The 3 Main Religions of Abraham suck.

[Q, West Coast Style]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AI1hRxbsno

Period. End of story.

It's all a joke. A tragic joke.

So let's move on. At get past this nonsense.

[Tom In VA]

Seems like a good thread to develop a strategy to do this.

You propose the eradication of all faith in Christianity, Judaism and Islam.


Where do we begin ?


Step 1: Comedy sketches on t.v. ?

[Q, West Coast Style]

Step 1: Comedy sketches on t.v. ?

I'll tell you what. I'll take the moral teachings of the Daily Show over the moral teachings of the Bible every day of the week and twice on "the Lord's Day."

And if more people did the world would be far more peaceful and enlightened and free.

[Tom In VA]

Well I kind of gathered that from your initial post Q. I'm not asking you to justify your argument, I'm trying to engage in an exercise here.

Let's discuss how it could or would be AFTER we get rid of the "3 Religions of Abraham".


You said "So let's move on. At get past this nonsense." The notion genuinely intrigues me.

So

Where do we begin ? Let's develop the thought.

[titlover]

Step 1: Comedy sketches on t.v. ?

I'll tell you what. I'll take the moral teachings of the Daily Show over the moral teachings of the Bible every day of the week and twice on "the Lord's Day."

And if more people did the world would be far more peaceful and enlightened and free.

so if there were no religion the people of the world would act BETTER towards each other?


BWWWWWWHAHAAHAHAAAAHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!

[Mike the Lab Rat]

so if there were no religion the people of the world would act BETTER towards each other?


BWWWWWWHAHAAHAHAAAAHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!

Concur.

People will always find a reason to whack each other, regardless of any hippy-dippy socialist bullshit people may spew.

The fact remains that Jonathan Swift was a better judge of human nature than John Lennon. "Imagine" may be a pretty song but is intellectually naive. I like possessions. Take mine without recompense and I'll whack you.

[BSmack]

People will always find a reason to whack each other, regardless of any hippy-dippy socialist bullshit people may spew.

Agreed. But without organized religion they would have nobody but themselves to blame.

The fact remains that Jonathan Swift was a better judge of human nature than John Lennon. "Imagine" may be a pretty song but is intellectually naive. I like possessions. Take mine without recompense and I'll whack you.

Lennon wasn't exactly in a hurry to give up his possessions either. In fact, I'm certain that he realized when he wrote Imagine that he was describing a utopian ideal, not a realistic idea. His more rabid fans on the other hand...

[Tom In VA]

Well let's focus on on Q's theme here. He didn't say "All Religions" he said the three that generate from the seed of Abraham. That would be Jews first, Christians, then Muslims.

I think with today's mass media and internet we could accomplish this. But how. I think comedy sketches are good, but are they enough ?

[titlover]

People will always find a reason to whack each other, regardless of any hippy-dippy socialist bullshit people may spew.

Agreed. But without organized religion they would have nobody but themselves to blame.

The fact remains that Jonathan Swift was a better judge of human nature than John Lennon. "Imagine" may be a pretty song but is intellectually naive. I like possessions. Take mine without recompense and I'll whack you.

Lennon wasn't exactly in a hurry to give up his possessions either. In fact, I'm certain that he realized when he wrote Imagine that he was describing a utopian ideal, not a realistic idea. His more rabid fans on the other hand...

they have nobody but themselves to blame with religion.

[Q, West Coast Style]

so if there were no religion the people of the world would act BETTER towards each other?

If there was no more big-market big-time organized religion, then yes, people would act better towards each other. Yes, people will always find reasons to hate. But without the dominionist-thought-provoking superstition and money-fueled religious empires there would be a reduction is worldwide, large-scale violence. I think to disagree with THAT is naive.

And for mvscal, you think the Daily Show's moral teachings fall short of this http://www.evilbible.com ?

An idiot would be someone who thinks that that book is a source of peace and harmony and truth and good.



I mean, seriously, have any of you people ever read that thing? How do you justify the endorsement of murder, rape, slavery, genocide and the like? The arbitraty reasons for killing people and sending them to hell?

