88 Went To Mass Today

[M Club]

Joseph John Campbell (March 26, 1904 – October 30, 1987) was an American mythologist, writer and lecturer, best known for his work in comparative mythology and comparative religion.

Why would you put your faith and soul, your complete reasoning on what he said??????????

Jesus walked on the earth, died for you, and for all of us.........but you would rather put your complete arguments/intellect on Campbell?????

WHy?????

because we have assurances campbell actually lived. you have your...faith?

[poptart]

No, they off'd themselves for something they BELIEVED to be true; same as any other religious fanatic. That is, assuming it all happened the way you believe it did.

Van, the apostles departed Jesus and fled when He was captured, tried, and crucified.

They anticipated no resurrection, to say the least.
They hid and dispersed.

Then something happened to transform their view COMPLETELY.

If Jesus did not resurrect, they knew it.
There is no way to rationally conclude otherwise.

They became transformed from hiding cowards who gave up on Jesus into bold men who knew they had THE important message to tell the world - such that they would sacrifice their lives for it.

They KNEW the resurrection was fact.


There is no way to dismiss the behavior of the apostles.

My opinion.

[Goober McTuber]

That myth has been exposed. They're actually Mossad and former Mossad agents who have been given a choice.

1. Suicide bombing.
2. The tapes of their homo erotic "hazing" ceremony will be released.

That is an astute, well thought out, and very plausible explanation, Tom. Thank you.

[poptart]

I'm not going to read all of that, 88.

Is it your belief that there was no Jesus?

[poptart]

Ignorance is bliss, my friend. Suit yourself.

Because I don't want to read a very lengthy link you post you choose to label me as ignorant?

What makes you think that I haven't researched the subject at great length?


I'm just interested in YOUR takes, not those put forth in a lengthy link.

So, the long answer to your question is the honest one. I do not know if Jesus lived.

Ok, just curious where you stood on that.

I would submit for you to consider at this point that it would perhaps be MORE of a miracle for a group of "nothing" men, in one generation, to create such a charismatic and appealing personality as Jesus, and then have a huge movement of spiritual growth take place from that fake personality, so as to eventually move to the ends of the earth, than it would be for the "miracle" of a real Jesus person to have actually lived and performed all that He did.

I frankly find the "Jesus didn't really live" take to be one of the more strange takes that I've heart.

Isn't it the least bit troubling to you that his resurrection supposedly occurred without any witnesses?

You mean, witnesses standing there as he came out from the tomb?

It's not troubling to me.

There is a throng of people who gave testimony as to His resurrection.

And we have the behavior of the apostles, which I noted, and which has been waved off by some here.

I regard the record of the Bible very highly.

Others wil make a choice not to.


So it goes.

[Moving Sale]

Granted I only read 1/2 of this horridly ill-informed thread but if nobody has dropped the myth-bomb I'd like to do so now.

Yeah back on page two, little fella. "Good job", sport.

I meant by someone who has a better understanding of the subject than a 4th grader. Someone who has been right about something in say the past 5 years. Someone who's putrid mind is not rotting from the inside out. Someone with enough understanding of life to not be a vile racist fucktard. For these and other reasons I must have missed your vapid rant. Now go fuckyourself you stupid black cock swilling douche.

[Tom In VA]

That myth has been exposed. They're actually Mossad and former Mossad agents who have been given a choice.

1. Suicide bombing.
2. The tapes of their homo erotic "hazing" ceremony will be released.

That is an astute, well thought out, and very plausible explanation, Tom. Thank you.

You ole' codger you. I was kidding silly. The knock on the head comment actually does hold some efficacy, brain injuries have been known to cause some major "shifts" in personality, attitude, and even awareness.

Many spiritual practices throughout the ages have involved altering the chemistry of the brain in one form or another for a period of time in order to induce "visions".

[poptart]

We're even, Scott.

You think I'm a delusional nutjob and I am saddened that you don't recognize Christ ... yet.

And I sure have no feeling of superiority based on what I believe our final destinations to be.

I played no part in what Christ has done.

If I was under the impression that I had something to do with it, yeah, I could feel superior.

I didn't and I ain't, trust me.

Good bet you are a "better" fella than I am.

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

Is it ever 9:07 in heaven?

[poptart]

Ask Mace.


:wink:

[Mikey]

As far as Jesus's existence, I just don't know. If you read the page I linked, you'd find that no one wrote anything about a Jesus or a Christ during the time he was supposed to be alive.

It's generally accepted that the Synoptic Gospels, if not actually written by guys named Matthew, Mark and Luke, were written between the mid and late 1st century. Many biographies, BTW, are written posthumously.

