another liberal scumbag cautions against global warming

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another liberal scumbag cautions against global warming

Post by Justa Heel »

Today, another liberal scumbag - WHOOPS- I mean NEWT GINGRICH :lol: - cautions against global warming as he breaks ranks with the cons. At least for now.

:lol:

link below contains video footage of the dialogue with Kerry.
_______________
http://tinyurl.com/2o4o5p


Kerry Forces Gingrich To Admit Inhofe Is Off-Base On Global Warming Science

Sen. John Kerry (D-MA) and former House Speaker Newt Gingrich (R-GA) engaged in head-to-head debate this morning on global warming. During the event, Kerry challenged Gingrich on his commitment to global warming science, asking him what his message would be to conservatives like Sen. James Inhofe (R-OK) who are “resisting the science.”

Gingrich distanced himself from Inhofe, saying:
My message I think is that the evidence is sufficient that we should move towards the most effective possible steps to reduce carbon-loading of the atmosphere.
Via CNN Pipeline:

Gingrich went on to say that acknowledging the scientific consensus around climate change “is a very challenging thing to do if you’re a conservative” because they associate environmentalism with “bigger government and higher taxes.” Another possible explanation? Global warming skeptics find it lucrative and rewarding to side with the deep pockets of the oil lobby.

Gingrich concludes by arguing it is time for “green conservatism.”

Transcript:
KERRY: I’m excited to hear you talk about the urgency — I really am. And given that — albeit you still sort of have a different approach — what would you say to Sen. Inhofe and to others in the Senate who are resisting even the science? What’s your message to them here today?

GINGRICH: My message I think is that the evidence is sufficient that we should move towards the most effective possible steps to reduce carbon-loading of the atmosphere.

KERRY: And to it urgently — and now…

GINGRICH: And do it urgently. Yes.

If I can, let me explain partly why this is a very challenging thing to do if you’re a conservative. For most of the last 30 years, the environment has been a powerful emotional tool for bigger government and higher taxes. And therefore, if you’re a conservative, the minute you start hearing these arguments, you know what’s coming next: which is bigger government and higher taxes.

So even though it may be the right thing to do, you end up fighting it
(ed: Naaah really? :lol:) because you don’t want big government and higher taxes. And so you end up in these kinds of cycles. And part of the reason I was delighted to accept this invitation and I’m delighted to be here with Sen. Kerry is I think there has to be a if you will a “green conservatism” — there has to be a willingness to stand up and say alright here’s the right way to solve these as seen by our value system.
Filed under: Global Warming

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Post by Cuda »

Newt?

Isn't that a kind of a lizard?
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Post by Bizzarofelice »

Even though Newt is a cold-ass motherfucker, at least he's eloquent enough to dance around any spin.

By contrast, its good to see Tom DeLay's new book got the lack of response it deserved.
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Post by Mike the Lab Rat »

mvscal wrote:I'm sure you'll find the answer to this seeming contradiction in Newt's investment portfolio.
Just curious, since I don't have the time or energy to do a google search....couldja be more specific? Not looking for a debate, I just want to know what you're talking about.
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Post by PSUFAN »

Fun article about DeLay's "book"

http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dean/20070406.html
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Post by Mikey »

mvscal wrote: On one side is "cap and trade" con whereby government regulators set a cap on emissions and then well, pretty much anyone can buy and sell emmission credits with the expectation that everything will eventually level out. This scheme has had mixed results. It appears to have worked to reduce sulfur dioxide emmissions in the US, though it isn't clear if it was the result of C&T or new, cleaner technology coming on line. In Europe, the attempt to reduce CO2 was a predictable and almost comical failure.
The C&T system for SOx has worked well in the US. That new and cleaner technologies have come on line is one of the results of the system making it more economical to reduce emissions than to purchase credits on the market.

The system failed miserably in Europe because they set the caps at levels at or above what industry was already producing, and gave those credits to the facilities that were producing them. When this became apparent, there was little or no demand for the credits and they became essentially worthless.


And BTW, Gore was an idiot to make that statement, and just as stupid to exaggerate any claims in his show. But that in itself does not in any way invalidate all of the legitimate scientific research.
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Post by Justa Heel »

Mikey wrote: And BTW, Gore was an idiot to make that statement, and just as stupid to exaggerate any claims in his show. But that in itself does not in any way invalidate all of the legitimate scientific research.
But what about all the scientific peer-reviewed articles out there discrediting GW?

Oh wait there aren't any.
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Post by titlover »

Justa Heel wrote:
Mikey wrote: And BTW, Gore was an idiot to make that statement, and just as stupid to exaggerate any claims in his show. But that in itself does not in any way invalidate all of the legitimate scientific research.
But what about all the scientific peer-reviewed articles out there discrediting GW?

Oh wait there aren't any.
but what about all the respected climatologists who say Gore's fantasies are just that, fantasies?


oh wait, theres thousands.

shut you credulous suck.
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Post by Justa Heel »

mvscal wrote:How do you disprove a negative?

Oh wait, you don't.
Shit really? That must be why we never saw any peer-reviewed articles on how asbestos wasn't harmful or how cigarettes don't cause cancer, even though they were each wildly popular (corporate) ideas in their own times. :lol:

Damn, maybe they were still right and I can snort that bag of asbestos I've been saving all these years.
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Post by Justa Heel »

titlover wrote:
Justa Heel wrote:
Mikey wrote: And BTW, Gore was an idiot to make that statement, and just as stupid to exaggerate any claims in his show. But that in itself does not in any way invalidate all of the legitimate scientific research.
But what about all the scientific peer-reviewed articles out there discrediting GW?

Oh wait there aren't any.
but what about all the respected climatologists who say Gore's fantasies are just that, fantasies?


oh wait, theres thousands.
Super! They should have a lot to talk about! .... and that peer-reviewed scientific article should be coming around in no time.

BTW --
shut you credulous suck.
Get a hold of yourself, man.
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Post by Tom In VA »

How are you earning your carbon credits Justa Heel ?

Don't you think you'd go dark and green for the environment if you really cared ? Unplug the PC, turn the lights off and light a candle.

Write letters.

PLEASSSSEEEEE

You're Killing ME

Sincerely
The Earth
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Post by Justa Heel »

Tom In VA wrote:How are you earning your carbon credits Justa Heel ?

Don't you think you'd go dark and green for the environment if you really cared ? Unplug the PC, turn the lights off and light a candle.

Write letters.

PLEASSSSEEEEE

You're Killing ME

Sincerely
The Earth
All-or-nothing propositions like this are for the simple-minded.... Of course I know you weren't serious, Tom.

Titlover doesn't, though.
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Post by Mikey »

titlover wrote:
but what about all the respected climatologists who say Gore's fantasies are just that, fantasies?


oh wait, theres thousands.
Which ones?
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Post by Tom In VA »

Justa Heel,

I think conscientious conservation is ... conservative and prudent.

I also think I'm being lied to among two parties who seek power and control. Follow the money on both sides.

Newt jumping ship doesn't necessarily take or add efficacy to the "sky is falling" mentality.

I'm still waiting for the open debate amongst scientists, put it lay man's terms now, and outlining what working class schmuck can do to help.

