Euro, your comments...

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Euro, your comments...

Post by Rich Fader »

In a Dentist Shortage, British (Ouch) Do It Themselves
By SARAH LYALL
Published: May 7, 2006

ROCHDALE, England, May 2 — "I snapped it out myself," said William Kelly, 43, describing his most recent dental procedure, the autoextraction of one of his upper teeth.

Now it is a jagged black stump, and the pain gnawing at Mr. Kelly's mouth has transferred itself to a different tooth, mottled and rickety, on the other side of his mouth. "I'm in the middle of pulling that one out, too," he said.

It is easy to be mean about British teeth. Mike Myers's mouth is a joke in itself in the "Austin Powers" movies. In a "Simpsons" episode, dentalphobic children are shown "The Big Book of British Smiles," cautionary photographs of hideously snaggletoothed Britons. In Mexico, protruding, discolored and generally unfortunate teeth are known as "dientes de ingles."

But the problem is serious. Mr. Kelly's predicament is not just a result of cigarettes and possibly indifferent oral hygiene; he is careful to brush once a day, he said. Instead, it is due in large part to the deficiencies in Britain's state-financed dental service, which, stretched beyond its limit, no longer serves everyone and no longer even pretends to try.

Mr. Kelly, interviewed in a health clinic here as he waited for his son to see a doctor, last visited a dentist six years ago, in Sussex.

Since moving to Rochdale, a working-class suburb of Manchester, he has been unable to find a National Health Service dentist willing to take him on.

Every time he has tried to sign up, lining up with hundreds of others from the ranks of the desperate and the hurting — "I've seen people with bleeding gums where they've ripped their teeth out," he said grimly — he has arrived too late and missed the cutoff.

"You could argue that Britain has not seen lines like this since World War II," said Mark Pritchard, a member of Parliament who represents part of Shropshire, where the situation is just as grim. "Churchill once said that the British are great queuers, but I don't think he meant that in connection to dental care."

Britain has too few public dentists for too many people. At the beginning of the year, just 49 percent of the adults and 63 percent of the children in England and Wales were registered with public dentists.

And now, discouraged by what they say is the assembly-line nature of the job and by a new contract that pays them to perform a set number of "units of dental activity" per year, even more dentists are abandoning the health service and going into private practice — some 2,000 in April alone, the British Dental Association says.

How does this affect the teeth of the nation?

"People are not registered with dentists, they can't afford to go private and therefore their teeth are going rotten," said Paul Rowen, the member of Parliament for Rochdale. Rotting teeth and no one to treat them are among his constituents' biggest complaints, up there with gas prices and shrinking pensions. Just 33 percent of the Rochdale population is signed up with a state dentist, down from 58 percent in 1997.

Nor is the level of care what it might be. The system, critics say, encourages state dentists to see too many patients in too short a time and to cut corners by, for instance, extracting teeth rather than performing root canals.

Claire Dacey, a nurse for a private dentist, said that when she worked in the National Health Service one dentist in the practice performed cleanings in five minutes flat.

Moreover, she said, by the time patients got in to see a dentist, many were in terrible shape.

"I had a lady who was in so much pain and had to wait so long that she got herself drunk and had her friend take out her tooth with a pair of pliers," Ms. Dacey said.

Some people simply seek treatment abroad.

"I saw it on the Internet," said Josie Johnson, 42, of London, describing how she heard about a company called Vital Europe, which offers dental-and-vacation packages to Hungary. "It's a quite small country, and I thought, they specialize in dentistry — so that's what I might do."

The dentists she consulted in London told her the four implants she needs would cost 8,000 to 10,000 pounds ($14,900 to $18,600); similar treatment in Budapest costs 3,200 to 4,400 pounds ($5,900 to $8,200), according to VitalEurope.

Beyond that, she said, "I can make a holiday of it."

In Rochdale, people who have no dentist but who are in dire straits can visit an emergency clinic that very day — provided they can get an appointment. The phones open at 8 a.m.; the books are closed by about 8:10.

