Madison protests

[BSmack]

Cool. But if they thought they had the votes to elect representatives that will heed their demands, they wouldn't be packing the Capitol and encouraging the few senators they presently own to flee the state now, would they?

And if the south thought that had the votes to beat Lincoln, they wouldn't have fired on Fort Sumter. What's your fucking point?

[Tom In VA]

"thugs physically threatening legally-elected state legislators & governor"


Well isn't that what a mob is trying to do ? Intimidate ?

It has been a very peaceful protest, you disingenuous tard. Mob? Really?

Relax dude. I am trying to look at it from the perspective of a police officer, having several in my family I have empathy for them - somewhat.

A mob is a mass of people, they are trying to - at the moment - "peacefully" compel legislators by there sheer presence. The spirit behind that presence is "You have a lot of people upset with you". If it stops there, there is no concern. But they are trying to intimidate.


Lastly, it only takes a "spark" to touch off violence. Just one. I ask you review history a little bit and see how just one tiny episode can quickly get out of control - in a hurry.


When your job is to maintain control, protect the community in general, and try to make it home alive at the end of your shift. It can be stressful, I would imagine.

My people are cops in an area which sees many protests. Including defecating on firemen, peeing on firemen and the like.


Either way, good luck goobs, I hope your state finds a "win win" solution to all this.

[Goober McTuber]

But the wannabe "lords" are people who took positions of little-to-no-benefit to society, whose vision is to ultimately have the half of the people who actually produce something of tangible benefit to society give up over half of what they rightfully earned, to support their half of the population that they've deemed needs to be paid to keep a watchful eye on the other half.

Quit exaggerating. Only 16.6% of our workforce is employed by government (federal, state and local).

[Goober McTuber]

"thugs physically threatening legally-elected state legislators & governor"


Well isn't that what a mob is trying to do ? Intimidate ?

It has been a very peaceful protest, you disingenuous tard. Mob? Really?

Relax dude. I am trying to look at it from the perspective of a police officer, having several in my family I have empathy for them - somewhat.

A mob is a mass of people, they are trying to - at the moment - "peacefully" compel legislators by there sheer presence.

Definition of mob
1: a large or disorderly crowd; especially : one bent on riotous or destructive action

The police have commented about how well-behaved the protest has been. Keep backpedaling, you’re almost there.

[Dinsdale]

And if the south thought that had the votes to beat Lincoln, they wouldn't have fired on Fort Sumter. What's your fucking point?

The obvious point here, is that General Abner Doubleday led a very interesting life.

[Tom In VA]

The police have commented about how well-behaved the protest has been. Keep backpedaling, you’re almost there.

I'm not backpedaling, I am standing tall admitting I made a mistake in using the "term" mob. Seems to me the policeman would like to prevent a mob and would use force if necessary.

My apologies for using the word improperly, sir.

[BSmack]

And if the south thought that had the votes to beat Lincoln, they wouldn't have fired on Fort Sumter. What's your fucking point?

The obvious point here, is that General Abner Doubleday led a very interesting life.

Thanks Dins. A quick glance at Abner's wikipedia entry made me realize that I've driven by his birthplace oh... a few hundred times and never realized it. Next time I'm in Ballston Spa I'll have to remember to peep it out.

[Dinsdale]

Thanks Dins. A quick glance at Abner's wikipedia entry made me realize that I've driven by his birthplace oh... a few hundred times and never realized it. Next time I'm in Ballston Spa I'll have to remember to peep it out.

Didn't know where he was from, and hadn't read the Wiki page. But when you mentioned Wiki, I just had to look, since like all Doubleday biopics, I figured it was rife with bullshit.

Lots of debate as to whether he fired the first Union shot -- many historians doubt this (why would the general be sticking his head over the wall to plink potshots?).

At least they didn't claim he "invented" baseball, since he never claimed to. After the war, he dedicated himself to organizing and standardizing what was, at the time, a regional club sport. With the expansion of rail travel after the war, he had a vision of more inter-regional play, and needed a set of standardized rules, since there were variations from region to region. This was Doubleday's contribution -- dude was arguably the biggest baseball-nut of all time.

