Tyson. Worst 'best' boxer ever

JayDuck · Post by **JayDuck** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:57 pm

http://www.fandome.com/video/88855/Mike-Tysons-KOs/

Yeah, I bought into the Tyson hype in the 80's like everybody else. Watching this highlight reel of his fights is hilarious now, though. Never fought anybody. Half of these guys are taking a dive and even the ones who aren't, I doubt even worked out more than a few times a week for the fight. A bunch of middle aged men just showing up to fall down and get paid. Not a lick of boxing on display at all.

Too bad Don King fooled him into thinking he was great too. Should have just retired a mystery after his jail term rather than come back and show the world he never actually knew how to fight.

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:12 pm

JayDuck wrote:Never fought anybody.

Solid, solid take dude.

Sin,
Henry Tillman (multiple times), Trevor Burbick, Bonecrusher Smith, Larry Holmes, Michael Spinks, Frank Bruno (multiple times), M2 Williams, Razor Ruddock, Evander Holyfield (multiple times), Lennox Lewis

So, Jay... you wanna keep going, or admit to being a dumbass?

If it's the former, do me a little favor... maybe vcatch a clue, and list which of those opponents held a major belt at some point (I'll give you a hint -- it's most of them).

Was Tyson overrated?

Quite possibly.

Was your statement in support of that claim completely asinine and ignorant?

Most definitely.

Mikey · Post by **Mikey** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:16 pm

Tyson is an animal.

But he could throw a mean fucking punch in his time.

JayDuck · Post by **JayDuck** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:33 pm

Dinsdale wrote:
Sin,
Henry Tillman (multiple times), Trevor Burbick, Bonecrusher Smith, Larry Holmes, Michael Spinks, Frank Bruno (multiple times), M2 Williams, Razor Ruddock, Evander Holyfield (multiple times), Lennox Lewis

Spinks in '88 was nobody
Holmes in '88 was nobody

Did Holmes ever win another fight against anyone except Butterbean? Hs was 40 and done.
Spinks was done as soon as he collected the check from taking the fall against Mike. Never fought again.

He didn't fight Ruddock until the 90's, after he ducked him once to get knocked out by Buster Douglas so really that has nothing to do with "his hype in the 80's" that I was talking about and, as I said, he should have let himself fade off into the distance in prison shortly thereafter. His fights against Holyfiend and Lewis all came after prison and do nothing but illustrate the point I was making.

Van · Post by **Van** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:53 pm

While Cus was still alive Tyson was well on his way to becoming one of the greatest heavyweights ever. He had all the bonafides, inlcuding a decent budding method of defense.

Tyson was well on his way to becoming a bigger, heavier hitting Joe Frazier, with better defensive skills.

Ask Muhammad Ali how much of a nightmare that would've been.

After Cus died though Tyson began to spiral out of control, which can be seen in the timeline of his fights. He slowly began to go away from his earlier defensive techniques and he began to fall in love with throwing isolated bombs rather than the much more effective combos he threw earlier in his career.

He abandoned his hand speed. He had unusual hand speed for a guy with that kind of explosive power.

The guy just plain fell apart, emotionally and then physically.

At his peak though he was a monster and we never got to see how high that peak would've risen. Cus's death and Tyson's gradual descent happened when Tyson was still a very young fighter.

Among other heavyweight champs though I feel comfortable in saying Tyson would've absolutely walked right through Lennox Lewis during Lewis's peak, whenever that might've been. If you want to go through a roll call of heavyweight champs I feel comfortable in saying Tyson at his peak would've also walked through a large number of them, as well.

Tyson underachieved like crazy...because he went crazy.

Shlomart Ben Yisrael · Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:17 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Sin, M2 Williams

The Truth?

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:22 am

Van wrote:He slowly began to go away from his earlier defensive techniques and he began to fall in love with throwing isolated bombs rather than the much more effective combos he threw earlier in his career.

Agreed.

In the early days, he wasas good at the Peekaboo offense/defense as anyone who ever fought (except maybe Leonard). But as you said, he really got away from the "up and under" that Peekaboo was so devastating for. Apparently, Cus was uniquely qualified to teach Peekaboo at the highest levels.

Among other heavyweight champs though I feel comfortable in saying Tyson would've absolutely walked right through Lennox Lewis during Lewis's peak, whenever that might've been.

While you're on opposite sides of the fence, you and Jay have found common ground -- ignorance.

During Lennox' "peak," Tyson avoided him like the motherfucking PLAGUE. Lennox held the "real" belt, and Tyson never got it back. Tyson only ever agreed to fight Lennox after they were both well over-the-hill, and Lennox suffered because of Tyson's dodging of him.

Your argument is silly... Lennox and Tyson are very close in age. After the 84 Olympics, Lennox continued to polish his game and remained am amateur, which got him a nice shiney gold medal for his efforts.

They're about the same age. Tyson was in jail during Lennox "prime." They were quite familiar with each other.

And again, when Tyson staged his comeback (the first, aka "real" one), he knew that there was a hurdle he wasn't going to climb, and he knew that had Lennox gone pro when he did, his legacy was at serious risk. While Lennox didn't quite have Tyson's power, he had plenty of handspeed to counter Tyson, and had sizable advantages in both size and reach, and a faaaarrrrrrrr superior jab, which comes into play in a longer fight.

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:23 am

Martyred wrote:
Dinsdale wrote:
Sin, M2 Williams
The Truth?

Figured someone would get a kick out of that.

Van · Post by **Van** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:32 am

Dins, all that came after Tyson had already begun his decline.

Tyson under Cus? He gladly takes on any and all comers, inlcuding Lennox, and he walks right through Lennox and his glass jaw.

