Pat Tillman

[PSUFAN]

The truth and the facts of what happened that day might not have been known to the people making the announcement and penning the press release.

You still haven't read this. You should do so:

The first Army investigator who looked into the death of former NFL player Pat Tillman in Afghanistan last year found within days that he was killed by his fellow Rangers in an act of gross negligence, but Army officials decided not to inform Tillman's family or the public until weeks after a nationally televised memorial service.

A new Army report on the death shows that top Army officials, including the theater commander, Gen. John Abizaid, were told that Tillman's death was "fratricide" days before the service.

Soldiers on the scene said they were immediately sure Tillman was killed by a barrage of U.S. bullets as he took shelter behind a boulder during a firefight on a canyon road near the Pakistani border, according to nearly 2, 000 pages of interview transcripts and investigative reports obtained by the Washington Post.

The documents also show that officers made erroneous initial reports that Tillman was killed by enemy fire, destroyed critical evidence and initially concealed the truth from his brother, also an Army Ranger, who was near the attack on April 22, 2004, but did not witness it.

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f ... CJN1E1.DTL

[Lizard King]

The first Army investigator who looked into the death of former NFL player Pat Tillman in Afghanistan last year found within days that he was killed by his fellow Rangers in an act of gross negligence, but Army officials decided not to inform Tillman's family or the public until weeks after a nationally televised memorial service.

A new Army report on the death shows that top Army officials, including the theater commander, Gen. John Abizaid, were told that Tillman's death was "fratricide" days before the service.

Soldiers on the scene said they were immediately sure Tillman was killed by a barrage of U.S. bullets as he took shelter behind a boulder during a firefight on a canyon road near the Pakistani border, according to nearly 2, 000 pages of interview transcripts and investigative reports obtained by the Washington Post.

The documents also show that officers made erroneous initial reports that Tillman was killed by enemy fire, destroyed critical evidence and initially concealed the truth from his brother, also an Army Ranger, who was near the attack on April 22, 2004, but did not witness it.

Any questions, Kool-Aid drinkers?

[PSUFAN]

Quite frankly, my intention here is to highlight the fact that until you lead a fire team in a combat situation and understand the full scope of a fire fight and what it takes to coordinate fire, ...... I'll find your conclusions nothing but speculative and uninformed conjecture at best.

Tom, this is a load of shit from you. You still refuse to understand that the issue is not what happened in the field that day - it's about the lie they told about it afterward.

You can twist yourself into knots telling us that we're not worthy to comment on what happened in the field, because we weren't there...but that still doesn't make your argument relevant to this issue.

They knew what happened, and they lied about it.

Now stop posturing and answer the fucking question - what is the justification for that lie?

[Mister Bushice]

How long does it have to go on before it reaches official "Cover up" status, mvs?

[Tom In VA]

The documents also show that officers made erroneous initial reports that Tillman was killed by enemy fire, destroyed critical evidence and initially concealed the truth from his brother, also an Army Ranger, who was near the attack on April 22, 2004, but did not witness it.

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f ... CJN1E1.DTL[/quote]


So these Junior Officers for fear of their own careers lied.

But when did Bush lie. When did the people that penned the press release lie ? If all the "killed by enemy fire...." announcements occurred based on "erroneous initial reports...."

You were there, let me know.



Lizard King,

No Kool Aid, just trying to establish who lied and when. Were you there too ?

[Cuda]

Beat on me some more, please

sin-

[DrDetroit]

No, the BA attempted to use his death as a marketing tool for the war, and failed when they got caught. They even went so far as to destroy his clothing and body armor to hide the real evidence, citing "BioHazard" Talk about a BS reason. Bodybags are filled everyday over there with Biohazard, and they don't destroy those.

Just because the media reports what the president or his representatives say at a press conference does not make them culpable for reporting a lie.

Damn...I can't believe that Bushice would go through this much trouble just to hear himself lie...

[DrDetroit]

Quite frankly, my intention here is to highlight the fact that until you lead a fire team in a combat situation and understand the full scope of a fire fight and what it takes to coordinate fire, ...... I'll find your conclusions nothing but speculative and uninformed conjecture at best.

'Cuz you know wtf that is like, right?

Take your own advice. Whatever emotional stress that is caused by leading a fire team in a combat situation you wouldn't know about in the first place. Hence, whatever your inference here is, at best, speculation, and, at worst, an attempt to rely on something you know nothing about.

[JHawkBCD]

How long does it have to go on before it reaches official "Cover up" status, mvs?

How long does what have to go on?

The first investigation into the incident concluded fratricide. What the fuck kind of "cover up" is that?

