Lillian Vernon wrote:He was 1000% more entertaining as a performer and wrote a lot of very entertaining, even comedic songs.
And how do you know he "couldn't do it?" Maybe he chose not to because he wasn't a jizzhead.
AC does some more extended runs on a couple of those songs above and I have seen him do it live too. The styles are a bit different between AC and SRV/Bonermassa, but to say AC couldn't even "sniff SRV's guitar strap" is fucking elitism at it's most flagrant.
1000% more entertaining than whom? Just how the fukk does one measure entertaining?
And, no, Van is not being flagrantly elite, well, maybe a little when he goes on a Steve Vai fellatio binge. he is simply stating fact. Anyone that can play like SRV, sure the fukk would work a little of it into his act.
Just accept AC for what he is, a world class bluesman, but, not a world class guitar player.
mvscal wrote:The only precious metals in a SHTF scenario are lead and brass.
Van wrote:LV calling SRV of all people a 'jizzhead' pretty much obviates any increase in my esteem she'd gained by knowing about AC.
Jesus, what a fucking ignorant, obtuse take, Lobotomy Vexed.
Where was he called a jizzhead?
Right here...
Van is not impressed by the capo, the bizarre tuning or anything else but his chosen jizzlords.
Never mind the fact that a middle-aged woman simply cannot help herself from speaking like a fourteen year old Beavis & Butthead wannabe, with her brilliant 'jizzlord' and 'douchelord' lingo. I can't believe that she isn't embarrassed simply by how she presents herself; like a stupid, teenage pothead. One would think a middle-aged attorney's daily vocabulary would've advanced past that stage; or at least her self-awareness.
No, I'm not impressed by a capo, and why would I be? Dave Matthews lives with one, and what about it? Relying on a capo doesn't mean a person has chops; not in the least. If anything, it often means the opposite. It means they're not exactly Allan Holdsworth, and they don't even need a good chunk of the available fretboard. It means their vocabulary on the instrument is greatly reduced, by definition. They're giving up the entire lower register, whether it be for open chords or any sort of soloing down by the nut.
No, not impresssed. If a person incorporates a capo into their playing for certain things, fine. Relying on one for everything? That means he's cheating himself, and he doesn't even care about all the things he can't play, as a result; things other people can play, along with all those same things he can play.
There is no argument to be made in favor of permanently reducing the fretboard by a third. It's a tool for a very limited player, by design.
LV has a really ignorant habit of calling anybody who's significantly better than her favorite people 'jizz' this and 'gay' that, usually ending in '-lord'. In the meantime, she's wildly impressed by a gain-speed dependent one trick pony like Dimebag. The guy is certainly good, but if ever there was a guy who gratuitiously speed-jizzed at nearly every possible opportunity, it's that guy...and he did it almost exclusively with the help of massive amounts of cheater distortion.
And who is this Bonersmuggla guy? Don't know him.
Not surprising, since he's not a metal player. I notice though that you didn't answer the question. Were those AC scales he was using in India/Mountain Time, or AC licks, or AC-influenced anything? Could AC have played any of it, much less written it?
LV asked the stupid question...
And how do you know AC couldn't do it? Maybe he chose not to because he wasn't a jizzhead.
Or maybe it was because he has a fifty year career, none of which includes even the slightest inkling of any technical facility beyond what Nick correctly referred to as 'gut bucket' blues. At some point, hey, if AC could have, he would have. Every player shows it eventually, if they have it. They may not end up living there, but it'll show itself. With AC, obviously he never possessed even a little bit of it.
He was a master at what he did, doubtless, but there wasn't very much that he did. He wasn't educated in the least. He didn't know any theory, he couldn't read, and he sure as fuck didn't possess the myriad techniques of a Joe Bonamassa, who's completely versed in all manner of modal playing, scales, basic and advanced theory, finger picking, alternate picking, blues, rock, etc.
He plays slowly, quite often. He plays slide. He plays acoustic. He phrases. He employs long runs. He uses complex chords. He uses double stops. He uses capos. He plays clean. He uses medium gain.
The fact that you aren't aware of him, and LV is only aware of him enough to label him a 'jizzlord', that only speaks to how weak LV's take really is. She doesn't know her ass from a hole in the ground about things she loudly bleats, then dismisses.