Once he had that under control, his next vision involved moving Out West (much bigger undertaking in the 1870's than in the present day), and having a hand in expanding the San Francisco cable car system.


A truly fascinating, accomplished man.

[mvscal]

Lots of debate as to whether he fired the first Union shot -- many historians doubt this (why would the general be sticking his head over the wall to plink potshots?).

The fact that he wasn't a general at the time might have something to do with it. The fort was commanded by Major Anderson so Doubleday would have been a junior officer in command of a battery or section of guns and it would have been well within his job description to sight his guns.

There were only 1,000 officers and 15,000 men in the Regular Army before the war so promotions were very slow. Once the armies of both sides began their rapid expansion anyone with a West Point education became a valuable commodity. Even a dud in private business like Grant was a colonel before he could blink.

Doubleday was a decent general. Steady rather than stellar but you could do a lot worse. He and Meade didn't get along very well and that always ends badly for the junior officer and did for Doubleday.

[Dinsdale]

The fact that he wasn't a general at the time might have something to do with it. The fort was commanded by Major Anderson so Doubleday would have been a junior officer in command of a battery or section of guns and it would have been well within his job description to sight his guns.

Fair enough.

I've read many different accounts of how the shooting started, so it's possible (likely) we'll never really know.

[Goober McTuber]

The fact that he wasn't a general at the time might have something to do with it. The fort was commanded by Major Anderson so Doubleday would have been a junior officer in command of a battery or section of guns and it would have been well within his job description to sight his guns.

Fair enough.

I've read many different accounts of how the shooting started, so it's possible (likely) we'll never really know.

It was probably Wolfman shooting at a random liberal.

[mvscal]

Dumbfuckery and Twitter torpedo someone's career for the 516th time today. What is it with moronic state AAGs and kicking their own asses? I'll at least rack him for going out guns blazing.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 05979.html

INDIANAPOLIS -- An Indiana deputy attorney general "is no longer employed" by the state after Mother Jones magazine reported he tweeted that police should use live ammunition against Wisconsin labor protesters, the attorney general's office said Wednesday.

The magazine reported Wednesday that Jeffrey Cox responded "Use live ammunition" to a Saturday night posting on its Twitter account that said riot police could sweep protesters out of the Wisconsin capitol, where thousands have been protesting a bill that would strip public employees of collective bargaining rights.

Cox also referred to the protesters as "thugs physically threatening legally-elected state legislators & governor" and said "You're damn right I advocate deadly force," according to the magazine. He later told an Indianapolis television station the comments were intended to be satirical.

Meanwhile a US Rep. from Assholechewshits is still employed...then again he's a hypocritical puddle of libtarded colon leakage. You know the type. They're the ones with their cocks in your face and up your ass.

US Representative Michael E. Capuano, who decried violent political rhetoric after last month’s fatal shooting rampage in Tucson, said today he regrets urging union workers at a rally in Boston on Tuesday to “get a little bloody.”

http://www.boston.com/news/local/breaki ... ged_u.html

[LTS TRN 2]

Sure, Avi, ramp up the homo smack--that'll get your Limpdick parrotings across with lots of heft


Meanwhile, in the spirit of the Bonus Army of 1918...let's root out and string up the Koch brothers!

[Goober McTuber]

When Gov. Scott Walker discussed strategies to lay off state employees for political purposes, to coordinate supposedly “independent” political expenditures to aid legislators who support his budget repair bill, and to place agent provocateurs on the streets of Madison in order to disrupt peaceful demonstrations, he engaged in what a former attorney general of Wisconsin says could turn out to be serious ethics, election law and labor violations.