Look what Oliver freaking McCall did to Lewis, when Lewis was at his peak. Tyson, in his prime? He would've knocked the phony British right out of the big Canadian Jamaican.

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:39 am

Van wrote:Look what Oliver freaking McCall did to Lewis, when Lewis was at his peak.

OK.

He knocked him down for six whole seconds, and the fix was in... duh.

He would've knocked the phony British right out of the big Canadian Jamaican.

I didn't realize being born in England made you "phony British."

The fact remains, Tyson probably knew more about his ability than you, and he ducked Lewis every chance he got, since it was a bad matchup for Tyson.

War Wagon · Post by **War Wagon** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:47 am

Van wrote: Tyson was well on his way to becoming a bigger, heavier hitting Joe Frazier...

Put down the crack pipe, Van.

Don't even compare Cicily with smokin' Joe.

Frazier would've thrashed Tyson, at any point during their respective careers, like T1B savages S_M at an MGMT bukkake bonanza.

Wolfman · Post by **Wolfman** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:48 am

I followed boxing from back when I was a kid in the late 1940's, Saw a lot of the greats on TV-- Ezzard Charles, Marciano, Jersey Joe Wolcott and ligther guys like Sugar Ray Robinson, Carmen Basilio-- I agree that Tyson had the goods when he was working under Cus. I really thought he would have been unstoppable--then Cus died and Tyson went to hell in a handbasket.
Here's another guy who did well in his day with Cus giving him the methodology to win (speaking of the peek-a-boo style). Too bad he was really a light-heavyweight; but he did win some great fights.

smackaholic · Post by **smackaholic** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:55 am

My favorite Tyson fight was bonecrusher. Dude had a chin like the rock of gibraltar. Unfortunately, he had little else. Iron mike, at his peak kept teeing off on BC, but, it pretty much didn't faze him a bit.

Then there was Marvis Frazier. Poor Marvis, didn't have quite the chin his old man or BC had. Hell, my granny, who was about 88 at the time, had a better chin than Marvis. If I recall, mike had to hit him just once.

As to his greatness, I think Van nailed it. Tyson was kinda like the human equivalent of South Africa....doin' just fine, so long as some old white dude is in charge. Then Cus checked out and the rest is history.

How would he hold up against a LL in his prime? I don't know, but, I think LL's size and strength might have been a problem for the peekaboo pitbull. LL's chin is about 10 feet in the air. Mike would have needed a step ladder to reach it.

How 'bout old school fighters?

A pre prison Ali would have absolutely raped Mike. Actually, ole casius would have raped pretty damn near anyone for that matter. His blinding speed, good size and boxing skills would have made tyson look silly.

Fraziuh? That would have been a mutherfukking war. A smokin' joe vs young iron mike prolly would have resulted in somebody being dead. I am gonna guess that Joe wins in the end, just on heart alone.

Van · Post by **Van** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 1:12 am

Oliver Dins wrote:the fix was in...

WW, "Cicily" made me laugh. Liked that one.

Yeah, Smokin' Joe might be my all time favorite. He's certainly right up there, along with Hagler, Hearns, a young Roberto Duran and that freak Aaron Pryor.

I'm sure Marciano would've been among my favorites too.

Frazier vs Tyson though, both in their prime? That would've been ridiculous. That would've been epic.

Seeing what Big George did though to the formerly undefeated Frazier, I don't know. I don't know that Frazier could'e managed to stay upright against a young Cicily. Joe's bob and weave with his gloves crossed in front of his face defense, against Tyson's uppercuts and Tyson's power?

Might not've been good.

The whole time I followed Joe I always just wished he was four or five inches taller and about thirty pounds heavier. Same guy, just a bigger version. That guy would've destroyed Ali.

Loved how Joe fought though, but then I always rooted for the fighters over the technicians and I usually never root for the smack talkers in sports.

smackaholic · Post by **smackaholic** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 1:18 am

I hated ali as well. Shit talking is never fresh. That being said, his skills, particularly when he was young, were amazing. You never see another heavyweight with his moves.

Van · Post by **Van** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 1:26 am

smacky, keep in mind one thing about Ali. He rarely "raped" anyone. Besides the real fix wins like his Sonny Liston farces a good number of Ali's wins were simply pretty patty cake decisions.

Ali was a real bitch to beat, granted. Lotta very "average" fighters sure were able to hang in there for the entire fight with the guy though. Ali also received more than his fair share of bullshit decisions and other specious shit which helped him out.

The Joe Bugner deal? Jimmy Young?

His best wins ever were Zaire and Manilla. The first was just bizarre, what with the mysteriously loose ropes and George basically keeling over, more from exhaustion than from much of anything Ali did to him. Manilla was a war but it wasn't like Ali dominated or anything.

Ali impressed me, obviously, but he never really impressed me. Way too much flash and not enough of the type of substance I preferred in fighters.

Sure was difficult to beat though, gotta give him that.

smackaholic · Post by **smackaholic** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 1:44 am

Bugner and Young were late in his career. Jimmy Young definitely whooped his ass. And maybe raped is the wrong word. You are right in that he didn't pummel the shit out of people. He just outboxed them and did what he need to win. So, I guess it would be better to say he would have toyed with mike.

Wolfman · Post by **Wolfman** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:01 am

I see my image of Floyd Patterson vanished. Ali surely had blazing hand speed and reflexes when he was young. We'll never know if he could take a punch, because it never happened. IMHO Marciano would have pummeled the crap out of all of them. Liston tanked for Ali--no doubt in my mind. I saw Mike DeJohn (a slugger with a glass jaw) hit Liston with a bunker buster punch--Liston just shook his head for a second and proceeded to demolish poor Syracuse native Mike.

