No Chops?

Lillian Vernon · Post by **Lillian Vernon** » Wed Jan 13, 2010 12:48 am

A poster, who will remain nameless so as not to skew the outcome of this thread made the remark in chat last night that Albert Collins, known for more than half a century as the "Master of the Telecaster" has "no chops" and is very "rudimentary."

Agree or disagree?

Lillian Vernon · Post by **Lillian Vernon** » Wed Jan 13, 2010 12:50 am

Why wouldn't the vids post with the tags????

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxMYChh4 ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lg9VPEQ ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjrYLiIa ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjVfc8-Y ... re=related

Tom In VA · Post by **Tom In VA** » Wed Jan 13, 2010 12:52 am

You only need the bolded part in between the youtube tags.

watch?v=lxMYChh4ytQ

Lillian Vernon · Post by **Lillian Vernon** » Wed Jan 13, 2010 12:59 am

Thanks... Here are the other three...

Lillian Vernon · Post by **Lillian Vernon** » Wed Jan 13, 2010 1:03 am

Samurai Gangbang · Post by **Samurai Gangbang** » Wed Jan 13, 2010 1:12 am

dude just had such a bitchin' style. his techinical ability was pretty low, but any retard can learn to shred a mile a minute (of course there are exceptions, like when somebody has otherworldly technique, like vai, malmsteen, morse, etc). it's making licks sound bitchin' that takes talent.

Tom In VA · Post by **Tom In VA** » Wed Jan 13, 2010 1:18 am

I like it. I'm not uber critical though, if it sounds cool, I dig it. Collins, sounds cool.

smackaholic · Post by **smackaholic** » Wed Jan 13, 2010 1:28 am

Samurai Gangbang wrote:dude just had such a bitchin' style. his techinical ability was pretty low, but any retard can learn to shred a mile a minute (of course there are exceptions, like when somebody has otherworldly technique, like vai, malmsteen, morse, etc). it's making licks sound bitchin' that takes talent.

amen.

vai and malmsteen have chops out the ass, but, i wouldn't walk across the street to listen to them. i'd walk miles to listen to albert collins. he has soul and is a great showman. i could listen to him for hours.

Lillian Vernon · Post by **Lillian Vernon** » Wed Jan 13, 2010 1:51 am

Maybe there is confusion on the definition of the word "chops" here. Seems like everyone is assuming chops means speed. To me chops means technique in the chosen style of the artist. I disagree Collins technical ability is low, I think he has the best blues chops out there because they are so tasty and soulful, which to me translates into the best technique. Plus he is playing those licks with his fingers and some of them are very fast and clean, though speed is not his thing, you can hear is he capable of it, as he does flail through a run occasionally and some of them are not conventional blues runs. His use of silence is as amazing as his playing. It's the feel that makes his technique a cut above the others though. Is there a formal definition for "chops" or is it just a slang term?

Maybe the argument is a semantic one.

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Wed Jan 13, 2010 2:41 am

I'm so glad they call them licks. Groan.

--Vai fan

Van · Post by **Van** » Wed Jan 13, 2010 3:40 am

LV wrote:A poster, who will remain nameless so as...

I like that. That non sequitur comma really put it over the top, too.

Tom In VA · Post by **Tom In VA** » Wed Jan 13, 2010 3:44 am

How did I know it was you right away.

Van · Post by **Van** » Wed Jan 13, 2010 4:22 am

Yep, that was a toughie, Tom.

The entire argument was semantics, tilting back and forth over 'feel' vs 'chops'. Everyone agreed that 'feel' is far more important than chops. Chops without feel is worthless, while feel without chops still works very well.

Where it fell apart was when LV couldn't let go, and she became thoroughly silly, by stubbornly trying to tell me that Albert Collins could pull this off, including the technical things during the solo...