But it does piss me off to see these hollywood types and Al Gores who soak in energy consumption and are gluttons for energy castigate people who drive a jeep or a 4WD vehicle.
With all the horseshit around here, you'd think there'd be a pony somewhere.
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Post by Justa Heel »

Tom In VA wrote: I also think I'm being lied to among two parties who seek power and control. Follow the money on both sides.
Socially responsible Corporate America vs. all those damn money-grubbing scientists

Seriously. Did all these supposed agenda-driven scientists get these super narrow specialized science degrees in "global warming", such that they're completely jobless if for some reason global warming was disproven? They don't have the ability to get funding to study something else? (alternative engergy sources?)

I don't get it. Honestly.
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Post by Tom In VA »

Justa Heel wrote:
Tom In VA wrote: I also think I'm being lied to among two parties who seek power and control. Follow the money on both sides.
Socially responsible Corporate America vs. all those damn money-grubbing scientists


I don't get it. Honestly.
Of course you don't. I can sort of kind of get a feel for who is lobbying whom and for what. Environmentally themed contractors were all the rage during the Clinton Administration here inside the beltway. Republicans win the exec. branch and all of sudden those same contractors needed to adapt and swtich to a more "security" based business or ... not but then fall of the teat of the big whale.

Repubs - Big Gubmint for Defense
Dems - Big Gubmint for Environment and Social Programs.

It all equals Big Gubmint.


And a paycheck, as long as they need IT support. So it makes no difference to me. :P
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Post by Justa Heel »

mvscal wrote:
Justa Heel wrote:I don't get it. Honestly.
Story of your life. Face it you're an idiot and this subject is far too complex for you to ever hope to understand.
When those peer-reviewed articles coming in?

BTW- which Ph.D. Science program accepted you with just a GED?
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Post by Mike the Lab Rat »

mvscal wrote:Rather than a "documentary", 'An Inconvient Truth' is a product marketing video.
A video that his company is distributing for free to classrooms across the world, including right here in the US of A. I belong to two bio teacher listservs and the teachers posting on them were agog at the prospect of getting free copies of this DVD to show their students. Picture it - millions of schoolkids being forced to watch the video and then complete quizzes, essays, and projects based on the material they were presented by Gore. It's now part of many schools' curricula. (Not mine - haven't had time to preview the DVD and analyze it, and I'm sure as hell not gonna force it on kids without checking it out first).

Gotta give it to Al...he knows how to sneak his ideas to the masses.
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Post by BSmack »

mvscal wrote:Meanwhile Al Gore is cleverly triangulating between the two and stands to make a staggering profit should any of this absurd nonsense catch on. In the meantime, he will continue to lie, bang his drum and generate the level of hysteria needed to bring these scams to fruition.
As opposed to the billions in profits netted by the oil industry in just the past 6 years?

Or is it only OK for those who burn fossil fuels to make a profit?
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Post by battery chucka' one »

Why are we discussing global warming in a political forum? Why are you bent on trying to politicize this issue? I mean, just because Al Gore has four homes is absolutely no reason to mention that he's a hypocrite in this forum. That whole carbon offset balderdash perpetrated by public figures from coast to coast is absolutely not an issue which should be discussed in The Spin Zone. Just sayin'.
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Post by Justa Heel »

battery chucka' one wrote:Why are we discussing global warming in a political forum? Why are you bent on trying to politicize this issue? I mean, just because Al Gore has four homes is absolutely no reason to mention that he's a hypocrite in this forum. That whole carbon offset balderdash perpetrated by public figures from coast to coast is absolutely not an issue which should be discussed in The Spin Zone. Just sayin'.
Re-read the first post, numbnuts.

The one with the quotes from Newt Gingrich explaining why cons feel compelled to politicize environmental issues and to disregard the science.
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Post by Justa Heel »

And I'll continue to get my science from scientists as opposed to some sheep parroting predictable right-wing propaganda.
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Post by Dinsdale »

Justa Heel wrote:And I'll continue to get my science from scientists as opposed to some sheep parroting predictable right-wing propaganda.

I'm in the same boat.


BUT...


Where's this scientific evidence?

I see lots of jawing on the subject. I see scientists give opinions(usually presented as fact). I see scientists write summaries.


So...why are they so afraid to share data?

Where's the NUMBERS?

None of this stuff is ever presented as numeric data...which seems like a strange omission for people who claim to be scientists...usually, they brag about their numeric data.


Now, I realize that most of you have about as difficult a time with numbers and data as you do with "there, their, and they're," or remembering which side of the quotation marks the periods and commas go on, but...


Some of us can make at least some basic sense out of numeric data. While my initial tendency is to believe that converting the earth's crust to heat as quickly as humanly possible could certainly have an æffect on global temperature, I find it borderline-shocking how little actual data is being presented, rather than the "because I said so" argument.


I'm sure Mr. Gore can cite the raw data off the top of his head, though.
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Post by battery chucka' one »

Justaheel, too bad you can't discuss this topic without politics.

For those who enjoy logical discussion:

Oregon Petition

There's some scientific opinion for the argument. I'm thinking of ya', Dinsdale.

btw, I have a good friend who holds a masters degree in meteorology. He knows what he speaks about with regards to climate and such. He says the warming is cyclical and that man's involvement is minimal. I have another friend whose brother is pursuing a degree in meteorology. His brother also says cyclical. I have another friend who is also closely tied to study of climates. I have yet to ask him his feelings on global warming.

My opinion is that it is cyclical. Still, crap being spewed into the atmosphere is a bad thing. I can't support the Kyoto Protocol because I don't consider China and India to be 'developing' countries. Peace.
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Post by Justa Heel »

battery chucka' one wrote:Justaheel, too bad you can't discuss this topic without politics
Sure I can. But this thread happened to be about Newt Gingrich. Sorry if that's too much for you to understand.
but, since you insist.

Oregon Petition
Cool link.
The term "scientists" is often used in describing signatories. The petition requests signatories list their degree (B.S., M.S., or Ph.D.) and to list their scientific field.[2] The distribution of petitions was relatively uncontrolled: those receiving the petition could check a line that said "send more petition cards for me to distribute".



In 2005, Scientific American reported:

“ Scientific American took a sample of 30 of the 1,400 signatories claiming to hold a Ph.D. in a climate-related science. Of the 26 we were able to identify in various databases, 11 said they still agreed with the petition —- one was an active climate researcher, two others had relevant expertise, and eight signed based on an informal evaluation. Six said they would not sign the petition today, three did not remember any such petition, one had died, and five did not answer repeated messages. Crudely extrapolating, the petition supporters include a core of about 200 climate researchers – a respectable number, though rather a small fraction of the climatological community.[10] ”

In a 2005 op-ed in the Hawaii Reporter, Todd Shelly wrote:

“ In less than 10 minutes of casual scanning, I found duplicate names (Did two Joe R. Eaglemans and two David Tompkins sign the petition, or were some individuals counted twice?), single names without even an initial (Biolchini), corporate names (Graybeal & Sayre, Inc. How does a business sign a petition?), and an apparently phony single name (Redwine, Ph.D.). These examples underscore a major weakness of the list: there is no way to check the authenticity of the names. Names are given, but no identifying information (e.g., institutional affiliation) is provided. Why the lack of transparency?[11] ”

In May 1998 the Seattle Times wrote:

“ Several environmental groups questioned dozens of the names: "Perry S. Mason" (the fictitious lawyer?), "Michael J. Fox" (the actor?), "Robert C. Byrd" (the senator?), "John C. Grisham" (the lawyer-author?). And then there's the Spice Girl, a k a. Geraldine Halliwell: The petition listed "Dr. Geri Halliwell" and "Dr. Halliwell."
Asked about the pop singer, Robinson said he was duped. The returned petition, one of thousands of mailings he sent out, identified her as having a degree in microbiology and living in Boston. "It's fake," he said.[12]
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Post by battery chucka' one »

Nice quotation. Selective reasoning much?
The Oregon Petition is the name commonly given to a petition opposed to the Kyoto protocol, organized by the Oregon Institute of Science and Medicine (OISM) between 1999 and 2001, shortly before the United States was expected to ratify the protocol. Professor Frederick Seitz, the past President of the National Academy of Sciences, wrote a cover letter endorsing the petition.