Bottom line, love him or hate him, there simply is no arguing that in terms of chops he's light years beyond Albert Collins. Whether a clueless clown like Marty doesn't get him is irrelevant. There is no accounting for or arguing taste.
Ignorance, however, needs to be brought to light and labeled for what it is, and in LV's case she mistakes her barely educated personal preferences for knowledge. LV is all about aggressive ignorance, embarrassingly voiced.
you couldn't be more wrong about the capo, Lord Van. in fact, from your comments, it's obvious you have no clue as to what it's used for, which is only to facilitate open chords in different keys.
Watch some Paco de Lucia vids on youtube and get back to me. He shreds every single guitarist mentioned in this thread by a MILE. EVERY SINGLE ONE.
Paco also goes without a capo; quite frequently, in fact. He does, as do all guitarists who don't wish to limit themselves.
AC? He doesn't just use a capo, he uses it all the time, and he obliterates half the fretboard with it!
Paco, you say?
Notice any capos there, with any of them? Also, LV even attempted to make an excuse for AC about his lack of chops, saying, "But he doesn't use a pick!"
Yeah, well, neither does Paco. Dude still has chops, though, you fucking idiot. Jesus, you people...
van didn't claim anyone playing with a capo is the suck. He said it limits the instrument. Also, notice where AC's capo is compared to Paco's. Paco's is right at the end of the fretboard compared to AC's in that vid.
As for whether or not bonnermassager could play flamenco, with the greatest flamenco player in history, probably not. But AC couldn't even do the accompanying hand clapping.
mvscal wrote:The only precious metals in a SHTF scenario are lead and brass.
Yep, and I also said that using a capo is fine, provided it's not all the guy ever does. Playing with a capo, as with using any other technique, why not? It's just one more tool in the tool box. May as well use 'em all, as needed.
Paco doesn't rely on it, though. Paco also doesn't play in only one position, directly above the capo, the way AC does. Paco plays in every position, all over the board.
Oh, you know what else Paco, SRV and Joe Bonamassa play that AC doesn't?
CHORDS! Lots and lots of chords!
Here's AC playing with a guy who actually does have some real chops. Check it out. It's kinda cool, the way that other guy plays chords and goes all over the fretboard. It's like, oh, I dunno, being that he's a full-fledged guitarist, he has way more to say, and way more abillity to say it...
This is getting to be like kicking puppies. :)
Disclaimer: I still loved Albert Collins. He sounded great, and he had great taste in the very little that he knew how to play. He never needed to change. He was just fine the way he was.
Typical Lord Van meltdown. You're getting trolled out the ass and bleat "IDIOTS!" and the like... all while you're going down hard in flames. I give you props for being totally consistent in your sanctimony and obliviousness.
:lv:
:D
Now address the fucking claim, fuckface: Paco de Lucia has more chops than anybody mentioned in this thread.
smackaholic wrote: But AC couldn't even do the accompanying hand clapping.
:D
and btw, the capo goes where the singer wants it or the songs calls for it. Albert Collins has a key or a few keys he likes to sing in. That's the reasoning.
If you think AC couldn't play licks without the capo, that's just absurd. It's about the vocals.
Is someone asserting that Albert Collins is the "best" blues player? Huh? Well, forget it in strict music terms. Of course he was very limited in both technique and scope. And by that I mean his ability to work deep into a blues form and develop melodic motifs and structures to much fuller degrees than standard gut bucket juke joint twelve-bar drinking tunes. In other words, moving towards jazz. Obviously major innovators like Hendrix, Page, Allman, Beck, and even Garcia, had more chops and scope than AC. But.....
When you look at that head--that obdurate token of 400 hundred years of pathological endurance--and realize that you could drive a railroad spike through that guy's skull and he'd shrug it off and order another drink--you're dealing with something that goes far beyond mere categories of "chops" and so forth.
Now it gets good. Getting your ass kicked? Go to the "You're melting!" and "I was trolling you!" cards.
Fuuuuck. That's what the venerable SG has been reduced to? Sticking up for his ridiculous sister, getting hammered in the process, then punting with the ultimate pussy move?