...which, of course, he simply could not. He couldn't have even attempted any of that...because he never had anywhere near those kinds of chops. Then, in a wildly misguided effort to stand her ground, LV even tried to say that she's seen AC do it, which, of course, she hasn't...because he couldn't. She capped it off by backpedaling and trying to say it was her opinion that AC could do those things, which wasn't her original point. Moreover, she wasn't stating an opinion, she was attempting to declare a fact, and her facts have no basis in reality.

Spray attempted to rush to her defense by saying some guys can say more with a single note than others can with a million, which of course is true, and nobody was arguing otherwise; but it had absolutely fuckall to do with the point. Her point was that AC had the best chops - not just the best feel - among bluesmen, which is genuinely absurd.

She simply confuses the terms 'feel' and 'chops', with the former being subjective and therefore debatable, and the latter definitely being objective, observable and demonstable.

Thhhhpppthh!

Regardless, the fact that LV is even into someone as cool as Albert Collins, well, hell, that did wonders in terms of increasing my regard for her. Any woman who likes real blues players, fuck me, they've got some serious potential. She may be as crazy as a leaking testicle, but she's got something cool inside her, and for once it ain't just a frozen dildo.

Shlomart Ben Yisrael · Wed Jan 13, 2010 4:24 am

Van wrote:

All fireworks

No fire

Van · Post by **Van** » Wed Jan 13, 2010 4:27 am

T'weren't the point, Marty. I simply used that as a demonstration of the types of chops AC never had. We weren't debating which style is better. We all agreed that AC sounds badass, and that he gets it done with what he brings to the table.

Shlomart Ben Yisrael · Wed Jan 13, 2010 4:38 am

Van wrote:I simply used that as a demonstration...

You simply used it as a demonstration that white bread mayo sandwich suburbians such as yourself wouldn't know the difference between "the blues" and "the purples".

Order another basket of wings, on me, a continue on in your fine tradition of bar-rock appreciation. Tuesdays is ladies night, and the guy with the feathers hanging off his Strat in the sequin shirt is laying down some fairly sweet "authentic, soulful" rhythms.

LTS TRN 2 · Post by **LTS TRN 2** » Wed Jan 13, 2010 7:21 am

So..how come no one's focusing on his use of a capo at the seventh fret for apparently every tune he ever played? That's all that counts in any discussion of his chops. He played straight gut bucket, and was given to the gospel sweat down loooong cord sing along, etc. Who asked this question...?

Van · Post by **Van** » Wed Jan 13, 2010 7:23 am

Marty, 'white bread mayo sandwich suburbians like you?'

You're going to throw that out there? Seriously?

This fucking stooge is going to talk shit, like he's living on the edge...

You're into juvenile punk rock, you ridiculous clown. You live in freaking Canada, which, at last check, wasn't exactly Straight Outta Compton. Your whole country is one big white bread mayo sandwich suburb. You're about as much of an anarchist as your Wrangler jammies are urban and edgy.

Marty, you're half a Gordon Lightfoot. Sit down, shut up, go put on a black t-shirt and pretend to be angry at The Machine, you goddamned fraud.

Katy · Post by **Katy** » Wed Jan 13, 2010 7:30 am

Pssst, Van. Marty isn't Perk.

fix · Post by **fix** » Wed Jan 13, 2010 7:37 am

Katy'd know better than anyone.

Lillian Vernon · Post by **Lillian Vernon** » Wed Jan 13, 2010 7:45 am

I also seem to recall in the midst of this conversation, your statement that Bonermassa was in no way influenced by Albert Collins. Without knowing for sure, I stated that he was whether he knows it or not based on hearing one single recording of his. Well, go check his Wiki page, where it is stated that he was in fact influenced by Albert Collins.

Here he is playing Albert Collins licks at 12 years of age.

I still think Collins has better chops based on my definition of the word. Nobody is better at playing the blues. NOBODY.

That's my opinion, but the only fact here not in dispute is that your latest jizz hero WAS influenced by Albert Collins, who was kicking ass before this punk was even born.

I did really like his rendition of ZZ Top's "Just Got Paid" though, that's sure to go down in the annals of history.