War Wagon · Post by **War Wagon** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:11 am

Wolfman wrote:Marciano would have pummeled the crap out of all of them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdjblkRkoPU&NR=1

Van · Post by **Van** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:17 am

smacky, I almost forgot Ali's other shining moments...

-The first Henry Cooper fight. Bwaaa.

-The Doug Jones decision.

-The Inoki "fight."

Quickly scanning through the guy's career, man he was in a lot of close fights that went the distance.

Saved by the bell and the "gloves incident" against Cooper. A disputed decision over Jones. Jimmy Young got robbed. Ken Norton got robbed. Chuvalo took him to the limit. Ernie Shavers and Joe Bugner, same deal. Even Chuck freaking Wepner knocked him down and went deep into the 15th with him.

Lotta very average guys, and they weren't all after the layoff either.

The guy was great and like Ted Williams and Bob Feller he definitely lost some of his peak years (though for a decidedly different reason) but the guy just wasn't that dominant at all.

Vitali Klitschko woulda killed him!

(Fedor Emelianenko seriously would've killed him. Ali was damn smart to've limited the rules down to where almost nothing was allowed, when he "fought" Inoki.)

smackaholic · Post by **smackaholic** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:19 am

Wolfman wrote:I see my image of Floyd Patterson vanished. Ali surely had blazing hand speed and reflexes when he was young. We'll never know if he could take a punch, because it never happened. IMHO Marciano would have pummeled the crap out of all of them. Liston tanked for Ali--no doubt in my mind. I saw Mike DeJohn (a slugger with a glass jaw) hit Liston with a bunker buster punch--Liston just shook his head for a second and proceeded to demolish poor Syracuse native Mike.

I'm pretty sure smokin' joe might have landed a punch or two in their 3 fights. Then there was ken norton busting his jaw early in a fight, but him going the distance.

Ali was a pretty boy loudmouth fag, but, he could and did take punches.

smackaholic · Post by **smackaholic** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:22 am

you ain't never met no frank sinatra.

fuck you. and fuck you and fuck you. who next?

Van · Post by **Van** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:43 am

Wolfman wrote:I see my image of Floyd Patterson vanished.

Huh? It's still there.

Ali surely had blazing hand speed and reflexes when he was young. We'll never know if he could take a punch, because it never happened.

Huh?

Joe hit him, hard. Ali was knocked down multiple times in his career. Cooper drilled him. Shavers and Foreman hit him hard. Norton broke his jaw.

Say what you will about Ali but nobody can say he couldn't and didn't take a punch. Ali had a solid chin.

IMHO Marciano would have pummeled the crap out of all of them.

As much as I would've loved to've seen Marciano blow through Ali I really doubt it would've happened. He was just too small for Ali.

It probably would've been a shitty fight. Ali's foot and hand speed would've allowed him to frustrate Marciano all night long. Marciano probably never gets the least bit hurt but it would've been nothing but stalking, stalking and more stalking, eating jabs and Ali's constant gibberish the entire time.

Sure wish we could've seen Marciano against someone other than Ezzard Charles and a thoroughly washed up Joe Louis.

Still, alone among heavyweights in history, Marciano did it. Perfection.

Who knows, maybe he might've cornered Ali eventually and caught him with one of his big left hooks, like Joe did. Maybe. Nobody ever took out Ali with one punch though, and nobody ever pummeled Ali into submission.

The Larry Holmes fight, meh, that was a joke.

Liston tanked for Ali--no doubt in my mind.

Nor mine, especially the second fight.

JayDuck · Post by **JayDuck** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 3:09 am

Really, neither of you guys are arguing against my point. I don't claim that Mike wasn't fast and powerful. He had the tools to be great. And yes, Van, maybe if Cus had stayed alive he would have lived up to his potential. His potential, or even his tools, weren't my point.

But watching his highlight video is a joke. Its a bunch of washed up fighters, and nobodies taking hard shots from a vicious animal, along with a few guys falling down before he even touches them. Mike's ability is not even my argument, its his career. Now, some of it wasn't it fault. The heavyweight division, when he came along was aging, and he was young and powerfull. With the exception of a couple people he ducked, there wasn't much for him to fight out there.

We'll never know how Tyson would have fought against a real big time heavyweight, each in his prime, and its a shame. And maybe he wouldn't have been great, if he still had Cus. But he didn't, and I don't know if he could be in the Top-10 all time, let alone "best ever".

Van · Post by **Van** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 3:19 am

Jay, all I'm saying is consider how an acknowledged all time great like Ali fared against many a can. Many cans went the distance against Ali.

Tyson? A young Tyson faced professionals, legitimate pros who were highly experienced and who'd been in many big time wars...and he reduced them to abject fear. Many of these former bad asses were flat out afraid to fight Mike, and he always confirmed their fears.

There was hardly anything like it, other than maybe early Sonny Liston. Tyson just destroyed veteran fighters, former world champs, to the point that his opponents were beaten before they even entered the ring with him.

Even a huge, tough guy like Bonecrusher, that guy was Boneclutcher when he fought Tyson. He was so terrified of getting killed that all he did was clutch and hold Tyson that entire fight.

It was comical.

That was real. Tyson had that effect on real pros. It wasn't just unrealized potential, either. Tyson did manage to become the youngest heavyweight champ in history and he was killing fuckers left and right. He had a very good run before he fell apart emotionally.

He was utterly dominant, in a way few before him had ever been, and no one since.

With all that being said he's obviously not the best ever. He's in the discussion though for Top 10. Most boxing historians seem to put him in the Top 10.

I just can't put Ali #1 either, which some people just seem to feel the need to do.