[Mikey]

We had a discussion once where I espoused that all Christians feel superior to "non-Believers"
Tart said this wasn't so.
I asked him - where he thought he was going when he died
"To heaven" he said
And as an Athiest where I was headed when I die.
"Straight to hell" was his reply -

And then I asked 'Well you say you're going to Heaven and beacuse I don't believe as you do, I'm going to Hell - How the fuck does that NOT make you feel superior?"

lol

I don't think it went quite like that.

Shortened for sake of Brevity -otherwise what in this is not EXACTLY accurate?

If we were both planning vacations, and I was going to, say a villa in Tuscany, and you were going to a duplex in Bakersfield, that wouldn't make me "superior". It would just mean that I'm going to a nicer place.

[Van]

Jsc, how do you have a higher power without someone or something creating that higher power?

[Tom In VA]

Jsc, how do you have a higher power without someone or something creating that higher power?

Good question. I did not create a higher power, I became aware of it operating in life.

[Tom In VA]

Aside from the hefty dose of presumption, assumption, and arrogance, it was a very nice piece of prose.

[Goober McTuber]

Aside from the hefty dose of presumption, assumption, and arrogance, it was a very nice piece of prose.

Thank God we don't get anything like that from the thumpers in here.

[Goober McTuber]

Aside from the hefty dose of presumption, assumption, and arrogance, it was a very nice piece of prose.

Thank God we don't get anything like that from the thumpers in here.

I was thinking the same thing.

My god, who are the absolute worst at presumption, assumption, and arrogance? They know they're right. Shiite.

The Christians are just as bad as the Shiites.

[Tom In VA]

I wish they would stop too Sudden Sam, I hate seeing grown men victimized and crying over those mean old Christians.

The Nuns did a number on me that's for sure. They were brutal.

[BSmack]

I wish they would stop too Sudden Sam, I hate seeing grown men victimized and crying over those mean old Christians.

The Nuns did a number on me that's for sure. They were brutal.

There would not be nearly the number of Christians in the world today were not Europe forcibly converted upon pain of death one principality and kingdom at a time.

[Goober McTuber]

I wish they would stop too Sudden Sam, I hate seeing grown men victimized and crying over those mean old Christians.

Can’t speak for any of the other grown men around here, Tom, but I’m certainly not “victimized and crying”. More like amused and chuckling. Carrion.

[Tom In VA]

I think history backs you up on that BSmack. Not all ways were brutish either, many times they co-opted the rituals of whatever pagan religion existed in the region. But history does weigh in favor of the Church running away with "spare the rod".

Brutal shit.

[Tom In VA]

Carrion.

On Catherine's Wheel.

[mvscal]

There would not be nearly the number of Christians in the world today were not Europe forcibly converted upon pain of death one principality and kingdom at a time.

Pure bullshit.

[Goober McTuber]

There would not be nearly the number of Christians in the world today were not Europe forcibly converted upon pain of death one principality and kingdom at a time.

Pure bullshit.

I’m OK with pure bullshit. Not everybody on the street gives you pure bullshit anymore. I can’t stand it when those greedy bastards start cutting their bullshit with horseshit and God knows what else.

[Truman]

Interesting read, 88. Lifted this nugget from Walker's commentary:

Some people actually believe that just because so much voice and ink has spread the word of a character named Jesus throughout history, that this must mean that he actually lived. This argument simply does not hold. The number of people who believe or write about something or the professional degrees they hold say nothing at all about fact. Facts derive out of evidence, not from hearsay, not from hubris scholars, and certainly not from faithful believers. Regardless of the position or admiration held by a scholar, believer, or priest, if he or she cannot support their hypothesis with good evidence, then it can only remain a hypothesis.

Ironic. Tailor that first sentence a bit and substitute the words "Climate Change" or "Obama's Competence" for the word "Jesus", and the heads of half of the Infidels on this Board would explode....

'sayin. :wink:

[mvscal]

Granted I only read 1/2 of this horridly ill-informed thread but if nobody has dropped the myth-bomb I'd like to do so now.

Yeah back on page two, little fella. "Good job", sport.

I meant by someone who has a better understanding of the subject than a 4th grader. Someone who has been right about something in say the past 5 years. Someone who's putrid mind is not rotting from the inside out. Someone with enough understanding of life to not be a vile racist fucktard. For these and other reasons I must have missed your vapid rant. Now go fuckyourself you stupid black cock swilling douche.

Ad hominem much, you cock swallowing sack juggler?