Even better will be when LV comes in to 'rack' you for getting your head kicked in, followed by Katy describing your sheer brilliance in getting over by rolling over.
Paco de Lucia has more chops than anybody mentioned in this thread.
Other than Holdsworth, DiMeola and possibly McLaughlin, yes, he does. He certainly has more chops than Bonamassa, SRV or Albert Collins. Guys like DeLucia, DiMeola and Holdsworth are on completely different planets than the other guys mentioned in this thread, in terms of chops.
Now, you address the point you've twice dodged, about Bonamassa only playing AC's scales. I know you have no response to that, since he's clearly playing completely different scales, and he's playing them in ways AC never dreamt, but take a stab at it anyway. Go ahead, get over some more with your brilliant trolling. Stellar shit, really.
Oh, and I kinda like that 'Lord Van" deal you've adopted. Knowing your role is good. Go ahead and keep using it.
Last edited by Van on Thu Jan 14, 2010 10:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.
When you look at that head--that obdurate token of 400 hundred years of pathological endurance
:serious applause:
Just one thing, Nick. You don't need to add the 'hundred' when you already said '400'. Still, what a perfect description of that guy's incredible, prehistoric Half Dome.
Last edited by Van on Thu Jan 14, 2010 10:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Tom In VA wrote:RACK LTS, best post from you ever - one of them anyway.
My intention with this thread was not to turn LTS into a better poster, but I suppose this unintended consequence is just a bonus. I understood that post, so I consider that a milestone. :D
On the other hand, Van's pompous obsession with the technical ability of guitarists alone is something that will obviously never change.
I stipulated MY definition of chops. Since your definition of chops is limited to how many notes a player can shred per second, no that's wasn't AC's bag, but all I know is when it comes time to kick back and listen to some blues, I would much rather listen to AC than SRV or Bonermassa, therefore he has the best blues chops to ME.
To bring Holdsworth, Paco and the like into the discussion isn't even applicable to my point, because they are a whole different genre. We've been through this a million times already - under your definition of the best chops, you would have to make this jizzhead the #1 guitar player on earth...
No, LV, I wouldn't, you lactose belching mongoloid. How are you still this goddamn stupid, this late into the game?
Speed is only one more tool in the toolbox. Speed is not the only definition of 'chops'. I ran through a dozen different techniques Bonamassa has that AC never had; all of which contribute towards having chops, and most of 'em have nothing to do with speed.
Chops are about vocabulary. How many things can you say, and how well can you say them? Can you say them fluidly, effortlessly, with great creativity and imagination? Or are you limited to saying one thing over and over?
See if you can then finally figure out why Paco or Holdsworth has chops, and AC doesn't.
Playing simple, cool sounds you like, that ain't chops. It's feel. You like AC's tone, his note selection, his phrasing and his attack. That's great. So do I, as a matter of fact. In terms of his chops, however, he has, oh, one? What can he do on a guitar, besides play single note pentatonic bursts in one position? Okay, two, since he can also do bent notes with vibrato.
What else can he do?
Paco has chops without ever playing fast. So does Steve Morse. So does Holdsworth. So does...just about anyone. I'd guarantee you that your own brother and 'Spray have far more chops than AC ever had. Probably so do you. Doesn't matter if you still think AC sounds cooler. That's not the point. That's a different point; a point merely of preference.
LV wrote:I thought Gary Moore's crappy sounding jizz explosion ruined Cold, Cold, Feeling above.
It sounded like SHIT and totally out of place.
As does every post you make. By all means, though, keep trying to change the point. Keep trying to make it about what YOU like, because your juvenile tastes in, well, everything, that should always be the final arbiter. If you like something, that means objective facts are irrelevant.
Gotcha. Solid debate foundation, LV, Esq.
No, seriously, you just keep telling yourself how great and soulful Pantera sounds, while everybody else is 'jizzing'. Keep trying to convince yourself that the Earth is flat and AC has great chops. Keep at it, and pretty soon here your middle-aged self will find yet another spot to drop another pithy '-lord' insult....you know, like everyone else did when they were fourteen.
Van wrote:If you like something, that means objective facts are irrelevant.