He feels slighted because they're ignoring his theory that it was Colonel Mustard in the kitchen with a revolver.

[Cuda]

How long does what have to go on?
.

Till this motherfucker gets up & gallops away

[Tom In VA]

Quite frankly, my intention here is to highlight the fact that until you lead a fire team in a combat situation and understand the full scope of a fire fight and what it takes to coordinate fire, ...... I'll find your conclusions nothing but speculative and uninformed conjecture at best.

'Cuz you know wtf that is like, right?

Take your own advice. Whatever emotional stress that is caused by leading a fire team in a combat situation you wouldn't know about in the first place. Hence, whatever your inference here is, at best, speculation, and, at worst, an attempt to rely on something you know nothing about.

No, nor do I claim to "know what it's like". I'm not the one claiming to know that a group of soldiers were ordered to lie about the circumstances involving the death of Pat Tillman.

The implication I'm making is that there is some information that I do not have. Somebody must have it and have been first hand to witness the moment that Tillman's death was ordered to be lied about for political purposes and gain.

I'm looking for the evidence. I haven't drawn any conclusions as of yet.

Was their a "cover up" by anyone other than the officers on the spot that filed erroneous reports ?

If George Bush, Donald Rumsfeld and the powers that be at Central Command penned or otherwise ordered a LIE be told. I want to know about it, I might share in the outrage. But I'd like more proof than ....

"The documents also show that officers made erroneous initial reports that Tillman was killed by enemy fire, destroyed critical evidence and initially concealed the truth from his brother, also an Army Ranger, who was near the attack on April 22, 2004, but did not witness it. "

What level were these officers ? So far I don't see where political gain is motivating this "LIE".

[Cuda]

Beat on me some more, please

sin-

Oh, I already posted this, didn't I?

Yep, sure did

[Tom In VA]

Stop it Cuda. We need to keep this thread alive until Fester comes in with a "Blood and Guts Burns" reset, to finally culminate into a "Yankee Doodle Doctor" finale.

[elgrandepeehole]

Pat Tillman's dead??

[Cuda]

Hurry up, Fester.

You're slower than old people fucking

[Mister Bushice]

How long does it have to go on before it reaches official "Cover up" status, mvs?

How long does what have to go on?

The first investigation into the incident concluded fratricide. What the fuck kind of "cover up" is that?

It was the official public announcement that he was killed by enemy fire .
The true details of his death were not made known until 29 May 2004, weeks after a televised memorial service in which fans paid tribute to the man hailed as an "American hero".

[Uncle Fester]

mvscal wrote: The first investigation into the incident concluded fratricide. What the fuck kind of "cover up" is that?

Why not ask the troops?

"I mean, it's horrible that Pat was dead. Absolutely horrible. But it hurts even more to know that it was one of our own guys that did it . . .," one soldier told Jones. "We just, we didn't want to get anything, you know, bad said about the regiment or anything like that. That was my guess to what the whole thing was about. We didn't want the world finding out what actually happened."

The first report about Tillman's death within Army channels -- sent at 4:40 p.m. April 22 -- said that Tillman died in a medical treatment facility after his vehicle came under direct and indirect fire, attributing the gunshot wounds he received to "enemy forces." An investigation was immediately launched, and several documents show that the local chain of command was largely convinced it was fratricide from the beginning.

The next day, Tillman's Ranger body armor was burned because it was covered in blood and was considered a "biohazard." His uniform was also burned. Jones noted that this amounted to the destruction of evidence.
Soldiers reported they burned the evidence because "we knew at the time, based on taking the pictures and walking around it it was a fratricide. . . . We knew in our hearts what had happened, and we weren't going to lie about it. So we weren't thinking about proof or anything."

An initial investigation found fratricide just days later. Top commanders within the U.S. Central Command, including Abizaid, were notified by April 29 -- four days before Tillman's memorial service in San Jose, where he was given a posthumous Silver Star Award. Jones concluded that Tillman, who was bravely leading his fire team into battle, was given the award based on what he intended to do.

The family learned about Tillman's fratricide over Memorial Day weekend, several weeks later. Commanders felt they could not hold on to the old version because the Rangers were returning home and "everybody knows the story," the documents show.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 01502.html

And Cuda: If you're bored while the adults are talking you are free to run along and play somewhere else.

[Cuda]

Sigh...

I miss the old pinko-commie, tree-hugging, Hamm's swilling, banjo-pickin' fukken jerkoff Fester

[Tom In VA]

Thanks Fester.


So I conclude from that, the following.

Rather than add insult to injury so to speak, at the time of the memorials and celebrations of Tillman's life or "dash", and sully the moment ... the Army chose to wait to inform the family of the exact nature of his death.

