88 Went To Mass Today

[Van]

I am, and I can also guarantee you that I am hardly alone.

I'm just curious, Van. What have you done in the past decade that would count as an honest attempt at finding faith? You told me nearly 10 years ago that you wished you were able to have it, and you're saying the same thing now. Have you actually sought faith since then? If so, how?

Not a whole lot since then, to be honest. I tried to read the book your boyfriend at the time insisted I read, and it angered me so much that I couldn't finish it. Also, Susan briefly went on a religious kick, and she had me go with her to her church; the experience of which truly angered me when I heard the crazy diatribes of the charlatans running the place...and the ridiculous, perfunctory reactions of the sheep in the audience.

Preaching to the choir, a thousand fold. Those people could've been singing that Michael Vick was All Powerful, and they would've been singing it and falling to the floor in spastic convulsions with every bit as much self-serving conviction.

I've also read some of Susan's Bible, along with some of the copious notes she was taking as she attended class and broke down her studies.

The bottom line is that no matter what I see, it turns me off even more to the whole notion.

When I went to the Vatican, I was hoping that maybe I'd feel some sort of epiphany. Being surrounded by believers while standing at the fifty yard line of Lambeau, as it were, I was hoping that maybe I would feel something. As I walked through the magnificent building, I saw old ladies quietly praying; I saw a young man kneeling and crying at an alter; I saw couples standing and paying homage, with wonder in their shining faces; I saw solemn packs of pilgrims paying their respects to the entombed men in the sacred basement....

I read the inscriptions, and I climbed that narrow, winding walkway to the top of the cupola.

My overriding thoughts?

'This is insane. All this granduer, all this money spent...for what? This was money spent that should've gone instead to feeding the poor. It should've gone to building schools and hospitals.

Damn, I wanna get back to that one restaurant by the Spanish Steps. That pizza was good!'

I was blown away by the architecture, and I felt proud of the West for those amazing things they had accomplished, but I mainly felt similar to how I felt when I walked through Versailles. The thought of what was required to envision and actually go through with the building of such a monument to enormous vanity was appalling to me.

On the flip side, I still envied all those believers I saw. As always, my feeling was that it didn't matter whether they were right or wrong in their beliefs; just the fact that they seemed to find so much comfort in their beliefs...such serenity...that was the main thing.

I wasn't angered by what I saw there, the way I was angered by Iaa's book or Susan's church. I was left more with a feeling of melancholy over how fucked up we are as a people, even as I was also impressed by our capacity for overwhelming beauty.

[ppanther]

Thanks for answering, Van. For the record, I read that book that was recommended to you, and it's the only book I think I've ever actually placed in a trash can. I couldn't fathom the thought of being any part of anyone else ever reading it. I couldn't even donate it. I'm out the door right now, but will give more thought to your reply when I get back.

[Goober McTuber]

So what is this book that we are all to avoid?

[Smackie Chan]

I felt proud of the West

I can't wait for the Dodgers to win another WS, too. Or for Lane Kiffin to hoist the BCS trophy.

[Van]

Thanks for answering, Van.

You're Christy. I'd say you've earned a real response.

For the record, I read that book that was recommended to you, and it's the only book I think I've ever actually placed in a trash can.

I didn't throw it out. It's probably still around here somewhere, but I couldn't finish it. I found it to be thoroughly insulting. It was so simpleminded and condescending that it smacked of Rog's self-serving ramblings.

I couldn't fathom the thought of being any part of anyone else ever reading it.

The scary thing is that Iaa isn't the only person to have recommended that book to me. A number of people in Susan's church also recommended it, and even Susan tried to defend it.

Goobs, the book was Conversations With God, by Neale Donald Walsch.

[Van]

I felt proud of the West

I can't wait for the Dodgers to win another WS, too. Or for Lane Kiffin to hoist the BCS trophy.

I'd bet on the former before the latter, and I'm not betting on the former to happen any time soon.

[Goober McTuber]

Goobs, the book was Conversations With God, by Neale Donald Walsch.

The reviews at amazon.com are all over the place.

http://www.amazon.com/Conversations-God ... 0399142789

[Van]

Goobs, my main problem with it was the manner in which he spoke to the reader. Besides being repetitive as hell he spoke with such saccharine condescension, and he was gallingly assumptive. Picture Rog on a methadone bender sanctimoniously preaching to a group of orphaned Bama fans via conference call at 3:00 a.m., and there you go.