You seem to be under the mistaken impression that there is such thing as objective fact when it comes to taste in music, that's why you come off as such an elitist asshole.
Objective fact says the world record holder for the fastest notes on earth is the best guitar player. My opinion says Gary Moore sounded like shit and didn't hold a candle to AC in that video you posted.
Van wrote:If you like something, that means objective facts are irrelevant.
You seem to be under the mistaken impression that there is such thing as objective fact when it comes to taste in music, that's why you come off as such an elitist asshole.
No, you stupidly diseased cunt, I'm saying that your taste in music is irrelevant to the discussion. Arguing taste is pointless, since it 's all just personal preference. The fact that you prefer one guy to another has no bearing on anything. The objective portion comes in measuring demonstable techniques. That isn't personal opinion, nor is it based on preference. It's fact-based. It's not my opinion that AC does not have the chops of Joe Bonamassa. That's a fact, same is it's a fact that he doesn't have the chops of Paco DeLucia. There are no gray areas there. AC does not have the technical facility - the chops - to hang with those guys.
Whether you or I you prefer the simplistic things AC plays, or the more complex things other people play, either way, it's completely irrelevant. That's not the point. Nobody's arguing taste, because taste cannot be argued. The fact that you can't seem to get this basic point through your thick skull is also the point; namely, that you're a fucking idiot.
Objective fact says the world record holder for the fastest notes on earth is the best guitar player.
No, it merely says that he's the fastest alternate picker. Since when does being the best at that one thing determine 'best guitar player'? It doesn't. There are a thousand other techniques that go into guitar playing. Blindingly fast alternate picking is merely one small technique among many.
Jesus, you suck at this, LV. For all the constant chest-thumping you do about how you run fools left and right on every board you infect, I'd like to know who the hell these people are? You are genuinely one of the worst debaters and worst posters I've ever encountered, bar none. Granted, you're not the absolute dumbest poster I've ever seen, but you also bring no humor either. All you do is act stubborn, cuss (poorly), proclaim your excellence and otherwise suck out loud. You haven't shown yourself to be good at a single thing yet, besides being loudly, doggedly ignorant.
As a poster, you have no chops, and you have all the feel of Dave Mustaine.
My opinion says Gary Moore sounded like shit and didn't hold a candle to AC in that video you posted.
Who cares? Your opinon means nothing, because:
-Your taste in most everything is juvenile and lame anyway.
-We're not arguing over which person you like better. We're arguing over who has more chops? Remember, you thick dolt? "AC has the best chops in blues," was your original contention which started all this. It wasn't, "AC is my favorite." I would've left that one alone, no problem.
Best chops? Jesus prostate cancer on a Chrysler speculum, are you insane?? Clearly, Gary Moore runs circles around AC when it comes to chops. Robben Ford? Larry Carlton? Blues Saraceno? Ever heard of these people?
What the hell is wrong with you?
You say Gary Moore sounded like shit, yet who was the one playing the chords to support the song? It wasn't AC. Who was the one who played over more than a mere five frets, locked into one position? It wasn't AC. Who was the one who showed a variety of skillsets? It wasn't AC.
It's never AC, because he has no chops. He can only do a couple things, and they're very simple things. It doesn't matter that you like those simple things. Debating who we like better? That's a pointless argument for another day.
Wow, I didn't think picking you apart logically was even worth my time, but if you are going to get this sanctimonious about it...
Van wrote:technical facility - the chops
So your definition of chops is "technical facilty" now? Before, you had a whole laundry list of what chops include. I already gave my definition of what it is and I have stuck with that. You on the other hand...
Van wrote:Arguing taste is pointless, since it 's all just personal preference.... Nobody's arguing taste, because taste cannot be argued...
Van wrote:Who cares? Your opinon means nothing, because:
-Your taste in most everything is juvenile and lame anyway.
Yea, you are really good at this.
Marty hit the nail on the head when he said you wouldn't know the differnce between "the blues" and "the purples."
SRV and Bonamassa are more of a crossover of blues/rock than they are pure blues anyway. To stay logical, you need to be arguing that BB and Albert King's chops leave AC in the dust.
Van wrote:Gary Moore runs circles around AC when it comes to chops.