"We see toothaches through trauma, toothaches through neglect, dental caries, dental abscesses, gum disease," said Dr. Khalid Anis, the clinical leader for the emergency facility, the Dental Access Center. "What we see is shocking."

Dr. Anis enumerated some positive dental developments in Rochdale: a second, soon-to-be-opened clinic; an aggressive community-health program; a political push, finally, to fluoridate the water. But, he said, "sometimes I feel as if I'm hitting my head against a brick wall."

The waiting room at the center was a testament to his concerns. Sitting by the window was George Glasper, 81. One of Mr. Glasper's teeth had broken off a week earlier, but when he called his dentist, he was told the practice had become a private one. Efforts to sign up with four other dentists failed, he said.

Nearby sat Shahana Begum, 27, a Bangladeshi immigrant with a bad toothache and no dentist. Her stepdaughter, Sanya Karim, 16, said her family had been trying to find a health service dentist for six years, since moving to Rochdale from Birmingham.

Occasionally, Miss Karim says, she feels a twinge or an ache, but she tries to ignore it. "It normally goes away in a couple of days," she said.

In extremis, Britons can always buy dental emergency supplies made by a company called Passion for Health DenTek. These include materials that allow people to replace lost fillings, treat gum pain or reattach cracked crowns "until they can actually get in and see a dentist," said Jennifer Stone, the company's sales and marketing director. Sales in Britain have increased by 40 percent in the last year, Ms. Stone said.

A recent Guardian newspaper article about the company titled "D.I.Y. Dentistry" (meaning Do It Yourself) said that the previous week British drugstores had sold 6,000 jars of the filling replacement, and 6,000 of the crown-and-cap replacement.

Ms. Stone, an American, says she is struck by the profound differences in attitudes about dental care in Britain and the United States.

"Prevention and having nice white shiny teeth is a huge priority for us from the moment we're born," she said. "That doesn't seem to be the culture here. You've got a lot of tea drinkers; you've got a lot of staining. In the U.S., we go through a spool of dental floss in six weeks, on average. Here it's a year and a half."

Back in Rochdale clinic, Dr. Anis laughed hollowly when the word came up in connection with his patients, who come from some of the area's most deprived neighborhoods. "Floss?" he said. "That's a good one."
Image

...The aforementioned Mr. Kelly.

WAR nationalized health care. You, too, can have choppers like this man. Or even like this man...

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Post by Van »

Okay, we all know about the stereotype. Probably, we even all buy into it.

I just wanna know how it all got started? How did the Brits ever come to be specifically known for having rotten teeth? Why the Brits, moreso than any other Euro country or, lessee here...China?

Sure seems to me that there's a buttload of snaggle toothed Chinese people too but the reputation still seems to rest squarely with the Brits...
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Post by The Seer »

Van wrote:Okay, we all know about the stereotype. Probably, we even all buy into it.

I just wanna know how it all got started? How did the Brits ever come to be specifically known for having rotten teeth? Why the Brits, moreso than any other Euro country or, lessee here...China?

Sure seems to me that there's a buttload of snaggle toothed Chinese people too but the reputation still seems to rest squarely with the Brits...

Obviously, having the ability to eat corn on the cob through a picket fence is a priority over there....
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Re: Euro, your comments...

Post by BSmack »

Rich Fader wrote:Image

...The aforementioned Mr. Kelly.

WAR nationalized health care. You, too, can have choppers like this man. Or even like this man...

Shane MacGowan
I would argue that Britain no longer has National Health care if they cannot provide care for all their people. The problem is not nationalized health care. The problem is incompetence. Perhaps that explains why English teeth are rotting and yet Tony Blair feels compelled to follow Chimpy to the ends of the earth. Maybe he should be spending some of that money on the health of his own people.
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Post by smackaholic »

Ah yes, the tried and true lib defense to failed social programs. They're just not doing it right.

Did it ever occur to you that maybe, just maybe a private system where one actually pays for a service just might work?

Also, they say that bloke's 43? what kinda fukkin' years are they counting in? 43 Uranus years, maybe.
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Post by BSmack »

smackaholic wrote:Ah yes, the tried and true lib defense to failed social programs. They're just not doing it right. Did it ever occur to you that maybe, just maybe a private system where one actually pays for a service just might work?
You mean like here in the US?