Much of the attention to the “prank” call that the governor took from a blogger who identified himself as billionaire David Koch has focused on the bizarre, at times comic, character of the discussion between a blogger posing as a powerful political player on the right and a governor whose budget repair bill has sparked mass demonstrations in Wisconsin communities and a national outcry. But the state’s former chief law-enforcement officer described the governor’s statements as “deeply troubling” and suggested that they would require inquiry and investigation by watchdog agencies.

“There clearly are potential ethics violations, and there are potential election law violations and there are a lot of what look to me like labor law violations,” said Peg Lautenschlager, a Democrat who served as Wisconsin’s attorney general after serving for many years as a U.S. attorney. “I think that the ethics violations are something the (state) Government Accountability Board should look into because they are considerable. He is on tape talking with someone who he thinks is the funder of an independent political action committee to purchase advertising to benefit Republican legislators who are nervous about taking votes on legislation he sees as critical to his political success.”

Lautenschlager, a former legislator who has known Walker for many years and who has worked with many of the unions involved in the current dispute, says: “One of the things I find most problematic in all of this is the governor’s casual talk about using outside troublemakers to stir up trouble on the streets, and the fact that he only dismissed the idea because it might cause a political problem for him.”

On the tape, Walker is asked about “planting some troublemakers” to incite the crowds at what have been peaceful protests.

“(We) thought about that,” replied the governor, who added: “My only fear would be is if there was a ruckus caused is that that would scare the public into thinking maybe the governor has gotta settle to avoid all these problems.”

“I think there’s a serious issue there,” Lautenschlager explained. “That’s a public safety issue. And I think that is really troublesome: a governor with an obligation to maintain public safety says he’s going to plant people to make trouble. That screams out to me. For a governor even to consider a strategy that could unnecessarily threaten the safety of peaceful demonstrators — which the governor acknowledged he did — is something that simply amazes me.”

Lautenschlager reviewed the tape of the phone call and the transcript at the request of The Capital Times. She noted a pattern of instances where the governor seemed to put his personal political agenda ahead of his duties as the state’s chief executive.

Lautenschlager noted, in particular, the governor’s reference to displaying a photo of former President Ronald Reagan at the dinner where he explained plans for his budget repair bill — which seeks to strip state, county and municipal employees of their collective bargaining rights, restructure state government in a manner that dramatically extends the power of the governor, undermine the BadgerCare and SeniorCare programs, and sell off publicly owned power plants to private firms like Koch Industries.

“He essentially parallels what he’s going to do to organized labor with what Ronald Reagan did to the air traffic controllers,” said Lautenschlager, referencing the former president’s firing of striking controllers in 1981. “By doing that at this time, when the contracts for state employees are still in effect, it looks as if he’s signaling a willingness to commit an unfair labor practice violation by refusing to negotiate.”

Lautenschlager noted a body of labor law that prevents employers from using threats of layoffs as a negotiating tactic with unionized workers.

Regarding another part of the conversation, where the caller posing as David Koch promises to bring the governor to California as a reward when and if the budget repair bill passes, the former attorney general noted the tenor of the conversation.

“Scott: Once you crush these bastards I’ll fly you out to Cali and really show you a good time,” says the caller identified as David Koch.

Walker replies: “All right, that would be outstanding.”

“When an elected official in Wisconsin is offered a trip somewhere to have a good time, and he responds by saying ‘that would be outstanding,' ” said Lautenchlager, “it certainly sounds like something ethics investigators should look into.”

[Dinsdale]

If that's the degree people are willing to tear each other apart over 'who gets the pension', fucking hell :shock:

Saw this while looking for someone's previous stupidity.

Fibs, I can see where a socialist might have a problem understanding the dynamic -- I'll explain...

The public employees have deemed themselves the new Ruling Class.

Non public employees are struggling right now in the current tough economy, some severely -- I see the effects every day, and have people close to me in the process of losing their home (one has had his 17 years). The reason for the foreclosures and everything else, is because the Average Joe is having trouble paying the bills.