[Roger_the_Shrubber]

So, what year is it?

Also, 88, nice post, but I notice you use the word "we" a lot. Try using the word "I" in the place of that. It makes for a much better post.

Like this:

MY understanding of physics does not allow ME to understand such things, as yet. I don't know what the universe was like an instant before the singularity. But I have a pretty good idea from a few millions of a second from that point forward. And I do not know how big the universe is, and whether it will eventually contract or continue to expand infinitely. I do not know its shape or what it contains. I basically don't know shit. But what I do know does not support a belief some God sitting in a heaven created it in 7 days (choose the length of those days any way you want as far as I am concerned), that he populated it with animals, created women from a rib of man, etc. I have not found any trace of a soul or other force in nature. And the Bible doesn't mention dinosaurs or any of the other things/creatures that we know inhabited this planet during the ages.

Reads much better. Don't you think?

Also, the Bible, like LOTS of documents, does not mention everything.

[Roger_the_Shrubber]

I wish they would stop too Sudden Sam, I hate seeing grown men victimized and crying over those mean old Christians.

The Nuns did a number on me that's for sure. They were brutal.

There would not be nearly the number of Christians in the world today were not Europe forcibly converted upon pain of death one principality and kingdom at a time.

Being juuuust a bit nicer than mvscal.........

Bsmack, there were only a handful of believers after Jesus died. RIGHT after he died. So exactly what "power" was it that they had, that caused the message of the messiah to spread from the Middle east, to all of europe and to, heck, most of civilization, and to become the world changing thing it became, and still is? What "power" was that? It was just a few outlaws, deluded on some bunch of crap, right? And according to 88, Jesus didn't even exist.

So,......11 guys and a few women had..........what? If it wasn't true.... then why did it change the world?

[poptart]

Excellent point there, Rog, and spot on.

In fact, this small group of rag-tag "nothings" started out in the midst of the MOST hostile enviornment you can imagine.

And these "dipshits" succeeded beyond belief, overcoming overwhelming political and social authority, by pimping something that was a wacked out delusional lie??

lol


I'd suggest people seriously give this some open-minded consideration.

[M Club]

Excellent point there, Rog, and spot on.

In fact, this small group of rag-tag "nothings" started out in the midst of the MOST hostile enviornment you can imagine.

And these "dipshits" succeeded beyond belief, overcoming overwhelming political and social authority, by pimping something that was a wacked out delusional lie??

lol


I'd suggest people seriously give this some open-minded consideration.

what a fruitcake. everything you say applies equally to islam, which you conveniently dismiss before making yet other point that applies to islam.

and pill popper, you can go ahead and throw the 'we' back in 88's post since i'm pretty sure your understanding of physics extends only to the point where you drop some tired line about "i looked for answers and found them" without actually explaining those answers as anything other than faith. pussy.

[poptart]

everything you say applies equally to islam, which you conveniently dismiss before making yet other point that applies to islam.

What is this supposed to mean?

[M Club]

it means your standard of evidence is so low that you're clinically retarded. "omg, a bunch of fanatical hippies died for something they believed to be true, ergo it must be da twoof." i must have missed the part where muhammed told everyone god told him to write a book and everyone just fell on their face and worshipped, no questions asked.

[poptart]

"omg, a bunch of fanatical hippies died for something they believed to be true, ergo it must be da twoof."

It's clear that you haven't read what I've posted.

Your petulant fits of red-faced anger dissuaded you from doing so?


The apostles departed Jesus and fled when he was going to be killed.
They gave up on it.

Those 12 apostles, if Jesus never rose, later willingly went to their deaths (separately and individually) KNOWING that they were doing so for a FRAUD.

Do you know any person who would die torturously for what he knows to be a fraud, let alone twelve people, individually, and all for the same reason?

I don't think you should be goofy about this.

[Van]

pop, if Jesus was the son of God, then why did only a handful of people believe that to be the case during his lifetime, and immediately thereafter? By and large, the people who actually saw the man - assuming he ever existed - didn't believe him to be a deity, and their numbers include those who would've actually witnessed his miracles with their own two eyes.

Instead, Jesus supposedly died as a pauper of mostly ill repute, and, like James Dean, the best career move he ever made was to die. His legend grew after he was gone, when nobody was around to refute it.

So, what you see as an "excellent point" is only more damning evidence to the contrary for me and many others.

You also need to get off your point about the apostles dying over what they knew to be a fraud. No, they died for whatever reason, one among many being their belief in something. A belief in something that isn't factual doesn't necessarily mean a belief in something known to be a fraud. It simply means they were mistaken in their belief, as are suicide bombers who are led to believe in that whole fairy tale.