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Did it ever occur to you that almost every other country in Europe has nationalized health care? Also, did it occur to you that most of those countries are doing it BETTER than Britain? Life expectancy charts out front should have told you that.
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Post by Cicero »

Please post your plan for National Healthcare Reform.
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Post by tough love »

Van Ask's:
I just wanna know how it all got started?
Prolly by the same dealio which got the world to believe that all American males have fat heads and tiny dicks.

Just so you know; I most certainly do not subscribe to the Mid_East notion that ALL American females over 16 appear in porn flicks.
Am I wrong...God, I hope so.
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Post by BSmack »

Cicero wrote:Please post your plan for National Healthcare Reform.
Simple. Health care (and energy) should be treated as public commodities and managed for the betterment of all citizens. Period.
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Post by tough love »

BSmack Wrote:
Simple. Health care (and energy) should be treated as public commodities and managed for the betterment of all citizens. Period.
Rack and add, under the penalty of death. Period.

Self_Interest and Greed needs to be stamped out before anything can substantially change for the betterment of all who are supposed to matter.
Pigs need a reason not to be greeding on 'we the people' backs.

I reacon the threat of death would be a decent deterrent.
Am I wrong...God, I hope so.
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Post by Some Damn Retard »

tough love wrote:
BSmack Wrote:
Simple. Health care (and energy) should be treated as public commodities and managed for the betterment of all citizens. Period.
Rack and add, under the penalty of death. Period.

Self_Interest and Greed needs to be stamped out before anything can substantially change for the betterment of all who are supposed to matter.
Pigs need a reason not to be greeding on 'we the people' backs.

I reacon the threat of death would be a decent deterrent.
You'd have to kill every human being on the planet to get rid of "Self_Interest and Greed". Free market provision of health care, or as close to a market economy for the provision of it as you can get, is simply the most effective and efficient way to provide it. Period.
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Post by Taint »

BSmack wrote:
Simple. Health care (and energy) should be treated as public commodities and managed for the betterment of all citizens. Period.

Great Idea!!


Sin,


Image
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Post by BSmack »

Some Damn Retard wrote:You'd have to kill every human being on the planet to get rid of "Self_Interest and Greed". Free market provision of health care, or as close to a market economy for the provision of it as you can get, is simply the most effective and efficient way to provide it. Period.
You're simply wrong. Life expectancy statistics show that countries with nationalized health care do better than those with "free market" systems.
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Post by Some Damn Retard »

BSmack wrote:
Some Damn Retard wrote:You'd have to kill every human being on the planet to get rid of "Self_Interest and Greed". Free market provision of health care, or as close to a market economy for the provision of it as you can get, is simply the most effective and efficient way to provide it. Period.
You're simply wrong. Life expectancy statistics show that countries with nationalized health care do better than those with "free market" systems.
So you make the leap that one causes the other. Flawed logic.

Effective and efficient. Free market economy. Period.
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Post by OCmike »

BSmack wrote:
Some Damn Retard wrote:You'd have to kill every human being on the planet to get rid of "Self_Interest and Greed". Free market provision of health care, or as close to a market economy for the provision of it as you can get, is simply the most effective and efficient way to provide it. Period.
You're simply wrong. Life expectancy statistics show that countries with nationalized health care do better than those with "free market" systems.
Maybe so, but those are also small European countries that are roughly the size of Oregon. It's quite a different task to try something like nationalized healthcare on a scale like ours.
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Post by Van »

Yep. Pretty sure that Denmark doesn't have 12 million illegal aliens alone that would need accounting for, much less a documented population approaching 300 million...

Life expectancy statistics are the result of many more components beyond the simple notion of who's paying for health care.
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Post by BSmack »

Van wrote:Yep. Pretty sure that Denmark doesn't have 12 million illegal aliens alone that would need accounting for, much less a documented population approaching 300 million...