Enter the Ruling Class, who gets to vote in their own pay-raises, few of which have their job at-risk, and all of them are firmly entrenched in the middle class, many of them upper-middle-class, who are launching threats, guilt-trips, and every other tactic to convince the people who are at risk of sleeping in their car "you need to give us MORE of your money!" Hell, I know tit-suckers (OK, that's unfair of me -- of my friends, the only public SERVANTS I know are the "productive" kind -- teachers, firefighters, etc... ie "provide something of value") that are in line to retire anywhere from age 48-55, with FAT bennies, while they support a system that requires the Serfs to work until 65-67 to support their life of ease.

Yet they want more, when those paying for them can't afford the level of compensation they're already giving them.

They've become (due to poor union leadership) blind to the fact there isn't any "more" to give.

The United States is quickly descending into class-warfare, and it's public employees who bear the overwhelming majority of the blame... they seem to forget where their money comes from. It started with politician justifying their existence (and reelection bid) by making "everyone more equal," and when that silliness failed, they tried to fix it by taking money from Johnny Q to ensure their wealthy Wall St benefactors stayed wealthy at all costs. And since the Overlords were handing out free money, their "boots-on-the-ground" (public employees) naturally thought they were in line for some "free money," and now the "free money" bug has gone completely apeshit, with everyone seemingly forgetting that none of these economic models have even a prayer if we, as a nation, don't produce something of tangible value, which provides the fuel for the engine.

Clinton's grand vision of us becoming a nation of pencil-pushers, doing nothing but lording over Asian sweatshop workers from behind a desk on another continent... worked pretty well... for about 10 years. But the long-range results were inevitable, we were all just in denial. And now we're paying dearly for that denial...


and the money ran out. But it sure hasn't stopped those who siphon their income off the productivity of others from wanting a very, very large slice of an ever-dwindling pie.


To the public employee unions, I say...

Go fuck yourselves. It's my money, not yours, and I don't understand the mental disease you're suffering from that makes you think you have a claim on my (scant) money. Go PRODUCE something, assholes. That might actually improve the American economy.


Obviously, this doesn't apply to all public tit-suckers -- while I'm opposed to public education (your kids are your problem, not mine -- again, stay out of my wallet, I didn't knock you up), in our current system, at least teachers do something (albeit extremely poorly). We vote on how much money we can afford for police and fire locally, and those people provide a measurable benefit. DOT workers bust their ass to make sure we can get around. Plenty of legit public workers, and I salute those fine folks. The ones who exist to merely justify their existence need to be shot... and we'll take the price of the bullet out of their big fat pension fund that people who don't have pensions are forced to pay for.

[Goober McTuber]

DOT workers bust their ass to make sure we can get around.

In Wisconsin, those people are some of the worst. Bust their ass? Bwahahaha.

[Dinsdale]

DOT workers bust their ass to make sure we can get around.

In Wisconsin, those people are some of the worst. Bust their ass? Bwahahaha.

Yet you're supporting their right to hold The People hostage and demand more money for a job that you believe they perform unsatisfactorily?


Liberalism is indeed a mental disorder.


Our DOT folks do an outstanding job -- and for the jack they're getting, they damned well better. I believe of all state entities, they have the highest percentage of their budget going to actual operations than any other.

[BSmack]

DOT workers bust their ass to make sure we can get around.

In Wisconsin, those people are some of the worst. Bust their ass? Bwahahaha.

Agreed. I worked for NYS DOT for 15 months. Talk about a shit job. It was boring, dangerous and didn't pay for shit. So to make up for it, just about everybody in my group had one or two other jobs. By the time they came in to their state job, all they wanted to do was to be left the hell alone to catch a few winks.

Here's a synopsis of my average summer day at NYS DOT.

7:30AM - 8:30 AM: Que up for the coffee truck, drink 1st cup of coffee and wait for foreman to come out of meeting with engineers to tell you what is going on.
8:30 - 9:30: Fire up truck, leave yard, go to coffee shop. Drink 2nd cup of coffee.
9:30 - 11:15: Drive to job site, set up safety zone start work
11:15AM - 1:00 PM: Decide where to go for lunch, get lunch, eat lunch.
1:00 - 2:30: Finish job, break down safety zone,
2:30-3:30: Drive back to shop, unload truck, fuck around until EXACTLY 3:30PM and then get the fuck out.