Not in that song he didn't - it SUCKED.
Van wrote:What the hell is wrong with you?
Logic? Go read MY definition of chops.
Van wrote:You say Gary Moore sounded like shit, yet who was the one playing the chords to support the song? It wasn't AC. Who was the one who played over more than a mere five frets, locked into one position? It wasn't AC. Who was the one who showed a variety of skillsets? It wasn't AC.
Who gives a fuck? His lead sucked and the song would have been better if he would have stuck to rhythm and let AC play all the leads.
Lillian Vernon wrote:Wow, I didn't think picking you apart logically was even worth my time
Obviously, since you've yet to begin even making the attempt. Instead, you've stomped your feet and shouted, "I like what I like! Wah!"
but if you are going to get this sanctimonious about it...
Sanctiminous? Do you even know what that word means, much less how to use it correctly?
Van wrote:technical facility - the chops
So your definition of chops is "technical facilty" now?
Always has been. Technical facility specifically refers to having a whole laundry list of techniques at one's disposal. That's what I mentioned with Joe Bonamassa. He's fluent in a multitude of skill sets. That's technical facility. The more things you can do, and do well, the more technical facility you possess...the more chops you have.
Does even that concept elude you now too?
You fucking stoner. :)
Before, you had a whole laundry list of what chops include. I already gave my definition of what it is and I have stuck with that. You on the other hand...
I haven't wavered one iota from what 'chops' means. You just keep trying to redefine it, to where it will conveniently mean 'What LV enjoys hearing', which basically makes you a rather dimwitted chimpanzee.
Van wrote:Arguing taste is pointless, since it 's all just personal preference.... Nobody's arguing taste, because taste cannot be argued...
Van wrote:Who cares? Your opinon means nothing, because:
-Your taste in most everything is juvenile and lame anyway.
Yea, you are really good at this.
Marty hit the nail on the head when he said you wouldn't know the differnce between "the blues" and "the purples."
When you're resorting to Marty for his opinion on guitar players, much less blues players, it's really time for you to impale your head on a railroad spike. Marty knows about as much about guitar as you do about being pleasant, informative, entertaining and well-spoken.
You and Marty could combine to write a thesis entitled: I don't know a fucking thing, yet I'll loudly talk your ear off about it.
SRV and Bonamassa are more of a crossover of blues/rock than they are pure blues anyway.
Not that that's at all relevant to anything when it comes to a discussion of chops, but yes, that's true; more so with Bonamassa than SRV. SRV was pure blues, all day long, though he could play blues rock too. Bonamassa started out as being mostly a pure blues player before gravitating more towards heavier blues rock.
Because they both had a decent degree of chops, they had the ability to play more than just 'pure blues'.
Guess who didn't.
To stay logical, you need to be arguing that BB and Albert King's chops leave AC in the dust.
No, that just makes for a more obvious apples-apples comparison, since the players are more similar. Chops are chops, regardless of genre. A player with a lot of chops has both B.B.'s and EVH's. Having blues chops doesn't preclude the ability to be skilled in other areas.
Among those three, though, Albert probably had the most chops, though not by any wide margin. It's debatable. They're all very basic, rudimentary players. They're all good at one thing; basically the same thing. Among the older black guys, the legends, Buddy Guy blows all three of them away, purely for chops.
Van wrote:Gary Moore runs circles around AC when it comes to chops.
Not in that song he didn't - it SUCKED.
Yes, in that song, he did. He played chords. He played all over the neck. He played slow and whispery quiet. He played loud and fast.
AC did one thing, over and over, in one spot on the neck.
How are you still not understanding this difference? Are you typing as you're getting DP'd by Shrubber and his collapsable aluminum cane? Just before you bent over to bang out this horrid piece of turgid prose, did he miss and jam 'em both in your giggling asterisk?
Van wrote:What the hell is wrong with you?
Logic? Go read MY definition of chops.
Exactly. You're missing logic. YOUR definition of chops simply means, 'I haven't a clue what the word means. I just like what I like. LALALALALALA!! I CAN'T HEAR YOU!!'