[poptart]

pop, if Jesus was the son of God, then why did only a handful of people believe that to be the case during his lifetime, and immediately thereafter?

The short answer I have to give you for that, Van, points to two things.

1. The people of that region were strongly (to say the least) schooled in the Old Testament. The focal point of Scripture was the coming Messiah. Jesus didn't at all match up with the expectation they had formed of who and what the Messiah would be. He was a 180 away from it. While He performed many great and miraculous things, it was sometimes attributed to Him being demonic. He just was not, and could not be, the Messiah in their eyes because He didn't fit their misunderstanding of what the Messiah would be.

2. Maybe more important is what we see when the first person makes the realization that Jesus is the Christ - this is recorded in Matthew 16, where Peter confesses that He knows that Jesus is the Christ.
When Peter makes the realization, Jesus then says ...

Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona (Peter): for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.


Having the realization and confession that Jesus is the Christ is an awakening of the spirit which is initiated ... by God.

The people who were around Jesus when He was doing His ministry were not spiritually moved to recognize that He is Christ.

[M Club]

"omg, a bunch of fanatical hippies died for something they believed to be true, ergo it must be da twoof."

It's clear that you haven't read what I've posted.

Your petulant fits of red-faced anger dissuaded you from doing so?

i have read what you've written. it's absolutely unconvincing. you want people to suspend belief in physical science because 12 guys we know of because of a book died for something they thought to be true. again, if that's your standard of evidence, then you must apply it consistently, which, as someone's already pointed out before, means that the much more than 12 people who've blown themselves in just the last year - "separately and individually" - have a whole lot of fucking to do now that they have their 72.

it's fascinating how you can't put forth any sort of argument that doesn't beg the question then accuse people and their logic of failing to have an open mind.

[M Club]

2. Maybe more important is what we see when the first person makes the realization that Jesus is the Christ - this is recorded in Matthew 16, where Peter confesses that He knows that Jesus is the Christ.
When Peter makes the realization, Jesus then says ...

Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona (Peter): for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

so basically, if someone say's he's the christ, and another says sure, then he actually is the christ? so that means david koresh was the real deal, eh. retard.

[ppanther]

I am, and I can also guarantee you that I am hardly alone.

I'm just curious, Van. What have you done in the past decade that would count as an honest attempt at finding faith? You told me nearly 10 years ago that you wished you were able to have it, and you're saying the same thing now. Have you actually sought faith since then? If so, how?

[Dinsdale]

Do you know any person who would die torturously for what he knows to be a fraud, let alone twelve people, individually, and all for the same reason?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven's_G ... ous_group)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonestown

[Van]

pop, if Jesus was the son of God, then why did only a handful of people believe that to be the case during his lifetime, and immediately thereafter?

The short answer I have to give you for that, Van, points to two things.

1. The people of that region were strongly (to say the least) schooled in the Old Testament. The focal point of Scripture was the coming Messiah. Jesus didn't at all match up with the expectation they had formed of who and what the Messiah would be. He was a 180 away from it. While He performed many great and miraculous things, it was sometimes attributed to Him being demonic. He just was not, and could not be, the Messiah in their eyes because He didn't fit their misunderstanding of what the Messiah would be.

That might apply to the Jews, but what about the Romans and everyone else who saw him?

The guy was supposed to be fucking God. He couldn't disabuse notions held by primitive sheepfuckers?

C'mon, pop. Those people were full-on lemmings who could be led to believe anything. They've got God in their midst performing miracles, and they still aren't buying it?

Why? Because Christ didn't perform any more 'miracles' than other 'prophets' of the time, that's why. He didn't actually do any of those miracles; rather, time and fanciful interpretation built him into a legend.

2. Maybe more important is what we see when the first person makes the realization that Jesus is the Christ - this is recorded in Matthew 16, where Peter confesses that He knows that Jesus is the Christ.

Oughtta tell you right there that's it's nonsense.

When Peter makes the realization, Jesus then says ...

And we know any of this to be true, how?

Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona (Peter): for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

BFD. Everyone thinks their father is in heaven.

Having the realization and confession that Jesus is the Christ is an awakening of the spirit which is initiated ... by God.

As well as hunger, pain or peyote.

The people who were around Jesus when He was doing His ministry were not spiritually moved to recognize that He is Christ.

If he can't even move the spirit of people who are with him in the flesh, well...Jesus, pop, this is sheer lunacy. Your arguments and all the evidence point to the opposite conclusion of the one you've drawn.