The Mitchell Report

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:35 pm

You're trying to oversimplify things.

Do I think Clemens juicing affected his stats?

Duh.

When comparing him to Ryan, there's so much more to the story than you're trying to make it, you need to slow down, bud.

At 42, Clemens had to deal with Poohole, and... nobody. A bunch of Brewers. A bunch of underachieving Cubs. Most of the best NL Central hitters were on his team.

Contrast that to the AL West of 1989.

Apples and Intels. A whole lot more to the story than your gross oversimplification.

Jack · Post by **Jack** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:03 pm

Could Dan Duquett's comment about "twilight of his career" have pushed Roger to start using roids?

Notoriously, Red Sox general manager Dan Duquette said Clemens was in the "twilight of his career" following four consecutive seasons, 1993-96, in which the pitcher was a mediocre 40-39 with few of the eye-popping statistics that had become his norm. The Red Sox opted not to re-sign him following the 1996 season. However, the full quote from which "twilight" is excerpted was not entirely negative, and also referred to Red Sox management's stated hope that Clemens would spend his entire career with Boston. .

Clemens signed with the Toronto Blue Jays after the 1996 season, and won the Cy Young Award in both his seasons with the Blue Jays, also winning the pitching Triple Crown twice. Some consider Clemens's tenure with the Blue Jays as his best individual seasons of his career, despite the lackluster records the Blue Jays had as a team.

__________

I don't have an hostility toward MLB players for juicing. If I was offered $10 Million, I would stick the needle in my ass. For $100 Million,......

Yes, it is wrong and it has ruined baseball for a while. But, baseball is only a game. There are much more important and serious things to worry about!

BSmack · Post by **BSmack** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:05 pm

Dinsdale wrote:You're trying to oversimplify things.

Do I think Clemens juicing affected his stats?

Duh.

When comparing him to Ryan, there's so much more to the story than you're trying to make it, you need to slow down, bud.

At 42, Clemens had to deal with Poohole, and... nobody. A bunch of Brewers. A bunch of underachieving Cubs. Most of the best NL Central hitters were on his team.

Contrast that to the AL West of 1989. Apples and Intels. A whole lot more to the story than your gross oversimplification.

Clemens ERA in 2005 outpaced the next lowest ERA in the NATIONAL LEAGUE by a half a point.

What about that don't you understand?

RumpleForeskin · Post by **RumpleForeskin** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:15 pm

New list doesn't show Bagwell to be on it. I guess he got his money in before the deadline.

Cueball · Post by **Cueball** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:25 pm

jiminphilly wrote:The list:

Brady Anderson, Manny Alexander, Rick Ankiel, Jeff Bagwell, Barry Bonds, Aaron Boone, Rafaeil Bettancourt, Bret Boone, Milton Bradley, David Bell, Dante Bichette, Albert Belle, Paul Byrd, Wil Cordero, Ken Caminiti, Mike Cameron, Ramon Castro, Jose and Ozzie Canseco, Roger Clemens, Paxton Crawford, Wilson Delgado, Lenny Dykstra, Johnny Damon, Carl Everett, Kyle Farnsoworth, Ryan Franklin, Troy Glaus, Rich Garces, Jason Grimsley, Troy Glaus, Juan Gonzalez, Eric Gagne, Nomar Garciaparra, Jason Giambi, Jeremy Giambi, Jose Guillen, Jay Gibbons, Juan Gonzalez, Clay Hensley, Jerry Hairston, Felix Heredia, Jr., Darren Holmes, Wally Joyner, Darryl Kile, Matt Lawton, Raul Mondesi, Mark McGwire, Guillermo Mota, Robert Machado, Damian Moss, Abraham Nunez, Trot Nixon, Jose Offerman, Andy Pettitte,Mark Prior, Neifi Perez, Rafael Palmiero, Albert Pujols, Brian Roberts, Juan Rincon, John Rocker, Pudge Rodriguez, Sammy Sosa, Scott Schoenweiis, David Segui, Alex Sanchez, Gary Sheffield, Miguel Tejada, Julian Tavarez,Fernando Tatis, Maurice Vaughn, IJason Varitek, Ismael Valdez, Matt Williams and Kerry Wood.

"THE LIST" is incorrect. The report was not officially made public until the 2:00 presser. There where names reported that ARE NOT on THE LIST. How many? I don't know, haven't read the full report for myself, but listening to talk radio on my crawl home, say that Damon, Garciaparra, Tarvarez and Varitek were said to have been on THE LIST as reported by WNBC but are not in the Mitchell Report.

jiminphilly · Post by **jiminphilly** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:33 pm

Cueball wrote:
jiminphilly wrote:The list:

Brady Anderson, Manny Alexander, Rick Ankiel, Jeff Bagwell, Barry Bonds, Aaron Boone, Rafaeil Bettancourt, Bret Boone, Milton Bradley, David Bell, Dante Bichette, Albert Belle, Paul Byrd, Wil Cordero, Ken Caminiti, Mike Cameron, Ramon Castro, Jose and Ozzie Canseco, Roger Clemens, Paxton Crawford, Wilson Delgado, Lenny Dykstra, Johnny Damon, Carl Everett, Kyle Farnsoworth, Ryan Franklin, Troy Glaus, Rich Garces, Jason Grimsley,Glaus, Juan Gonzalez, Eric Gagne, Nomar Garciaparra, Jason Giambi, Jeremy Giambi, Jose Guillen, Jay Gibbons, Juan Gonzalez, Clay Hensley, Jerry Hairston, Felix Heredia, Jr., Darren Holmes, Wally Joyner, Darryl Kile, Matt Lawton, Raul Mondesi, Mark McGwire, Guillermo Mota, Robert Machado, Damian Moss, Abraham Nunez, Trot Nixon, Jose Offerman, Andy Pettitte,Mark Prior, Neifi Perez, Rafael Palmiero, Albert Pujols, Brian Roberts, Juan Rincon, John Rocker, Pudge Rodriguez, Sammy Sosa, Scott Schoenweiis, David Segui, Alex Sanchez, Gary Sheffield, Miguel Tejada, Julian Tavarez,Fernando Tatis, Maurice Vaughn, IJason Varitek, Ismael Valdez, Matt Williams and Kerry Wood.
"THE LIST" is incorrect. The report was not officially made public until the 2:00 presser. There where names reported that ARE NOT on THE LIST. How many? I don't know, haven't read the full report for myself, but listening to talk radio on my crawl home, say that Damon, Garciaparra, Tarvarez and Varitek were said to have been on THE LIST as reported by WNBC but are not in the Mitchell Report.

The list is a clear leak with a few names added.. to me, this is a mere sample of the amount of players that are actually juicing. Considering Nomar's injury problems, I might question whether whether he was clean or not.

Cueball · Post by **Cueball** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:02 pm

F.P. Santangelo?
Say it so Santangelo

atomicdad · Post by **atomicdad** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:25 pm

What's up Mod's? I thought this thread was about the Mitchell report, not another Dins v world pissing match. Isn't there enough of Din's crap littered around the rest of this board?

Adelpiero · Post by **Adelpiero** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:26 pm

duncedale

Pujols is on NO list, but keep trying. That first list that MSNBC had was incorrect, and they pulled it after being notified by MLB and the Senator that they had incorrect names on their list.

Did Pujols do HGH? Probably, but dont even try to tell me Manram and big fatty and 3/4 of the Latin players arent also HGH'rs.

Everyone canseco named has been 100% correct.

Adelpiero · Post by **Adelpiero** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:36 pm

the thing about clemens

Nolan ryan worked his ass off during the off season, his season didnt end when Rangers were 27 games out, he made sure he was always in top shape, worked out, ran, etc.

Clemens would take the offseason off, chow the cheeseburgers, dick with the kids, then out of nowhere be ready in 1 month, and it top shape! Roids didnt make him a better pitcher, it just helped him rekindle his form from his 20's. He was the obvious roider and had been called out many times by media, but noone could get the smoking gun, finally they got it!

Cicero · Post by **Cicero** » Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:48 am

Yep, Pujols wasnt in the Mitchell Report.

Jack · Post by **Jack** » Fri Dec 14, 2007 9:53 pm

The Official Mitchell Report

*****

According to ABC, this is the list of The 86 names
(people into numbers will note the pun 86)

86 is a common term uttered in bars and restaurants. It means the supply of an item is exhausted, as in "Tell the customer to order another appetizer. The soup du jour is 86'd. We're out." It is used to cut customers off as well, as in "Don't serve Drunk Guy over there anymore, he's 86'd." It can go as far as meaning to eject or debar from the premises, as in "Johnny's 86'd. Every time he comes in here he starts a fight, so he is no longer welcome." The term is used often, yet not everyone knows where it came from.

MLB's 86d players...

Marvin Bernard
Barry Bonds
Bobby Estalella
Jason Giambi
Jeremy Giambi
Benito Santiago
Gary Sheffield
Randy Velarde
Lenny Dykstra
David Segui
Larry Bigbie
Brian Roberts
Jack Cust
Tim Laker
Josias Manzanillo
Todd Hundley
Mark Carreon
Hal Morris
Matt Franco
Rondell White
Roger Clemens
Andy Pettitte
Chuck Knoblauch
Jason Grimsley
Gregg Zaun
David Justice
F.P. Santangelo
Glenallen Hill
Mo Vaughn
Denny Neagle
Ron Villone
Ryan Franklin
Chris Donnels
Todd Williams
Phil Hiatt
Todd Pratt
Kevin Young
Mike Lansing
Cody McKay
Kent Mercker
Adam Piatt
Miguel Tejada
Jason Christiansen
Mike Stanton
Stephen Randolph
Jerry Hairston, Jr.
Paul Lo Duca
Bart Miadich
Fernando Vina
Kevin Brown
Eric Gagne
Mike Bell

*****

Do you think steroids have also hurt a player's career?

