Clemens

Jack · Post by **Jack** » Mon Aug 29, 2005 12:58 am

Astros manage no runs, seven hits for Clemens

It was the eighth time in Clemens' 27 starts this season the Astros were shut out, and the fifth time by a 1-0 score -- including three games that went extra innings.

Clemens is 11-6 with an ERA of 1.51 and 167 K's.

He is worthy of the Cy Young IMO but will probably not get it because his team can't hit their way out of a paper bag!!

Chris Carpenter will most likely get the Cy this year. Dontrelle has an outside shot but Clemens is worthy of an 8th Cy Young and the only reason he won't get it is his piss poor offensively challenged team...

The Assassin · Post by **The Assassin** » Mon Aug 29, 2005 1:03 am

I disagree. That ERA is unbelievable. also the fact he is 43 and pitching like he was 23.

RSoxFan · Post by **RSoxFan** » Mon Aug 29, 2005 1:45 am

How many wins a pitcher gets in a season is so overrated. Clemens deserves the Cy Young Award.

Shoalzie · Post by **Shoalzie** » Mon Aug 29, 2005 2:21 am

RSoxFan wrote:How many wins a pitcher gets in a season is so overrated.

It would've helped me.

Sincerely,
Randy Johnson in 2004

PrimeX · Post by **PrimeX** » Mon Aug 29, 2005 2:57 am

Dude has enough, and this year Carpenter deserves it. He atleast fields a competitive team behind him AND the guy is a bonafide stud on the mound.

Jake Peavy will be the CY 2006. Just a FYI because I am smart.

Jack · Post by **Jack** » Mon Aug 29, 2005 4:02 am

Dontrelle is 18-8 with a 2.61 ERA with 130 K, 6 CG and 5 Shut Outs.

Carpenter is 18-4 with a 2.34 ERA with 178 K, 6CG and 4 Shut outs. Carpenter has gone at least eight innings in 11 of his last 13 starts.
He has won 10 straight decisions.

Clemens has pitched only 1 CG and has no shutouts.

*********************************************
All 3 are great. Carpenter is the best.

The Cy Young Award was Commissioner Ford Frick's idea to honor the best pitcher in Major League Baseball. Hard lessons were learned by the Chalmers Award earlier in history so the recipients of the Cy Young Award were selected by the Baseball Writers Association of America from the beginning. Note: During the first eleven (11) years (1956 - 1966), only one winner from each league was selected. Immediately after Commissioner Frick retired, the rules were changed to honor the best pitcher from each league.

Bizzarofelice · Post by **Bizzarofelice** » Mon Aug 29, 2005 1:12 pm

The Assassin wrote:also the fact he is 43 and pitching like he was 23.

not a factor in deciding the best pitcher.

rozy · Post by **rozy** » Mon Aug 29, 2005 3:12 pm

Stro fan says:

Carpenter

JHawkBCD · Post by **JHawkBCD** » Mon Aug 29, 2005 5:59 pm

Jack wrote: Clemens has pitched only 1 CG and has no shutouts.

But how many of those games did he leave in the 7th inning without allowing a run, in order to bring in a pinch hitter to try to inject a spark into the flacid lineup?

Regardless... the name "Cy Young" is synonymous with total wins, so Carpenter still gets the nod... but Clemens' season offers a far better argument than any fucking relief pitcher's season ever did.

Cicero · Post by **Cicero** » Tue Aug 30, 2005 1:09 am

Carpenter deserves it. I want to see Clemens take a piss test on live TV.

4 king guy · Post by **4 king guy** » Tue Aug 30, 2005 1:26 am

Cicero wrote:Carpenter deserves it. I want to see Clemens take a piss test on live TV.

Sounds a little gax to me!!

Do you really want to see Clemens take a piss??

http://www.Clemensfetishes.com

Rack Fu · Post by **Rack Fu** » Tue Aug 30, 2005 1:51 am

The Cy Young is awarded to the best pitcher in each league, not necessarily the pitcher with the best record on the best team.

This is just one man's opinion but considering ERA, average against, slugging % and OPS (all of which Clemens has a considerable advantage over Carpenter), it's should be Clemens. He shouldn't be penalized for the fact that the Astros' offense totally sucks and sucks even more whenever he pitches. If Clemens pitched for the Cards, he'd probably be 22-2 right now and there would be no discussion. If Carpenter pitched for the Astros and got Clemens' run support, he'd be a .500 pitcher.

Nothing against Carpenter but Clemens is having a freak season.

Rack Fu · Post by **Rack Fu** » Tue Aug 30, 2005 2:00 am

Shoalzie wrote:
RSoxFan wrote:How many wins a pitcher gets in a season is so overrated.