Life expectancy statistics are the result of many more components beyond the simple notion of who's paying for health care.
When 40 countries, all of whom have nationalized health care, rank ahead of the US, I'd say it is a striking endorsement of nationalized health care.

Must suck when results get in the way of your rhetoric.

http://www.os-connect.com/pop/p1.asp?wh ... sort=lepop
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Post by Some Damn Retard »

BSmack wrote:
Van wrote:Yep. Pretty sure that Denmark doesn't have 12 million illegal aliens alone that would need accounting for, much less a documented population approaching 300 million...

Life expectancy statistics are the result of many more components beyond the simple notion of who's paying for health care.
When 40 countries, all of whom have nationalized health care, rank ahead of the US, I'd say it is a striking endorsement of nationalized health care.

Must suck when results get in the way of your rhetoric.

http://www.os-connect.com/pop/p1.asp?wh ... sort=lepop
You really are a dumb mother fucker. By your "logic", none of the other countries ahead of us have a state named "Idaho", therefore if we eliminate "Idaho", our life expectancy would go up.
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Post by BSmack »

Some Damn Retard wrote:By your "logic", none of the other countries ahead of us have a state named "Idaho", therefore if we eliminate "Idaho", our life expectancy would go up.
How much North Syracuse ditchweed did you smoke to come up with that post?

With these 40 countries, we are talking about a sample as large, if not larger than the population of the United States. Try as you might to denigrate them, the results of nationalized health care speak for themselves with the longer lives of those who are lucky enough to have access to a nationalized health care system.
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Post by Y2K »

Christ BSmack...............

You are as lost as JTR when out looking to "Eat at the Y"

You're constantly bitching and whimpering about the Bush Administration and Republicans and their supposed ineptitude and graft and yet you fully support their managing your health care.

Stupid much?
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Post by rozy »

Y2K wrote:Christ BSmack...............

You are as lost as JTR when out looking to "Eat at the Y"

You're constantly bitching and whimpering about the Bush Administration and Republicans and their supposed ineptitude and graft and yet you fully support their managing your health care.

Stupid much?
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Re: Euro, your comments...

Post by Rich Fader »

I'm trying to figure out exactly what kind of life William Kelly's been living to look like this at 43:

Image

I'm about a year younger and I don't look like that. I've been in touch with any number of my high school and college classmates, and they don't look like that. I mean, never mind the clean-living peeps from my Christian high school. I'm talking about the guys in my college fraternity who ingested all kinds of booze and other chemicals, both back in the day and afterwards. They don't look like that. What in hell did this guy do to himself?
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Post by socal »

Van wrote:Okay, we all know about the stereotype. Probably, we even all buy into it.

I just wanna know how it all got started? How did the Brits ever come to be specifically known for having rotten teeth? Why the Brits, moreso than any other Euro country or, lessee here...China?

Sure seems to me that there's a buttload of snaggle toothed Chinese people too but the reputation still seems to rest squarely with the Brits...
How can you be so obtuse?

:lol:

My best guess is that it might it have something to do with English sailors earning the nickname "Limeys" for having to carry a boatload of fruit to ward off the scurvy. Turns out scurvy ain't good for dental hygiene.

sin,

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Atomic Punk wrote:So why did you post it?
Yes, that just happened.
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Post by Van »

BSmack, again, a nation's life expectancy rates are based on many more factors than just who's paying for their health care.

Diet, lifestyles, crime rates, job types, weather, per capita wealth, disease plagues, etc...

Stress levels. Homogenous societies...

Just look at the top of your list there...

1 Andorra
80.56 86.56 83.46

2 Macau S.A.R.
78.80 84.55 81.60

3 San Marino
77.57 85.02 81.14


4 Japan
77.51 84.05 80.70

5 Singapore
77.10 83.23 80.05

6 Australia
76.90 82.74 79.75

7 Guernsey
76.65 82.75 79.65

8 Switzerland
76.73 82.63 79.60


9 Sweden
76.95 82.37 79.58

10 Hong Kong S.A.R.
76.85 82.41 79.54


11 Canada
76.02 83.00 79.43

12 Iceland
77.19 81.77 79.39


13 Italy
75.85 82.41 79.03

14 Gibraltar
76.09 81.96 78.95

15 Cayman Islands
76.10 81.27 78.88

16 Monaco
74.88 83.00 78.84

17 Liechtenstein
75.16 82.47 78.81


18 Spain
75.32 82.49 78.79

19 France
74.85 82.89 78.76

20 Norway
75.73 81.77 78.65

Many of those countries, including the top three, well, they barely count as "countries". They're uniquely privileged principalities.