The Oregon Petition was the third, and by the far the largest, of five prominent efforts intended to show that a "scientific consensus" does not exist on the subject of global warming. The petition site asserts that total number of independently verified signatures received is 17,800.[1]

The text of the petition (which was on a reply card) reads, in its entirety:[2]
“ We urge the United States government to reject the global warming agreement that was written in Kyoto, Japan in December, 1997, and any other similar proposals. The proposed limits on greenhouse gases would harm the environment, hinder the advance of science and technology, and damage the health and welfare of mankind.

There is no convincing scientific evidence that human release of carbon dioxide, methane, or other greenhouse gasses is causing or will, in the foreseeable future, cause catastrophic heating of the Earth's atmosphere and disruption of the Earth's climate. Moreover, there is substantial scientific evidence that increases in atmospheric carbon dioxide produce many beneficial effects upon the natural plant and animal environments of the Earth.


The text of the petition is often misrepresented: for example, the petition's website states that "scientists declare that global warming is a lie with no scientific basis."[2] The two-paragraph petition used the terms catastrophic heating and disruption , not "global warming." The article attached to the petition (see below) did mention "global warming" twenty-one times and "climate change" four times.[3]

[edit] Covering letter and attached article

The petition had a covering letter from Frederick Seitz, who identified himself as "Past President, National Academy of Sciences, U.S.A.; President Emeritus, Rockefeller University", and an attached article. The six paragraph letter said that the attached article was "an eight page review of information on the subject of 'global warming'."[4] The senior author of the article was Dr. Arthur B. Robinson, a biochemist. The second and third authors were Drs. Sallie Baliunas and Willie Soon of Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics. Both Baliunas and Soon have ties to the George C. Marshall Institute, which has taken a skeptical position on global warming since the 1980s. The fourth and final author was Zachary W. Robinson, Arthur Robinson's 21-year-old son.[5]

The article states that "over the past two decades, when CO2 levels have been at their highest, global average temperatures have actually cooled slightly" and says that this was based on comparison of satellite data (for 1979-1997) and balloon data from 1979-96. At the time the petition was written, this was unclear. Since then the satellite record has been revised, and shows warming. (See historical temperature record and satellite temperature measurements.)

The article that accompanied the petition was written in the style and format of a contribution to Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, a scientific journal.[3] Raymond Pierrehumbert, an atmospheric chemist at the University of Chicago, and (now) member of RealClimate, said that it was "designed to be deceptive by giving people the impression that the article…is a reprint and has passed peer review." Pierrehumbert also said the article was full of "half-truths". F. Sherwood Rowland, who was at the time foreign secretary of the National Academy of Sciences, said that the Academy received numerous inquiries from researchers who "are wondering if someone is trying to hoodwink them."[6]

After the petition appeared, the National Academy of Sciences said in news release[7] that "The NAS Council would like to make it clear that this petition has nothing to do with the National Academy of Sciences and that the manuscript was not published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences or in any other peer-reviewed journal." It also said "The petition does not reflect the conclusions of expert reports of the Academy." The NAS further noted that its own prior published study had shown that "even given the considerable uncertainties in our knowledge of the relevant phenomena, greenhouse warming poses a potential threat sufficient to merit prompt responses. Investment in mitigation measures acts as insurance protection against the great uncertainties and the possibility of dramatic surprises."[8]

In a 2006 interview for the magazine Vanity Fair, Seitz acknowledged that "it was stupid" for the Oregon Petition to copy the National Academy of Sciences format.[9]

Because of various criticisms made of the two Leipzig Declarations, the Oregon Petition Project claimed to adopt a number of measures, though none of these claims have been independently verified:

* The petitioners could submit responses only by physical mail, not electronic mail, to limit fraud. Older signatures submitted via the web were not removed. The verification of the scientists is listed at 95%,[1] but the means by which this verification was done is not specified.
* Signatories to the petition were requested to list an academic degree; 86% did list a degree. The petition sponsors stated that approximately two thirds held higher degrees, but provided no details confirming this claim.
* Petitioners were also requested to list their academic discipline. The petition sponsors state that 2,660 scientists were trained in physical or environmental sciences (physics, geophysics, climatology, meteorology, oceanography, or environmental science) while 25% were trained in chemistry, biochemistry, biology, or other life sciences.[1]
* The Petition Project itself avoided any funding or association with the energy industries. A few of the scientists who signed the petition are affiliated with organizations funded by groups such as Exxon or the Competitive Enterprise Institute's Myron Ebell and the Cooler Heads Coalition's Patrick Michaels.

The term "scientists" is often used in describing signatories. The petition requests signatories list their degree (B.S., M.S., or Ph.D.) and to list their scientific field.[2] The distribution of petitions was relatively uncontrolled: those receiving the petition could check a line that said "send more petition cards for me to distribute".

The Petition Project itself states:
“ Of the 19,700 signatures that the project has received in total so far, 17,800 have been independently verified and the other 1,900 have not yet been independently verified. Of those signers holding the degree of PhD, 95% have now been independently verified. One name that was sent in by enviro pranksters, Geri Halliwell, PhD, has been eliminated. Several names, such as Perry Mason and Robert Byrd are still on the list even though enviro press reports have ridiculed their identity with the names of famous personalities. They are actual signers. Perry Mason, for example, is a PhD Chemist.[1] ”

In 2005, Scientific American reported:
“ Scientific American took a sample of 30 of the 1,400 signatories claiming to hold a Ph.D. in a climate-related science. Of the 26 we were able to identify in various databases, 11 said they still agreed with the petition —- one was an active climate researcher, two others had relevant expertise, and eight signed based on an informal evaluation. Six said they would not sign the petition today, three did not remember any such petition, one had died, and five did not answer repeated messages. Crudely extrapolating, the petition supporters include a core of about 200 climate researchers – a respectable number, though rather a small fraction of the climatological community.[10] ”

In a 2005 op-ed in the Hawaii Reporter, Todd Shelly wrote:
“ In less than 10 minutes of casual scanning, I found duplicate names (Did two Joe R. Eaglemans and two David Tompkins sign the petition, or were some individuals counted twice?), single names without even an initial (Biolchini), corporate names (Graybeal & Sayre, Inc. How does a business sign a petition?), and an apparently phony single name (Redwine, Ph.D.). These examples underscore a major weakness of the list: there is no way to check the authenticity of the names. Names are given, but no identifying information (e.g., institutional affiliation) is provided. Why the lack of transparency?[11] ”

In May 1998 the Seattle Times wrote:
“ Several environmental groups questioned dozens of the names: "Perry S. Mason" (the fictitious lawyer?), "Michael J. Fox" (the actor?), "Robert C. Byrd" (the senator?), "John C. Grisham" (the lawyer-author?). And then there's the Spice Girl, a k a. Geraldine Halliwell: The petition listed "Dr. Geri Halliwell" and "Dr. Halliwell."