[PSUFAN]

the experience of which truly angered me when I heard the crazy diatribes of the charlatans running the place...and the ridiculous, perfunctory reactions of the sheep in the audience.

Rackable.

What does Mass have to do with faith, exactly? What do criminal organizations like the Catholic and Mormon churches have to do with faith, exactly? Faith comes from individuals and the relationships they establish with God, not from earthly, fallible, fallen constructs. Those who must check with an organization on questions of faith are doomed to suffer a breach in truth. Religious organizations have a shit-poor track record - yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

[indyfrisco]

the experience of which truly angered me when I heard the crazy diatribes of the charlatans running the place...and the ridiculous, perfunctory reactions of the sheep in the audience.

Rackable.

What does Mass have to do with faith, exactly? What do criminal organizations like the Catholic and Mormon churches have to do with faith, exactly? Faith comes from individuals and the relationships they establish with God, not from earthly, fallible, fallen constructs. Those who must check with an organization on questions of faith are doomed to suffer a breach in truth. Religious organizations have a shit-poor track record - yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

DINGDINGDING!

As for your take on faith vs. church, I'm the same way. And it just isn't for catholics either. I gre to hate "the church" when I was dating this baptist chick. Went to her church with her and it was nothing but fucking hypocrites all over the place. Same goes for the catholic chrch I grew up in. Same as the catholic church I am a parishoner of now. I quit titheing about 5 years ago. I just can't give a dime to the church anymore. I rarely even attend. Does not change my faith, just my faith in the church.

[Van]

Sam, attempting to "find faith" would be the efforts one might give as a result of the desire to replace the empty, frustrating feeling of unknowing with something more fulfilling: belief.

I don't know that such efforts can truly ever achieve anything. I tend to think that receiving the gift of faith is similar to surviving battle in war; whether or not your number comes up, it has little to do with anything within your control.

[Goober McTuber]

It might not be your cup of tea, Sam, but a lot of people do look for something to believe in. Whether it helps them maintain structure in their life or just gives them some sense of peace, there’s really nothing there to criticize. Total strangers arguing about religion on an internet message board will never get old, apparently.

[Smackie Chan]

I've recommended this book before, and although its subject matter is not specifically about religion, it occupies a central role in the book. I don't necessarily agree with everything the author writes, but the thesis is rather unique and thought-provoking.

[Goober McTuber]

Oh yeah, poptart, now look what your loving god did to bunch of innocent feebs in Iowa:

http://www.theoneboard.com/board/viewto ... 17#p670317

[Van]

Total strangers arguing about religion on an internet message board will never get old, apparently.

Never. It's way more fun than politics and way less frowned upon than porn.

Well, except for trev, apparently.

[Goober McTuber]

Total strangers arguing about religion on an internet message board will never get old, apparently.

Never. It's way more fun than politics and way less frowned upon than porn.

People argue about porn? What's up with that?

[Van]

Smackie, the one thing about his thesis with which I might find fault is the notion that the rise of literacy and left-brain thought led to increased misogyny and subjugation of women. In the face of the misogyny practiced by some of the least literate cultures on our planet, I find problems with that conclusion. Meanwhile, there is much less misogyny prevalent in the most well-educated sectors of nearly any society.

[Van]

Total strangers arguing about religion on an internet message board will never get old, apparently.

Never. It's way more fun than politics and way less frowned upon than porn.

People argue about porn? What's up with that?

Check out any hotties thread, and the ensuing battles over areola-diameter preference and those vicious "butterknife wounds vs meatdrapes" brouhahas.

It can become fairly brutal. I'm even fairly certain the balrog that came to be known as mvscal was formed in the wicked cauldrons of those ancient mines.

[Smackie Chan]

Smackie, the one thing about his thesis with which I might find fault is the notion that the rise of literacy and left-brain thought led to increased misogyny and subjugation of women. In the face of the misogyny practiced by some of the least literate cultures on our planet, I find problems with that conclusion. Meanwhile, there is much less misogyny prevalent in the most well-educated sectors of nearly any society.

Read the book then get back to me. Not saying I disagree with you, but the argument is superficial without taking into account the details Shlain provides. I think posters like you & 88 would find it to be an interesting read. mvscal would rip it a new one.

[Van]

I think poptart's a good guy. He means well. He seems to be sincere. And he wants others to hear what he's saying.

