the Las Vegas Penguins.....

The Assassin · Post by **The Assassin** » Wed Dec 20, 2006 9:53 pm

Casino aligned with Pens not awarded licenseAssociated Press

PITTSBURGH -- The Penguins' future in Pittsburgh was in doubt following the state's rejection Wednesday of a slot-machine casino application by Isle of Capri Casinos, which had promised to build a $290 million arena if it got a license.

Scott Burnside's take

Scott Burnside addressed the uncertain future of the Penguins in his SportsNation chat Wednesday.
• To read the chap wrap, click here.

The Penguins ownership group, headed by Hall of Fame player Mario Lemieux, were discouraged by the outcome and said the franchise would begin weighing all options -- including possible sale to owners who would move the two-time Stanley Cup champions.

The Isle of Capri rejection came only five days after wealthy Canadian businessman Jim Balsillie unexpectedly pulled out of his $175 million deal to buy the franchise, apparently because the NHL wanted him to commit to not moving the Penguins. Balsillie had been expected to close on the deal late last week.

"At this point, our franchise enters a period of uncertainty, with our lease at Mellon Arena set to expire this summer," chief executive officer Ken Sawyer said. "We will re-evaluate all of our options before deciding on a course of action and making further comment."

Even as city and county politicians held a news conference to announce they would immediately begin to finalize an alternate arena deal for the Penguins, NHL commissioner Gary Bettman warned that the Penguins' future is in doubt.

"The decision by the Gaming Commission was terrible news for the Penguins, their fans and the NHL," Bettman said in a statement. "The future of this franchise in Pittsburgh is uncertain and the Penguins now will have to explore all other options, including possible relocation. The NHL will support the Penguins in their endeavors."

After the decision was announced, the Penguins practiced at Mellon Arena, the 45-year-old building the team says must be replaced for it to remain viable in Pittsburgh.

The board voted unanimously to award the city's only slot-machine license to Detroit-based casino developer Don H. Barden's PITG Gaming. Barden's group proposes building a casino and entertainment development on the city's North Shore, near Heinz Field and PNC Park. Both the Steelers and Pirates were strongly opposed to his plan.

Barden had promised to contribute some money for a new arena over 30 years under a plan proposed by city and county officials that would include public funds. But that plan also calls for the Penguins to help pay for the facility.

"I am committed to what we said we were going to do," Barden said Wednesday. "We're going to fund $7.5 million a year for 30 years toward financing a new multipurpose arena."

He said he will meeting soon with Allegheny County executive Dan Onorato and Pittsburgh mayor Luke Ravenstahl to get the process moving.

"It will be the largest of our operations and we're going to put a lot of attention on this project," Barden said. "We're going to get it going right away."

Onorato and Ravenstahl all but promised the Penguins will get a new arena. A parcel of land near Mellon Arena has already been obtained for the arena, and officials said a groundbreaking ceremony could be held as early as next month if they can reach an agreement with the Penguins.

"There is absolutely no doubt in my mind we will get an arena done," Ravenstahl said.

id hate to see them move from Pittsburgh because of the tradition. But I'd love for Vegas to FINALLY become a major league town.

Ken · Post by **Ken** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 12:59 am

I'm so effing jacked off about this, I don't even want to post 'bout it right now. I don't think I could even make a sensible post I'm so pissed.

The awarding of this single slots license to one of three applicants here in the 'burgh has been BIG news over the last few months. The decision essentially writes the future of the Pens here. Today in my office, I stepped into the other room to watch the awarding of the slots licenses live. I was pretty much emotionless w/despair when Isle of Capri lost.

I could make a list of the people I'm thoroughly pissed at... from Jerome Bettis' mother to the county commish, Mayor, and Governor for their collective lack of gonads and willingness to stand behind the Isle of Capri. They can all suck my dick and drown in my semen as far as I'm concerned.

So now that Isle of Capri lost their bid for the license, and hence the free arena for the Pens, the county commish, 'burgh mayor, and PA Gov. now implement 'Plan B'

... yeah, the plan that is going to ask the Pens to cough up, are you ready for this? 125 MILLION DOLLARS towards their new arena. Yeah, good luck w/that, fuckheads. Just in the past five or so years, you've only asked the almighty Stillers to cough up $75 million towards Heinz field and the Pirates $45 million towards PNC Park. But you turn around and ask the Pens, the team teetering on bankruptcy for years, to cough up more than the BOTH of those coughed up combined. I swear, this fucking city is so fucking blinded by the Stillers. Tomorrow's talk shows will be driven by Stiller draft blather, I'm sure.

This city is quite possibly the biggest shithole this side of the Mississippi, save for Detroit. W/the Pens impending departure, this place may as well sink into a tar pit.

Yeah, I'm fucking jacked.

Cross Traffic · Post by **Cross Traffic** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 2:34 am

$125 mil? Luc Robitaille and AEG are smiling from ear to ear right now with the chance of getting a team for the Sprint Center in KC.