The GOOD Book? Pfffffff . . . . Please!

[Mike the Lab Rat]

If there was no more big-market big-time organized religion, then yes, people would act better towards each other.

Well, they'd still have economic/territorial reasons to kill each other.

I mean, that cause has killed more folks than all the religious wars...

Yes, people will always find reasons to hate. But without the dominionist-thought-provoking superstition and money-fueled religious empires there would be a reduction is worldwide, large-scale violence. I think to disagree with THAT is naive.

Nope. Since most of your big wars were NOT about religion, but power, territory, money, etc., I don't honestly think there'd be much of a dropoff.

No doubt that religion has been misused to justify a hell of a lot of bad stuff. Hell, there were preachers (largely Presbyterian, which surprised me...) prior to and during the Civil War that not only used the Bible to justify African slavery but who also used Scripture to claim that abolition was evil and contrary to God's ordained plan.

Then again, religion has been properly used to justify doing the "right" thing. Abraham Lincoln went to the religion card (he was apparently a nondenominational Christian...) to counter the pro-slavery arguments.

(I'd have known jack shit about the Civil War-Lincoln Scriptural stuff had it not been for reading "Abraham Lincoln's Political Faith" by Joe Fornieri)

[Diogenes]

Well let's focus on on Q's theme here.

Let's not.

Mockery is all he or it deserves.

[Q, West Coast Style]

the Daily Show's moral teachings

What moral teachings?

Don't blindly follow the crowd. Ask questions. Speak your mind. Work hard. Stand up for those who can't stand up for themselves.

So what if they are taught through the medium of comedy. Beats hell fire and brimstone.

Let me guess. You're about 19 years old?

No, closer to what your age probably is.

[titlover]

the Daily Show's moral teachings

What moral teachings?

Don't blindly follow the crowd. Ask questions. Speak your mind. Work hard. Stand up for those who can't stand up for themselves.

So what if they are taught through the medium of comedy. Beats hell fire and brimstone.

Let me guess. You're about 19 years old?

No, closer to what your age probably is.

you get your moral compass heading from a news parody/comedy show.


wow.

[Tom In VA]

Well let's focus on on Q's theme here.

Let's not.

Mockery is all he or it deserves.

Not really.

[Tom In VA]

the Daily Show's moral teachings

What moral teachings?

Don't blindly follow the crowd. Ask questions. Speak your mind. Work hard. Stand up for those who can't stand up for themselves.

So what if they are taught through the medium of comedy. Beats hell fire and brimstone.

Let me guess. You're about 19 years old?

No, closer to what your age probably is.

But how Q. Your theme is looking a tad bit like you're blindly following the crowd.

Oh, you didn't know ? You aren't the first person in the world to conceive of getting rid of the "3 Religions of Abraham". Hate to burst your bubble, but it's a fact.

They too had trouble doing so. Even mvscal's bright idea of gas, has failed, time and time again.

But maybe your bright and original idea that nobody has ever conceived of before will work. I'm still waiting to here it. Unless of course you're going to have it copyrighted or something.

[Q, West Coast Style]

you get your moral compass heading from a news parody/comedy show.


wow.

No. I got my moral compass from my parents. But the Daily Show is better than the Bible when it comes to moral teachings. If the Bible was a movie released today it would have to be rated NC-17.

Anyone going to address http://www.evilbible.com? Kinda hard isn't it? Easier just to pile on me. I understand. That's why I usually avoid these religious topics. It's hard to argue and reason with people who think an infinitely re-written, X-rated fable is an infallible account of the secrets of the universe and a source of moral guidence.

Tom, I'm not advocating the erradication of religion throgh forced compulsion. I just hope it will fade away through enlightenment and reason, and people coming to their senses. My plea at the befinning of this thread was not a call to arms against religion, but rather a call to those under its control to free themselves.

Then we'd all be better off.

[Tom In VA]

The "evilbible" thing is like preaching to the choir. Yes, there are a ton of things in the bible that make me cringe.