It would've helped me.

Sincerely,
Randy Johnson in 2004

I felt that Johnson deserved it in '04.

rozy · Post by **rozy** » Tue Aug 30, 2005 2:30 am

Rack Fu wrote:

He shouldn't be penalized for the fact that the Astros' offense totally sucks and sucks even more whenever he pitches.

Ultimately irrelvant

If Clemens pitched for the Cards,

He doesn't

he'd probably be 22-2 right now

He's not

and there would be no discussion.

What discussion? Carpenter is the Cy Young winner this year.

If Carpenter pitched for the Astros

He doesn't

and got Clemens' run support,

He doesn't :x

he'd be a .500 pitcher.

He's not

Nothing against Carpenter but Clemens is having a freak season.

Absolutely. And he would be the first to tell you that Carpenter should win.

Nolan Ryan was similarly (by comparison to the league in that year) dominant in 1987. Unbelievable numbers. INCREDIBLE numbers. Except for the 8-16 record.

Clemens should have won it last year and did. This year, the Astros have a losing record when he takes the mound. Just like the D'Backs had last year when R.J. took the mound. You play the game to win. You take the mound to win. Not make stats. Johnson shouldn't have been in the top 5 for Cy last year, just like Clemens shouldn't be this year. The team is not winning when he takes the mound. Period. The only real discussion is how much should Dontrelle be considered against Carpenter.

Sin-
Just an Honest Strofan

Rack Fu · Post by **Rack Fu** » Tue Aug 30, 2005 2:46 am

You take the mound to win but awards are basically given for statistical accomplishments. You'd be kidding yourself if you thought otherwise.

Bizzarofelice · Post by **Bizzarofelice** » Tue Aug 30, 2005 4:58 pm

Rack Fu wrote:If Carpenter pitched for the Astros and got Clemens' run support, he'd be a .500 pitcher.

What is the difference in ERA between these two pitchers? Is that difference so great that the win totals would be different?

Nothing against Carpenter but Clemens is having a freak season.

Nothing against Clemens but so is Carpenter. Go ahead and put the stats next to each other.

Shoalzie · Post by **Shoalzie** » Tue Aug 30, 2005 5:07 pm

Rack Fu wrote:
Shoalzie wrote:
RSoxFan wrote:How many wins a pitcher gets in a season is so overrated.

It would've helped me.

Sincerely,
Randy Johnson in 2004
I felt that Johnson deserved it in '04.

RACK you...I'm glad I wasn't the only one.

Shoalzie · Post by **Shoalzie** » Tue Aug 30, 2005 5:11 pm

My pick goes to Carpenter...he's having a Santana-like season. Clemens is a freak of nature but it's hard to overlook Carpenter's performance.

helmet · Post by **helmet** » Tue Aug 30, 2005 10:43 pm

My quick stab at a run-support-neutral analysis puts Carpenter at 18-5 and Clemens at 14-3. Too close to call, really. The Cardinals have scored 143 runs in Carpenter's starts; the Astros have scored 90 in Clemens'.

http://runsupportindex.blogspot.com/ for methods, etc.

Sky · Post by **Sky** » Tue Aug 30, 2005 11:56 pm

The Assassin wrote:I disagree. That ERA is unbelievable. also the fact he is 43 and pitching like he was 23.

The ERA is great but pitching like you are 23 doesn't mean shit. There are no consideration points for age in voting...simply performance.

Still, as much as I don't like him, he has done an amazing job and his team should feel ashamed.

rozy · Post by **rozy** » Wed Aug 31, 2005 2:22 am

Rack Fu wrote:You take the mound to win but awards are basically given for statistical accomplishments. You'd be kidding yourself if you thought otherwise.

I'm not kidding myself and that is way too broad a statement. The statistical accomplishments are and always will be tempered by Scoreboard. The number one STAT used to determine Cy Young is, always has been, and always will be WINS. ERA and Ks factor heavily but wins is always #1.

Shoalz, I'm being consistent here. You have no choice but to back Clemens this year in light of your cognitively challenged efforts at defending R.J. last year. Be consistent, dude. There are better arguments for Clemens this year than there were for Johnson last year.

Rack Fu · Post by **Rack Fu** » Wed Aug 31, 2005 11:37 pm

Bizzarofelice wrote:
Rack Fu wrote:If Carpenter pitched for the Astros and got Clemens' run support, he'd be a .500 pitcher.
What is the difference in ERA between these two pitchers? Is that difference so great that the win totals would be different?