What a joke, the Pirates forked up $45 mil for a stadium that houses a team that has been run on the cheap and hasn't fielded a winning team in 15 years.

Hate to see anyone lose their team to a move.

JD · Post by JD » Thu Dec 21, 2006 3:30 pm

That new arena they're building in KC looks like a good place for an exciting young team to come into. Not to mention, an NHL team there would finally give me a reason to go check that city out.

Moving the Pens to the Western Conference would be eerily similar to the mid-nineties move of an up-and-coming Nordiques team to the west.

But no reason to start shovelling dirt yet. The Pens have been close to moving before.

Shoalzie · Post by **Shoalzie** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 6:51 pm

I'm with JD...that KC arena looks very cool. That would be neat place to watch a hockey game. Given the young talent on that team...anybody with some money should take a look at buying them. If they move to a market that can support them, having Crosby, Malkin, Fleury and Staal as the face of the franchise would be a profitable venture. Any truth to rumors that Mark Cuban is interested in buying them? Could imagine him jumping the glass and chase down Mick McGeough after he makes a bad call? He would spice up the NHL if he buys into it. If the Pens end up in a Western city...popular belief around here is the Wings will go into the Eastern conference. Realignment and scheduling has been a hot topic of late...it's possible the conferences could be scrapped all together.

Ken · Post by **Ken** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 6:57 pm

When talk of the sales of a 'burgh professional team comes up, Cuban's name inevitably comes up given his ties to the 'burgh. So is the case w/the Pens. When the Balsillie deal looked inevitable, Cuban was quoted as saying something to the effect of, "Not looking into the purchase of the Pens may have been one my biggest regrets." That's not verbatim, but not far off (going from memory).

Well, Mark, the turkey's on the table.

My feeling is that Cuban says this kind of shit just to stay on the 'burgh's shit populus' good side, but isn't serious about purchasing.

Anyways, here's to hoping he does get into the fray and saving the Pens.

And, btw, the 'burgh market CAN support the penguins, shoalzie. Make no mistake about that.

Ken · Post by **Ken** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 8:53 pm

http://kdka.com/topstories/local_story_355131542.html

"It is time to take control of our own destiny," the Hall of Fame player said in a statement issued by the team. "Accordingly, starting today, the team is off the market and we will begin to explore relocation offers in cities outside Pennsylvania."

In other words, fuck you, 'burgh and state gov't. While you're down there picking up the ball you dropped, suck my dick.

I fucking hate this place.

fix · Post by **fix** » Fri Dec 22, 2006 2:09 am

Bettman's not going to allow the Penguins to move to any city that he does not personally approve of and with the financial disasters of Florida, Atlanta, Nashville looming on the horizon, there's no way he can approve of a move to a city where hockey won't immediately become successful.

Vegas isn't one of them because there's too many other attractions and let's be realistic, people in the US as a majority simply don't care about hockey. Kansas City might have what it takes but it failed there once before.

When the TV ratings in a hockey mad market like Detroit are down and you've got a zero rating in many other markets...

That's Bettman's fault, his pipe dream of insisting on putting teams in markets that don't give a fuck about hockey is what's fucked this league up, plain and simple.

I'll celebrate the day that someone or something takes his ass out. Death can't come soon enough for that piece of shit.

JD · Post by JD » Fri Dec 22, 2006 3:02 pm

Go back and look at the timeline, Otis. Most of the sunbelt teams were in place before Bettman was commish.

And beyond that, who says this league is fucked up? I rather enjoy it myself.

Ken · Post by **Ken** » Fri Dec 22, 2006 3:36 pm

It's fucked up as far as revenue and viewership goes. Hockey lags faaaaaaar behind the other three major professional sports in terms of revenue, arenas are half filled, and there is very little national coverage herein the States. This downturn has happened under Betteman's tenure.
However, I will agree that the players' salaries are now falling in line w/what the current revenue stream can suppport. Still, some work needs to be done.

JD · Post by JD » Fri Dec 22, 2006 3:51 pm

Why does hockey always have to be in line with the other 3 sports? It isn't those sports, and Americans won't embrace hockey as part of their culture the way baseball, basketball and especially football are.

There are pockets in the States that have a hockey culture, but it'll never be that way in the vast majority of that country.

The people who like hockey watch it. What's fucked up about that?

Ken · Post by **Ken** » Fri Dec 22, 2006 4:02 pm

I understand what you're saying, but you're missing my point a bit. While you're correct, there's not necessarily anything wrong with Hockey lagging way behind the other professional sports in terms of viewership and revenue (hey, it is what it is), it is not acceptable that the revenue stream, viewership, and attendence all slide downhill. This has happened under Betteman.

The people who like hockey watch it. What's fucked up about that?

Well nothing, if gaining new fans, or keeping the periphery ones isn't important to you.

fix · Post by **fix** » Fri Dec 22, 2006 4:13 pm

JD wrote:Go back and look at the timeline, Otis. Most of the sunbelt teams were in place before Bettman was commish.