Asked about the pop singer, Robinson said he was duped. The returned petition, one of thousands of mailings he sent out, identified her as having a degree in microbiology and living in Boston. "It's fake," he said.[12]
Yadda, yadda, yadda.
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Post by battery chucka' one »

Here's another link for ya'. Explains a little more than wikipedia.

OISM
Last edited by battery chucka' one on Thu Apr 12, 2007 2:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Justa Heel »

battery chucka' one wrote:Nice quotation. Selective reasoning much?
Yeah I selected the part which showed the rest of it was pretty much bogus. How irrational of me.

Also just got off the phone with my climatologist buddy. He says it's man, not cyclical. His wife agreed. She's a climatologist too. :lol:
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Post by battery chucka' one »

Justa Heel wrote:
battery chucka' one wrote:Nice quotation. Selective reasoning much?
Yeah I selected the part which showed the rest of it was pretty much bogus. How irrational of me.

Also just got off the phone with my climatologist buddy. He says it's man, not cyclical. His wife agreed. She's a climatologist too. :lol:
Quiet, please, son. Adults are speaking.
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Justa Heel wrote:Also just got off the phone with my climatologist buddy. He says it's man, not cyclical. His wife agreed. She's a climatologist too.

Then hit them up for some actual, hard numbers. I'm sincerely curious, since this "debate" seems completely devoid of all but the most basic ones, like global mean/average temps and all that stuff.


Again, I tend to believe that converting the earth's crust to heat/energy all day every day in every concievable way could certainly have some æffect, but I NEED NUMBERS, DAMMIT!


Then again, we could torch every bit of available fossil fuel until the atmospere ran out of oxygen to react with it...


and it still doesn't do much to explain why Mars appears to be getting warmer, as evidenced by what may be rapid changes in the polar dry-icecap thingies...which is an interesting side-debate to the cause of our own global warming, with about as much agreement from the various sides.

Good read on Mars.

But if Mars really is undergoing the same trend, it makes the anthropogenic debate pretty silly. Then again, if you overlay a graph of the global temp and a graph of petroleum consumed since the onset of the Industrial Revolution, they are eerily similar. Interesting stuff.


I, for one, am glad we, as a society, were able to come up with a replacement for "the Ruskies are going to nuke us tomorrow," and "the mosquitoes are going to spread AIDS and kill us all," and "We Are The World," and whatever the worldwide bitch-session was at the time. We've hit the motherload with this one...this one's got some legs.


There's never a dull conversational moment as long as there's a little Global Warming in the air.
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mvscal wrote: Then again, the Little Ice Age ended right around the middle of the 19th century which happens to coincide with the beginning of the Industrial Revolution so it really isn't so difficult to understand.

Add to that...when was the last time a massive volcanic event trashed the earth's atmospere for a few years?

It was 1883-btw. Those events have been more frequent in the past.
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Dinsdale wrote:
Justa Heel wrote:Also just got off the phone with my climatologist buddy. He says it's man, not cyclical. His wife agreed. She's a climatologist too.
and it still doesn't do much to explain why Mars appears to be getting warmer, as evidenced by what may be rapid changes in the polar dry-icecap thingies...which is an interesting side-debate to the cause of our own global warming, with about as much agreement from the various sides.

Good read on Mars.

But if Mars really is undergoing the same trend, it makes the anthropogenic debate pretty silly. Then again, if you overlay a graph of the global temp and a graph of petroleum consumed since the onset of the Industrial Revolution, they are eerily similar. Interesting stuff.

Global warming on Mars?

by Steinn Sigurdsson.

Recently, there have been some suggestions that "global warming" has been observed on Mars (e.g. here). These are based on observations of regional change around the South Polar Cap, but seem to have been extended into a "global" change, and used by some to infer an external common mechanism for global warming on Earth and Mars (e.g. here and here). But this is incorrect reasoning and based on faulty understanding of the data.



A couple of basic issues first : the Martian year is about 2 Earth years (687 days). Currently it is late winter in Mars's northern hemisphere, so late summer in the southern hemisphere. Martian eccentricity is about 0.1 - over 5 times larger than Earth's, so the insolation (INcoming SOLar radiATION) variation over the orbit is substantial, and contributes significantly more to seasonality than on the Earth, although Mars's obliquity (the angle of its spin axis to the orbital plane) still dominates the seasons. The alignment of obliquity and eccentricity due to precession is a much stronger effect than for the Earth, leading to "great" summers and winters on time scales of tens of thousands of years (the precessional period is 170,000 years). Since Mars has no oceans and a thin atmosphere, the thermal inertia is low, and Martian climate is easily perturbed by external influences, including solar variations. However, solar irradiance is now well measured by satellite and has been declining slightly over the last few years as it moves towards a solar minimum.

So what is causing Martian climate change now? Mars has a relatively well studied climate, going back to measurements made by Viking, and continued with the current series of orbiters, such as the Mars Global Surveyor. Complementing the measurements, NASA has a Mars General Circulation Model (GCM) based at NASA Ames. (NB. There is a good "general reader" review of modeling the Martian atmosphere by Stephen R Lewis in Astronomy and Geophysics, volume 44 issue 4. pages 6-14.)

Globally, the mean temperature of the Martian atmosphere is particularly sensitive to the strength and duration of hemispheric dust storms, (see for example here and here). Large scale dust storms change the atmospheric opacity and convection; as always when comparing mean temperatures, the altitude at which the measurement is made matters, but to the extent it is sensible to speak of a mean temperature for Mars, the evidence is for significant cooling from the 1970's, when Viking made measurements, compared to current temperatures. However, this is essentially due to large scale dust storms that were common back then, compared to a lower level of storminess now. The mean temperature on Mars, averaged over the Martian year can change by many degrees from year to year, depending on how active large scale dust storms are.

In 2001, Malin et al published a short article in Science (subscription required) discussing MGS data showing a rapid shrinkage of the South Polar Cap. Recently, the MGS team had a press release discussing more recent data showing the trend had continued. MGS 2001 press release MGS 2005 press release. The shrinkage of the Martian South Polar Cap is almost certainly a regional climate change, and is not any indication of global warming trends in the Martian atmosphere. Colaprete et al in Nature 2005 (subscription required) showed, using the Mars GCM, that the south polar climate is unstable due to the peculiar topography near the pole, and the current configuration is on the instability border; we therefore expect to see rapid changes in ice cover as the regional climate transits between the unstable states.