And Ted Kaczyinski was also quite a smart man.



Smackie, I have a lot of reading already on my plate, but when I get the time I'll look you back up to have you jog my memory about that book.

[Van]

Sam, I was just kidding. I've always liked pop. I have little doubt that despite his public dementia he's a really good guy.

I'd even imagine that during his infrequent bouts of lucidity Rog is also of stellar character. I tend to think that despite his ham-handed arguments and utter lack of anything resembling logic or common sense he usually means well.

[Mikey]

the experience of which truly angered me when I heard the crazy diatribes of the charlatans running the place...and the ridiculous, perfunctory reactions of the sheep in the audience.

Rackable.

What does Mass have to do with faith, exactly? What do criminal organizations like the Catholic and Mormon churches have to do with faith, exactly? Faith comes from individuals and the relationships they establish with God, not from earthly, fallible, fallen constructs. Those who must check with an organization on questions of faith are doomed to suffer a breach in truth. Religious organizations have a shit-poor track record - yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

DINGDINGDING!

As for your take on faith vs. church, I'm the same way. And it just isn't for catholics either. I gre to hate "the church" when I was dating this baptist chick. Went to her church with her and it was nothing but fucking hypocrites all over the place. Same goes for the catholic chrch I grew up in. Same as the catholic church I am a parishoner of now. I quit titheing about 5 years ago. I just can't give a dime to the church anymore. I rarely even attend. Does not change my faith, just my faith in the church.

Not sure which Catholic church you've been going to, but it sounds a lot different than ours.

The nice thing about the Catholic mass is that it doesn't change much from place to place or week to week. Different readings get cycled through on a yearly scriptural calendar. Some seasonal changes in the liturgy.

But at least you don't have to sit there and listen to some guy rant for an hour or more about repenting or it's fire and brimstone for your sorry ass. In our church the Pastor gives about a 10 or 15 minute homily, usually interpreting the readings for the week (one old testament, one new and a Gospel reading, usually related somehow), relating the lessons to everyday life and asking us basically to emulate Jesus in our own lives. No speaking in tongues. No exorting us to strike Satan down or any of that shite.

The problem is that it's getting harder and harder to separate the personal experience of the mass from the actions of the Church heirarchy. From their handling of the sex scandals to the current strict conservative orthodoxy of the Vatican. I don't consider these things to be part of the week to week experience of the mass, but I have a hard time justifying giving money over to them when I realize that some if it will be making its way out of the local parish. The Church is not a democracy. The only way to vote is with your feet and I'll admit that I've been close a few times lately to casting a no vote.

[Goober McTuber]

Wow. I am stupid.

Yeah, but you're a good guy.

[Screw_Michigan]

The only thing remotely redeeming about Catholicism is that you're in and out between 50 and 60 minutes.

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

The only thing remotely redeeming about Catholicism is that you're in and out between 50 and 60 minutes.

Damn. Didn't figure those crusty old priests had that kind of stamina.

[PSUFAN]

The problem is that it's getting harder and harder to separate the personal experience of the mass from the actions of the Church heirarchy. From their handling of the sex scandals to the current strict conservative orthodoxy of the Vatican. I don't consider these things to be part of the week to week experience of the mass, but I have a hard time justifying giving money over to them when I realize that some if it will be making its way out of the local parish. The Church is not a democracy. The only way to vote is with your feet and I'll admit that I've been close a few times lately to casting a no vote.

Another rack. In the past few weeks, I think the message is finally starting to take with genuinely moral Catholics (of which there quite a few, imo). The Church is a deplorably corrupt and increasingly criminal organization. If morality actually matters to you, then it's hard to rectify (yes, intentional pun) their actions - much less underwrite them with your financial contributions. Some part of your two bits, Mikey, go towards settling pedo claims, or toward the lodging of criminal pedo priests and those who aid and abet them...is that really something you want to be a part of?

For years, Churchgoers have reacted to these things by plunging their heads in the sand, or lashing out at those who might dare to mention the shortcomings of the Church. Lately, we're seeing some Churchgoers start to wake up from their looong swoon.

[indyfrisco]

Mikey,

I agree Catholic mass is much more structured and robotic than the Baptist services I went to for 5 years. We still have our fair share of bible beaters who are hypocritical asswipes. That will never change. While the percentage at my Catholic church is about 10-15% vs. the 80% at the Baptist church, it still turns me off. So, it's not the preacher telling everyone there they are going to hell I dislike, it's the members who say one thing and do another that is such the turnoff.

