T1B

3-8 v. RPI top 50 is not getting it done unless Marquette wins a couple they shouldn't down the stretch or gets hot in the BE tourney.

i do like to see ND fan do a little conference pimping though.....given the in general principled isolationist stance at the football board. :D

here, locally, i'm pronouncing Colorado's NCAA chances to have ended with a BJ Holmes 3 from 2 steps beyond the arc to force OT. set play out of a TO with 7 secs left, nice little play Turgeon drew up. CU had long since stopped scoring in the half-court and were getting dominated on the glass. no surprise ATM wins in OT.

NIT for the Buffs.

King Crimson wrote:3-8 v. RPI top 50 is not getting it done unless Marquette wins a couple they shouldn't down the stretch or gets hot in the BE tourney.

As I said, 6 of those losses were by 5 points or less. They haven't lost by more than 8 points all season.

There's four remaining regular season games vs. RPI Top 50 programs, so certainly room to improve that record. One problem for Marquette, in addition to their own relatively weak RPI ranking (64), is the fact that they have yet to beat a Top 50 RPI team on the road. If they win three of the four (home vs. St. John's and Cincinnati, road vs. Georgetown and UConn), I think they're in even without a strong showing in the Big East tourney.

i do like to see ND fan do a little conference pimping though.....given the in general principled isolationist stance at the football board. :D

I think I've told this story once before, but . . .

Back in the 80's when I was a college student, the hot debate in college basketball was as to which conference was the best: the ACC, the Big East or the Big Ten. ND was a basketball independent back then, so we didn't really have a dog in that fight. But that fact didn't stop a bunch of sports-crazed guys from debating that topic. And since the Big East was my "hometown" conference, I took the Big East's side in that debate.

So I've had something of an affinity for the Big East as a basketball conference for awhile, even predating ND's membership in the Big East.

On a more immediate note, ND has lost four games this year so far. Two of those came against teams (Kentucky and Syracuse) who are virtual locks for the NCAA tourney. The other two came against Marquette and St. John's. So if those two teams make the tourney, every loss this year for ND (so far, at least) came against a team in the NCAA tourney.

Besides, at least from ND's perspective, football and basketball are radically different sports. To paraphrase Mizzou fan's stance during the last conference realignment, ND fan should advocate what's best for ND. Imho, that means football independence and the Big East for basketball.

Big Ten was never the best basketball conference. only Big Ten fans think the Big Ten is the best. total Big Tenner logic that a .500 Big Ten team ("they knock each other off", all Big Ten fans say this...) is really good but a Big XII team that wins 20+ games with a 35 rpi sucks. it's like i post all the time on the football board, somehow winning at Northwestern or Purdue is a mighty feat but a Kansas team that WINS the Orange Bowl sucks. Kansas WINS a BCS bowl but Mace is posting that they suck. that's Big Ten logic. or Okie State wins 10 games a year for the last half-decade but Jon is posting about how they suck and winning at Purdue is real test. or the Capital One Bowl is a premier game (when Iowa plays in it)....but a 10 win Missouri team that destroys Illinois sucks. it doesn't make any sense. and all the Michigan contingent pile on with the assumption that the Big Ten is great and the only real rival to the SEC....and so the SEC BSH thing gets recycled and Papa Willie will flip a thread about Jessica Beals titties into his self-love yoga about the SEC.

one thing i think SEC BSH has a legit complaint but don't push it.....not like Big Ten teams play tough OOC schedules either. Christ, tOSU has a SOS in the 150's 2 weeks into conference play. we are supposed to think that MAC teams are really good because Big Ten fan thinks so?

as long as i'm ranting here....i love how in years past the ESPN "gurus" will talk about how Team X from the Big East has a tough SOS and deserves a NCAA bid....and you go look and the other teams "on the bubble" have a tougher SOS and better RPI than Team X from the BE....but the ESPN guys will go on and on about Syracuse should make the tournament but Texas ATM (with a stronger SOS and better RPI) doesn't belong. and the Syracuse grads working at ESPN yuck it up and touch each other under the booth and smile.

i don't believe that the rpi or SOS or Sagarin is all that.....but, it's like when Billy Packer would go on his annual rant about how there should be some Leninist Star Chamber of (quoting Billy) "people who really know basketball" to determine the the NCAA field. Him and Bobby Knight choosing up the bracket.

and what Billy meant was teams from the ACC, teams with white people and lots of wicked two-handed bounce passes. maybe they play the tournament without the shot clock so Dean Smith could run the Four Corners.

So JON = the voice of "Big Ten fan?" Come on.