Not a whole lotta South Central L.A., East St Louis, Watts, New Orleans or Detroit in those countries.

Now, if you wish to make a truer comparison then go ahead and take the mostly privately funded medical plans of the wealthy U.S. enclaves such as Bel Air, Newport Beach or Martha's Vinyard and then let's see what how their life expectancy charts shake out...

Jeez. Twist Stats To Suit You Much?
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Post by BSmack »

Van wrote:BSmack, again, a nation's life expectancy rates are based on many more factors than just who's paying for their health care.
Be that as it may, I offered a cross section of countries with various lifestyles, population types, average incomes etc. whose citizens ALL live longer than those of us in the states. And, aside from longevity, the ONLY thing that these countries can be said to have in common is a nationalized health care system.

Sinking in yet? Or do you need Marcus to explain it further?

BTW: You forgot to list the second page of countries outperforming the US.

21 Israel
22 Jersey
23 Greece
24 Faroe Islands
25 Aruba
26 Netherlands
27 Martinique
28 Virgin Islands
29 Montserrat
30 Malta
31 New Zealand
32 Belgium
33 Guam
34 Austria
35 United Kingdom
36 Saint Pierre and Miquelon
37 Man, Isle of
38 Germany
39 Finland
40 Jordan

Oh, and if you take ALL of these countries. All FOURTY of them, I'd be willing to bet that you would have a population as diverse as that of the United States, if not more so.
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Post by War Wagon »

BSmack wrote: Life expectancy statistics show that countries with nationalized health care do better than those with "free market" systems.
I'd suggest then comrade, that you move to one of those superlative countries.

Pick one where smoking pot is legal.
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Post by Van »

BSamck, not each country individually, you wouldn't. None of those countries individually is nearly the melting pot that the U.S. is...

And again...

21 Israel Tiny, and homogenous.


22 Jersey That's a country like Jess is a film star.

23 Greece

24 Faroe Islands
25 Aruba


Ditto.

26 Netherlands

27 Martinique
28 Virgin Islands
29 Montserrat
30 Malta


:chuckle:

31 New Zealand
32 Belgium

33 Guam Guam is ours anyway, plus it's still tiny and homogenous.

34 Austria
35 United Kingdom

36 Saint Pierre and Miquelon
37 Man, Isle of


Please.

38 Germany
39 Finland

40 Jordan I flat out don't believe it in this case. Makes me wonder about some of the others then if they're listing Jordan too...
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Post by BSmack »

Van wrote:BSamck, not each country individually, you wouldn't. None of those countries individually is nearly the melting pot that the U.S. is...
What is it that you don't get about the collective weight of all 40 of these countries? Taken as a GROUP their total population is both larger and more diverse than the US.

Besides, you just said that Israel was homogenous. You know, the same Israel that was formed by a mass exodus of Jews from ALL OVER THE WORLD. That statement alone shows me how little you understand.

As for the European countries, maybe you have missed the last 50 years of world history, but Europe ain't exactly 100% white bread anymore. And perhaps you missed this little thing called the European Union and the open borders that have come with it?

Seriously, how about you go find yourself a history book and a few days to read it and maybe you can get up to speed on this?

So, back to the point at hand, life expectancy statistics still show nationalized health care with better results than our US system no matter how much you kick, scream and nitpick at the results.
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Post by smackaholic »

BSmack wrote:
Van wrote:BSamck, not each country individually, you wouldn't. None of those countries individually is nearly the melting pot that the U.S. is...
What is it that you don't get about the collective weight of all 40 of these countries? Taken as a GROUP their total population is both larger and more diverse than the US.