And beyond that, who says this league is fucked up? I rather enjoy it myself.

I didn't say sunbelt teams JD but don't let that fact stand in your way of defending Bettman's abortion of a legacy.

Try reading next time.

And for the record, during Bettman's tenure, expansion teams were placed in (with the exception of St. Paul) those hockey hotbeds of Atlanta, Nashville, and Columbus. :roll:

And let's not forget the teams which he also allowed to be moved from Hartford, Winnipeg, Minnesota and Quebec City to Raleigh, Phoenix, Dallas and Denver, respectively.
With the exception of Denver, which has been successful, you could question the sustained outlook for every move Bettman presided over

And RACK Ken for getting it..

fix · Post by **fix** » Fri Dec 22, 2006 4:51 pm

JD wrote:Why does hockey always have to be in line with the other 3 sports? It isn't those sports, and Americans won't embrace hockey as part of their culture the way baseball, basketball and especially football are.

There are pockets in the States that have a hockey culture, but it'll never be that way in the vast majority of that country.

The people who like hockey watch it. What's fucked up about that?

Too bad your hero, Gary, doesn't get that small fact.
If he did, he'd realise that putting hockey into markets that don't give a shit about it will never sell. Winnipeg, Quebec City would have franchises back and a market which could and would support it, southern Ontario, would have an additional franchise.

JD · Post by JD » Fri Dec 22, 2006 5:09 pm

Otis, you think you could have an argument without name-calling and putting words in peoples' mouths? Fuck you're so hellbent on trashing Gary Bettman, it really gets in the way of your making your point, if you even have one.

You seem to think you agree with Ken, but he's talking about expanding the game to new fans and you're blasting Bettman for doing exactly that!!

Besides that, Columbus has been a pretty successful franchise, ESPECIALLY given the fact they've never had a sniff of the playoffs in their existence. Nashville's attendance has always been good. Atlanta could have been a mistake, but we're not talking about moving them, are we? I'd suspect that if they keep up their play this season, you'll see a spike in their popularity in Atlanta anyhow. Dallas has been a very successful franchise. Texas is a potentially huge market for hockey. In fact, Houston is one of the stronger AHL franchises out there. A lot of ex-Albertans living in those parts.

Bettman ain't my hero, but at least I'd prefer to discuss events based on their merit alone rather than who implemented them.

As far as revenue goes, it went up after last year, and the projections are that it's going up again next year. The salary cap is rising accordingly.

Then you shit on the fact that Quebec and Winnipeg moved to places that can't support their teams... guess what, Phoenix does support their team enough to get them an arena, something Winnipeg was unable to do. In the late 90's, Calgary and Edmonton were on the verge of leaving, and these are economically strong cities with much larger population bases than Quebec City and Winnipeg. Was Bettman supposed to let those teams sit and rot? He couldn't! The owners were losing gobs of money.

As for questioning every move Bettman's made, uh, yeah, I would hope so. And at risk of sounding like a broken record in this forum: Bettman is held accountable by the owners of the franchises. He does what they ask him to do as a group. If you have a problem with Bettman's actions, you have a problem with the major stakeholders in the NHL as well. Accordingly, that's not likely to change with any commissioner.

Shoalzie · Post by **Shoalzie** » Fri Dec 22, 2006 5:17 pm

Otis wrote:When the TV ratings in a hockey mad market like Detroit are down and you've got a zero rating in many other markets...

I think the biggest problem with the Wings is simply the fact they can't spend and some of the diehards probably miss Yzerman. This league will look more and more like the NFL with the parity amongst the middle tier of teams. The fans in Detroit are fickle...still a great hockey market but the fans around here are front runners. I just find it funny they can still pack Ford Field with that hideous franchise and the Joe can have empty seats each night. This is a passionate sports city but the fans are strange.

If I could do something radical to the NHL, I'd damn near cut the number of teams in half. Keep the 6 Canadian teams and go down to maybe 12 US markets at the most...one in New York, one in Los Angeles, Detroit, Chicago, Boston, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Dallas, Denver, Minneapolis, Atlanta, and St. Louis. This league would be great if the talent wasn't so spread out and the league was in just major markets. Keep the cap and all the rules, just trim down the teams and ice 16 or 18 more talented teams. Market the hell out of the star players and get a better TV deal. This league will be so much better if they were more stream-lined.

fix · Post by **fix** » Fri Dec 22, 2006 6:34 pm

JD wrote:Otis, you think you could have an argument without name-calling and putting words in peoples' mouths? Fuck you're so hellbent on trashing Gary Bettman, it really gets in the way of your making your point, if you even have one.

Putting words in people's mouths? You mean like your saying it was 'sunbelt' teams?
So you're incapable of understanding a point which is abundently clear, Bettman's a fucking joke and his 'game plan' has resulted in this league becoming a joke to the point where even women's softball gets more viewers.