Katy · Post by **Katy** » Wed Jan 13, 2010 7:47 am

Otis wrote:Katy'd know better than anyone.

I should hope so.

THRASHER · Post by **THRASHER** » Wed Jan 13, 2010 9:43 am

Van wrote:Marty, 'white bread mayo sandwich suburbians like you?'

You're going to throw that out there? Seriously?

This fucking stooge is going to talk shit, like he's living on the edge...

You're into juvenile punk rock, you ridiculous clown. You live in freaking Canada, which, at last check, wasn't exactly Straight Outta Compton. Your whole country is one big white bread mayo sandwich suburb. You're about as much of an anarchist as your Wrangler jammies are urban and edgy.

Marty, you're half a Gordon Lightfoot. Sit down, shut up, go put on a black t-shirt and pretend to be angry at The Machine, you goddamned fraud.

Damn, if this isn't a glaring example of an epic meltdown to end all meltdowns, I don't know what is.

The fact that Martyred might not be Perk is beside the point that Van actually was so enraged by someone not agreeing with his musical taste, that instead of sticking to the issue, he went and found a decade old photograph in order to bolster an irrelevant personal attack on his detractor.

Can you say P-S-Y-C-H-O

smackaholic · Post by **smackaholic** » Wed Jan 13, 2010 2:33 pm

Katy wrote:Pssst, Van. Marty isn't Perk.

STFU. Van's on a roll here. Just sit back and enjoy some world class smack, even if it's not based in fact. As if anything in this sordid clambake is based in fact.

smackaholic · Post by **smackaholic** » Wed Jan 13, 2010 2:36 pm

So who is the king of the blues if the measuring stick is the entire feel/chops package?

Actually, we already know who the king is.

SRV

It's not even close.

His feel was the match of AC or any other old black dude and his chops stand up to vai. mal;msteen or any other shred wanker.

So, I guess the question would be who's second best?

Van · Post by **Van** » Wed Jan 13, 2010 5:21 pm

LV, you seem to recall that I said he was 'in no way' influenced by AC, or any of the American masters? If that's the case, then I find it hard to believe that you aren't still heavily smoking pot.

I never said that. Quite the opposite, in fact. What I said was that I'd heard a recent interview with him, wherein he said that while yes, he was certainly well aware of the America blues masters and he loved them too, by no means where they his greatest influences. I said his greatest influences were the next generation of British blues players, such as Clapton, Page and Rory Gallagher, along with Danny Gatton.

Speaking of your Wiki page reference, here ya go...

At the age of 11, during a short period of being mentored by Danny Gatton, he learned such styles as country and jazz as well as heavy rock. During this time with Gatton, Bonamassa sat in with Gatton's band whenever they played in New York. He first opened for B. B. King at 12 years of age. After first hearing him play, King said, “This kid's potential is unbelievable. He hasn't even begun to scratch the surface. He's one of a kind.” At 14, he was invited to attend a Fender guitar event; during that trip to the West Coast he met Berry Oakley, Jr. Bonamassa and Berry founded the group Bloodline with Miles Davis's son Erin and Robby Krieger's son Waylon. They released one album which produced two chart singles — "Stone Cold Hearted", and "Dixie Peach." He has since played with other music greats including Buddy Guy, Foreigner, Robert Cray, Stephen Stills, Joe Cocker, Gregg Allman, Steve Winwood, Paul Jones, Eric Clapton, and Derek Trucks.

Influences
Unlike other successful blues-rock guitarists, Bonamassa has cited his influences as being British and Irish blues acts, rather than American acts. In an interview in Guitarist magazine (issue 265), he cited the three albums that had the biggest influence on his playing: John Mayall & the Bluesbreakers with Eric Clapton (the Beano album), Rory Gallagher's Irish Tour and Goodbye by Cream. He also stated that Stevie Ray Vaughan's Texas Flood was a big influence at a young age.