Maybe steroids contributed to Knoblauch errors such as hitting Keith Olbermann's mom?
or contributed to the deaths of Daryl Kile, Joe Kennedy, etc...

******
86

smackaholic · Post by **smackaholic** » Sat Dec 15, 2007 2:19 pm

Got just a few questions.

What is mitchell's area of expertise other than being another pos politician?

Is he a doctor?

Does he have some sort of investigative background?

Is he affiliated to any team in mlb?

Don't know about the first 2, but, on the last question, the answer is HELL YES!!!!!

He sits on the board of the sox. Yeah, those sox, the ones with NOBODY ON THE FUKKING LIST!!!!!!!

Standby for this thing to get ugly. I hope Mitchell is sued for every fukking penny he has in libel charges.

How can this pompous fukking piece of shit drop all these names without them having any sort of due process. He says in his report, yup, these dudes juiced. Oh, btw. We aren't going to do anything about past violations. Just wanted to drop their names.

Fukk him.

If you got suspicions about somebody, take them to court and charge them with something. If you aren't gonna do that, feel free to STFU.

His report should have basically said, yeah, we know you fukks have been juicing, but, it ain't worth dragging half the league through court. So stop it or else.

But no. This has been pos hack wanted more spotlight than that, so he drops a bunch of names.

Who was the fukking mensa that decided some ex political hack with formal connections to a team, should run this sham of an investigation.

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Sat Dec 15, 2007 5:13 pm

smackaholic wrote: Who was the fukking mensa that decided some ex political hack with formal connections to a team, should run this sham of an investigation.

Selig.

I can't believe Selig would do something that brings into question the integrity of the guy doing the investigation, like having it be someone who's affiliated with a certain team.

I mean, Bud "Radical Realignment" Selig wouldn't do something like that, would he?

Don't know if anyone caught the Colin Cowherd show yesterday, but David Justice called in out of the blue... and boy, is he fucking pissed. Says he never touched one performance-enhancer in his life, and ended up on "The List" because he agreed to testify. Pretty much claims Mitchell pulled a bait-and-switch on him. Also claims he has an irrational phobia of needles, so any talk of him juicing is a non-starter.

Justice was kinda funny, too. Something about how iut's claimed he sought HGH before the 2001 season. He wasw quick to point out that from 2000 to 2001, he went from the best year of his career to his worst. And said something like "Yeah, that's just my luck -- I'd find the one guy that would get me in trouble by talking to, and I'd be that one guy who got the bad batch."

But Justice also said he'd already talked to lawyers about suing the parties responsible for sullying his name, and was told it would cost more than he'd likely get, even if he won. And without an MLB income anymore, he didn't think it was worth it to take a half million dollar hit to convince the two fans out there who might change their minds about him if he won a judgement.

smackaholic · Post by **smackaholic** » Sat Dec 15, 2007 6:30 pm

Dave may not have the coin to fight this, but guys like Clemens do. I hope they go after that old fukking hack and selig with a vengeance.

Fukk mitchell and selig.

It would be nice to see fans stay home in droves, but, unfortunately we are a country full of lemmings that will stand in line for the right to buy a 50 dollar bleacher seat so they can sit there and drink a 9 dollar flat budweiser out of a plastic cup.

I will continue to half way follow the sport and watch a few playoff games, but, it will be a cold day in hell before I drop a dime to go watch in person.

Jack · Post by **Jack** » Sat Dec 15, 2007 9:00 pm

With all of the names outed in The Mitchell Report, Barry Bonds has to get some credit for not "ratting out" his friends.
You have to figure that he was given the opportunity to many times.

I understand that the Soccer Moms in this forum would say " It's not ratting out when you are helping people in danger", but He took all the shots for years and never publicly (or privately as far as I know) ratted out other ball players.

Barry is no Eric Mangini!!

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Sun Dec 16, 2007 4:22 pm

Jack wrote:With all of the names outed in The Mitchell Report, Barry Bonds has to get some credit for not "ratting out" his friends.

Dude -- he was the target of a federal criminal investigation at the time.

His silence had nothing to do with some sense of loyalty.

I feel bad for Chief Justice, though. He didn't just make "The List," his name is being cited as one of the headliners.

Except... granted, I haven't read the report, only excerpts... but it's my understanding that nowhere in the report does anyone claim he actually used any of the performance-enhancers. MacNamee claims they "had a conversation about it," which Justice claims ended in a "no thanks." MacNamee claims Justice said he had already spoken to Radomski about it, which Justice claims is an outright falsehood.

While I'm thinking that most of The List are guilty, and plenty who weren't on The List are too, one has to bear in mind the only evidence against most of them is the testimony of two guys who were under duress, and who had great incentive to keep the stories rolling out, true or not.

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Sun Dec 16, 2007 4:36 pm

BTW -- the mods need to lock this thread.

After all, George W Bush wants us to move on and quit dwelling on it.

Oh, wait...

He was complicit in the Steroid Era, and his **wink wink nudge nudge** to the worst of the worst offenders probably helped get the ball rolling completely out of control. He was well aware that his multiple-future-MVPs were all doing it.