That's right, you're talking about AT BEST, 4 hours of actual work in an 8 hour day. Of course some days no work got done at all. In particular, I had one day where we went out to visit 2 retired DOT workers in a state truck and spent the day drinking beer in a makeshift bunker these guys had built behind their barn. On another day we caught some rays at Durnad Eastman Park and watched chicks in bikinis walk around from our truck. Of course, other days we were out paving or plowing all day. But those days were few and far between.

I have no problem with state governments bargaining for more work or even for wage/benefit concessions. I have a huge problem with the state stripping workers of their right to bargain in return.

[LTS TRN 2]

Dins, roll back the hysteria about some new "ruling class'" and try to deal with the simple fact that the Wisconsin unions in question have made the concessions demanded in Walker's cost cutting appeal. He clearly has the agenda of busting the unions, period. It's not about saving money at all. And your weird rant makes no sense at all, as usual. But then, you're shoulder to shoulder with Glenn Beck.

[War Wagon]

roll back the hysteria

sig material.

[War Wagon]

Good article from Jonah Goldberg.

http://www.news-record.com/content/2011 ... ns_must_go

Private-sector unions fight with management over an equitable distribution of profits. Government unions negotiate with friendly politicians over taxpayer money, putting the public interest at odds with union interests, and, as we've seen in states such as California and Wisconsin, exploding the cost of government. California's pension costs soared 2,000 percent in a decade thanks to the unions.

The labor-politician negotiations can't be fair when the unions can put so much money into campaign spending. Victor Gotbaum, a leader in the New York City chapter of AFSCME, summed up the problem in 1975 when he boasted, "We have the ability, in a sense, to elect our own boss."

This is why FDR believed that "the process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service," and why even George Meany, the first head of the AFL-CIO, held that it was "impossible to bargain collectively with the government."

[Terry in Crapchester]

while I'm opposed to public education (your kids are your problem, not mine -- again, stay out of my wallet, I didn't knock you up),

So long, Ducks. It was nice knowing you.

[BSmack]

Private-sector unions fight with management over an equitable distribution of profits. Government unions negotiate with friendly politicians over taxpayer money, putting the public interest at odds with union interests...

Friendly politicians like Scott Walker? Or George W. Bush? Or Ronnie Rayguns?

Get your own take Wags.

[BSmack]

Get your own take Wags.

T1B Liberal Response Tactic #1:

When it is not possible to dispute the merits of a take posted by someone who does not share your liberal bias, attack the origin/authorship of the take.

I fucking DESTROYED his take. It is an utter fallacy to presume that public employee unions only negotiate with politicians who are amenable to their interests. Are you capable of comprehending that?

[mvscal]

I fucking DESTROYED his take. It is an utter fallacy to presume that public employee unions only negotiate with politicians who are amenable to their interests. Are you capable of comprehending that?

The only thing you "destroyed" was your tighty whiteys with that shit filled blast.

[Mace]

I fucking DESTROYED his take. It is an utter fallacy to presume that public employee unions only negotiate with politicians who are amenable to their interests. Are you capable of comprehending that?

The only thing you "destroyed" was your tighty whiteys with that shit filled blast.

Yeah, Reagan and Walker are known for being in the union's back pocket, you dumbass.

[Goober McTuber]

DOT workers bust their ass to make sure we can get around.

In Wisconsin, those people are some of the worst. Bust their ass? Bwahahaha.

Yet you're supporting their right to hold The People hostage and demand more money for a job that you believe they perform unsatisfactorily?


Liberalism is indeed a mental disorder.

First of all, I am not a liberal. Secondly, I don't believe that the DOT contract is part of this debate.

[War Wagon]

Private-sector unions fight with management over an equitable distribution of profits. Government unions negotiate with friendly politicians over taxpayer money, putting the public interest at odds with union interests...