You seem to think you agree with Ken, but he's talking about expanding the game to new fans and you're blasting Bettman for doing exactly that!!

:roll:

Ken wrote:revenue stream, viewership, and attendence all slide downhill. This has happened under Betteman

And once more, you're missing or being intentionlly ignorant of Ken's point.. I can't decide which it is..

Bettman's failed to do that. If anything he's helped drive people away from the game in traditional markets.

Besides that, Columbus has been a pretty successful franchise, ESPECIALLY given the fact they've never had a sniff of the playoffs in their existence.

And that will last for how much longer?

How succesful is a team which draws no attendance or a tv deal to support it?

Nashville's attendance has always been good.

Really, then perhaps you can explain why sports business experts all agree, Nashville's on the way down, fiscally speaking of course.

Atlanta could have been a mistake, but we're not talking about moving them, are we? I'd suspect that if they keep up their play this season, you'll see a spike in their popularity in Atlanta anyhow.

We should be, they're up next once Maria gets his mess that Gary's left him holding the bag with cleaned up. Their owners want to sell and the Phillips arena's half empty on a good night.

Dallas has been a very successful franchise. Texas is a potentially huge market for hockey. In fact, Houston is one of the stronger AHL franchises out there. A lot of ex-Albertans living in those parts.

:roll: Oh well that's a great reason for expansion there... since that analogy worked out so well in justifying expansion into South Florida...

Bettman ain't my hero, but at least I'd prefer to discuss events based on their merit alone rather than who implemented them.

He's not? Really the way you rush to defend his every action says differently.

As far as revenue goes, it went up after last year, and the projections are that it's going up again next year. The salary cap is rising accordingly.

Of course it did..revenue went up only at the expense of player salaries which were cut. Not because Bettman's helping expand the game's revenue with his signing that oh so great tv deal with OLN.. the network that nobody's heard of let alone watches.

Then you shit on the fact that Quebec and Winnipeg moved to places that can't support their teams... guess what, Phoenix does support their team enough to get them an arena, something Winnipeg was unable to do. In the late 90's, Calgary and Edmonton were on the verge of leaving, and these are economically strong cities with much larger population bases than Quebec City and Winnipeg. Was Bettman supposed to let those teams sit and rot? He couldn't! The owners were losing gobs of money.

Hypocrite much?

What's he been doing then in insisting that the Penguins remain in Pittsburgh for the past how many years now?

Oh wait, it's okay to move Canadian based teams losing money into American markets but it's not okay to move an American based team into a Canadian market where it would make money...
Ok, I can follow that logic.. :roll:

As for questioning every move Bettman's made, uh, yeah, I would hope so. And at risk of sounding like a broken record in this forum: Bettman is held accountable by the owners of the franchises. He does what they ask him to do as a group. If you have a problem with Bettman's actions, you have a problem with the major stakeholders in the NHL as well. Accordingly, that's not likely to change with any commissioner.

Well there is that group of 24 idiots along with Harley that can't fathom the game being expanded in a place where people actually give a shit about the sport that rides Bettman's jock.

fix · Post by **fix** » Fri Dec 22, 2006 6:43 pm

Shoalzie wrote:
Otis wrote:When the TV ratings in a hockey mad market like Detroit are down and you've got a zero rating in many other markets...

I think the biggest problem with the Wings is simply the fact they can't spend and some of the diehards probably miss Yzerman. This league will look more and more like the NFL with the parity amongst the middle tier of teams. The fans in Detroit are fickle...still a great hockey market but the fans around here are front runners. I just find it funny they can still pack Ford Field with that hideous franchise and the Joe can have empty seats each night. This is a passionate sports city but the fans are strange.

It is what it is Shoalzie.. hockey's never going to be as popular as football in the US, not even in a city that labels itself, hockeytown.

If I could do something radical to the NHL, I'd damn near cut the number of teams in half. Keep the 6 Canadian teams and go down to maybe 12 US markets at the most...one in New York, one in Los Angeles, Detroit, Chicago, Boston, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Dallas, Denver, Minneapolis, Atlanta, and St. Louis. This league would be great if the talent wasn't so spread out and the league was in just major markets. Keep the cap and all the rules, just trim down the teams and ice 16 or 18 more talented teams. Market the hell out of the star players and get a better TV deal. This league will be so much better if they were more stream-lined.

Contraction of U.S based teams is definitely the way to go although I'll differ with your choice of cities.

Ken · Post by **Ken** » Fri Dec 22, 2006 7:57 pm

JD wrote:You seem to think you agree with Ken, but he's talking about expanding the game to new fans and you're blasting Bettman for doing exactly that!!