I do not conclude that they were attempting to exploit Tillman's death for political gain. I don't see a grand conspiracy led by Bush at all.

Therefore the "LIE", that existed for a period of 3-4 weeks, is justified in my opinion.



In my mind, now all we need to argue about for another 10 pages is this ....

Should the men responsible for firing on Tillman and his team, be held accountable and brought up on charges ?

[Y2K]

So it was the Bush Administration that ran to the Patriot Card and exploited it?

We got jobbed, that was our exclusive story.
Signed,

The NFL, Arizona Cardinals, Sports Television, Sports Radio, Sports Print Media. and Football Fan.

[Uncle Fester]

Not a "cover-up." Just a delay in notifying the family. Maybe even a misguided hope that no one would ask or care. The army got its showy funeral with medals and heroic speeches.

I do not conclude that they were attempting to exploit Tillman's death for political gain.

Well that's all well and good, but the Tillman's didn't feel the same way. I guess with all the talk about Military honor and dignity they expected to be told the truth about their son's death. They should not have had to wait for some bullshit "investigation" to conclude or sit through a bunch of John Wayne speeches or football game dedications. Seems like Pat Tillman deserved at least that.

[Tom In VA]

Not a "cover-up." Just a delay in notifying the family. Maybe even a misguided hope that no one would ask or care. The army got its showy funeral with medals and heroic speeches.

I do not conclude that they were attempting to exploit Tillman's death for political gain.

Well that's all well and good, but the Tillman's didn't feel the same way. I guess with all the talk about Military honor and dignity they expected to be told the truth about their son's death. They should not have had to wait for some bullshit "investigation" to conclude or sit through a bunch of John Wayne speeches or football game dedications. Seems like Pat Tillman deserved at least that.

The Tillman's have every right in the world to feel the way they choose.

Anger, is a stage, in the grieving process. Perhaps that is what they are enduring right now.

Again, I'd need some more information to draw the conclusion the delay in conveying the facts about their child's demise was anything other than a judgement call that erred on the side of sensitivity to the parents and family of Pat Tillman.

"Feelings" are not the best indicators of reality.

[Uncle Fester]

The way I see it, unless we each conform, unless we obey orders, unless we follow our leaders blindly, there is no possible way we can remain free.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------

wipes cock on drapes.

[Tom In VA]

Oh put a sock in it will ya Frank ?

--- Lt. Col. Henry Blake


UNWAR the suspense for the climactic arrival of "Blood and Guts Burns" and the "Yankee Doodle Doctor".

[rozy]

Yep, RACK 88

[Uncle Fester]

Oh put a sock in it will ya Frank ?

:D

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

M: They love you, Frank.

F: It was their hatred that fooled me.

[elgrandepeehole]

I'm in late. Sorry.

The Washington Post published a two-part story on Pat Tillman last December:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/ar ... 4Dec4.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/ar ... ec5_4.html

The two press releases issued by the Army regarding Tillman are still up:

http://news.soc.mil/releases/04APR/040430-01.htm

http://news.soc.mil/releases/04MAY/040529-01.htm

My 2 cents:

Tillman's death was one of those bullshit things that sometimes happens during war. As much as you try to avoid it, when you send large numbers of heavily armed men into difficult terrain, you are occasionally going to have some of them shooting at people who are on the same team. Shit happens.

It seems pretty clear that Tillman and Serial 1 initially responded from a relatively safe position to engage a group of Taliban guerillas who were in the process of ambushing the Serial 2. That is heroic, as far as I am concerned. It also appears that in the midst of that firefight, members of Serial 2 had no idea that members of Serial 1 were on the hillside, and mistook them for Taliban. That mistake resulted in Tillman getting smoked.

The next thing that is clear is that the decision not to instantly call this an incident of fratricide was made instantly by the people on the ground. Kevin Tillman rolled up a few minutes later, and if it was clear that this was fratricide, he sure as hell didn't know it. The cover up, if there was one, began right there, on the ground, in Afghanastan. Not in Washington D.C.

It is also clear that the politicos seized on Tillman's death, and the patriotism that it engendered in the public. McCain didn't apologize for capitalizing on the death of Tillman. He only wished he'd been notified that there was something coming down the pike. Again, this suggests that the coverup, if there was one, originated from the bottom of the chain of command, and not at the top. The Army was quick to award the Silver Star and run the positive PR into the ground. But there was no attempt to cover it up, and when the procedures were followed, the truth was quickly published. By my count, only 40 days after Tillman's death. That is a fairly quick investigation, as far as I am concerned.