Friendly politicians like Scott Walker? Or George W. Bush? Or Ronnie Rayguns?

Get your own take Wags.

I've read much more than you think.

The fact remains that publically betrothed unions and Dem politicians walk lockstep with each other. They share a symbiotic relationship in that they have both managed to leach off each other and taxpayers for the last 50 years.

Multiple parasites devouring the same organism until nothing is left but bones. Voters woke up and realized this last November when they swept Dem carcasses out of statehouses nationwide. And I told you that was coming a full year ahead of time.

It's time for public unions and the politicians that serve them to scavenge other roadkill.

[mvscal]

Labor unions aren't negotiating with Walker, you shitsmeared dumbfuck. They are negotiating with the piss-stained fucktards who ran away to Illinois....or rather they are issuing orders to said fucktards.

Submoronic assclowns like you are sitting there with your checkbook open, union spurt dripping down your chin and a shiteating grin on your face. I'm honestly amazed that you can muster enough synaptic firepower to function without mechanical life support.

[BSmack]

I've read much more than you think. The fact remains that publically betrothed unions and Dem politicians walk lockstep with each other. They share a symbiotic relationship in that they have both managed to leach off each other and taxpayers for the last 50 years. Multiple parasites devouring the same organism until nothing is left but bones. Voters woke up and realized this last November when they swept Dem carcasses out of statehouses nationwide. And I told you that was coming a full year ahead of time. It's time for public unions and the politicians that serve them to scavenge other roadkill.

You can rail all you want at Democrats and unions. Your take was that unions negotiate EXCLUSIVELY with politicians friendly to their interests. That take is categorically false. Even here in NY, successive Democratic administrations have whacked away at public employee wages and bennies for the past 30 years. The days of NY State retirement benefits being gold plated are long gone. And in states with violently anti-union Republicans in control?

You have been following your current events?

[War Wagon]

Your take was that unions negotiate EXCLUSIVELY with politicians friendly to their interests.

No, i linked an article from Jonah Goldberg and said it was a good one... and it was imo. Did you read the entire article linked?

I don't think the words "negotiate EXCLUSIVELY" were included in the article or in my interpretation thereof.

[BSmack]

Your take was that unions negotiate EXCLUSIVELY with politicians friendly to their interests.

No, i linked an article from Jonah Goldberg and said it was a good one... and it was imo. Did you read the entire article linked?

I don't think the words "negotiate EXCLUSIVELY" were included in the article or in my interpretation thereof.

Goldberg made it pretty clear when he said "Government unions negotiate with friendly politicians" sans qualifiers.

Sorry if you don't like tripping over your own dick.

[War Wagon]

Goldberg made it pretty clear when he said "Government unions negotiate with friendly politicians" sans qualifiers.

What's clear is that you read words into sentences, words that aren't there, to suit your agenda. Not that I'm surprised or the least bit offended. I read Time cover to cover adding words that aren't there.

[Dr_Phibes]

Non public employees are struggling right now in the current tough economy, some severely -- I see the effects every day, and have people close to me in the process of losing their home (one has had his 17 years). The reason for the foreclosures and everything else, is because the Average Joe is having trouble paying the bills.

[...]


and the money ran out. But it sure hasn't stopped those who siphon their income off the productivity of others from wanting a very, very large slice of an ever-dwindling pie.

I agree with a great deal of what you're saying, but whatever your views on public/private - the solutions to your examples above shouldn't be more attacks on labour, it's productive money. Your solution to lack of demand is diminish wages creating more.. lack of demand.
From a 'macro-cosmic' sort of view, when you dis-empower labour, you get low wages and impoverished workers do not constitute a vibrant market. You get persistent wage repression, demand gets fucked, it's a vicious circle - you're actually exacerbating the problem you're trying to solve - whatever your views on public/private.
The amount of non-productive money out there pales teachers wages and pension funds.