Van wrote:You say Gary Moore sounded like shit, yet who was the one playing the chords to support the song? It wasn't AC. Who was the one who played over more than a mere five frets, locked into one position? It wasn't AC. Who was the one who showed a variety of skillsets? It wasn't AC.
Who gives a fuck? His lead sucked and the song would have been better if he would have stuck to rhythm and let AC play all the leads.
You're dumber than the kid smelling school bus exhaust fumes out by the mustard plants of his satellite SEC classroom.
Okay, it's time to put you to bed, princess. You wanna know what chops are? Chops are when you can play his shit, and he can't play yours.
Exhibit A: Guy With Chops does a direct, faithful, note-perfect ghosting of one of the masters of the genre. He even cops the master's specific vibrato, and despite using totally different gear, he does a damn good job of doubling up the legend's tone. Now, just shut up and listen...
Are we agreed that what he played was entirely appropriate to the song, and that he did a very good job of it? He didn't go over the top, he didn't show up the legend, he just complemented him and paid homage to him. Along the way, he also provided chordal support to the song.
Agreed?
Exhibit B: Guy With Chops plays another song during the same show. Here, he separates himself from the legend, in that the legend could never even attempt the techniques Guy With Chops uses on this, his own song...
Notice how much slower and wider his vibrato became, once he was no longer copping B.B.? Notice the much more complex phrasing, the chord work, the different runs down low, etc?
It ain't just that he can play faster, it's that he's fluent in so many more techniques. That's chops.
This one will go eight miles over your grossly protruding forehead, so I'll just put this one out there for Wags and smackie...
Taste, feel, dynamics, chops.
Last edited by Van on Fri Jan 15, 2010 4:05 am, edited 5 times in total.
link me to the clips of dimeoverrated, holdswanker busting out those riffs using anything close to paco de lucia's flamenco technique.
i'm sorry, but shredding with a pick is for FAGGOTS.
proof: look at all the snot nosed fuckbags doing so on youtube. look through the dried boogers, jizz encrusted hands, and world of warcraft paraphernalia and notice what's going on.... any fuck can shred... some 12 year old from costa mesa is probably on there shredding faster than hell.
NOT any fuck can master the numerous flamenco techniques that make Paco the greatest guitarist in history.
i know who he is. do you seriously think I don't? what kind of a dumbfuck are you?
I like holdsworth, a lot. but he's ultimately pretty fucking tedious and cannot do what de lucia did.
De lucia's techinique is so fucking bitchin', he could easily play that whole tone wankery that holdsworth has convinced a small amount of jizzlords is cool.
it's wankery and it's fucking boring. impressive technique... but just lame.
Van wrote:Arguing taste is pointless, since it 's all just personal preference.... Nobody's arguing taste, because taste cannot be argued...
Van wrote:Who cares? Your opinon means nothing, because:
-Your taste in most everything is juvenile and lame anyway.
Maybe because it shows you are an illogical blowhard?
I defined my understanding of chops as the technical ability of the chosen style of the artist at the beginning of this thread. You have defined it several different ways and then painted yourself into a logical corner claiming that taste cannot be argued, then arguing as your first point that my taste is "juvenile and lame." If you want to argue over my definition of chops, fine, but all your other bloviating on the subject doesn't even apply, because I set out my definition at the beginning and stuck to my argument, whereas you flailed about like a hysterical jizz worshipper.
The statement that a legend deemed "Master of the Telecaster" has NO CHOPS makes you sound like a total dipshit.
And your statement that he can't play chords is ABSURD. I guess all those songs he wrote have no chord progressions?
Dime is not overrated. I don't even like his shredding, or anyone else's for that matter, it's his riffing that is badass and you even admitted the Walk lead is killer. He doesn't shred on that lead at all. Why are you even bringing up Dime? He is the best metal guitarist in my opinion, but we are not discussing metal. He does some cool guitar work in Rebel Meets Rebel too, he is definitely not just a shredder, and he is about the most soulful metal player out there, as much as the term "soul" even applies to metal, which is hardly at all. There is a certain southern groove to many of his riffs that is very cool and unique. He also pioneered the staccato style of metal riffing on Vulgar Display of Power.
But of course you would rather beat off to Guthrie Govan's boring fusion crap.