Nothing against Carpenter but Clemens is having a freak season.
Nothing against Clemens but so is Carpenter. Go ahead and put the stats next to each other.

ERA:
Clemens 1.51
Carpenter 2.29

K/9:
Clemens 8.15
Carpenter 8.07

WHIP:
Clemens .92
Carpenter .98

BAA:
Clemens .184
Carpenter .214

OPS:
Clemens .502
Carpenter .579

Slugging %:
Clemens .262
Carpenter .324

JHawkBCD · Post by **JHawkBCD** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 12:13 am

IP
Clemens 184.1
Carpenter 204

CG
Clemens 1
Carpenter 6

SHO
Clemens 0
Carpenter 4

Nice to know that you can give your bullpen a break every now & then with Carpenter.

And then, the final scobode...

WINS
Clemens 11
Carpenter 19

Rack Fu · Post by **Rack Fu** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 1:45 am

Hey, dude is 43... gotta cut him some slack in the endurance department. :P

UcantSpellCarlosLeeStyle! · Thu Sep 01, 2005 12:33 pm

rozy wrote:The number one STAT used to determine Cy Young is, always has been, and always will be WINS.

RACK!!!

Sin,
Bob fucking Welch??

Sorry FU, rozy is right. Clemens already lost one CY with arguably better stats.

Turdmaker · Post by **Turdmaker** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 3:23 am

Simply, Clemens will not win enough games this year because of his team's horseshit offense. Carpenter can't sniff his jock, let alone wear it, but he'll win the CY unless he turns to shit or Dontrelle Willis strings together an incredible run which he's capable of doing.

rozy · Post by **rozy** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 6:55 pm

Clemens vs. Carpenter straight up tonight.

Funny thing is Dontrelle still may have plenty to say on this subject.

helmet · Post by **helmet** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 2:44 pm

Carp got the best out of that matchup....it's a shame Klemens tore a hangnail or whatever.

indyfrisco · Post by **indyfrisco** » Wed Sep 07, 2005 5:40 pm

Stros fan checking in.

Carpenter will win and deserves it. I don't have the numbers handy, but I would be willing to bet that most of Carpenter's ERA comes in the 6th, 7th or 8th innings.

If Clemens had the same record and all other stats the same as well except for his IP equaled Carpenter's, then I would say he deserves the Cy. However, he leaves in the 6th or 7th every game.

If I were Clemens, I'd blame the GM. The Astros did NOTHING to attempt to fill the holes left by Kent and Beltran nor have they done ANYTHING to fill 1B the last 3 years that Bagwell's arm was hanging on by nothing more than a torn tendon.

P.S. Florida WILL win the wild card...unfortunately.

Adelpiero · Post by **Adelpiero** » Wed Sep 07, 2005 9:25 pm

IndyFrisco wrote:
P.S. Florida WILL win the wild card...unfortunately.

nope

Houston still has 7 games with the quitter Cubs, 6 against Milwaukee, 2against a resting cardinals, and 3 against Fla at home, and 4 against Pirates!

they have a very favorable matchup

Florida has:
2 series against ATL
1 series against NY
2 series against PHIlly
1 series against Wash
1 series against Hou
not a favorable schedule 4 of 5 opponents are still in wild hunt!

Houston is the fav in my book!

indyfrisco · Post by **indyfrisco** » Thu Sep 08, 2005 5:38 pm

As a lifelong Astros fan, Houston has never failed to disappoint me.

My money's on the Marlins...even though I hactually havemoney on the Astros. My 14-1 $50 Vegas ticket to win the Series is burning a hole in my pocket. My 12-1 ticket last year did too though.

indyfrisco · Post by **indyfrisco** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 5:29 pm

Still sticking with the Marlins.

indyfrisco · Post by **indyfrisco** » Wed Sep 14, 2005 6:47 pm

Yep, Marlins looking good.

Adelpiero · Post by **Adelpiero** » Sun Oct 02, 2005 11:25 pm

Adelpiero wrote:
IndyFrisco wrote:
P.S. Florida WILL win the wild card...unfortunately.
nope

Houston still has 7 games with the quitter Cubs, 6 against Milwaukee, 2against a resting cardinals, and 3 against Fla at home, and 4 against Pirates!

they have a very favorable matchup

Florida has:
2 series against ATL
1 series against NY
2 series against PHIlly
1 series against Wash
1 series against Hou
not a favorable schedule 4 of 5 opponents are still in wild hunt!

Houston is the fav in my book!

Like i said, Houston had the easiest route, and won like they should of.

Props to Rozy and others for sockling Floridas overrated pitching staff.