Besides, you just said that Israel was homogenous. You know, the same Israel that was formed by a mass exodus of Jews from ALL OVER THE WORLD. That statement alone shows me how little you understand.

As for the European countries, maybe you have missed the last 50 years of world history, but Europe ain't exactly 100% white bread anymore. And perhaps you missed this little thing called the European Union and the open borders that have come with it?

Seriously, how about you go find yourself a history book and a few days to read it and maybe you can get up to speed on this?

So, back to the point at hand, life expectancy statistics still show nationalized health care with better results than our US system no matter how much you kick, scream and nitpick at the results.
I think that healthcare systems have jack shit to do with it.

We in america are victims of our prosperity. There are two things that we do more of than just about anybody. Drive and get fat. It is our prosperity that allows this. The average middle class Euro walks to the bus/train station in the morning. We walk to the driveway. Then we get in our rigs and drive....very badly in many cases. Unfortunately driving is looked on as a constitutional right and no one gives two shits how badly you do it. Turn signal? What's that. Try that shit in germany. The cops will nail you for staying in the left lane too long. This horrible driving results in plenty of 24 year olds wrecking the death age curve. It also results in us not getting any exercise.
They also tend to eat a whole lot less. Some of this is cultural. Some of it is due to the fact that we have a very cheap, very plentiful food supply. I am reminded of this as I sit in the cafe at break time. The born and raised americans go straight for the vending machine for some garbage. The eastern euro types we have here usually have an orange or an apple.

Do you really believe that there is a significant number of folks dieing because they can't afford health coverage? There are those that die because they chose not to. Sux for them. I'll take my chances with a system where I pay and don't need to worry about being rationed out of real critical care.
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Post by BSmack »

smackaholic wrote:Do you really believe that there is a significant number of folks dieing because they can't afford health coverage? There are those that die because they chose not to. Sux for them. I'll take my chances with a system where I pay and don't need to worry about being rationed out of real critical care.
I guess we know which side of the fence you are on.

Among the countries surveyed, (United States. United Kingdom, Australia, Canada, and New Zealand) the U.S. stands out for income-based disparities in patient experiences, with below-average-income U.S. adults reporting the worst experiences—compared with their counterparts in the other four countries—on most measures of primary care access, coordination, and doctor-patient relationships.

So you want yours and you don't give a damn about anybody else. How very Republican of you.
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Post by Some Damn Retard »

BSmack has offered no evidence that nationalized health care is what impacts life expectancy.

Other items his feeble brain probably won't comprehend:

Quality of care will be higher in a free market economy, as profit is what drives innovation.

His analysis is limited to one measurement. He ignores the fact that life expectancy is rising in America, as it is in most of the world. Certainly a more meaningful statistic than his one snapshot in time approach. Suggests to me that America must be doing something right.

Availability of care is higher in a free market economy. Obviously, ability to pay impacts this. As with other products and services, the most efficient way to deliver unlimited wants to limited resources is our old friend, free market economy. It is a waste of resources to provide services to some element of the population. Do you trust the government to make these decisions with an unlimited amount of your resources?
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Post by BSmack »

Some Damn Retard wrote:BSmack has offered no evidence that nationalized health care is what impacts life expectancy.
If you could follow a thread as well as you spew diarrhea, you would know that the life expectancy comment was as a response to the fallacy that nationalized health care is "a failure".

Some failure it is when 40 countries with nationalized health care are sporting a higher life expectancy than the US and it's privatized system.
Other items his feeble brain probably won't comprehend:

Quality of care will be higher in a free market economy, as profit is what drives innovation.
You're not reading the links I drop are you?

Try again.

Although a lack of health insurance intensified the disparities, with uninsured U.S. adults often forgoing needed care, insurance coverage does not level the playing field. Even when insured, below-average-income Americans under the age of 65 were more likely to report access problems and delays than insured, above-average-income adults.