And one thing the Catholic church does WAY more than the Baptist church I attended is beg for fucking money. I don't think a 10 day stretch goes by without an envelope in the mail from our priest asking for money for this or that. Hell, they send out the yearly raffle tickets and call you if you don't mail in your stubs with the cash. And these are about $200 of raffle tickets. I'm not about to peddle these off to friends or co-workers, most of which already go to my church anyways.

[Goober McTuber]

So Indy, is it true that Baptists don’t fuck standing up because God might think they’re dancing?

[indyfrisco]

Heh, the Baptist church I went to was Independent Baptist, not Southern Baptist. Southern is the one against dancing. My gal let me fuck her any which way. My favorite was doggie style in the back of my Bronco in the church parking lot.

[Mikey]

The problem is that it's getting harder and harder to separate the personal experience of the mass from the actions of the Church heirarchy. From their handling of the sex scandals to the current strict conservative orthodoxy of the Vatican. I don't consider these things to be part of the week to week experience of the mass, but I have a hard time justifying giving money over to them when I realize that some if it will be making its way out of the local parish. The Church is not a democracy. The only way to vote is with your feet and I'll admit that I've been close a few times lately to casting a no vote.

Another rack. In the past few weeks, I think the message is finally starting to take with genuinely moral Catholics (of which there quite a few, imo). The Church is a deplorably corrupt and increasingly criminal organization. If morality actually matters to you, then it's hard to rectify (yes, intentional pun) their actions - much less underwrite them with your financial contributions. Some part of your two bits, Mikey, go towards settling pedo claims, or toward the lodging of criminal pedo priests and those who aid and abet them...is that really something you want to be a part of?

For years, Churchgoers have reacted to these things by plunging their heads in the sand, or lashing out at those who might dare to mention the shortcomings of the Church. Lately, we're seeing some Churchgoers start to wake up from their looong swoon.

They want to excommunicate anybody who's "pro-choice" (they'd lose about 50% of their paying membership if they actually did that), prohibit any kind of birth control even in countries packed with huge families of starving kids, deny any kind of gay rights and generally look askance at anything to do with sex, and yet they cover up for their own pedophiles. I can't think of a worse hypocrisy.

And now they're going to appoint this guy to be Archbiship and Cardinal in LA next year when Mahony retires. This just may be what pushes me out for good.

Gomez holds both conservative and progressive views
The archbishop is a champion of immigrants yet embraces strict orthodoxy on such matters as abortion and gay marriage.
By Scott Gold and, Jessica Garrison and Louis Sahagun

April 7, 2010

Reporting from San Antonio and Los Angeles

When Archbishop Jose Gomez introduced himself to the faithful Tuesday morning, he described Los Angeles as "the global face of the Catholic Church." He might as well have been talking about himself.

Gomez, 58, who will succeed Cardinal Roger Mahony, is a reflection of the future of American Catholicism. Born in northern Mexico, now an American citizen, he is one of the millions of Latinos who will make up the majority of Catholics in the United States within the next 10 years.

And like many of those Latinos, he is at once a conservative and a progressive: unyielding in his opposition to abortion and gay marriage, passionate in his advocacy for immigrants and the poor, confounding to those who try to wedge him into the traditional right-left political paradigm.

During his six-year tenure atop the San Antonio archdiocese, Gomez emerged as a leading advocate for doctrinal conformity, determined to stave off what he saw as creeping secularism in the church.

He denounced one Catholic university when it invited then-Sen. Hillary Clinton to campus, because she favored abortion rights, and another when it invited a Benedictine nun, because she had advocated the ordination of women. Under his reign, a local Catholic high school ended its relationship with an organization that raised money to fight breast cancer, because the same organization gave grants to Planned Parenthood. After a 17-year-old lay advisory commission created by his predecessor suggested that gay marriage might be a human rights issue under one reading of the church's teachings, Gomez disbanded the commission.

"The doors were closed for collaborative communication," Mary Moreno, one commission member, said in an interview Tuesday. "We just got a letter. And when things are done like that, it kind of leaves a sting."

Yet in Denver, where Gomez served as a bishop, he was the driving force behind the creation of Centro San Juan Diego, both a formation center for lay leaders and a social services center for immigrants. Roughly 30,000 adults visited the center last year to learn English and computer skills and obtain free legal advice to gain citizenship and fight deportation.