ND's win over South Florida today brought their record to 21-4. As an historical reference, the last time ND was 17 games over .500 was at the end of my senior year, 1986 (that team finished 23-6).

I see a lot of similarities between that team and this team, particularly in being senior-dominated and in being a team without a superstar, but a lot of players capable of picking up the slack on any given night. Fwiw, that team was one-and-done in the NCAA tourney. This season has been a long time coming, and I'm trying to enjoy it as much as possible. But I'm basically a pessimist in nature, and I'm having a hard time shaking the idea that this team might ultimately suffer the same fate.

King Crimson wrote:Big Ten was never the best basketball conference. only Big Ten fans think the Big Ten is the best. total Big Tenner logic that a .500 Big Ten team ("they knock each other off", all Big Ten fans say this...) is really good but a Big XII team that wins 20+ games with a 35 rpi sucks. it's like i post all the time on the football board, somehow winning at Northwestern or Purdue is a mighty feat but a Kansas team that WINS the Orange Bowl sucks. Kansas WINS a BCS bowl but Mace is posting that they suck. that's Big Ten logic. or Okie State wins 10 games a year for the last half-decade but Jon is posting about how they suck and winning at Purdue is real test. or the Capital One Bowl is a premier game (when Iowa plays in it)....but a 10 win Missouri team that destroys Illinois sucks. it doesn't make any sense. and all the Michigan contingent pile on with the assumption that the Big Ten is great and the only real rival to the SEC....and so the SEC BSH thing gets recycled and Papa Willie will flip a thread about Jessica Beals titties into his self-love yoga about the SEC.

one thing i think SEC BSH has a legit complaint but don't push it.....not like Big Ten teams play tough OOC schedules either. Christ, tOSU has a SOS in the 150's 2 weeks into conference play. we are supposed to think that MAC teams are really good because Big Ten fan thinks so?

You're either drunk, bitter or both.

King Crimson wrote:Kansas WINS a BCS bowl but Mace is posting that they suck.

Are you saying that Kansas hasn't traditionally sucked? Or that the Big 12 North hasn't been traditionally weak, especially when compared to the South? I don't think I jumped in here after Kansas won the Orange Bowl to claim that they sucked, did I? I do remember saying the the North sucked and that you corrected me by naming off the good teams to come out of the North since the Big 12's inception, and I'll admit that I overstated my position at that time. But feel free to have selective memory and take quotes out of context if you want to appear to be as stupid as SunCoastSooner. Must be an OU thing.

And since I'm a Big 10 homer, I'll remind you that a 7-5 Iowa team beat 10-2 Missouri in the Insight Bowl this past season. Draw your own conclusions.

Mace wrote: And since I'm a Big 10 homer, I'll remind you that a 7-5 Iowa team beat 10-2 Missouri in the Insight Bowl this past season. Draw your own conclusions.

Was that really necessary? :cry:

You know quite well that Mizzou had that game well in hand until that inexplicable, unforgivable Pic 6.

As for hoops and the eternal conference dick measuring contest, I'd put the top half of the XII up against the top half of any other conference. In a round robin at a neutral site, I'd say they come out on top.

King Crimson wrote:Something moronic and then a bunch of football crap to make a basketball point.

I'd welcome you posting anything resembling a case against the Big 10 having NEVER been the best basketball conference.

War Wagon wrote:As for hoops and the eternal conference dick measuring contest, I'd put the top half of the XII up against the top half of any other conference. In a round robin at a neutral site, I'd say they come out on top.

I'd say the top 3 or 4 of the 12 is as good or better than any other conference. But after Mizzou/ATM there's a bit of a dropoff, imo.

War Wagon wrote:As for hoops and the eternal conference dick measuring contest, I'd put the top half of the XII up against the top half of any other conference. In a round robin at a neutral site, I'd say they come out on top.

Not that rankings are the be-all and end-all, but you do realize that 7 of the 16 Big East teams are ranked in the Top 25, don't you? And an eighth team (West Virginia) is sitting right outside the Top 25?

In your hypothetical neutral-site matchup, I'll take any six of those eight Big East teams against the top six from the Big XII, and be willing to bet that the Big East wins at least 3-4 of those games, depending on how the conferences were paired.

Terry in Crapchester wrote:ND's win over South Florida today brought their record to 21-4.

That was more of an ass kicking than anything else.

We packed it in after we blew the Marquette game.

Terry in Crapchester wrote:

War Wagon wrote:As for hoops and the eternal conference dick measuring contest, I'd put the top half of the XII up against the top half of any other conference. In a round robin at a neutral site, I'd say they come out on top.