Your proposition that this "enlightenment and reason" is something that has taken place, oft times within the context of religion. Are you proposing to do away with that ?

To many, religion, is the enlightenment they need to act in a manner that YOU would deem appropriate.

I'm not suggesting you implied any other way than "enlightenment and reason", but when you throw out a wholesale indictment against Judiasm, Islam and Christianity, I think you yourself have left the shores of "enlightement and reason" and have embarked on a sea of chaos, i.e.

"Easier just to pile on me. I understand. That's why I usually avoid these religious topics. It's hard to argue and reason with people who think an infinitely re-written, X-rated fable is an infallible account of the secrets of the universe and a source of moral guidence. "

Would you care to enlighten me as to what is NOT good about the 10 commandments ?

[titlover]

you get your moral compass heading from a news parody/comedy show.


wow.

No. I got my moral compass from my parents. But the Daily Show is better than the Bible when it comes to moral teachings. If the Bible was a movie released today it would have to be rated NC-17.

Anyone going to address http://www.evilbible.com? Kinda hard isn't it? Easier just to pile on me. I understand. That's why I usually avoid these religious topics. It's hard to argue and reason with people who think an infinitely re-written, X-rated fable is an infallible account of the secrets of the universe and a source of moral guidence.

Tom, I'm not advocating the erradication of religion throgh forced compulsion. I just hope it will fade away through enlightenment and reason, and people coming to their senses. My plea at the befinning of this thread was not a call to arms against religion, but rather a call to those under its control to free themselves.

Then we'd all be better off.

I think the world is much safer now that Communism has failed.

[Q, West Coast Style]

wholesale indictment against Judiasm, Islam and Christianity

All three religions are pretty much headquartered in the Middle East, and given recent events I think it's apporpriate to put what they teach under the spotlight.

Your proposition that this "enlightenment and reason" is something that has taken place, oft times within the context of religion. Are you proposing to do away with that ?

I'm glad you made this point. It's an important one that I often forget to address in the heated rancor of an internet debate. Looking at religion (organised religion) throughout history, one cannot deny the significance it has had in advancing human thought and contributing to the development of societies. It used to be that the church (an I'm using a Christian example here) was very involved in advocating the search for knowledge. (Ironically, the study of evolution would not be possible had it not been for the genetic work of Gregor Mendel, a monk). As we learned more however, we began to question the absolute authority and infalibility of religion (Galileo, Darwin). The institutions of religion have responded by fighting back and trying to thwart further advances of thought (Evolution debate, age of the earth debate, stem cell debate, cry's against "moral relativism.")

We have reached a point of diminishing returns. The benefits of organized religion are now outweighed by the negatives. The institutions of major religions are now holding us back rather than moving us forward.

Would you care to enlighten me as to what is NOT good about the 10 commandments ?

http://www.evilbible.com/ten_commandments.htm

Also, say you post them in a school. What do you say to the poor kid who's parent or parents have to work on Sunday just to get by?

And thou shall not kill? I have a problem with people who cling to such a phrase with religious ferver, and then proceed to interpret it to mean . . .

"Though shall not kill unless such killing is necessary to liberate Iraq and fight terror."

And hey, I'm not a pacificst per se. Just don't bring around "thou shall not kill" when that's not what you really believe.

You can say, yeah well, it's different during war and stuff. I agree. But we feel it's different because that's what we believe as people. We are interjecting our own personal views into the meaning of the Bible.

ANd once you do that. Just once even. The whole concept of adering to the Bible as an infallible word of God comes apart. The house of cards falls down.

[Q, West Coast Style]

And thou shall not kill? I have a problem with people who cling to such a phrase with religious ferver, and then proceed to interpret it to mean . . .

It is "Thou shall not murder".

Errors tend to creep into translations over time and this is an easy one to make.

Does it define which killings are murder and which are not? If you examined the crriminal codes of all of our 50 states you will find that there are many different definitions of murder. What is the Bible's?

Does it say "murder is a killing not endorsed or excused by that individuals governing state?"

[Q, West Coast Style]

Yes, the Torah defines murder.