The fact that Tillman was mistakenly killed by his own troops has been known for almost 1 year. The people who are pissing and moaning now are those who hate Bush and his administration and policies. They are pissed because Bush and Co. got about 40 days of positive press from Tillman's death, and they don't want Bush to get 1 second of positive press. That is what they are pissed about.

This without a doubt should have been the last post on this marathon of a thread. No more needs to be said.

RACK!!!!!!!

[Bizzarofelice]

What you don't understand is just how much your life, lifestyle, ability to do what you do, eat what you eat, watch what you watch, wear what you wear, live how you live .... is dependent on OIL.

This fat, bloated culture is only kept alfoat by aggression? The standard-of-living we enjoy is all thanks to us invading foreign territories and establishing our right to cheap resources?

I'm a dirty leftist, HBJ. I know this fact all too well. As a leftist, I'd rather take our aggression out of the equation and pay more for such goods.

I know that the locally produced produce may have a mark-up due to production costs, but the mass produced produce out of Guatemala or California will have not only a price thanks to transportation, but also a taxing effect on our environment. I know the clothes, the plastic wrap and everything else has a price tied to oil.

Bring it on.

Mark up the prices and see what it does to our economy. If we're so industrious, we don't need to rely so much on third world toilets and their resources? The public pees their pants when the price of gasoline keeps in step with inflation. Bring on the culture shift.

The enemy, understands this, the enemy has proven their willingness to destroy this resource for the sole purpose of destroying your life, lifestyle, ability to do what you do, eat what you eat, watch what you watch, wear what you wear, live how you live ........

"The enemy"
Enemy of what? Enemy of cheap oil? That's who we are fighting in Iraq. We aren't fighting terrorism, we are fighting higher oil prices. People are dying for higher oil prices.

If the soldiers, when enlisting or when sent into harm's way are fed a line that tells of patriotism, freedom and their country, and are subsequently told to go die for resources, do you think they are being misled at all? Sure cheaper oil prices affect us all within the country, but is cheaper oil a part of patriotism, freedom and country?

You say I cheapen their efforts, but I believe I can't hold their efforts higher. I feel that their individual lives are more valuable than the standard of living in the United States. Feeding a soldier a line of bullshit as they go off to fight for lower prices, that is a cheapening of not only the work, but the possible devastation of their families

Mix in a solution... howsabout not sending people to die for resources. This is an ideal that may be deemed "naive" but I believe the consequences would be acdeptable.

[Cuda]

HOLD IT!

NEXT ONE MAKES A POST, THE mvscal GETS IT

[Tom In VA]

RACK mvscal. That was much more concise and eloquently put than I'm capable of.


Same with 88.



RACK Fester(M*A*S*H resets) and Cuda for the comic relief.

[Bizzarofelice]

page 10, bitches.

is cheaper oil a part of patriotism, freedom and country?

There isn't a nation or group of people on this planet that isn't, hasn't or will not fight to secure resources...ever. Not one. Nor will there ever be one. You want to know why that is? Because you can't fucking survive on that basis. Wake the fuck up and smell the coffee, jerkoff.

We couldn't survive without invading Iraq? Seemed to be doing okay before the war

Ohhhhhh SNAP

Where's your argument now, son?
Jerkoff. Where's your "self-assured GED" now, son?

WORD!

Now you tell me what these Jihadi assholes and Baathist fucktards are fighting for. What kind of world do they offer? What do they build? What do they create?

I'm worried about americans and american lives. The statement you dropped above is a red herring.

[Eaglebauer]

No, it isn't a red herring. It is what we are fighting against. If your head wasn't stuck so far up your ass, you would recognize that.

Iraq is only one campaign in much larger war. It didn't begin there and isn't going to end there either.

Whose dick will you be sucking this weekend, mvpussy?

[lovebuzz]

that's some claim to message board fame, ya got there - Fagglebauer.

following other posters around, all of whom bring FAR MORE TO THE TABLE THAN YOU possibly could, ya lame fucking troll - inquiring about cocksucking.

that's rich.

trying to pick up pointers ?
resisting the urge to curl up in a fetal position and lament about your lack of partners willing to give ?

fucken douchebag.

[ADAM]

A red pasta sauce rich with aromatic sauted' garlic fresh from my garden is a sure fire way to a romantic evening.............

WAR ADAM saving $250 this evening!

[PSUFAN]

No, it isn't a red herring. It is what we are fighting against. If your head wasn't stuck so far up your ass, you would recognize that.

Iraq is only one campaign in much larger war. It didn't begin there and isn't going to end there either.

Whose dick will you be sucking this weekend, mvpussy?

nope, not up to par