Not that rankings are the be-all and end-all, but you do realize that 7 of the 16 Big East teams are ranked in the Top 25, don't you? And an eighth team (West Virginia) is sitting right outside the Top 25?

In your hypothetical neutral-site matchup, I'll take any six of those eight Big East teams against the top six from the Big XII, and be willing to bet that the Big East wins at least 3-4 of those games, depending on how the conferences were paired.

Maybe a round robin doesn't mean the same thing to you that it does me.

In my scenario, each team would play the other top 6 teams for a total of 36 games. I'll throw my top 6 out there and how I think they'd fare against the top 6 of the Big East at a neutral site.

Texas 5-1
Kansas 5-1
Missouri 4-2 (assuming they don't give a game away like they did to GT)
ATM 3-3
Baylor 3-3
K-State 2-4

Big XII wins 22-14

See how easy that was? :D

I think the top 3 leagues this year are the B10, B12 and BE. So in a hypothetical top 6 round robin here's how I think it would play out.

-Using MY top 6 for each league not standings (matches for B10/B12, using Pitt, ND, Gtown, Lville, Nova, UConn for BE)
-Assuming 100% health for all teams
-Giving every team 1 loss

Big 12 vs Big East-

Texas: 5-1
Kansas: 5-1
Mizzou: 3-3
ATM: 2-4
Baylor: 1-5
K-State: 1-5

Final Tally: 17-19

Big 10 vs Big East-

tO$U: 5-1
Wisconsin: 3-3
Purdue: 3-3
Illinois: 2-4
MSU: 3-3
Minny: 1-5

Final Tally: 17-19

Big 12 vs Big 10-

Texas: 5-1
Kansas: 5-1
Mizzou: 3-3
ATM: 3-3
Baylor: 2-4
K-State: 2-4

Final Tally: 20-16



I think the Big East is tops this year and that showed in the results. I think the Big 10 is better in terms of quality 1 through 6 than the Big 12 but the top 2 in the Big 12 are REALLY good and help the dead weight of Baylor and K-State.

Don't underestimate K-State or Baylor, Shine. Both are capable teams. So is Colorado and it was hard leaving them out of my top 6.

I dunno, really, how the matchups would play out. I've watched very little of the Big 10 and only a bit more of the Big East.

And yes, I know that both UConn and Pitt beat Texas earlier in the season but I doubt they could today or next month when it counts.

We shall see.

If we're going to do a full round-robin, using the same hypos Shine laid out (i.e., top six teams in each conference, every team at full strength, all games on neutral court), here's how I see the Big East faring against the Big XII:

Pitt: 5-1
ND: 4-2
Georgetown: 4-2
UConn: 4-2
Villanova: 3-3
Syracuse: 3-3

That's 23-13 vs. Big XII top 6.

Big East vs. Big 10:

Pitt: 5-1
ND: 5-1
Georgetown: 4-2
UConn: 3-3
Villanova: 3-3
Syracuse: 3-3

Again, 23-13 Big East vs. Big 10

Results could vary downward, I suppose, based on timing of games, amount of travel involved between games, etc.

Goober McTuber wrote:This Saturday would probably be an opportune time for tOSU to drop their first game. Don’t want to be headed into the NCAA tournament unbeaten. Way too much pressure.

Belated BTW.

The Hokies were looking like they were on their way to finally make it to the Tournament. Then they decide to get swept by those UVA fags, making their Saturday game versus #1 Duke a must win. Way to keep your players focused with your shitty street-ball offense Seth!

I think you're discovering the REAL VT, stuck. They were playing with smoke and mirrors.

Goober McTuber wrote:

Goober McTuber wrote:This Saturday would probably be an opportune time for tOSU to drop their first game. Don’t want to be headed into the NCAA tournament unbeaten. Way too much pressure.

Belated BTW.

I thought Purdue was going to be the first team to get OSU, so yeah, props to the Used Car Salesman and his pasty band of fighting floppers. I look forward to their annual 1st or 2nd round exit in the tournament.

MgoBlue-LightSpecial wrote:

Goober McTuber wrote:

Goober McTuber wrote:This Saturday would probably be an opportune time for tOSU to drop their first game. Don’t want to be headed into the NCAA tournament unbeaten. Way too much pressure.

Belated BTW.

I thought Purdue was going to be the first team to get OSU, so yeah, props to the Used Car Salesman and his pasty band of fighting floppers. I look forward to their annual 1st or 2nd round exit in the tournament.

Is your team even going to make the tournament?

All MSU has to do is finish above .500 and they will make the tourney.

Goober McTuber wrote:Is your team even going to make the tournament?