Thatcher tried all this, to a degree that's never been attempted in the US and she abandoned the policy.. it doesn't work. John Major just sort of carried it on with a 'let's make the civil service more efficient' campaign. It just created a lot of needless suffering, massive waste of time.

[Dinsdale]

Your solution to lack of demand is diminish wages creating more.. lack of demand.

I'll forgive you for grossly underestimating just how radical I am.

To clarify:

My solution is quite simple, albeit radical...

Moderate isolationism.

We're the US of Fucking A. If we don't have it, we don't need it. We fucking invented the shit you're selling us. It's all about imposing tariffs on the dirt-eaters we brought to the modern era over the last 13 years. Time for China and Co to return the favor, now that we sacrificed ourselves for their betterment.

Of course, any petroleum/energy imports would be tariff free... because we get to make the rules.

But we MADE China -- and now it's time for them to start paying taxes like the rest of us do. For them to profit from us at the rate they do, and not pay The Man like the rest of us is ludicrous.

As it is, the Corrupt Ones have passed rules that essentially create a subsidy for exporting American jobs/prosperity. But it gets better -- the same dickweeds who thought this was great passed the Repatriation Tax, so when a company takes the incentive to export jobs, if they should ever want to actually bring that money back to American soil, they pay a big tax on it.

The fucking lunatics are running the asylum. That whole tax scenario seems more than just a little backasswards to me... I'm quite certain that simple logic dictates the structure should be the exact opposite... but common sense doesn't have a lobby in DC.


We got fucked... and we deserve it. If you voted for an incumbent, I hope you end up sleeping in your car and eating bugs. Who the fuck else do you think is to blame?

[trev]

I think I asked this question earlier in the week. Why do liberals and democrats support and love unions so much? I want Bsmack, and any others poli liberals to answer.

[Tom In VA]

Lady Trev,

Unions exist because most people will do - whatever they can get away with. History supports this. Unions are ideally there to protect the people who get things done to them. I.e. labor.

Democrats support unions because they support anything that has an emotional value and potential for populist appeal. Democrats have also been largely infiltrated with communists and socialists and see unions and union as a means to further their agenda.

[BSmack]

Goldberg made it pretty clear when he said "Government unions negotiate with friendly politicians" sans qualifiers.

What's clear is that you read words into sentences, words that aren't there, to suit your agenda. Not that I'm surprised or the least bit offended. I read Time cover to cover adding words that aren't there.

No, I see words for what they mean. By no means are all politicians, or even all Democrats, predisposed to favor labor unions. Ergo, both you and Goldberg are full of shit.

[smackaholic]

No, I see words for what they mean. By no means are all politicians, or even all Democrats, predisposed to favor labor unions. Ergo, both you and Goldberg are full of shit.

Why do you keep going to the "not ALL" card as a way of contradicting someone's statement.

Of course not ALL of any political group will have the same stand on any issue. What can be said is a substantial majority of dem pols walk lockstep when it comes with dealing with them.

Earlier in this thread you mentioned how NY state workers' pension plans weren't what they were 30 years ago as a way of saying they aren't very good today. Could this be because 30 years ago they were absolutely ridiculous?

Gubmint workers need to get with the program which means 401K plans. These plans actually do have advantages. They give the person the ability to change employers down the road if they want to. They also allow that person to create a bit of wealth for themselves and if they decide to, their heirs. Of course, this is not big gubmint master's interest as a person with their own fukking wealth is less likely to lick their boots.

If an individual wants to trade the possibility of building their own wealth for a steady check, we have these things called annuities which basically are pension plans.

It's all about letting folks, even gubmint hacks do what they want with THEIR money, not others'.

[BSmack]

No, I see words for what they mean. By no means are all politicians, or even all Democrats, predisposed to favor labor unions. Ergo, both you and Goldberg are full of shit.

Why do you keep going to the "not ALL" card as a way of contradicting someone's statement.

When people speak in absolutes (as Goldberg and Wags were) they deserve to get smacked down for doing so.