Listen, there's this little thing called subsets. The topic is Increasing the Fanbase. The subsets are myriad, not ending or beginning w/League Expansion. Got that? I can assure you that when I spoke of increasing the fanbase, or AT LEAST stopping the slide downhill, league expansion didn't even enter my radar screen. Not once. Expansion when you don't have the viewership, fanbase, or TV contracts is a kiss of death. Idiotic. It may temporarily spike attendance in the very city expansion took place in, but it sure as hell does nothing positive for the game as a whole. Nothing. Send this illustration to http://www.Dictionary.com, 'cuz it should appear when one types in 'shortsighted'.

Now as for the rest of your post about cities recently receiving teams, potential cities who would be successful, my reply is what-the-fuck-ever. It all means exactly NOTHING if the NHL doesn't market itself better as a whole. Not just to one city here, one city there as a result of expansion. Don't you get this? The NHL's TV contract is worthless. Fuck, my cable company doesn't even offer Versus, and I'm in a g-damned hockey city. What the fuck? [Mora]And you wanna talk about expansion. Expansion? I just wanna watch a damned game[/Mora].

Get some momentum behind the game, THEN talk about expansion. Good luck w/that seeing as how you've already fucked the league w/expansion, Bettman.

KC Scott · Post by **KC Scott** » Fri Dec 22, 2006 8:06 pm

KC has had good hockey support for the last minor league team that stayed any length of time, the Blades.

I can't remember why they moved, but it had something to do with the Devos ownership out of Michigan - They also owned the Kalamazoo Wings.

As for KC supporting an NHL franchise, the biggest factor is selling it to the Corporations for the Boxes. Listening to the radio, it sounds as though Sprint, Hallmark, Yellow Roadway, H&R Block and our other corps are all lining up to buy if we land a team.

As for Joe fan, it's a Chiefs town first and foremost, but the Arena league team Brigade was either the top, or near the top in attendence last year. Maybe it was just the novelty of Arena Ball.

I think the hard salary cap, just like in the NFL, will inevitably make the league prosper. Obviously when you have a star like Crosby, you don't want to see him go to the Rangers or Wings a couple years after you draft him.

I add that only as a parallel to MLB here in KC. Four years ago when the Royals had Beltran, Damon and Jermaine Dye, attendence was starting to pick up. Within 2 years all of them were gone and attendence fell like a rock. Yea, it's bandwagoning, but the bottom line in KC is they want to see teams that are at least competitive.

Here's the sprint center:

AcidQueen · Post by **AcidQueen** » Fri Dec 22, 2006 8:42 pm

Otis wrote:
Nashville's attendance has always been good.
Really, then perhaps you can explain why sports business experts all agree, Nashville's on the way down, fiscally speaking of course.

Got something to back that up?

Just in the interest of seeing you look, oh I dunno....informed.

Screw_Michigan · Post by **Screw_Michigan** » Fri Dec 22, 2006 10:15 pm

Shoalzie wrote:The fans in Detroit are fickle...still a great hockey market but the fans around here are front runners. I just find it funny they can still pack Ford Field with that hideous franchise and the Joe can have empty seats each night. This is a passionate sports city but the fans are strange.

you just said, word for word, what i hate about wings fans and detroit fans in general. while i'm not surprised the wings aren't selling out, what kills me is how the pistons are the toughest ticket in town, yet they are no closer to a title than the wings are. the wings have almost 20 wins, but 19 is gone, shanny is gone, and the team can't outspend anybody for the likes of a sieve like curtis joseph, so in translation: wings fan could care less, call them when the playoffs arive.

but hey, at least it'd be nice to return to the days when the GLI championship was drawing 18k fans in the mid 80s, around the same time of the dead wings era.

Screw_Michigan · Post by **Screw_Michigan** » Fri Dec 22, 2006 10:22 pm

KC Scott wrote:KC has had good hockey support for the last minor league team that stayed any length of time, the Blades.

I can't remember why they moved, but it had something to do with the Devos ownership out of Michigan - They also owned the Kalamazoo Wings.

the devos cabal ERRRR family owns the AHL's griffins. i forget who owns the k-wings, you might have to ask shoalz. they also own wings stadium. if i'm correct, GM paul picard has a substantial ownership stake in the team, but i think there might be majority ownership by a kzoo family.

fix · Post by **fix** » Fri Dec 22, 2006 11:00 pm

It's not rocket science AQ, the Preds are 23st in attendance in a gate driven league. If the 1st place team (Anaheim) is 21st in attendance and in a major market, what does it say for Nashville's chances of success.

If that's not enough, listen to what Howard Bloom has to say here and start around the 36:00 mark..

They've had other hockey experts on the hockey shows here all week long, all stating the same thing... Pittsburgh's only the 1st to fall.

Btw, if anyone wants to hear Gretzky's thoughts on this topic, tune in here and start from the 29:00 into it.

Shoalzie · Post by **Shoalzie** » Fri Dec 22, 2006 11:17 pm

Screw_Michigan wrote:
KC Scott wrote:KC has had good hockey support for the last minor league team that stayed any length of time, the Blades.