Gomez has marched for immigrants' rights and worked to bridge the complex cultural gap between long-established Mexican American communities and newly arrived immigrant communities from elsewhere in Latin America.

He is a leader of a church that, ideologically, "is kind of everywhere depending on what the issue is," said Father David Garcia, the former rector of San Antonio's storied San Fernando Cathedral and a longtime collaborator with Gomez. But Gomez has made it clear that he sees no contradictions. In a homily he delivered a few years ago, he said the Catholic faith should be lived "without excuses" -- which can often mean, he said, "defending the poor and the immigrant and the prisoner on death row."

"He is with the Latino community on all of these issues," said Centro San Juan Diego Executive Director Luis Soto. "He is a great man. He is a great priest. And we are very proud of him. . . . I think you are going to like him very much."

Indeed, many Los Angeles-area Catholics hailed the selection of Gomez.

Art Herrera, 73, who was born and raised in Boyle Heights and is now a Eucharistic minister in his parish, said that because there will be a Latino at the head of the church, "lukewarm Catho- lics are probably going to come back."

Gomez was born in Monterrey, Mexico's third-largest and most affluent city, the fourth of five children of devout Catholic parents. He still visits frequently because his four sisters and many of his 16 nieces and nephews live there.

"He knew from a young age he wanted to be a priest. He was very dedicated and our parents were a good example," said Gomez's sister Maria Eugenia Gomez de Saldivar, 54, in Monterrey. "I don't remember him ever talking about getting a girlfriend. He always knew what he wanted."

He earned degrees in accounting and philosophy from the University of Navarre in Pamplona, Spain, and was ordained a priest there in 1978, under the Prelature of Opus Dei.

Latinos are the fastest-growing segment among the 65 million Catholics in the United States and make up more than two-thirds of the 5 million Catholics in the Los Angeles archdiocese.

"I'm glad to hear that it's a Latino," Herrera said. "I'm very grateful for that."

Others, however, questioned whether Gomez's unwavering orthodoxy would be embraced in Los Angeles.

"Latino Catholics are not monolithic," said Robert Garcia, 32, an openly gay Long Beach city councilman. "The new bishop has to realize we have a very diverse Catholic population in Los Angeles. . . . We have diverse points of view. There's those of us, like myself, who think the Catholic Church needs to take a more progressive position on numerous issues."

Gomez will also face new and thorny issues in Los Angeles that could test the careful balance of his orthodoxy -- namely the issue of organized labor, which is intertwined with immigration in California and which Mahony chose to address forcefully. Mahony was seen as an ardent supporter of worker rights and labor unions -- marching with janitors, standing with carwasheros, ensuring that church properties were built with union labor, declaring that he would ignore proposed laws demanding that undocumented workers be identified to authorities.

"That is what we expect," said Maria Elena Durazo, a Catholic and the secretary-treasurer of the Los Angeles County Federation of Labor. "It is a high bar, but we hope and expect the same kind of relationship. . . . California is a different state from Texas. We do have progressive agendas and we don't always agree with each other, but I think we have a basic agenda of respect and not demonizing."

Finally -- perhaps inevitably in today's Catholic Church -- Gomez's record of confronting the church's clergy abuse scandal will be scrutinized from the start.

In 2007, the Archdiocese of Los Angeles agreed to pay $660 million to more than 500 victims of abuse stretching back six decades -- the largest settlement of its kind. The archdiocese's handling of abuse allegations is also the target of a grand jury investigation. In recent weeks, the scandal has boiled over anew with allegations that Pope Benedict XVI helped cover up abuse cases or shield pedophile priests.

Gomez has also not managed to sidestep the scandal.

In San Antonio, critics have alleged that he failed to address abuse allegations forthrightly and failed to hold accused clergymen accountable for their actions. In one case, a clergyman who was accused of sexually abusing a teen was permitted during Gomez's tenure to live in a parish residence next door to an elementary school and a day-care center, said Barbara Garcia Boehland, the San Antonio chapter director of Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests (SNAP).

SNAP has written several times to Gomez seeking an apology and more direct confrontation of abuse allegations but has heard nothing, Garcia Boehland said. She said her son, Eduardo Ramon III, was violated by a priest as a boy; he committed suicide at age 20.

The selection of Gomez, she said, made her question how determined the Vatican is to root out and end abuse in the church.