Thus inferring global warming from a 3 Martian year regional trend is unwarranted. The observed regional changes in south polar ice cover are almost certainly due to a regional climate transition, not a global phenomenon, and are demonstrably unrelated to external forcing. There is a slight irony in people rushing to claim that the glacier changes on Mars are a sure sign of global warming, while not being swayed by the much more persuasive analogous phenomena here on Earth...

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/ar ... g-on-mars/
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mvscal wrote:
Dinsdale wrote:Then hit them up for some actual, hard numbers. I'm sincerely curious, since this "debate" seems completely devoid of all but the most basic ones, like global mean/average temps and all that stuff.
Read up on the Vostok ice core data for an explicit example of the cyclical and occassionally very rapid nature of climate change over the last 400,000 or so years. It's pretty clear that the role of CO2 in climate change is peripheral at best.
What does the lag of CO2 behind temperature in ice cores tell us about global warming?

This is an issue that is often misunderstood in the public sphere and media, so it is worth spending some time to explain it and clarify it. At least three careful ice core studies have shown that CO2 starts to rise about 800 years (600-1000 years) after Antarctic temperature during glacial terminations. These terminations are pronounced warming periods that mark the ends of the ice ages that happen every 100,000 years or so.

Does this prove that CO2 doesn't cause global warming? The answer is no.


The reason has to do with the fact that the warmings take about 5000 years to be complete. The lag is only 800 years. All that the lag shows is that CO2 did not cause the first 800 years of warming, out of the 5000 year trend. The other 4200 years of warming could in fact have been caused by CO2, as far as we can tell from this ice core data.

The 4200 years of warming make up about 5/6 of the total warming. So CO2 could have caused the last 5/6 of the warming, but could not have caused the first 1/6 of the warming.

It comes as no surprise that other factors besides CO2 affect climate. Changes in the amount of summer sunshine, due to changes in the Earth's orbit around the sun that happen every 21,000 years, have long been known to affect the comings and goings of ice ages. Atlantic ocean circulation slowdowns are thought to warm Antarctica, also.

From studying all the available data (not just ice cores), the probable sequence of events at a termination goes something like this. Some (currently unknown) process causes Antarctica and the surrounding ocean to warm. This process also causes CO2 to start rising, about 800 years later. Then CO2 further warms the whole planet, because of its heat-trapping properties. This leads to even further CO2 release. So CO2 during ice ages should be thought of as a "feedback", much like the feedback that results from putting a microphone too near to a loudspeaker.

In other words, CO2 does not initiate the warmings, but acts as an amplifier once they are underway. From model estimates, CO2 (along with other greenhouse gases CH4 and N2O) causes about half of the full glacial-to-interglacial warming.

So, in summary, the lag of CO2 behind temperature doesn't tell us much about global warming. [But it may give us a very interesting clue about why CO2 rises at the ends of ice ages. The 800-year lag is about the amount of time required to flush out the deep ocean through natural ocean currents. So CO2 might be stored in the deep ocean during ice ages, and then get released when the climate warms.]

To read more about CO2 and ice cores, see Caillon et al., 2003, Science magazine

Guest Contributor: Jeff Severinghaus
Professor of Geosciences
Scripps Institution of Oceanography
University of California, San Diego.
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battery chucka' one wrote:
Justa Heel wrote:
battery chucka' one wrote:Nice quotation. Selective reasoning much?
Yeah I selected the part which showed the rest of it was pretty much bogus. How irrational of me.

Also just got off the phone with my climatologist buddy. He says it's man, not cyclical. His wife agreed. She's a climatologist too. :lol:
Quiet, please, son. Adults are speaking.
Bitch please, the kiddie smack board is down the street.

Here's some shit you can understand...

http://www.transbuddha.com/mediaHolder.php?id=1147
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mvscal wrote:
Dinsdale wrote:Then again, if you overlay a graph of the global temp and a graph of petroleum consumed since the onset of the Industrial Revolution, they are eerily similar.
Then again, the Little Ice Age ended right around the middle of the 19th century which happens to coincide with the beginning of the Industrial Revolution so it really isn't so difficult to understand.
How much of the recent CO2 increase is due to human activities?

Contributed by Corinne Le Quéré, University of East Anglia.

This question keeps coming back, although we know the answer very well: all of the recent CO2 increase in the atmosphere is due to human activities, in spite of the fact that both the oceans and the land biosphere respond to global warming. There is a lot of evidence to support this statement which has been explained in a previous posting here and in a letter in Physics Today . However, the most convincing arguments for scientists (based on isotopes and oxygen decreases in the atmosphere) may be hard to understand for the general public because they require a high level of scientific knowledge. I present simpler evidence of the same statement based on ocean observations, and I explain how we know that not only part of the atmospheric CO2 increase is due to human activities, but all of it.


On time-scales of ~100 years, there are only two reservoirs that can naturally exchange large quantities of CO2 with the atmosphere: the oceans and the land biosphere (forests and soils). The mass of carbon (carbon is the "C" in CO2) must be conserved. If the atmospheric CO2 increase was caused, even in part, by carbon emitted from the oceans or the land, we would measure a carbon decrease in these two reservoirs.

Number of observations of carbon decreasing in the global oceans: zero.

Number of observations of carbon increasing in the global oceans: more than 20 published studies using 6 independent methods.
The methods are:
(1) direct observations of the partial pressure of CO2 at the ocean surface (Takahashi et al. 2002),
(2) observations of the spatial distribution of atmospheric CO2 which show how much carbon goes in and out of the different oceanic regions (Bousquet et al. 2000),
(3) observations of carbon, oxygen, nutrients and CFCs combined to remove the mean imprint of biological processes (Sabine et al. 2004),
(4) observations of carbon and alkalinity for two time-periods combined with an estimate of water age based on CFCs (McNeil et al. 2002), and the simultaneous observations of atmospheric CO2 increase and the decrease in (5) oxygen (Keeling et al. 1996), and (6) carbon 13 (Ciais et al. 1995) in the atmosphere.

The principle of the last two methods is that both fossil fuel burning and biospheric respiration consume oxygen and reduce carbon 13 as they produce CO2, but the exchange of CO2 with the oceans has only a small impact on atmospheric oxygen and carbon 13. The measure of atmospheric CO2 increase together with oxygen or carbon 13 decrease gives the distribution between the different reservoirs.

All the estimates show that the carbon content of the oceans is increasing by ~ 2±1 PgC every year (current burning of fossil fuel is ~7 PgC per year). One method is able to go back in time and shows that the carbon content of the oceans has increased by 118±19 PgC in the last 200 years. There is some uncertainty about the exact amount that the oceans have taken up, but not about the direction of the change. The oceans cannot be a source of carbon to the atmosphere, because we observe them to be a sink of carbon from the atmosphere.

What about the land biosphere? We know that deforestation has contributed to the increase in atmospheric CO2. Yet because carbon needs to be conserved, observations of the carbon increase in the atmosphere and the oceans combined with estimates of fossil fuel burning tell us that deforestation has been largely compensated by enhanced growth by the land biosphere. For example, during 1980 to 1999, fossil fuel burning was 117±5 PgC, and the carbon increase in the atmosphere and the oceans were 65±1 and 37±8 PgC, respectively. Thus that leaves 15±9 PgC that has been taken up by the land. This 15±9 PgC includes deforestation (and other land-use changes) which reduced the land biosphere by 24±12 PgC, and an additional land uptake of 39±18 PgC in response to elevated CO2 and climate changes (Sabine et al. 2004). Here also there is some uncertainty about the exact amount, but there is no uncertainty that the land biosphere has taken up a quantity of CO2 that is roughly equivalent to the deforestation.