Well then at least we know that definition is not going to include killing kids for not honoring their parents. http://www.evilbible.com/ten_commandments.htm

That's cool. Not even the most liberal states are that soft on crime.

[poptart]

I mean, seriously, have any of you people ever read that thing (the Bible)?

Yes.


Q, if you care to bring specific Bible verses to discussion I'd be happy to speak to any of them.

If not, then there is no further input needed from me because that evilbible site's misrepresentations of God's Word are SO far reaching that it would take hundreds of posts to shoot 'em all down.

Make no mistake though, they ALL would be shot to shreds.


Specifics .... ?

[Tom In VA]

So comparing man's behavior 2,000 PLUS some odd years ago to today's is how we get rid of those pesky people seeking comfort, guidance, and structure in on of the 3 religions of Abram ?


Q, you're not following through. And you're not doing a good job enlightening. Pick up the pace, I won't be here much this weekend and I'd like to know if I should go to church on Sunday or not. I'm hoping you can convince me not to, I have a lot of things to do around the house.

[Q, West Coast Style]

C'mon, Tom. The kid is obviously a moron.

If I'm the moron, what does that make people who believe in imaginary men in the sky? Uber-morons?

Mvscal, what is the original definition of "murder" in the Torah. Would like to know what you think it is.

If you subsrice to an organized religion, consider this:

You are conforming your beliefs to things that people just made up a few thousand years ago. Your faith isn't in your religion, it's in the people who have followed your religion before you. The ones that have carried it from the beginning. You must have fait that they were correct, even though they never presented any credible evidence that they were.

You are submitting to them. Scores of people, long dead, are still controlling what you think.

Talk about OWNED!

By the way, if I DID believe the Bible to be the word of God, I would take it literally. So, those of you who don't take it literrally, my question:

Why not? Where in the Bible does it say "don't take this literally."

If you do take it literrally, then you must explain how all of the world's animals got into that ark. And you have to explain why we need bacteria in our gut to survive. Bacteria are seperate living beings from us. Nothing about them in the Bible. Doesn't day God made Adam and the bacteria he needs to survive.

What about fossils, age of the earth, etc etc etc . . .

[Tom In VA]

You are submitting to them. Scores of people, long dead, are still controlling what you think.

Talk about OWNED!

You act as if your thoughts are 100% original. That's delusional Q.

I'm still open to hearing your ideas, the problem is, we both know two things.

1. They won't be your own.
2. They have probably been tried before and failed.


But if you're so "original" and can possibly come up with something totally "Q" that might work .... this is the thread. Let's hear it.

[Q, West Coast Style]

You are submitting to them. Scores of people, long dead, are still controlling what you think.

Talk about OWNED!

You act as if your thoughts are 100% original.

.

Of couse nobody's thoughts are 100% original that's not my point. Just like I never said that the Daily Show was my top sourse for moral guidence. I said that it was a better source than the Bible. Given the ACTUAL TEXT of the Bible I still find that to be true.

But posters try and say that I claim that I am 100% original and that the Dail SHow is my top source for moral guidence. That's an easier position to attack. That's why you guys make such statements.

That fact that most of our thoughts are not original is kidof my point in the larger context. We must be careful where we get our information. My point is that organized reilgion is a poor source for two main reason, 1) it often promotes arbitrary violence againce others, particulary non-believers and 2) there is simply no credible evidence justifying any of the organized religions to act as if they speak on behalf of some supernatural person.

Nobody has yet to defend the text of the Bible. Except mv but I want him to follow up with an explanation of what the Torah defines to be murder.

As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.

Deuteronomy 20:10-14

[poptart]

Nobody has yet to defend the text of the Bible.

That's because you're all over the map, Q.

I asked you to speak to specific Bible verses.

If you do take it literrally, then you must explain how all of the world's animals got into that ark.

Genesis 6:19: And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female.
20: Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive

As told in verse 20, God brought the animals to Noah.

The ark needed to contain a male and a female of every SORT of animal, not 2 of each species or variety.
For example, 2 of the dog 'sort' needed to get in the ark, not 2 of every wolf, coyote, fox, mutt, etc.