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 7:10 pm

Van wrote: (Fedor Emelianenko seriously would've killed him.

Only because of grappling skills, and sure not the fuck because of any standup skills.

What a horrible comparison...

Sorry to go against the MMA grain, but Fedor is a fucking pussy. I've never seen a top-rated fighter in any fighting sport, at any weight, duck fights like Fedor does -- it's shameful.

Last weekend was about his first fight against anyone with even a scrap of game in a couple of years. He's been too busy running from anyone who was any good to actually schedule a fight.

I doubt his motivation is fear -- he's been working on the idea that no one will ever live up to the hype he's gotten. But because of this hype, he makes several million dollars every time he enters the cage. If he steps in against a good fighter and loses, paydays get much smaller. He sandbagged too long waiting for his lottery numbers to come up in the form of U&L Guy Couture, who is wayyyyy over the hill, but both were banking on a huge one-time payday... except Fedor did way too much ducking fights, and Couture ended his Era of Whining by losing... not such a big payday anymore.

Fedor's "performance" in 2007 really soured me on the guy... major fucking pussy. He doesn't have as much confidence in his abilities that his fans do, that's for sure. For the year of 2007, he fought a pro wrassler with little-to-no MMA experience (but it was a popular pop figure in Asia, hence a big payday). His only other fight in 2007 was against U&L Guy Lindland... who has to hit the gym and supplements for weeks to hit 185 on the scale... and ol' Matty (Portland guy, just like Couture... we speak softly and carry a big stick around these parts) gave Fedor every bit he could handle, even though he was giving up 50 pounds.

Unless he could score a quick takedown (he likely could), Fedor could struggle mightily against Cassius. But put both guys in their prime, and I doubt Ali lasts more than a minute against Rickson Gracie (or if we're using the time machine, Carlson Gracie, the greatest fighter of all time in any combat sport, RIP). Fedor isn't anywhere near those guys' class.

But props to Ali -- the Ioki deal was pretty ballsy at the time... didn't work out according to plan, but it was a great idea at the time.

Van · Post by **Van** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 9:38 pm

Dinsdale wrote:
Van wrote: (Fedor Emelianenko seriously would've killed him.)
Only because of grappling skills, and sure not the fuck because of any standup skills.

Obviously. Fedor isn't a boxer.

His stand up skills are still phenomenal though, even though his boxing skills aren't. Despite not being a polished boxer Fedor might be the most effective stand up fighter in MMA...and we all know he's the most successful ground and pounder in the sport. He destroyed both Sylvia and Arlofski standing up, when both those guys were supposed to be far superior in the stand up game.

The fucker hits hard, he's fast and he's uncannily accurate. He ain't pretty with his stand up but he sure is effective.

But no, he couldn't hang with Ali if boxing were all that were allowed.

What a horrible comparison...

It was made purely in jest, following the Ali-Inoki mention.

Obviously Ali would toy with Fedor in a boxing match. Obviously Fedor would destroy Ali in any other type of fight.

Sorry to go against the MMA grain, but Fedor is a fucking pussy.

You should be sorry for saying that. That's flat out stupid.

I've never seen a top-rated fighter in any fighting sport, at any weight, duck fights like Fedor does -- it's shameful.

Link?

The guy has fought more UFC champs than just about anyone and he's rolled right through every one of them.

Last weekend was about his first fight against anyone with even a scrap of game in a couple of years. He's been too busy running from anyone who was any good to actually schedule a fight.

He's been too busy fighting in world championship sambo tournaments and being dicked around with by Dana White. In between all that he managed to destroy former UFC heavyweight champ Tim Sylvia in 36 seconds.

The HMC fight was admittedly bizarre, but financially inevitable, but before HMC he beat former UFC champs Mark Hunt, Mark Coleman and Matt Lindland.

There is no heavyweight worth his time whom he hasn't faced and defeated.

I doubt his motivation is fear --

Well, gee, that's mighty generous of you.

Yeah, I also doubt his motivation was fear. Good call.

he's been working on the idea that no one will ever live up to the hype he's gotten.

He has?

Seems to me and to most people that he couldn't give a flying fuck about things like that. He just fights. He doesn't care about anything else, and he certainly doesn't care about the media's perception of him or the hype surrounding him.

He just fights. Not a lotta pretense with Fedor.

But because of this hype, he makes several million dollars every time he enters the cage.

Because of his resume, not just his hype. In the nascent world of organized, professional MMA he's earned the hype.

If he steps in against a good fighter and loses, paydays get much smaller.

And water is wet. Fortunately for him it hasn't mattered. Bigger guy or smaller guy, he's never legitimately lost in MMA. He's only been threatened once, and marginally at that, by Fujita.

If he hangs around long enough he'll eventually lose. It happens to everyone if they stick around long enough. If and when that should happen he'll accept it and move on.

I'm sure he never expected to be making the money he's making now. I'm sure he finds it quite surprising, and very amusing.

He sandbagged too long waiting for his lottery numbers to come up in the form of U&L Guy Couture,

Randy Couture? Randy is 16-9 in his MMA career. The guy has lost more than a third of his fights. He's gotten destroyed, multiple times, by people who literally wouldn't last two mintues in the ring with Fedor.

Randy Couture, now that's pure, unmitigated hype.

The guy would get ruined by Fedor. Couture would have next to no chance against Fedor, at any point.

who is wayyyyy over the hill,

Even when Randy was still on top of the hill he still lost with seeming regularity. The guy has never sustained a single period of MMA dominance.

He's never even been in the same class of fighter as Fedor.

Are we even talking about the same person? Since you call him Guy Couture is there some MMA fighter named Guy Couture that I'm just missing?