"Elevating him is not being tough on people who know," she said. "There is going to be more hiding of priests. Gomez is good at that."

Asked Tuesday about allegations that he protected wayward priests, Gomez said: "That's not true."

All told, it will be a difficult assignment, said Father Daniel G. Groody, a Catholic priest who is director of the Center for Latino Spirituality and Culture at the University of Notre Dame and a longtime Gomez acquaintance. Gomez acknowledged Tuesday that he knows little about Los Angeles and has visited just four or five times.

"I think the Los Angeles archdiocese will present a new set of challenges," Groody said. "But I have every reason to believe that he'll measure up to the task."

[Van]

Mikey, I agree that I'd much rather attend a solemn, dignified Catholic mass before I'd ever choose to subject myself to another Baptist Revival Hootenanny such as I experienced at Susan's church.

Seeing little kids and old ladies mindlessly yet gleefully singing, "...and His power will smite thyne enemies..." over and over, or some such, it was fucking chilling. Practically every song was about the seething desire of their lord to exact powerful retribution against sinners and nonbelievers.

It was little different than Muslim extremism, except that none of these morons were ever going to willingly blow themselves up for their false cause.

[Mikey]

And one thing the Catholic church does WAY more than the Baptist church I attended is beg for fucking money.

We've got a brand new church (opened last July) and a $6 million dollar debt. Do you think they're hitting us up at all?

I don't give much to the building fund though. We left Nevada 10 years ago soon after dumping several thousand $$ into building a church in the fastest growing (at the time) parish in Nevada. They had been meeting in a double-wide with standing room only all Sunday every week. Built a magnificent building that seated 1,500 or so.

Our current parish had an old church, which I thought was just fine. But I guess the priests wanted to have fewer masses each week so a big new church was built. I like it fine but I wasn't going to pay out the ass for a new church, which we didn't really need, just a few years after funding another one.

[Goober McTuber]

God's gonna make note of that, you tight-ass.

[indyfrisco]

I've taken the money the last 5 years that I normally would donate to the church and donated it to our country club where I actually get some use out of it on Sundays. I never submitted my church donations as deductions on my taxes anyways. I always hated how the church kept track of how much money I tithed so I just started donating cash until I quit donating altogether. I was on the church finance committee about 7 years ago and was sickened by the others on the committee how they would look down the list, see who was donating what and spread it like gossip, "Bill Davidson makes 6 figures and only gives $1500 a year to the church. Can you believe that?" No sir, that was it for me on using the envelopes or checks with my name on it.

[Mikey]

God's gonna make note of that, you tight-ass.

Hopefully.

[ppanther]

Van,

Conversations with God (underlining it feels like I'm giving it a little too much respect...ugh) is a ridiculous book that is super appealing to people who want to be Christian but also desperately want to believe they do not sin. A person who buys what that book is selling is basically rejecting Christ's sacrifice. I suppose that's fine and dandy, unless you happen to consider yourself Christian.

It sounds like you're totally discouraged away from the concept of faith in God, and that's a shame. Maybe if you truly wish to find faith, it will find you when you aren't looking for it. Just one more thing: you sometimes make demands of God, like you think you are entitled to force him to appear to you directly. Maybe you're making those demands in jest, but I have a feeling there's a little genuine feeling behind them. I'd like you to know that if God were so weak that you, a mere human, could order him around... I'd probably think twice about worshiping him.

:)

Sam,

Calm down. Van and I have been having this discussion in bits and pieces over the past decade. He's told me he's desperately wished he could find faith. That's why I asked him if he'd truly sought it. No need for you to get riled up about it.

[Goober McTuber]

Van and I have been having this discussion in bits and pieces over the past decade. He's told me he's desperately wished he could find faith.

Glad I could help.

[ppanther]

Sam,

Calm down. Van and I have been having this discussion in bits and pieces over the past decade. He's told me he's desperately wished he could find faith. That's why I asked him if he'd truly sought it. No need for you to get riled up about it.

Riled? Me riled? Where was I riled?

Goddammit! Show me where I was riled?!?!?!?!

:D

[Goober McTuber]

Sam, listen to Jethro Tull's "Wind Up". Or just google the lyrics.

Also "My God" and "Hymm 43" from the same album.

[Van]

Van and I have been having this discussion in bits and pieces over the past decade. He's told me he's desperately wished he could find faith.

Glad I could help.

Bam! I have seen the light!