What about fossils, age of the earth, etc etc etc . . .

What about it ... ?

[Q, West Coast Style]

Nobody has yet to defend the text of the Bible.

I asked you to speak to specific Bible verses.

As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.

Deuteronomy 20:10-14

As told in verse 20, God brought the animals to Noah.

Are you sure it wasn't the tooth fairy? (By the way, let's say for the sake of argument that there is a God, a male God. He obviously went to all of the trouble of establishing the laws of nature including quantum mechanics, geology, biodiversity and the like. Don't you think the flood story is an insult to the greatness of His work?)

And what about aquatic and amphibious animals? Changes in salinity and turbidity would've wiped most of them out.

What about the Epic of Gilgamesh, how can you be sure that the Bible didn't just adapt this story?

http://www.religioustolerance.org/noah_com.htm

[Q, West Coast Style]

Who, exactly, is using the Old Testament as a guide book to clean living?

The display of the Ten Commandments has been nearly banished from public view. Our children are growing up without society's reinforcement of this timeless message of moral truths

http://www.frc.org/file.cfm?f=KEYWORD&key=TENCOM

Would you care to enlighten me as to what is NOT good about the 10 commandments

[poptart]

(By the way, let's say for the sake of argument that there is a God, a male God. He obviously went to all of the trouble of establishing the laws of nature including quantum mechanics, geology, biodiversity and the like. Don't you think the flood story is an insult to the greatness of His work?)

The Bible tells us that God created all that is in the universe .......... by merely speaking it into existence.

Think of that.

God's greatness can not be fathomed by our pea-sized intellect, so any judgements we pass on what He has done, how it reflects on Him, and the like, is silly in the extreme.

The flood was done for His very good reason.

With all due respect, the only insult here is someone thinking their balls are big enough to question God on His methods.

And what about aquatic and amphibious animals? Changes in salinity and turbidity would've wiped most of them out.

You are basing this on what you observe in the current world. Nobody knows what the water conditions were pre-flood. It's speculation.

Safe to say, however, that the pre-flood world was a much different world than what we see today. The flood was not only caused by rain, as is commonly assumed. No, it was also caused by the breaking up an overhead water 'canopy' and by the breaking of huge 'fountains of the deep' (Genesis 7:11).
Massive earth movements, because of the weight of the water alone, might have resulted in great volcanic activity. Volcanoes let off mucho steam, and underwater lava creates hot water/steam, which dissolves minerals, adding salt to the water. Also, erosion accompanying the movement of water off the continents after the Flood would have added salt to the oceans. When all of this is looked at it can be reasoned that the pre-Flood ocean waters were less salty than they were after the Flood.

Post-flood, fish probably attempted to move to waters that were 'friendly' to them. Those that survived, did. Those that could not, were knocked off.

If you move off of your evilbible site and want to read about this topic from a flood-believing point of view there is information available. Google is your friend (or enemy). haha

What about the Epic of Gilgamesh, how can you be sure that the Bible didn't just adapt this story?

http://www.religioustolerance.org/noah_com.htm

Sure ... ?

The question can just as easily be turned toward you, Q.

How can you be sure that the Bible is not God's word ... ?

Deuteronomy 20:10-14

As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.

Not sure what Bible version that comes out of, Q, but I know I'm not a fan of it. haha

At any rate, I'll put it up in the King James and then give my take on it.

Deuteronomy 20:10: When thou comest nigh unto a city to fight against it, then proclaim peace unto it.
11: And it shall be, if it make thee answer of peace, and open unto thee, then it shall be, that all the people that is found therein shall be tributaries unto thee, and they shall serve thee.
12: And if it will make no peace with thee, but will make war against thee, then thou shalt besiege it:
13: And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword:
14: But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee.


First off, Q, the God in Deuteronomy is the same God who wiped EVERYTHING from off the face of the earth in the flood, so the fact that He advocated killing and 'taking spoils' ought not be terribly surprising, right ... ?