I can't remember why they moved, but it had something to do with the Devos ownership out of Michigan - They also owned the Kalamazoo Wings.
the devos cabal ERRRR family owns the AHL's griffins. i forget who owns the k-wings, you might have to ask shoalz. they also own wings stadium. if i'm correct, GM paul picard has a substantial ownership stake in the team, but i think there might be majority ownership by a kzoo family.

I know the Parfet family owned the Wings for quite a while...Mr. Parfet passed away a few weeks ago. I don't know if the family has owned them since the IHL disbanded.

Shoalzie · Post by **Shoalzie** » Fri Dec 22, 2006 11:23 pm

Screw_Michigan wrote:
Shoalzie wrote:The fans in Detroit are fickle...still a great hockey market but the fans around here are front runners. I just find it funny they can still pack Ford Field with that hideous franchise and the Joe can have empty seats each night. This is a passionate sports city but the fans are strange.
you just said, word for word, what i hate about wings fans and detroit fans in general. while i'm not surprised the wings aren't selling out, what kills me is how the pistons are the toughest ticket in town, yet they are no closer to a title than the wings are. the wings have almost 20 wins, but 19 is gone, shanny is gone, and the team can't outspend anybody for the likes of a sieve like curtis joseph, so in translation: wings fan could care less, call them when the playoffs arive.

but hey, at least it'd be nice to return to the days when the GLI championship was drawing 18k fans in the mid 80s, around the same time of the dead wings era.

I'm waiting to see if these clowns that go to the Lions game Sunday will actually go through with the mass walkout in the second quarter. If the game is actually close, I bet those bastards will stay. If these fans really were mad at the Fords, they wouldn't buy tickets. The Fords already have their money for the tickets...the fans can do whatever they want. They can take a crap on the 50 yard line...the Fords still have their money. LionFan is so stupid that they'll keep their season tickets because they're afraid of giving them up because some other moron will buy them right after them. I'm done going to Ford Field until things change and I can't even sit through a whole game on TV anymore...that franchise is pretty much dead to me.

The atmosphere at the Joe for Wings' games is very stale. I sat second row at the Ottawa game and the fans were only loud when the scoreboard told them to make noise. WingFan isn't want it used to be. The Joe is pretty much littered with some loyal fans and then a bunch of guys that got their tickets from a business associate and they take friends out to the game as entertainment. It's not like what it used to be about five years ago. I really think the dying down of the rivalry with the Avs has take some of the energy out of the fanbase...WingFan lived for those classic duels during the regular season and the playoffs. I don't think WingFan really hates any teams right now. The Blues and Blackhawks are mediocre at best...both were great rivals back in the 80s and 90s. The Avs just aren't the same without Patrick. The Stars had their moments with the Wings but are just another team. The fans will complain about not seeing the Original 6 enough but they don't sell out the Joe when the Leafs were in town...go figure.

Ken · Post by **Ken** » Fri Dec 22, 2006 11:53 pm

Otis wrote:It's not rocket science AQ, the Preds are 23st in attendance in a gate driven league. If the 1st place team (Anaheim) is 21st in attendance and in a major market, what does it say for Nashville's chances of success.

If that's not enough, listen to what Howard Bloom has to say here and start around the 36:00 mark..

They've had other hockey experts on the hockey shows here all week long, all stating the same thing... Pittsburgh's only the 1st to fall.

I should clarify... the Penguin's impending departure is not due to low attendence. For a team that has sucked so freakin' badly, they've had quite good attendence figures, especially this year.

Screw_Michigan · Post by **Screw_Michigan** » Sat Dec 23, 2006 12:08 am

Shoalzie wrote:The fans will complain about not seeing the Original 6 enough but they don't sell out the Joe when the Leafs were in town...go figure.

you are absolutely right. detroit fans, in general, are huge bandwagon jumpers. of course, many pro cities have bandwagon fans (see chicago: sox, cubs), but detroit takes the cake for absurdity. like you said, they'll keep their lions season tix because they know someone else will pick them up (and eventually, crossing fingers, they'll be good), they'll bitch about the original six not coming to town, and luckily for detroit, the tigers had a hell of a year. otherwise it would have been a very dissapointing summer/fall heading into hockey/bball season.

i would have to say that the abortion of a division format (and scheduling) we have now, coupled with the decaying rivalries you just mentioned, has to have been the biggest contributor to wingfan's dying enthusiasm for the team. the interdivision format is absolute shit, owners can quit whining about travel time and travel costs and get back to a traditional regular season: get rid of three fucking divisions and go back to the two divisions per conference. quit playing fucking columbus 15 times a year. while i feel that the nashville/detroit "rivalry" could be good if the two teams stay near the top of the division (and try decapitating each other at all available opportunities, this is key), it's just not the same as you said, STL/DET, CHI/DET, MTL/DET, WPG/DET, etc.

wingfan loved the team when they were coming off 02 and still overspending teams, this showed the fans that the wings are a "franchise on another level" in hockey, if you get my drift. kind of like being the yankees. now, the wings are just another team trying to stay under the cap and maximize value of contracts, not just spend $6 million (or whatever) on a single year deal for brett hull or whatever aging role-playing veteran. the wings are just another team (unless they go deep in the playoffs) now and i think the fans are reflecting that sentiment.