Why are the ocean and land taking up carbon, when we know that warming of the oceans reduces the solubility of CO2 and warming of the land accelerates bacterial degradation of the soils? The answer is that warming is not the only process that influences the oceans and land biosphere. The dominant process in the oceans is the response to increasing atmospheric CO2 itself. If the oceans had not warmed, they might have taken up even more carbon, although we cannot say for sure because warming may have other impacts, for example on marine biota. On land, bacterial degradation of the soils may have increased in response to warming, but for the moment this effect is smaller than the land response to other processes (for example fertilization by CO2 and nitrogen, changes in precipitation, etc).

Is this consistent with what we know of the glaciations? Yes. During glaciations, the balance of processes was very different. Cooling and other climate changes occurred first. The response of the oceans and land biosphere to climate caused the atmospheric CO2 to decrease, which caused more cooling (more on the feedbacks between temperature and CO2 can be found here). During glaciations, there were no external changes in atmospheric CO2 and the oceans and land biosphere responded primarily to climate change. In the last 200 years, there have been large changes in atmospheric CO2 as a result of human activities, and the oceans and land biosphere respond primarily to rising CO2.

In summary, we know that the rise in atmospheric CO2 is entirely caused by fossil fuel burning and deforestation because many independent observations show that the carbon content has also increased in both the oceans and the land biosphere (after deforestation). If the oceans or land had contributed to the rise in atmospheric CO2, they would hold less carbon. Their response to warming may be real, but it is less than their response to increasing CO2 and other climate changes for the moment.


More on the carbon budget can be found in the last IPCC report here, which includes budgets and uncertainties for different time periods and additional numbers for the small contribution of volcanoes and other geological reservoirs.

References:
Bousquet et al. (2000), Regional changes of CO2 fluxes over land and oceans since 1980, Science, Vol 290, 1342-1346.
Ciais et al. (1995), A Large Northern Hemisphere Terrestrial CO2 Sink Indicated by the 13C/12C Ratio of atmospheric CO2, Science, Vol 269, pp. 1098-1102.
Keeling, Piper and Heimann (1996), Global and hemispheric CO2 sinks deduced from changes in atmospheric O2 concentration, Nature, Vol 381, 218-221.
McNeil et al. (2003), Anthropogenic CO2 uptake by the ocean based on the global chlorofluorocarbon data set, Science, Vol 299, 235-239.
Takahashi et al. (2002), Global sea-air CO2 flux based on climatological surface ocean pCO2, and seasonal biological and temperature effects, Deep Sea Research, Vol 49, 1601-1622.
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mvscal wrote:
Water vapor is by far the most important GHG yet you rarely if ever hear the AGW hacks talking about it.
Busy Week for Water Vapor

It's been a busy week for water vapor, and I have two recent papers to discuss. The first is the paper "Anthropogenic greenhouse forcing and strong water vapor feedback increase temperature in Europe" by Rolf Philipona et al. (GRL, 2005, subscription required for full text), which has attracted a certain amount of media attention. The overall goal of the paper is to understand, from a physical standpoint, why European temperatures have been increasing three times faster than the Northern Hemisphere average. It focuses on the changes between 1995 and 2002, over which time good surface radiation budget observations are available. The paper reports some results on the role of large scale circulation changes (which they conclude are minor) but I'll concentrate on the results relating to water vapor.


The most interesting result may be summarized as follows. Measurements from a network of six Alpine surface budget stations indicate that the primary radiative forcing driving the increase in surface temperature is an increase of downward clear sky infrared from the atmosphere to the surface. The annual average increase in this term is nearly 4 Watts per square meter between 1995 and 2002. Net cloud effects are relatively less important. Moreover, the increase in downward clear sky infrared is correlated with an increase in atmospheric temperature, and also an increase in the water vapor content of the surface layer of the atmosphere. Using a simple radiation model, the authors conclude that about a third of the increase in downwelling infrared is due to the increase in atmospheric temperature,and the rest is due primarily to an increase in the water vapor content of the low level atmosphere. This happens because water vapor is a greenhouse gas, so increasing the water vapor content makes air act more like a perfect blackbody emitter, if the air is not already opaque to infrared. In this case, increasing water vapor content will make the air a better absorber and emitter, even if its temperature doesn't change. From this result we learn that: (a) observations confirm the expected increase of low level water vapor content with temperature , and (b) the increase in water vapor accounts for the bulk of the increase in downward radiation heating the surface.

The authors then subtract off the part of the downward infrared radiation increase attributable to temperature and water vapor increase, and thus estimate the part due directly (as opposed to via feedbacks) to the increase in anthropogenic greenhouse gases such as CO2. They estimate this to be about one third of a Watt per square meter. This is not in bad agreement with estimates from detailed radiation models run by the authors, which say that the change in surface radiation due to the 12ppm CO2 increase between 1995 and 2002 should be about one fourth of a Watt per square meter. It is striking that the changes in the Earth's surface radiation budget due to anthropogenic greenhouse gases are so profound that they can be directly observed on a regional scale, over such a short time period. So far, so good. Physics seems to be working as it should, and climate scientists seem to be basing their understanding of climate change on rock-solid physical principles. The authors do not fall into the trap of assuming that water vapor is the root cause of the observed warming. They understand fully well that water vapor acts as a feedback to amplify forcing due to CO2 increase, and make this clear in their paper. This paper does not, however, deal directly with the problem of whether European warming can be attributed to CO2 increase. It only shows that, whatever mechanism is causing the warming of the atmosphere in this region, the surface warming is being amplified by low level water vapor feedbacks.

The accuracy of the media coverage of Phillipona et al. is decidedly mixed. The BBC got the scientific story straight (warming due to water vapor amplifying anthropogenic effects, everything working as it should, no worries about the physics, mate.), but their otherwise sound article was published with the unfortunate sub-header "Water vapour rather than carbon dioxide in the atmosphere is the main reason why Europe's climate is warming, according to a new study." This gives the casual reader the erroneous impression that the study concludes CO2 is unimportant. It feeds the old, discredited skeptics' notion that the water vapor greenhouse effect is so dominant that there's no need to be concerned about CO2. National Geographic is a little breathless: " The latest villain on global warming's most-wanted list is all wet—and a little surprising. Water vapor, experts say, is the culprit behind Europe's rapidly rising temperatures." However, they get the basic scientific story straight, quoting Philipona as saying "It is an experiment that clearly shows which factors are driving the higher temperatures. It is not the clouds, not the sun, not the aerosols. It is the increased greenhouse gases and the strong water vapor impact." UPI is probably the worst of the bunch. They state "Swiss scientists say Europe's recent rapid temperature increase is likely due to an unexpected greenhouse gas: water vapor." Unexpected? If they were readers of RealClimate, they'd know better.