Must be, 'cause you can't seriously be talking about Randy Couture.

Fedor, ducking that guy??

Comedy.

but both were banking on a huge one-time payday... except Fedor did way too much ducking fights, and Couture ended his Era of Whining by losing... not such a big payday anymore.

Yeah, Fedor was ducking Randy even as he was taking out guys in their prime like CroCop, Big Nog (twice), Randleman and everybody available in PRIDE and M1.

Randy twice got killed by useless Chuck Liddell. Randy's biggest win came in a blah decision performance against a guy Fedor destroyed in 36 seconds.

Sylvia himself said Fedor isn't even human and that nobody ever hit that hard. Sylvia had also just been beaten by Couture.

Fedor's "performance" in 2007 really soured me on the guy... major fucking pussy.

Yeah, winning the World Combat Sambo tournament title and the Russian Combat Sambo tournament title in 2007 in between destroying two MMA fighters certainly makes him a major fucking pussy.

You have a problem with Fedor's MMA fight schedule, take it up with Dana White. He's the reason Fedor has mostly stayed away from UFC, even though Fedor has managed to kill every UFC champion placed before him.

Dana wants exclusive rights to Fedor and Dana won't allow Fedor to fight outside Dana's own promotional halo. He won't allow Fedor to fight those World Combat Sambo tournaments.

Fedor ain't about to allow that to happen.

Got a problem with Fedor's scheduling? Take it up with Dana. Fedor isn't about to let Dana control his life.

You of all people ought to respect that.

He doesn't have as much confidence in his abilities that his fans do, that's for sure.

You're absolutely correct and that's a large part of why he is as great as he is. He doesn't buy the hype. He knows he's got flaws. In fact he lost a a sambo fight decision in 2008, his first sambo tournament loss and his first loss of any kind in something like a decade.

He got outpointed by some Bulgarian. He finished the tournament in third.

He knows he has to keep working at getting better. You are absolutely correct.

For the year of 2007, he fought a pro wrassler with little-to-no MMA experience (but it was a popular pop figure in Asia, hence a big payday). His only other fight in 2007 was against U&L Guy Lindland... who has to hit the gym and supplements for weeks to hit 185 on the scale... and ol' Matty (Portland guy, just like Couture... we speak softly and carry a big stick around these parts) gave Fedor every bit he could handle, even though he was giving up 50 pounds.

Again, Fedor also competed in and won two major sambo tournaments in 2007. Combat Sambo is every bit as important to him as the MMA circus.

Again, you of all people should respect that.

Unless he could score a quick takedown (he likely could), Fedor could struggle mightily against Cassius.

Ali would be absolutely defenseless against Fedor in an MMA bout. Fedor would submit Ali inside of one minute and you know this better than most.

After watching Inoki grapple Ali set up that bout with specific rules forbidding grappling and kicking from a standing position. Inoki was forced to spend the entire "fight" on his back, prone, feebly kicking away at a standing Ali.

Let the MMA guy use his full arsenal and Ali is tapping out inside one minute. Ali has no take down defensive skills and no ground skills.

Inside of one minute. Toast. Probably even inside of thirty seconds.

But put both guys in their prime, and I doubt Ali lasts more than a minute against Rickson Gracie (or if we're using the time machine, Carlson Gracie, the greatest fighter of all time in any combat sport, RIP). Fedor isn't anywhere near those guys' class.

Agree about Ali vs any Gracie.

No way of knowing about Fedor vs any Gracie. I do know the sport of MMA has now advanced beyond BJJ. BJJ guys don't get it done anymore in MMA. The most successful MMA guys now combine BJJ with ground and pound, conventional grappling and effective stand up skills.

Even a guy like Vitor Belfort has now become much more of a stand up striker.

Fedor is the one guy in modern MMA who is able to win using any MMA technique. He's won in every fashion imaginable, and he's dominated all but one fight in his career. He still won that fight.

But props to Ali -- the Ioki deal was pretty ballsy at the time... didn't work out according to plan, but it was a great idea at the time.

The idea started off as ballsy, but then Ali neutered it by only agreeing to go through with it if Inoki was forbidden from using any of his grappling skills.

Ali threw precisely six punches during that entire farce, and Inoki spent the entire farce on his back, kicking at Ali's lower legs.

At least Inoki caused Ali physical issues down the road, with lower leg blood clots that were the result of Inoki's constant lower leg kicks.

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 10:04 pm

Van, I'[ve forgotten more about cross training, BJJ, Judo, and freestyle than you'll ever know, and toss professional MMA onto that pile, too.

I can't even respond to your post, since it was one asinine statement after another.

Google has failed you.

You cite Matt Lindland as a major victory for him... idiot. Lindland reenfoprces MY point, not yours, idiot.

Portland Matty is 185 with a brick shoved up his ass. Fedor walks around at 235.

You're dismissed.

Shlomart Ben Yisrael · Wed Jan 28, 2009 10:07 pm

[zy] "Oh yeah...wacka-wacka-wacka...keep talking guys...wacka-wacka...oooohhh...sweaty dudes...wacka-wacka-wacka...[/zy]

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 10:26 pm

Even a guy like Vitor Belfort has now become much more of a stand up striker.

Well gee, according to the guy who gave Vitor his black belt (you know... that one guy I trained with), it was primarily motivated by there being a lot more money in bigtime boxing than there was in MMA, and his handlers thought he had the talent to embark upon a pro boxing career...

But what's their version worth when compared to that of Armchair Vannie?

(The push to become a heavyweight pro boxer in the late 90's is what led to Vitor's demise (amongst other things, including some bad personal stuff), because it started him down the road of steroids, which led to him getting gassed quickly... against Couture).