People mistake what the Bible is about.
As with any book, it is MOST critical to look at the beginning to understand it.
Early in Genesis, it is recorded that God provided everything for man's happiness, and He gave him one rule .... not to eat of a certain tree.
We know that man disobeyed and ate, he died spiritually (was separated from God), was destined to die physically, came under the influence of satan, became oppressed under curses, and was destined to go to hell with satan.
The Bible tells us that since ALL men come from the seed of Adam, all are born into his sin and curses.

1John 3:8 says ....... For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Yes, the reason the Christ had to come was to solve this fundamental problem of man.
The rest of the Old Testament (including Deuteronomy which you referenced) is a preparation for the coming Christ, who would solve the problem of mankind.
The Christ would come through the people of Israel, and hence, God moved history, and the history of the people of Israel, for this purpose. God's COVENANT was with the people of Israel. After the Christ came this covenant became with all who believe and receive the Christ.

EVERYTHING worthy is within God's covenant.

This portion of Deuteronomy comes after God brought the Isrealites out of captivity. God had a covenant with those people. He promised to take care of them. For the sake of these people, and for the sake of the present and future covenant, and ultimately for the sake of saving ... YOU YOU YOU YOU

If you read further in Deuteronomy 20 you'll see that God also gave orders for the Israelites to kill the Hittites, the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites.

LOL

And why ... ?

Deuteronomy 20:18: That they teach you not to do after all their abominations, which they have done unto their gods; so should ye sin against the LORD your God

Yes, all of those people were idol worshippers, and God knew the weakness of the Israelites, and that they could once again easily fall into captivity under such people. For the sake of the covenant He couldn't allow that to happen.


The first 2 Commandments are placed there because of their utmost importance, because of God looking out for man's best interest.

1. Thou shalt have no other gods except .... GOD
2. No idol worship

As a tree can not survive out of the ground, man can't survive disconnected from God.
Worship of an idol is worship of satan, and will bring nothing but big time trouble with a capital T.

The Old Testament is a history of the Israelites fuggen up these 2 basic concepts, gettin' in trouble because of it, and God stepping in to save their bacon.


Btw, Idol worship is inevitable for everyone who does not solve their fundamental problem.
This being, they are born into sin and curses.
Separated from God, idol worship happens without exception.


God gave the way out.

[Tom In VA]

God's greatness can not be fathomed by our pea-sized intellect, so any judgements we pass on what He has done, how it reflects on Him, and the like, is silly in the extreme.

The flood was done for His very good reason.

With all due respect, the only insult here is someone thinking their balls are big enough to question God on His methods.

Semper Veritas

[Q, West Coast Style]

'Pastors' the largest congregation in the United States and yet doesn't have balls, brains, or faith enough to stand on the message of Christ . . . the congregation should have off'd him the next day.

viewtopic.php?t=19092



I win.

(Rack and Archive?)

[poptart]

Belief in the risen Christ is a faith.
Man made that faith into a religion, and it largely sucks, yes.

[Diogenes]

'Pastors' the largest congregation in the United States and yet doesn't have balls, brains, or faith enough to stand on the message of Christ . . . the congregation should have off'd him the next day.

viewtopic.php?t=19092



I win.

(Rack and Archive?)

No, you don't.

(No and No.)

[Q, West Coast Style]

Sources also told the Tribune about the strange inscription on one of Cho's arms — the words "ISMAIL AX" in red ink.

The reference may be to the Biblical sacrifice of Abraham, in which God commands the patriarch to sacrifice his own son. Abraham begins to comply, but God intervenes at the last moment to save the boy.

In the Jewish and Christian traditions, the son is Isaac, father of the Jewish people; in Islam, it is his older half-brother, Ismail, or Ishmael in Hebrew.

Abraham uses a knife in most versions of the story, but some accounts have him wielding an ax.

A more obscure reference may be to a passage in the Koran referring to Abraham's destruction of pagan idols; in some accounts, he uses an ax to do so.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,266523,00.html

[Q, West Coast Style]

I die like Jesus Christ

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070418/ap_ ... h_shooting