Barring a total collapse down the stretch, yes. Probably somewhere between an 8-12 seed depending how they finish. And will still go further than Wisconsin.

MgoBlue-LightSpecial wrote:

Goober McTuber wrote:Is your team even going to make the tournament?

Barring a total collapse down the stretch, yes. Probably somewhere between an 8-12 seed depending how they finish. And will still go further than Wisconsin.

Doubtful. They won't have a total cllapse but they'll probably lose to both Purdue and Michigan to enter the Big 10 tourney 17-13. Underachieve much?

What a dagger that buzzer-beater was for the Wolverines...could've been a great win to go on the resume but props to Gasser on the clutch shot. :brad:

I don't know if Michigan can sneak in as at large without winning their final two games and perhaps a win or two in the conference tourney. They've had a season full of games where they've hung in but aren't better than top end teams of the conference for an entire 40 minutes. A sweep over Michigan State could get them in or at least eliminate them both. I don't see them both getting in. Michigan could eliminate the Gophers with a win at Williams...they (Minnesota) need to win out to finish 9-9. The Big Ten has 3 very solid teams at the top with a soft, gooey middle...should get a couple teams out of that middle pack of mediocre. I see them getting 2 or 3 out of that group into the tourney. You wonder if the extra spots in the tourney might get them an extra team that wouldn't have gotten in a 64-team field.

Goober McTuber wrote:Underachieve much?

Yes, but don't blame MSU for the pollsters ranking them #2. MSU never enters the dance with an impressive record because they always play a top 5 SOS, and often underachieve in conference play, partly due to the fact Izzo is still tinkering with lineup changes. Toss in the fact you get two key guards booted from your team, and your starting PG is still recovering from an achilles (Lucas just recently became fully healthy), and have two former walk ons getting serious minutes...and, yeah, it's not that hard to imagine underachieving. But, a lot of blame has to be put on the players too. They just did not appear to put in much effort in some of those losses, and played horribly.

But, 14 straight years without so much as being on the bubble, this type of season was going to come around eventually. Look at elite programs like UNC, Kentucky, UCONN...all have had lapses in recent years and missed the tournament entirely. As for MSU, just make the tourney and keep the streak in tact. That's all I ask at this point. But they are starting to play Izzo basketball finally, and depending on their bracket, they could make some noise. I can guarantee whichever 5, 6, 7 seed that draws MSU in the first round isn't going to be too thrilled.

Fuck Greenberg. The Hokies beats #1 Duke to ease off the bubble a bit only to get blown the fuck out by Boston College 3 days later. Stupid sorry suck must really enjoy playing in the NIT.

stuckinia wrote:Fuck Greenberg. The Hokies beats #1 Duke to ease off the bubble a bit only to get blown the fuck out by Boston College 3 days later. Stupid sorry suck must really enjoy playing in the NIT.

Not to worry. Dickie V guaranteed they’re in the NCAAs.

Greenberg has his campaign speech down by now. It is amazing how they are on the bubble every single year. They should squeeze in this time unless there's a bunch of upsets in the conf tourneys.

MgoBlue-LightSpecial wrote:Greenberg has his campaign speech down by now. It is amazing how they are on the bubble every single year. They should squeeze in this time unless there's a bunch of upsets in the conf tourneys.

his Monday presser to complain to anyone who will listen following "Selection Sunday" is a rite of Spring.

MgoBlue-LightSpecial wrote:Greenberg has his campaign speech down by now. It is amazing how they are on the bubble every single year. They should squeeze in this time unless there's a bunch of upsets in the conf tourneys.

One thing that's occurred to me is that I think we're likely to see a very forgiving bubble this year. There just don't seem to me to be a whole lot of potential bubble busters out there. Who is there, really? Utah State, for sure -- they'll get an at-large bid even if they don't win the WAC tourney.

But beyond that? George Mason, maybe -- although I suspect the CAA gets two bids in any event. I suppose you could argue that St. Mary's deserves to be in there as well, although St. Mary's has slipped a bit in recent weeks and might not be a lock any longer if they lose the WCC tourney. Maybe Missouri State, although Wichita State would appear to be on the bubble as well out of the MVC, so that conference could get a second bid. In both C-USA and the Horizon, there are a number of teams with similar resumes, but none of those teams has done anything to stand out from the crowd, and it's definitely a possibility that either or both of those conferences could get an at-large bid or two.

i'd like to congratulate Colorado for an epically bad defense performance last night in Ames. ISU scored at will down the stretch on dribble penetration into the paint....with some timely 3's in the mix. arguably, the biggest basketball game in at least 6 years for CU....after playing their way back on the bubble by beating Texas....give up 58 in the 2nd half to ISU (2-12 in conference)....and lose. unless the bubble is very forgiving or CU makes some noise in KC after getting by a Nebraska team that is a bad matchup for CU....NIT, Buffs.

lately, CU sports really know how to crank up and then deflate fan support. get people excited, wet the bed (the Dan Hawkins story)....is no way to build a program.