Shoalzie · Post by **Shoalzie** » Sat Dec 23, 2006 12:17 am

Screw_Michigan wrote:wingfan loved the team when they were coming off 02 and still overspending teams, this showed the fans that the wings are a "franchise on another level" in hockey, if you get my drift. kind of like being the yankees. now, the wings are just another team trying to stay under the cap and maximize value of contracts, not just spend $6 million (or whatever) on a single year deal for brett hull or whatever aging role-playing veteran. the wings are just another team (unless they go deep in the playoffs) now and i think the fans are reflecting that sentiment.

That is a great summation of the current frame of mind for fairweather WingFan. Instead of them going out and signing Hull and Robitaille...they have to sign guys like Samuelsson and Cleary. The Wings are exactly what you say...just another franchise. One of the Wings' most identifiable traits back in the cup years a few years back was the ability to keep their guys and take others from other teams. Right now, there is a lot of talk about what will happen with Datsyuk...he reportedly wants between $6-7 million. If this was the old NHL, I think they pay him the money to keep him but now, he's probably gonna have to be dealt before March. He's not worth the price tag and they have more pressing needs...namely on the wing. Fairweather WingFan won't understand all of that because they assumed they would just spend, spend, spend. The Wings are just eating their share of humble pie like the rest of the league. A franchise like Anaheim and Buffalo who can pay a few veterans quite a bit and then fill it in with a bunch of young studs...both squads are thriving right now. I think those two teams are the model of the new NHL...draft and develop your asses off and make smart signings in free agency.

fix · Post by **fix** » Sat Dec 23, 2006 12:19 am

Ken wrote:
Otis wrote:It's not rocket science AQ, the Preds are 23st in attendance in a gate driven league. If the 1st place team (Anaheim) is 21st in attendance and in a major market, what does it say for Nashville's chances of success.

If that's not enough, listen to what Howard Bloom has to say here and start around the 36:00 mark..

They've had other hockey experts on the hockey shows here all week long, all stating the same thing... Pittsburgh's only the 1st to fall.
I should clarify... the Penguin's impending departure is not due to low attendence. For a team that has sucked so freakin' badly, they've had quite good attendence figures, especially this year.

Nobody's questioning that Ken.

The Penguins are suffering from the same problem that the Minnesota North Stars, Winnipeg Jets and Quebec Nordiques had, lack of a new building that the owner tried to have the government build for them and wouldn't pay for to be built.

They all had very loyal fan bases as well. Attendance was never an issue because they were true hockey markets.

Ken · Post by **Ken** » Sat Dec 23, 2006 1:58 am

Otis wrote:
Ken wrote:
Otis wrote:It's not rocket science AQ, the Preds are 23st in attendance in a gate driven league. If the 1st place team (Anaheim) is 21st in attendance and in a major market, what does it say for Nashville's chances of success.

If that's not enough, listen to what Howard Bloom has to say here and start around the 36:00 mark..

They've had other hockey experts on the hockey shows here all week long, all stating the same thing... Pittsburgh's only the 1st to fall.
I should clarify... the Penguin's impending departure is not due to low attendence. For a team that has sucked so freakin' badly, they've had quite good attendence figures, especially this year.
Nobody's questioning that Ken.

I understand, Otis. Just wanted to make sure others didn't construe it otherwise.

AcidQueen · Post by **AcidQueen** » Sat Dec 23, 2006 11:28 am

Otis wrote:It's not rocket science AQ, the Preds are 23st in attendance in a gate driven league. If the 1st place team (Anaheim) is 21st in attendance and in a major market, what does it say for Nashville's chances of success.

And this answers my question in what way?

AcidQueen · Post by **AcidQueen** » Sat Dec 23, 2006 11:31 am

Otis wrote: The Penguins are suffering from the same problem that the Minnesota North Stars, Winnipeg Jets and Quebec Nordiques had, lack of a new building that the owner tried to have the government build for them and wouldn't pay for to be built.

You're wrong about the North Stars. The Minnesota legislature and the City of St. Paul bent over backwards and busted their asses to come up with an arena deal for that team, and Norm Green yanked the rug out from under them at the last minute when he announced that he'd been negotiating a move to Dallas the whole time.

But hey, what do I know right?

fix · Post by **fix** » Sat Dec 23, 2006 5:44 pm

AcidQueen wrote:
Otis wrote:It's not rocket science AQ, the Preds are 23st in attendance in a gate driven league. If the 1st place team (Anaheim) is 21st in attendance and in a major market, what does it say for Nashville's chances of success.
And this answers my question in what way?

Sorry, if you're incapable of putting 1+1 together, that's not my fault. With a league driven by gate attendance and no revenue (of any worth) from tv deals, when you don't have people showing up, buying tickets, the team doesn't make money.
Figure it out yet?