All of this was relatively harmless, but all the coverage missed the boat in the same way. Press reports failed to note that the water vapor feedback discussed in Philipona et al. is not the same water vapor feedback usually discussed in connection with global warming. It is instead a surface water vapor feedback which adds additional surface warming on top of the usual things we talk about. The effect is already incorporated in the climate models used in IPCC forecasts, but the new observational study will be useful as a reality-check.

Phillipona et al. analyzed trends in the energy budget of the Earth's surface. While this is definitely an aspect of climate change, it comes as a surprise to many that the surface energy budget plays a decidedly secondary role in climate change compared to the top-of-atmosphere energy budget. The fact is, that even if the diligent Swiss authors of this paper had found that increasing CO2 contributed nothing to the changes in the surface budget, this would have in no way contradicted our understanding of the way anthropogenic greenhouse gases influence climate. For the most part, surface temperature changes are determined by perturbations to the top-of-atmosphere budget, and the surface budget is just dragged along, accomodating itself to whatever changes in surface temperature are demanded in order to be able to satisfy the top of atmosphere budget. It is impossible to understand the greenhouse effect without thoroughly understanding this point. Even the authors of Phillipona et al. seem to be a little fuzzy on this matter. They seem to think they are looking at the same water vapor feedback discussed in various review articles on the subject (e.g. Held and Soden (Annu. Rev. Energy Environ., 25, 441– 475. (2000)), Pierrehumbert et al. ("On the Relative Humidity of the Earth's Atmosphere" in The General Circulation, T. Schneider and A. Sobel, eds. Princeton U. Press 2005,) Pierrehumbert (Subtropical water vapor as a mediator of rapid global climate change. . in Clark PU, Webb RS and Keigwin LD eds. Mechanisms of global change at millennial time scales. American Geophysical Union:Washington, D.C. Geophysical Monograph Series 112, 394 pp1999), and the RealClimate article on the subject). but they are not. I shall try to explain.

In equilibrium, the Earth must lose as much energy out the top of its atmosphere as it gains by absorption of Solar energy. This is the principle of energy balance that controls the climate of all Earthlike planets. Currently our planet is out of equilibrium because the rapid rise of carbon dioxide is more than the slow response time of the oceans can keep up with; even if CO2 increase were halted today, the planet would continue to warm for a while as it comes into equilibrium. Planets only have one way of losing energy, which is by infrared radiation to space, often called "Outgoing Longwave Radiation," or OLR. The next piece of the story is that convection is always lifting air from the ground to high altitudes in the troposphere, causing the air to cool by expansion as it rises. This is the basic reason that temperature goes down with height in the troposphere. Convection and other dynamical heat transport mechanisms link together all the air in the troposphere, so that, to a first approximation, the whole troposphere can be considered to warm and cool as a unit. It doesn't matter much where you put in or take out heat from the troposphere.. It is mainly the net energy budget of the troposphere that counts. Now, if the atmosphere contains a greenhouse gas, the atmosphere will be partly opaque to infrared trying to escape from the surface. Infrared from the surface will be absorbed before it gets very far. As a result, the infrared that escapes to space comes more from the higher, colder parts of the atmosphere. Since infrared radiation increases like the fourth power of temperature, the radiation from these layers is much feebler than the radiation that would escape from the ground. On the other hand, the radiation into the ground comes predominantly from the warm layers nearest the ground.


This situation is illlustrated in Figure 1, showing actual values of fluxes which I computed for a sounding over Paris during the August heat wave of 2003 (with an idealized water vapor profile having 80% relative humidity near the ground and 50% aloft). The red arrows in this figure originate at the mean altitude from which radiation escapes upward or downward. Because the radiation to space and the radiation to the ground come from different places, increasing the greenhouse gas concentration of the atmosphere would affect the two radiations in different ways.

If we increase the concentration of a greenhouse gas (say, CO2), then that makes more of the atmosphere opaque to infrared, and so the infrared escapes from yet higher and thinner and colder parts of the atmosphere. This would reduce the OLR, if the temperature of the atmosphere were held fixed at its original value. The planet would then be receiving more Solar energy than it gets rid of. Solar energy is primarily absorbed at the surface and communicated to the troposphere by surface heat fluxes. This energy input stays the same, while the reduction in OLR has reduced the rate at which the atmosphere is losing energy. As a result, the troposphere must warm until the top of atmosphere energy budget is brought back into balance. Remember that the whole troposphere warms more or less as a unit. That means that the air near the ground must warm along with the rest. In this way, we see that the warming of the entire troposphere can mostly be inferred just by thinking about the top of atmosphere budget, without bringing the surface budget into the picture in any detail. So far, all we need to know about the surface budget is that all the energy absorbed at the surface eventually makes its way into the atmosphere.

We are not done yet. We still have to say how this change in the tropospheric temperature translates into a change in the temperature of the solid underlying surface on which we live. This is where the surface energy budget comes in. The complication here is that, while the top-of-atmosphere balance has only one loss term (the infrared), the surface has many ways to exchange energy with the overlying atmosphere:

Sensible heat flux (warming or cooling air in immediated contact with the surface and then mixing it aloft by turbulent motions)
Latent heat flux (cooling the surface by evaporation)
Infrared heat flux (cooling by emission of infrared by the surface, and warming by absorption of downelling infrared from the atmosphere)
with latent heat flux tends to be the dominant term, because evaporation is such an effective way of transferring heat. In fact, in warm, wet places like the Tropical Pacific Ocean, the evaporative heat transfer is so effective that all the surface budget tells us is that the surface temperature must stay quite close to the overlying air temperature. In a case like this, we don't even need a detailed surface heat budget to say what the surface temperature change is -- it is just dragged along with the tropospheric temperature increase. Changes in the surface budget instead affect the amount of evaporation needed to close the budget, and hence affect the precipitation rather than the temperature. The buffering of the surface budget by evaporation limits the leverage of the surface budget on surface temperature over much of the rest of the globe, though not to the same extent as in the tropical oceans.

The preceding reasoning does not mean that changes in the surface budget cannot affect the surface temperature. The right way to view the system is that (approximately) the top of atmosphere budget determines the warming of the low level air temperature, while the surface budget determines the difference between the air temperature and the surface temperature. There are many cases where this could further modulate the primary climate change, adding to or decreasing the primary top-of-atmosphere driven warming. This is particularly the case when a formerly wet land surface dries out. For example, the hot Sahara sands are around 10 degrees C warmer than the overlying air in the daytime, because in the absence of moisture the relatively inefficient sensible and radiative heat transfers need to have a pretty large temperature difference to work with in order to get rid of the necessary amount of heat. This is also why a dry sidewalk (pavement, to UK readers) gets very hot on a hot summer day. If the Sahara were made moister (as it was some thousands of years ago) the surface would cool regardless of what CO2 is doing. Conversely, if the moister parts of North America dry out in response to CO2 increase, the reduction in soil moisture will compound the surface temperature increase. Getting back to the implications of Philipona's results, since Europe is not in a completely evaporation-dominated regime, the downwelling infrared increase could possibly allow the surface temperature to warm more rapidly than the air temperature, compounding the general global warming driven by CO2. Whether or not this happens depends in large measure on how evaporative and sensible heat fluxes adjust. This aspect of the problem was not treated by the paper. Philipona et al find that the observed downward radiation increases by roughly 2.7 Watts per square meter over and above what would be expected from the air temperature increase alone. This would lead to a surface warming of about six tenths of a degree C if it were balanced entirely by an increase in surface infrared cooling. Sensible heat flux would bring the warming down by about a factor of two. Evaporative heat flux would bring the warming down yet more, but at the expense of increasing the evaporation and aggravating the drying of soils. These climate changes are not inconsequential, especially in view of the fact that they have taken place over a relatively short period and come on top of the "normal" global warming driven by the top-of-atmosphere balance.