He elaborated further on his influences in his interview:

"You know, my heroes were the English guys – Paul Kossoff, Peter Green, Eric Clapton. There’s so many - there’s Gary Moore, Rory Gallagher – another Irishman who played the same things, but don’t tell him that. But those guys were my guys – Jeff Beck, Jimmy Page. There’s a certain sophistication to their approach to the blues that I really like, more so than the American blues that I was listening to. B. B. King’s a big influence – he’s probably my biggest traditional influence. I love Muddy Waters, Robert Johnson and T-Bone Walker and stuff like that, but I couldn’t sit down… I was always forcing myself to listen to whole records by them, where I’d rather listen to Humble Pie do "I'm Ready" than Muddy Waters, you know? I think, the English interpretation of the blues just hit me a lot better, you know?"

Van · Post by **Van** » Wed Jan 13, 2010 5:38 pm

Oh, and as to whether Marty is Perk? Doesn't really even matter, in this context.

This...

You're into juvenile punk rock, you ridiculous clown. You live in freaking Canada, which, at last check, wasn't exactly Straight Outta Compton. Your whole country is one big white bread mayo sandwich suburb. You're about as much of an anarchist as your Wrangler jammies are urban and edgy.

Marty, you're half a Gordon Lightfoot. Sit down, shut up, go put on a black t-shirt and pretend to be angry at The Machine, you goddamned fraud.

...definitely is spot on Marty: the punk rock 'anarchist' tool who pretends to be edgy and urban while being a neutered fraud from an entire country devoted to being nothing more than a white bread suburb of another country.

Along the way, it's interesting that now he's supposedly not Perk - though that's merely according to Katy, not Marty himself - considering Marty's admitted on many occasions to being the guy in that picture.

Maybe he was just trolling? No matter. Marty simply Marty is well more than enough.

Lillian Vernon · Post by **Lillian Vernon** » Thu Jan 14, 2010 12:42 am

Why did you omit the part where Albert Collins is listed as an additional influence?

Fuck, you knew I read the page, I'm the one who brought it up. :?

So what the hell kind of stratgey is it to go there and only pull out the part you said and I never disputed? What a wanker move.

And you did say he was not influenced by Albert Collins, citing those exact comments you posted above. I said he was whether he knows it or not and you disagreed, again citing those comments. Remember? That's when I said, "Maybe he's a racist" because I could hear that he was whether he would admit it or not.

Van · Post by **Van** » Thu Jan 14, 2010 1:10 am

About the time you suggested he might be a racist is when you really started going downhill.

I posted what was pertinent: That his primary influences were Brits, plus Danny Gatton. That's what I said. I never said that he had not one iota of influence from AC, or anyone else. I said they weren't anywhere near his main influences, in response to you saying he's an AC wannabe, and his licks are stolen AC licks, both of which were ludicrous statements.

I told you, no, there's no way in hell he's an AC wannabe, because that guy wasn't even close to being among his main influences. His influence by AC was way down the list, and he neither plays nor sounds anything like the guy....precisely because his main influences were from the next generation. His main influences were guys who went on extended jams, not just short, staccato bursts.

Samurai Gangbang · Post by **Samurai Gangbang** » Thu Jan 14, 2010 1:13 am

Van wrote:short, staccato bursts.

like srv?

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Thu Jan 14, 2010 1:14 am

This is the first LV thread that didn't make me want to splash gasoline in my eyes and run hell bent for matches.

Katy · Post by **Katy** » Thu Jan 14, 2010 1:16 am

PSUFAN wrote:This is the first LV thread that didn't make me want to splash gasoline in my eyes and run hell bent for matches.

S'what I was trying to say to you guys. Give her time....LV is $$.

Van · Post by **Van** » Thu Jan 14, 2010 1:16 am

No, nothing at all like SRV. SRV went on long, extended, lyrical jams. He didn't just intersperse licks. Things like Dirty Pool couldn't be more far removed from the type of phrasing AC specialized in.

Lillian Vernon · Post by **Lillian Vernon** » Thu Jan 14, 2010 1:38 am

PSUFAN wrote:This is the first LV thread that didn't make me want to splash gasoline in my eyes and run hell bent for matches.