Even when lower income people ARE insured, they still don't get the same level of care that people get in countries with nationalized systems.
His analysis is limited to one measurement. He ignores the fact that life expectancy is rising in America, as it is in most of the world. Certainly a more meaningful statistic than his one snapshot in time approach. Suggests to me that America must be doing something right.
No, it suggests that doctors around the world are doing more things right than they used to.
Availability of care is higher in a free market economy.


Absolute bullshit. 40 million uninsured Americans out front should have told you that.
Obviously, ability to pay impacts this. As with other products and services, the most efficient way to deliver unlimited wants to limited resources is our old friend, free market economy. It is a waste of resources to provide services to some element of the population. Do you trust the government to make these decisions with an unlimited amount of your resources?
Now you're just spewing crap for the sake of spewing. Since when is it a "waste" to provide life sustaining services to "some element" of the population? Typical fucking Republican.

BTW: I see our infant mortality rate is hovering around that of Latvia?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060509/ap_ ... _mortality

Yet another stunning sucess story. :meds:
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Re: Euro, your comments...

Post by Nishlord »

BSmack wrote:
Rich Fader wrote:Image

...The aforementioned Mr. Kelly.

WAR nationalized health care. You, too, can have choppers like this man. Or even like this man...

Shane MacGowan
I would argue that Britain no longer has National Health care if they cannot provide care for all their people. The problem is not nationalized health care. The problem is incompetence. Perhaps that explains why English teeth are rotting and yet Tony Blair feels compelled to follow Chimpy to the ends of the earth. Maybe he should be spending some of that money on the health of his own people.
Dead. On.

The NHS was the trade-off the newly-elected Labour government made with the people of Britain after World War Two, along with an extensive building programme. Until Margaret Thatcher, it worked perfectly and was the best damn thing this country ever did for its people. Still does, in many cases - medicine is kept at a low price, and if you're lucky enough to live in the same place for a long time, you can walk into a surgery and get treated.

Problem is, too many dentists and doctors are packing in working for the NHS and going private because they charge extorionate rates. Personally, I pay for dental work because I can afford it these days, and because the waiting lists are fucking ridiculous. Tony Blair has only made the situation worse.
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Re: Euro, your comments...

Post by Nishlord »

BSmack wrote:
Rich Fader wrote:Image

...The aforementioned Mr. Kelly.

WAR nationalized health care. You, too, can have choppers like this man. Or even like this man...

Shane MacGowan
I would argue that Britain no longer has National Health care if they cannot provide care for all their people. The problem is not nationalized health care. The problem is incompetence. Perhaps that explains why English teeth are rotting and yet Tony Blair feels compelled to follow Chimpy to the ends of the earth. Maybe he should be spending some of that money on the health of his own people.
Dead. On.

The NHS was the trade-off the newly-elected Labour government made with the people of Britain after World War Two, along with an extensive building programme. Until Margaret Thatcher, it worked perfectly and was the best damn thing this country ever did for its people. Still does, in many cases - medicine is kept at a low price, and if you're lucky enough to live in the same place for a long time, you can walk into a surgery and get treated.

Problem is, too many dentists and doctors are packing in working for the NHS and going private because they charge extorionate rates. Personally, I pay for dental work because I can afford it these days, and because the waiting lists are fucking ridiculous. Tony Blair has only made the situation worse.
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Post by Dr_Phibes »

BSmack wrote:]

If you could follow a thread as well as you spew diarrhea, you would know that the life expectancy comment was as a response to the fallacy that nationalized health care is "a failure".
You're on fire today, B.

Life expectancy in the US stands at 77, as does Cuba. RACK 'Taint' as-well, under Stalin in the fifties, it sky-rocketed to 75 and today under the free market, fifty years later, it stands at just under 70 - despite the fact he killed 7.57 trillion people. You'll also find that life expectancy numbers rise and fall on par with other related subjects - infant mortality, literacy etc - depending on the system of government. UNESCO can an excellent resource for this sort of thing.

And Van, you're an idiot.