Fedor is the one guy in modern MMA who is able to win using any MMA technique.

For god's sake, please shut up now.

Sin,
Spider, Rock, et al

He's won in every fashion imaginable, and he's dominated all but one fight in his career. He still won that fight.

Holy fuck!!!

Laughing my ass off over here, TVanO.

When you have to resort to MAKING SHIT UP, it might be time to simmah down now.

Van · Post by **Van** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 10:51 pm

Dins, Lindland is a former UFC champion, which is all I said about him. That, and the fact that Fedor beat him, same as he beat every other UFC champ he's faced.

Fedor has also beaten world class opponents who were significantly larger than himself. You conveniently glossed over that fact, just as you conveniently glossed over every other fact that just destroyed your feeble argument against Fedor.

Yeah, great, you've "forgotten more about BJJ and MMA than I'll ever know." That's the problem. You seem to've forgotten some very salient things. You seem to've forgotten that Randy Couture lost more than one out of every three times he entered an MMA ring. You seem to've forgotten about Dana White and the whole big wide world Fedor lives in outside of Dan White's UFC.

You try to say Fedor did nothing in '07 but beat Lindland and HMC, glossing over the rest of what Fedor did that year.

As a supposedly knowledgeable fan of martial arts it's pretty despicable for you to completely disregard Fedor's world combat sambo (a form of judo) championship tournament victories in '07.

You know better; or at least you should know better, since you claim to be such a fan of so many types of martial arts.

Apparently though that knowledge and that fan-dom of yours only goes as far as love of the Gracies and guys from the U&L.

In the end all the knowledge you trumpet means precisely fuckall if you post stupid things which indicate nothing but a lack of knowledge.

There's the rub. I know you know better. You know Randy Couture (don't know where this "Guy Couture" thing of yours comes from) never would stand a chance against Fedor. You know Fedor doesn't "duck" anybody, least of all a non threat/huge payday like Couture. There's nothing Couture does that Fedor doesn't do better. There's no part of Fedor's game which Couture can match, whether it be toughness, composure, chin, ring smarts, versatility, striking ability, power...etc, etc, etc.

Randy is a grappler. That's it. No way in fuck he beats Fedor on the ground. Ever. He has no other bullets to fire against Fedor and Fedor beats him at his own specialty, a hundred times out of a hundred. Fedor wouldn't even need to use any of his other skills to beat Couture.

He would, because it'd make for a quicker and easier victory, but he wouldn't need to.

So, either apply your vast martial arts knowledge effectively or can it.

Van · Post by **Van** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 11:16 pm

Dinsdale wrote:
Even a guy like Vitor Belfort has now become much more of a stand up striker.

Well gee, according to the guy who gave Vitor his black belt (you know... that one guy I trained with), it was primarily motivated by there being a lot more money in bigtime boxing than there was in MMA, and his handlers thought he had the talent to embark upon a pro boxing career...

Hmmm. Guess your buddy needs to inform you that Vitor is still fighting in MMA. Coulda swore I just watched him knock out Matt Lindland the other night.

He then said on live tv that he plans on dominating that weight class...in MMA.

No mention the other night of returning to pro boxing. He fought precisely one professional boxing match. He's since returned to MMA, where he says he plans to stay.

But what's their version worth when compared to that of Armchair Vannie?

Very little, apparently. My version jibes with Belfort's, because it is Belfort's.

(The push to become a heavyweight pro boxer in the late 90's is what led to Vitor's demise (amongst other things, including some bad personal stuff), because it started him down the road of steroids, which led to him getting gassed quickly... against Couture).

He fought one time as a pro boxer, in 2006. That's it.

He's always been an MMA fighter and that's what he'll continue to be.

Fedor is the one guy in modern MMA who is able to win using any MMA technique.
For god's sake, please shut up now.

Sin,
Spider, Rock, et al

Anderson would be the only guy who's close. His resume still isn't as strong as Fedor's and he still doesn't win in as wide a variety of ways as Fedor but yeah, Silva is a freak too.

He's won in every fashion imaginable, and he's dominated all but one fight in his career. He still won that fight.
Holy fuck!!!

Laughing my ass off over here, TVanO.

When you have to resort to MAKING SHIT UP, it might be time to simmah down now.

Making shit up? Refute it then. Once again, I have the facts on my side. All you have is bluster.

Fedor has one loss in his career, and it was a joke, which you well know. Nobody considers that bullshit "cut" loss to Kohsake (a "loss" Fedor later avenged with a first round TKO) to be legitimate. You don't either.

So, go through the rest of his career and show me where he wasn't dominant.

Fedor claims CroCop gave him his toughest fight, and that one was one of the few Fedor fights that did go the distance. Fedor controlled that fight.

His fights with Big Nog went the distance but he was always in control of those fights.

Fujita briefly had him in trouble, only to see Fedor quickly turn it around with a first round submission.

Randleman had that big slam but still Fedor quickly turned it around and submitted him in the first round.

The vast majority of Fedor's victories never even made it into the second round. So, laughing boy, where do you see examples of when Fedor wasn't dominant?

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 11:50 pm

I suppose I'm good for one more round af swatting flies.

Van wrote: Fedor has also beaten world class opponents who were significantly larger than himself.

If the goalposts don't suit your needs... move them, right?

For all intents and purposes...

Nope.

Those "significantly larger" opponets were in Fedor's weight class, dumbass.

Not sure what that has to do with "Mr. Unstoppable" dropping down 2 fucking weight classes to duck much better suited opponents.

Make no mistake, Lindland is a FUCKING STUD for taking the fight... in which he gave Fedor all he could handle.

You seem to've forgotten about Dana White and the whole big wide world Fedor lives in outside of Dan White's UFC.

