents for a month; after that, you may marry her. Later, if you no longer want her, you are to let her go free. Since you forced her to have intercourse with you, you cannot treat her as a slave and sell her.

sounds dodgy to me.

[poptart]

What's that taken from, the *NIS Bible, Phibes?




*New International Satan.



For starters, try a real Bible.

Then we can chat.

[Dr_Phibes]

Yeah, fair enough, that was crass. But it's the same cheap device that's being used to slag off the Koran in some circles nowadays.

[Terry in Crapchester]

Really, let's be honest, how have you been martyred? To what have you given your life? And, if you really were martyred, shouldn't you be dead right now? Pick a new nic. Or shall we call you hypocrite?

Capitalize the second r, and his nic makes much more sense.

And you're welcome.

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

Oh look, two numbskulls fighting over the skipping rope at recess.

[battery chucka' one]

Really, let's be honest, how have you been martyred? To what have you given your life? And, if you really were martyred, shouldn't you be dead right now? Pick a new nic. Or shall we call you hypocrite?

Capitalize the second r, and his nic makes much more sense.

And you're welcome.

Makes a little more sense that way. Thanks bro'.

Peace Red....or is it Marty?

[Goober McTuber]

Just call him Perk.

[LTS TRN 2]

Nice. A little Waky Wakin' goin' on. That's good. Sure, the ancient Hebrews as depicted in the "Old Testament" are indeed a vicious barbaric tribe. And the twisted cult that spun off in the wake of the Roman destruction of Jerusalem is similarly depraved. A ludicrous mish-mash of local religions plopped on top of the Mosaic insanity...leading straight to the Dark Ages, etc.

But there's plenty of Great Jews to ACTUALLY redeem the hideous legacy of the Bible. Here's one bouncing around the fatuous hack William F. Buckley like a basketball:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYlMEVTa-PI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9Samvw6Z08

Enjoy!

WW

[Diogenes]

The Idea that not being Christian (or Jewish, for that matter) means you are immoral is nowhere expressed in the Bible.

What a stinking pile of horseshit.

Did you read the parts of the Bible where God told the hebrews to rape, pillage, and kill the Midianites?

Maybe you read Exodus and think, wow, no one is getting pestered here for not being among the Faithful.

And it still doesn't say that the heathen is any more immoral per se than belivers. Only that the Chosen were forbidden to mix with them and absorb their culture (like the medival Church did with pagan culture after Constatine-with predictable results).

[Voice of Reason]

The real question here should be, "Can Christians be moral?"

and the real answer is "no".

Christians don't make moral judgements of their own. They simply behave how they are told. If the next bible revision tells them to rape pre-teen boys, they'll all go out and join NAMBLA.

Hopefully the next bible revision will tell them to off themselves.

[Dinsdale]

Christians don't make moral judgements of their own. They simply behave how they are told. If the next bible revision tells them to rape pre-teen boys, they'll all go out and join NAMBLA.

Horseshit.

Thumpers don't really do what the Bible tells them, unless it's particularly convenient and makes them look cool.


Here, I'll prove it...


Question for the "christians" -- how many of you have considered stoning your kids in the town square after they mouthed off?


Show of hands?


Where's the problem? Is it merely because of us "immoral" non-believers passing these godless laws that are stopping you?


Any of you keep slaves, or was that just another immoral addition of us immoral non-believers to pass laws that undermine the "supreme morality" of christians?