Did you even bother listening to what Howard Bloom had to say?

Are you that insulated down there that you haven't heard of the ongoing legal battles that Powers Management (you do know who they are right?) is having with GEC? (you do know who they are right?)

The Nashville Metro Council has been picking a fight with the Preds front office about a specific clause in the contract that brought the Predators to town. According to the contract, the Predators must maintain a "minimum tangible net worth", the city says it needs to be $28-$30 million. Here's the hitch, the definition of "tangible net worth" has become a bone of contention between the two parties. Metro Nashville claims that the team is not worth the minimum amount and now an at-large Metro Councilman is doing quite a bit of saber-rattling (and no, he's not putting shots on Ryan Miller) about the situation. Of course the Metro accountants are not counting the most valuable asset of all... the employees of the club, last year, the payroll of the Nashville Predators exceeded $30 million. While standard accounting practices don't count employees as tangible assets, in this case, you have to... the worth of a sports team is almost nothing without the players. The last valuation of the Predators as a franchise was $150 million (according to Forbes).

Speaking with a few members of the Pred's front office, they were bewildered at the nasty turn these negotiations took. They could not understand the "scorched earth" policy the Metro Council was taking. Now the front office has swung back... and it's a haymaker!

It appears that Metro Nashville hasn't been living up to its' agreements with the Predators. The team's sister company, Powers Management, is owed over $1 million for equipment used for the GEC and bonus fees for drawing more business to the GEC. According to letters exchanged between the lawyers in the dispute, Powers Management has been renting sound equipment to keep the building's equipment at a minimum so it can be used not just for hockey, but for Nashville's Arena Football League team, concert events, basketball tournaments and award shows that take place at the arena.

fix · Post by **fix** » Sat Dec 23, 2006 5:54 pm

AcidQueen wrote:
Otis wrote: The Penguins are suffering from the same problem that the Minnesota North Stars, Winnipeg Jets and Quebec Nordiques had, lack of a new building that the owner tried to have the government build for them and wouldn't pay for to be built.
You're wrong about the North Stars. The Minnesota legislature and the City of St. Paul bent over backwards and busted their asses to come up with an arena deal for that team, and Norm Green yanked the rug out from under them at the last minute when he announced that he'd been negotiating a move to Dallas the whole time.

But hey, what do I know right?

I'll give you the point that the North Stars attendance had dropped but as far as Green goes...really, others say differently...

Owner Green's mercurial personality and mounting financial and legal problems also began to grate on the area's fan base. Local support for the franchise rapidly dwindled. Finally, with his northern mall empire threatening to fall into receivership and a sexual harassment lawsuit against him working its way through the Minnesota court system, Green demanded concessions for his team that the area and state were unwilling to give, so he moved the team to Dallas, Texas, in the fall of 1993.

Canadian · Post by **Canadian** » Sun Jan 07, 2007 10:24 am

KC did not support NHL last time when that Great team the KC Scouts played. Atlanta looks to be a flop again. Colorado did ok the second time thanks to having stars and having a good team that wins.

Bettman will not allow a team to move to Canada because that is the knob he is. Winnipeg Penguins or even Hamilton Penguins would be good. Those two cities could support NHL.

Portland Oregon, Seattle Wa are two cities that do very well with the Whl and I believe either of those cities could support NHL, especially since the Sonics with their new owners are threatening to move to Oklahoma.

But I suspect Nashville and/or Atlanta will be moving to the Pacific Northwest in a few years if Penguins do not move to Seattle or Portland first.

KC Scott · Post by **KC Scott** » Sat Jan 13, 2007 5:48 am

Canadian wrote:KC did not support NHL last time when that Great team the KC Scouts played.

Colorado did ok the second time thanks to having stars and having a good team that wins.

The Scouts were here for what.... 3 seasons in the 70's?
Then they went to Denver and flopped as the Colorado Rockies before finally setteling in NJ.

The key isn't the city, but the ownership group, the facility, the corporate sponsorship and the marketing of the team.
It's why Hockey succeeds in Carolina, Nashville and Columbus.

KC will be a good home to the Pens - Crosby will be the next George Brett here.

The Assassin · Post by **The Assassin** » Sat Jan 13, 2007 6:14 am

KC Scott wrote:
Canadian wrote:KC did not support NHL last time when that Great team the KC Scouts played.

Colorado did ok the second time thanks to having stars and having a good team that wins.
The Scouts were here for what.... 3 seasons in the 70's?
Then they went to Denver and flopped as the Colorado Rockies before finally setteling in NJ.

The key isn't the city, but the ownership group, the facility, the corporate sponsorship and the marketing of the team.
It's why Hockey succeeds in Carolina, Nashville and Columbus.

KC will be a good home to the Pens - Crosby will be the next George Brett here.

Why is he going to miss time due to hemorrhoids too?