More smoke and mirrors from Van.

Who here besides you ever mentioned Dama White?

Whoops, you lose again, dork. I've seen more non-US MMA fights than you could in a month of sundays.

You try to say Fedor did nothing in '07 but beat Lindland

Newsflash, dipshit... I was an exhibition match against a middleweight (that he had no business taking on)... so yes, that counts as "nothing."

and HMC

A guy with a total of 1 previous MMA fight?

Well, color me impressed. I guess he's a big fucking "somebody," eh? He's 1-2, tard.

As a supposedly knowledgeable fan of martial arts it's pretty despicable for you to completely disregard Fedor's world combat sambo (a form of judo) championship tournament victories in '07.

Where to start...

First, I've been around professional fighters.

And get the microphone away from them, and they'll tell you straight up it's about one thing, first and foremost...

$$$$$

Sorry you had to find out this way.

And Fedor is the second biggest whore currently in the sport (after Natural).

So, what do you think pays better? A fight with the Captain (Fedor was rumored to have been offered $5+ million to fight Couture), or the combat sambo championships?

In the end all the knowledge you trumpet means precisely fuckall if you post stupid things which indicate nothing but a lack of knowledge.

Oh... you mean like knowing Sambo is a "form of Judo"?

Can't. Stop. Laughing.

But you should sure stop posting... that was fucking priceless to begin with, but you really went yard on your dome by questioning the knowledge of others after claiming Samco is a "form of Judo." (Maybe to someone with absolutely no fucking clue whatsoever, who just googled up the first layman's definition they could find, in order to save face.)

Let me guess, Vannar... you've never played Judo or Sambo?

Am I right, or am I right?

Yeah, Sambo is kinda like Judo, except that it isn't... much different.

"Guy Couture" thing of yours comes from

It obviously comes from your inability to read. I'm quite certain I said U&L Guy Couture... since I've capatalized "U&L Guy" formany years on these boards.

There's nothing Couture does that Fedor doesn't do better.

Wow... just wow.

The ignorance shines through again.

I could just about crash this server listing things Randy does better.

Van, since I'm glad to see you're back, I'll offer some sincere advice... drop this one. You're wrong on so many levels, it's pathetic.

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 12:13 am

Van wrote:Hmmm. Guess your buddy needs to inform you that Vitor is still fighting in MMA.

Why don't you go ahead and quote whatever it was that made you think anyone said anything otherwise.

He then said on live tv that he plans on dominating that weight class...in MMA.

So, a 20 year old guy had big plans to make cayshe, and after some personal struggles, it didn't work out, so he went back to the job he had success at to support his family?

Wow, that's crazy stuff.

No mention the other night of returning to pro boxing.

Gee, a guy on the wrong side of 30 who had bad luck with a career change isn't going to try it again?

Man, you're full of crazy insight, dude.

He fought precisely one professional boxing match.

Kinda cements that he planned to embark on a pro boxing career, dumbass.

My version jibes with Belfort's, because it is Belfort's.

Befort stated different career goals in 2008 from those he had in 1997?

That's what you're going with?

He fought one time as a pro boxer, in 2006. That's it.

Second try went as well as the first one.

Oh well.

Fedor has one loss in his career, and it was a joke, which you well know. Nobody considers that bullshit "cut" loss to Kohsake

You dismiss a Fedor loss so easily, yet you don't make the same adjustment for Couture's record.

Nice cred.

Van · Post by **Van** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 12:45 am

Couture has frequently gotten submitted, flat out pummeled and KTFO. Fedor's "loss" was on a cut, only moments into the fight, and it was highly disputed as to whether the fight should've even been stopped because of the cut.

Yeah, that compares to just getting the fuck beaten out of him, like Liddell did to Couture.

As for Lindland "giving Fedor all he can handle," well, I guess you and I have different ideas as to what Fedor can and cannot handle.

Fedor submitted Lindland in the first round, in under three minutes. You really don't think much of Fedor if that's all you think he can handle.

As for whether or not Sambo is considered a type of judo, well, argue with Sambo's founders, not me...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sambo_(martial_art)

Dan Vogel · Post by **Dan Vogel** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 2:20 pm

Tyson was exciting and a physical phenomenon when he was young hungry and in focus. I would match him up against any fighter in history for the first two or three years of his career. I have no interest in UFC or whatever you call that. It is savagry. There is no skill in it. And you mark my words that somebody is going to die in one of those fights? Then what? I don't let my kids watch it. Boxing is a different story. There are rules and clear art and skill involved.

I have a miserable life and wish I were dead!

Rack Fu · Post by **Rack Fu** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 3:30 pm

Van, You've been pretty dead on so far. I just have a couple of corrections: 1) Lindland was never the UFC champ and 2) Mark Hunt has never fought in the UFC, let alone been the champ (he was a K-1 champ).

Fedor's lone blemish on his record was the result of an illegal elbow suffered 17 seconds into a fight at a King of Kings tournament in 2000. If it were not a tournament, the other fighter would have been disqualified for the illegal blow and Fedor would have won or it would've been called a no contest. Since it was a tournament, one fighter had to move on and the severity of Fedor's cut prohibited him from being the one to advance. So someone had to lose.

Fedor had a rematch with the guy about 5 years later in a Pride event and damn near killed him.