To see why the anthropogenic greenhouse effect does not, however, rely on the direct perturbation of the surface energy budget by greenhouse gas changes, let's consider an idealized limiting case. Suppose that the lowest dozen meters or so of the atmosphere is so full of water vapor or cloud water that it acts like a perfect black body. It is as opaque as it can be to infrared. Now suppose that we double the atmosphere's CO2 content. This doesn't increase the infrared emission to the ground, because the low level air already has so much greenhouse-substance in it that it is radiating like a perfect blackbody, whose emission is determined by its temperature alone. It is radiating as much as it possibly can, for its given temperature. In radiative transfer-speak, its emission is "saturated." Furthermore, since the low layer is opaque to infrared, the CO2-caused change in downward emission aloft does not reach the ground. Does that mean there can be no further global warming in this case? No! What happens is that the increase in CO2 throws the top-of-atmosphere budget out of kilter, forcing the whole troposphere to warm up to bring the planet back into balance. Convection links the whole troposphere, which means the low level air warms up. The warming of the low level air, in turn, increases the flux of energy into the ground by all three of the mechanisms enumerated previously. In particular, the downward infrared flux increases because the air itself has become warmer -- not because it has become more optically thick in the infrared. The increase in downward flux then communicates the warming to the surface. As Phillipona et al. show, the real midlatitude European boundary layer is not perfectly opaque to infrared, so increases in water vapor content or CO2 can directly increase the infrared heating of the surface. This is very interesting, but it is in no way essential to the anthropogenic greenhouse effect.



The water vapor involved in the effect of water vapor on infrared downwelling to the surface is almost a completely separate issue – a different water vapor, as it were – from the water vapor we speak of when talking about the role of "water vapor feedback" in the context of global warming.. Water vapor feedback of the latter sort is a consequence of the effect of water vapor on the top of atmosphere radiation budget. Water vapor near the surface has very little effect on this. Making the surface layer of the atmosphere a more effective infrared absorber/emitter has little influence on the infrared upwelling into the rest of the atmosphere because the temperature of the ground differs little from the temperature of the overlying air; one is just replacing one radiating surface with another radiating surface of practically the same temperature. In contrast, the relatively small quantities of water vapor aloft have a much greater effect on the top-of-atmosphere budget, because they increase the infrared opaqueness of layers of the atmosphere that are much colder than the surface; they block the infrared flowing upward from the warmer parts of the atmosphere, and replace it with "new" infrared emission from the cold layer.

That brings us to the second of the two recent water vapor papers, which is perhaps the more important of the two, though the subject matter it treats is less novel. . This one ( B. J. Soden, D. L. Jackson, V. Ramaswamy, M. D. Schwarzkopf, X. Huang, Science 310, 841 (2005); October 2005 (10.1126/science.1115602)., subscription required for full text) has been more or less ignored by the media. Soden et al. deal with the aspect of water vapor feedback that affects the top of atmosphere radiation budget. The analysis consists in using various satellite observations to compare the behavior of mid to upper tropospheric water vapor between a general circulation model and reality. The analysis is carried out for the period 1982-2004, corresponding to the period of satellite data availability. The basic technique is the "model to satellite" method, in which the model temperature and humidity are used to directly simulate the brightness of radiation that would be observed by satellites looking at the atmosphere in various wavelength bands. By choosing satellite observations that are sensitive to the higher-altitude water vapor distribution, one can zero in on how well the model is doing in these all-important regions. Because of the relatively short period of the comparison, this exercise should not be regarded as an attempt to detect a trend in atmospheric water vapor and compare it with models. Rather, it is a check on whether the model does the same thing to upper layer water vapor as the real world, under varying year-to-year conditions (which do contain a trend over this period, as well as other things, e.g. El Nino).

By examining infrared satellite data, Soden et al. find that upper-level moisture increases in warmer conditions, in much the same way as predicted by the model. Further, by artificially suppressing moisture changes in the computation of the synthetic satellite data, they decisively reject the hypothesis that the atmospheric upper layer water content stays fixed as temperature changes. Synthetic satellite data computed on the basis of this hypothesis look nothing at all like the real thing. The authors take their analysis even further. Because the radiation measured by the satellites depends both on moisture and temperature,there is the possibility that faults in the climate model's upper level temperature predictions might be leading to spurious agreement with the infrared satellite data. To rule this out, they make use of microwave satellite data that is sensitive to the mid to upper tropospheric temperature, in order to formulate a diagnostic that is primarily sensitive to upper level moisture changes rather than temperature changes. Again, they find that the data demand that the upper troposphere get moister in warmer conditions. They conclude: "Reproduction of the observed radiance record requires a global moistening of the upper troposphere in response to atmospheric warming that is roughly equivalent in magnitude to that predicted under the assumption of constant relative humidity." This is probably the most direct evidence to date that there is nothing terribly wrong about the way general circulation models handle water vapor feedback. This is quite remarkable, given the potential role of small scale cloud processes in moistening the atmosphere. To be sure, the analysis only deals with clear sky regions, but the moisture in these regions originates in the cloudy convective regions, and so it provides a fair test. In any event, within the cloudy regions themselves, the clouds rather than water vapor have the dominant effect on the radiation budget.

There would appear to be less and less room for skeptics to dismiss climate model predictions on the grounds that we aren't sure they do water vapor feedback right. The picture is about to become even clearer, as researchers begin analyzing microwave upper level water vapor data, which will allow the analysis to be taken deeper into the convective, cloudy regions. To be sure, there is still a gap in understanding what the models are actually doing, in that it is far from clear why such complex processes boil down to a simple behavior: that the water vapor over a deep region of the troposphere changes in such a way as to keep relative humidity approximately constant. I have some ideas on this myself, but the general picture is still very much a work in progress. Meanwhile, it becomes increasingly clear that whyever the models do what they do to upper level water vapor, there can't be anything too terribly wrong with what they are doing.
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Cuda
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Post by Cuda »

Justa Tard wrote:And I'll continue to get my science from scientists as opposed to some sheep parroting predictable right-wing propaganda.
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He's really just an actor, not a scientist
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Post by OCmike »

Jesus, I had to scroll my mouse wheel six times just to get past that filibustering bullshit.
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Justa Heel
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Post by Justa Heel »

mvscal wrote:
Justa Heel wrote:all of the recent CO2 increase in the atmosphere is due to human activities
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Oh....OK.
WELL THERE YOU HAVE IT.

:lol:
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Justa Heel
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Post by Justa Heel »

mvscal wrote:
It feeds the old, discredited skeptics' notion that the water vapor greenhouse effect is so dominant that there's no need to be concerned about CO2.
Discredited?!? That is a bald faced lie.
Guess again, limpdick.
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