I thought you liked my "mvscal Wants My Cooter" thread too?

Van..... Your exaggerations and distortions are hilarious. I never called him an AC "wannabe" and all I said was that some of these licks are a direct rip of AC when we were listening to it.

He's actually more of a SRV rip.

Samurai Gangbang · Post by **Samurai Gangbang** » Thu Jan 14, 2010 2:02 am

srv went on long lyrical jams based upon the same scales used by albert collins and also relying on the same collection of licks, which was impressive, but not mind blowing.

long lyrical jams can be total, utter, boring bullshit.

and one example doesn't prove it. srv was as much as a phrased player as AC. AC just did it with more style.

Van · Post by **Van** » Thu Jan 14, 2010 2:05 am

LV, yes, if anything, he's much more of an SRV rip, and a Danny Gatton rip, and definitely a Clapton rip. He's not an AC rip at all...in no way, shape or form. His playing bears no resemblance whatsoever to AC's.

Van · Post by **Van** » Thu Jan 14, 2010 2:20 am

Samurai Gangbang wrote:srv went on long lyrical jams based upon the same scales used by albert collins

So the fuck what? Fact is, all 'basic' blues players use the same major and minor pentatonic scales. That's where any similarities end between AC and Bonamassa, and the fact is Bonamassa does way more than play basic blues scales. AC was confined to them; Bonamassa definitely isn't.

I know you know guitar, so tell me, does this sound even remotely like an AC scale? Does this anything at all like AC?

Sounds a fuckuva lot more like Jimmy Page than Albert Collins to me. How about you?

and also relying on the same collection of licks, which was impressive, but not mind blowing.

No, it isn't the same collection of tricks. He goes into far more technical depth than AC ever could, and his execution of those techniques is something AC couldn't even attempt.

Also, nobody was arguing whether or not it was 'mind blowing'. We weren't even arguing preference among players. We were only arguing chops, and whether AC has as many as Joe; which, clearly, he never did.

long lyrical jams can be total, utter, boring bullshit.

So what? That wasn't the point anyone was making. Short, staccato bursts can also be total, utter, boring bullshit. Anything can be.

and one example doesn't prove it.

How many would you like then? I'd be happy to list two dozen, or fifty, if need be. SRV spent his whole career doing the types of fluid jams which AC never could do...and SRV could also do short, staccato bursts, or anything in between.

srv was as much as a phrased player as AC.

Except that he had about a thousand more phrases he could and did use.

AC just did it with more style.

Personal preference. To me, AC was cool, but he couldn't even sniff SRV's guitar strap as a guitarist, in any way. SRV was far funkier, he had infinitely more chops, his tone was worlds better and he had the best vibrato known to man. He was a much better singer too.

It was just no contest.

Lillian Vernon · Post by **Lillian Vernon** » Thu Jan 14, 2010 2:30 am

He was 1000% more entertaining as a performer and wrote a lot of very entertaining, even comedic songs.

And how do you know he "couldn't do it?" Maybe he chose not to because he wasn't a jizzhead.

AC does some more extended runs on a couple of those songs above and I have seen him do it live too. The styles are a bit different between AC and SRV/Bonermassa, but to say AC couldn't even "sniff SRV's guitar strap" is fucking elitism at it's most flagrant.

Shlomart Ben Yisrael · Thu Jan 14, 2010 2:56 am

Lillian Vernon · Post by **Lillian Vernon** » Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:55 am

Martyred wrote:

Fuck, did you go on? I missed it. I thought you did a metal show?

LTS TRN 2 wrote:So..how come no one's focusing on his use of a capo at the seventh fret for apparently every tune he ever played? That's all that counts in any discussion of his chops. He played straight gut bucket, and was given to the gospel sweat down loooong cord sing along, etc. Who asked this question...?

Wow. And I thought maybe there was a chance you were only incoherent when discussing politics.

Van is not impressed by the capo, the bizarre tuning or anything else but his chosen jizzlords.