"Not a whole lotta South Central L.A., East St Louis, Watts, New Orleans or Detroit in those countries. "

So you are implying that poverty and ethnicity drag down US stats when compared to nations full of poverty and ethnicity? Then say that they are the exception to the rule and ignore modern industrial nations like the U.K., Germany, Australia who operate at a lower level of the free market? :lol:
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Post by Van »

Dr Phibes, again, look at his list there...
1 Andorra
80.56 86.56 83.46

2 Macau S.A.R.
78.80 84.55 81.60

3 San Marino
77.57 85.02 81.14


4 Japan
77.51 84.05 80.70

5 Singapore
77.10 83.23 80.05

6 Australia
76.90 82.74 79.75

7 Guernsey
76.65 82.75 79.65

8 Switzerland
76.73 82.63 79.60


9 Sweden
76.95 82.37 79.58

10 Hong Kong S.A.R.
76.85 82.41 79.54


11 Canada
76.02 83.00 79.43

12 Iceland
77.19 81.77 79.39


13 Italy
75.85 82.41 79.03

14 Gibraltar
76.09 81.96 78.95

15 Cayman Islands
76.10 81.27 78.88

16 Monaco
74.88 83.00 78.84

17 Liechtenstein
75.16 82.47 78.81


18 Spain
75.32 82.49 78.79

19 France
74.85 82.89 78.76

20 Norway
75.73 81.77 78.65

Many of those countries, including the top three, well, they barely count as "countries". They're uniquely privileged principalities.

Not a whole lotta South Central L.A., East St Louis, Watts, New Orleans or Detroit in those countries.

Now, if you wish to make a truer comparison then go ahead and take the mostly privately funded medical plans of the wealthy U.S. enclaves such as Bel Air, Newport Beach or Martha's Vinyard and then let's see what how their life expectancy charts shake out...

Jeez. Twist Stats To Suit You Much?
What I said remains true. There's not a lot of endemic poverty on that list, is there? The life expectancy rate in East St Louis isn't going to be as high as it is in Bel Air, is it?

Moreover, again, who's paying for the health care is hardly much of an indicator of a nation's life expectancy rate. Among all the factors that go into such a statistic one of the least pertinent would be who's paying for the health care, the government or the private sector?

Way down the list, that...
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Post by smackaholic »

I think the point van is trying to make is that a good chunk of the life expectancy problems are not a result of anyone, even poorer folks having a lack of access to quality health care. It is more a result of arseholes killing one another along with doing other really stupid things diet related or health related.

And here's a question for nish. What happens to the bloke not lucky enough to meet the requirements you admit to for proper care.

I've moven a number of times and yet, I get the health care I need. Just this wednesday, the wife went in for some rather minor knee surgery (torn miniscus). It took about a week or two from getting scheduled to actually happening.

Wonder how long it would take the average euro to get this done? I'm guessing it would be awhile. If you must wait around for heart surgery, minor annoying things like a knee must really have to wait.
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Post by BSmack »

smackaholic wrote:I think the point van is trying to make is that a good chunk of the life expectancy problems are not a result of anyone, even poorer folks having a lack of access to quality health care. It is more a result of arseholes killing one another along with doing other really stupid things diet related or health related.
5.6 out of every 100,000 people are murdered on a yearly basis. The impact that has on life expectancy is infinitesimal.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article ... 12&did=169
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Post by Van »

Van wrote:BSmack, again, a nation's life expectancy rates are based on many more factors than just who's paying for their health care.

Diet, lifestyles, crime rates, job types, weather, per capita wealth, disease plagues, etc...

Stress levels. Homogenous societies...
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Post by BSmack »

Van wrote:
Van wrote:BSmack, again, a nation's life expectancy rates are based on many more factors than just who's paying for their health care.

Diet, lifestyles, crime rates, job types, weather, per capita wealth, disease plagues, etc...

Stress levels. Homogenous societies...
There are 40 million people in this country playing health care roulette because they have no insurance of any kind. If you think that those people are somehow better off than people in a nationalized system, you are out of your fucking mind.

Also, I have already posted (and you have ignored) evidence showing that even those who are insured, but who are of lower income, also have lower levels of care than those in nationalized systems.

But hey, all of this evidence obviously points to a higher life expectancy?

:meds:
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