I can kind of see where Dins is going in his assessment of Fedor (albeit his logic is certainly flawed and uneducated). Fedor is somewhat a victim of his own success. He really does feel above the sport to a certain degree, or at least his handlers think that way. He's obscenely popular in Asia and can dictate the who, what, where, why and hows with the fight promotions over there. Not so much here in North America. Affliction is dumb enough to let him do that in America with their promotion (which will lead to Affliction's inevitable collapse). What Fedor and his handlers need to realize is that the UFC is the only game left in town and he's going to have to eventually play by their rules. Prior to his recent Affliction fights with Sylvia and Arlovski, Fedor was well on his way to tarnishing his image with freak fights or unworthy opponents. His last worthy opponent was Cro Cop in 2005. He's setting himself up to go down the same route again. Assuming his next Affliction match is with Josh Barnett -- there is absolutely no one left in the HW division outside of the UFC for him to fight. He'll be relegated to freak matches in Japan again. Inevitably, he'll have to sign with the UFC. The longer he puts it off, the further he tarnishes his reputation and legacy.

Van · Post by **Van** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 5:01 pm

Or, he'll just keep fighting UFC fighters under terms he can live with.

Fedor isn't about to sign away his career to Dana White. That much is a certainty. The only way he ever signs on with UFC is if Dana gives in to his demands, not the other way around. Dana will have to let him continue to fight outside of UFC. Dana will not have exclusive rights to Fedor's promotions.

Fedor is not like many other UFC fighters. As you say, Fedor doesn't need the UFC's money. He doesn't need the UFC's exposure.

Assuming his next Affliction match is with Josh Barnett -- there is absolutely no one left in the HW division outside of the UFC for him to fight.

Whether or not he beats Josh Barnett there's no heavyweights in the UFC left for him to fight. Who's left? Frank Mir? Big Nog...again?

Brock Lesnar??

If anything, it's the UFC's heavyweight divsion and its legacy that's being tarnished, minus Fedor's inclusion. It's the UFC that keeps propping up people like Tim Sylvia and Randy Couture as their heavyweight champion. It's the UFC that brought in Big Nog to be its champion.

Everybody knows the UFC's heavyweight champion isn't the heavyweight champion, because he hasn't beaten Fedor. Fedor's beaten every heavyweight worth a crap in the UFC, or outside the UFC.

Bottom line, the UFC needs Fedor way more than Fedor needs the UFC.

Once Fedor beats Barnett we all know who the media will eventually be clamoring for as Fedor's next big test: Anderson Silva. That's a lose-lose fight for Fedor. Either he loses the fight or he gets no credit for beating a smaller man.

Unless Arlofski turns pro full time as a boxer the rematch with Fedor will likely be coming soon. Maybe If Randleman can keep his shit together there might be some clamoring for a Randleman-Fedor rematch.

This is a heavyweight division problem, not a Fedor/UFC problem. This is why Fedor will never agree to sign away his rights to fight outside the UFC. Among other things Fedor will never agree to sign away his rights to compete in sambo world championships. Fedor will never agree to sign away his right to fight in Japan.

Why should he? There are no heavyweights in the UFC to challenge him. The only money that will be made from a Fedor/UFC heavyweight opponent match up will be made because Fedor is on the card. Fedor carries that box office draw wherever he goes. He doesn't need the UFC to receive a huge paycheck and he certainly can't rely on the UFC to provide him with quality opponents. The best they can offer now in terms of a marketable fighter is Brock Lesnar and we all know that if and when Fedor destroys Lesnar everyone will just denigrate Fedor for beating an all hype-no game WWE wrestler.

Goober McTuber · Post by **Goober McTuber** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 5:09 pm

Too bad we don't have an MMA forum.

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 6:36 pm

Van wrote:As for whether or not Sambo is considered a type of judo, well, argue with Sambo's founders, not me...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sambo_(martial_art)

Why don't you quote where that article says Sambo is a "form of Judo"? I'll leave the light on for you.

Van, save it for someone else. Try as you may... I've played Judo, bro. It was kinda my deal for a while (seems like a different lifetime, though). I've sat in and caught the Sambo basics.

Is Greco-Roman Wrestling a "form of Judo"?

Now, if you had said something accurate, like for instance "Sambo is similar to Judo," you'd be correct. To call it "a form of Judo," means your wiki-ing has failed you, because it certainly isn't.

Ever seen a Sambo match, Van? Been to one?

That's what I thought.

Next time you walk into a Kodokan dojo, why don't you throw them wrasslin' shoes on and start dropping leg locks... and see what happens.

Since you might actually be interested in learning something someday, instead of trying to teach people who know wayyyyyy more about this shit than you do:

Sambo's origins lie in combat training. The philosophy Visali, or whatever the hell his name was, his philosophy was strictly in taking the combat sports (he had a background in Japanese sports, for certain), and tailoring them for the battlefield. The idea was if forced into unarmed combat (little more likely scenario in the post-WW1 are), the ideal outcome was A) To survive, and B) To bust someone's knee. A man with a broken leg requires a fellow soldier to put away his gun and help him off the battlefield.

If you compare this to The Gentle Way, the basic philosophies are in stark contrast, as are the strategies.

Fu -- while I may be Going All Dinsdale up in this bitch... you pretty much just made my point.

At no point here did I ever say Fedor wasn't the best heavyweight out there... he is.

But he ain't fought anybody in a looooong time. Ergo, he's been "ducking opponents." Can't say I blame him for not wanting to get involved with I'm Bigger Than The Sport White, but he's been ducking fights, regardless of his motivation for doing so.

S'all's I was saying. But since I said it, Van The Contrarian had to chime in with the armchair analysis.

He's one of those guys who watches a UFC, and says "That guy sucks!!! He soooooo had an armbar right there!!!!" Of course, if anyone in the room with him actually knew anything, they'd tell him "Uhm, actually, his shrimp was very weak, and he had no hip positioning to have any business trying to sink one there, and it was very wise to get his hips back under him"... because the armchair fighters are usually pretty good for a laugh.