Looking forward to the MSU/UM game on Saturday. Too bad it's at AA. Can't remember the last time this game was so pivotal for both teams. Here's what's at stake for Michigan in this game:

-Getting into the Dance
-Possibly knocking MSU out of the Dance
-Sweeping their in-state rival

I'm sure UM will by sky high for this one, but there's more pressure on them to win. Both teams are quite a bit better since they last played, so I'm expecting all out war.

AKA the Big 11 toilet bowl?

Sorry, I'll pass.

Shut up, you front running bitch. I'm sure there will be some shit ass A10 bottom feeder game on for you to enjoy.

MgoBlue-LightSpecial wrote:Shut up, you front running bitch. I'm sure there will be some shit ass A10 bottom feeder game on for you to enjoy.

Yes, one of the perks of having CBS College Sports.

MgoBlue-LightSpecial wrote:Looking forward to the MSU/UM game on Saturday. Too bad it's at AA. Can't remember the last time this game was so pivotal for both teams. Here's what's at stake for Michigan in this game:

-Getting into the Dance
-Possibly knocking MSU out of the Dance
-Sweeping their in-state rival

I'm sure UM will by sky high for this one, but there's more pressure on them to win. Both teams are quite a bit better since they last played, so I'm expecting all out war.

All and all, it's been a very solid year for Michigan hoops and further reason to look forward to what's ahead. I'm not going to look a gift horse in the mouth as far as they beating an overrated MSU team at Breslin because I don't think any conference road win is easy no matter how good the team is. They finished 4-5 on the road in conference...3 of those were against teams not headed to the tournament though. Michigan really lacks that benchmark win that separates them from the pack of mediocre. They beat Clemson and Harvard out of conference...Clemson was on the road. They had close losses (by 7 points or less) with Syracuse, Kansas and the home games with Wisconsin and Ohio State. I think if one of those went their way, I think they don't need to sweat out this game Saturday as much.

State's resume isn't that much better than Michigan but when we're dealing with the last teams getting in...State has those few solid wins Michigan could've used. They beat Washington in Maui and they won their game at home with Wisconsin. Had Michigan done that with the Badgers, I'd pretty much put them on level ground with resumes with the Wolverines getting the edge for winning in Breslin. Losing at home on Saturday would essentially knock Michigan out of being a solid at-large to being a team that would have to run the table in Indy to get in. They've recovered from that 1-7 stretch in late December and January and I think it's now down to Saturday and a win probably should get them in over State while a loss puts them in major jeopardy of being left out.

As for State...if they lose tomorrow, I'd have a hard time putting them in the tournament over Michigan with 2 losses against them or if anything, they're one of the last teams in because they've done just enough. They're guaranteed to at least have a .500 record in conference. A win would give them a 10-8 record plus, it's a road conference game. They're only 2-6 on the road in conference. It's hard to take a team that can't do much away from their gym in conference. State also has a few too many big losses...6 of their 8 conference losses were by 9 points or more and lost by at least 20 points three times. State has had those games where they looked entirely outclassed. Michigan had 3 early conference losses of 14 points or more but since January 27 (the win at Breslin), they've gone 7-3 down the stretch with two narrow losses with Illinois and Wisconsin and a 9 point loss at Columbus where they were at least competitive for most of that game.

I think Michigan wins Saturday with the home crowd smelling blood and they've been a much more competitive and confident teams since the win in East Lansing. I was trying to think of the last time these two have played a bigger game...I could think of one off the top of my head. Michigan would love to get the sweep over State and if they win in style, perhaps knock them out of the field and force Izzo's crew to make a deep run in Indy next week. The Big Ten is looking at possibly 6 teams in with Ohio State, Purdue and Wisconsin as sure things with Illinois, MSU, Michigan and Penn State needing wins to help themselves. I think Minnesota has leaked oil late in the season and Northwestern probably played their way out of the field. If Penn State wins over the weekend and wins a couple games in the conference tourney, maybe they jump past Michigan or Michigan State depending on who wins Saturday. The Lions pretty much can't afford a loss at home against the flounding Gophers. At a minimum, the Big Ten gets 5 teams in if Penn State loses and the Michigan-Michigan State game serving as an unofficial elimination game.