Flag Desecration...Again???

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Flag Desecration...Again???

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House Approves Flag-Burning Amendment
WASHINGTON - The House on Wednesday approved a constitutional amendment that would give Congress the power to ban desecration of the American flag, a measure rejected twice by the Senate in the past decade but expected to get a closer vote this year.

By a 286-130 vote — eight more than needed — House members approved the amendment by the required two-thirds majority after a debate over whether such a ban would run afoul of the Constitution's free-speech protections.

If approved by a similar two-thirds majority in the Senate, the amendment would then move to the states for ratification. It would have to be approved by three-fourths, or 38, of the 50 state legislatures to become the 28th amendment to the Constitution.

Sixty-three senators, four short of two-thirds needed, voted for the amendment in 1995 and again in 2000. With Republicans increasing their majority in last fall's election, activists on both sides of the issue said the amendment has its pass chance ever of passing this year. But a rough count by The Associated Press shows 34 — one more than needed to defeat it — either as having voted against the amendment in the past or committed publicly to opposing it.

Supporters said the measure reflected patriotism that deepened after the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist attacks, and they accused detractors of being out of touch with public sentiment.

"Ask the men and women who stood on top of the (World) Trade Center," said Rep. Randy (Duke) Cunningham, R-Calif. "Ask them and they will tell you: pass this amendment."

But Rep. Jerrold Nadler (news, bio, voting record), D-N.Y., said, "If the flag needs protection at all, it needs protection from members of Congress who value the symbol more than the freedoms that the flag represents."

The measure was designed to overturn a 1989 decision by the Supreme Court, which ruled 5-4 that flag burning was a protected free-speech right. That ruling threw out a 1968 federal statute and flag-protection laws in 48 states. The law was a response to anti-Vietnam war protesters setting fire to the American flag at their demonstrations.

The proposed one-line amendment to the Constitution reads, "The Congress shall have power to prohibit the physical desecration of the flag of the United States." For the language to be added to the Constitution, it must be approved not only by two-thirds of each chamber but also by 38 states within seven years.

Each time the proposed amendment has come to the House floor, it has reached the required two-thirds majority. But the measure has always died in the Senate, falling short of the 67 votes needed.

But last year's elections gave Republicans a four-seat pickup in the Senate, and now proponents and critics alike say the amendment stands within a vote or two of reaching the two-thirds requirement in that chamber.

By most counts, 65 current senators have voted for or said they intend to support the amendment, two shy of the crucial tally. More than a quarter of current senators were not members of that chamber during the last vote.

The Senate is expected to consider the measure after the July 4th holiday
Why is this nonsense again becoming an issue? Whay it is dumb:

1) A flag is personal property and I should be able to do with it what I want. Of course, the state frequently puts restrictions on how I can use personal property, but they really need a better reason than it upsets people or it is disprespctful.

2) There are already fighting words laws in place for those who are desecrating the flag for the purpose of inciting a riot.

3) Burning the flag is legitimate political expression and should never be supressed by the governement. Dissent from every dimension of the political spectrum must be allowed to speak as they feel, it is a necessary requirement for a free and democratic society.

The main thing of course is that this reeks of partisan politics, so anyone voting against can be labeled as un-patriotic.
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Post by Shlomart Ben Yisrael »

Burning flag dialogue in Congress = GOOD

Burning humvee dialogue in the media = BAD

Deflect, ignore, obfuscate, bury, gloss over, supress, downplay....
You know the story.
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Post by Variable »

3) Burning the flag is legitimate political expression and should never be supressed by the governement. Dissent from every dimension of the political spectrum must be allowed to speak as they feel, it is a necessary requirement for a free and democratic society.
1. Burning the flag is not speech. Speech comes from the larynx. They've already classified money as speech, which is equally retarded.

2. Anyone who hates this country enough to burn the flag should get the fuck out. It's a cliche`, but true.

3. They burn the flag enough in Iran for all of us.

4. People don't really fight this because they want to burn the flag, they fight it because they don't want to be told they can't do something, which is really asinine. I know, slippery slope. Next they'll be burning books and kicking down our doors, blah blah blah.

5. There are thousands of ways to protest the government, including burning the leader in effigy (if I blew the spelling on that, blow me).

6. By burning the flag, you insult every person dead or living that ever fought for it.

7. Just about any sovereign country you can think of bans the burning of their flag in their country. It's a matter of respect. This isn't exactly a revolutionary concept.

Want more?
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Post by Shlomart Ben Yisrael »

"1. Burning the flag is not speech. Speech comes from the larynx. They've already classified money as speech, which is equally retarded."


Does holding up your big, stupid purple finger qualify as free speech / free expression?

"People don't really fight this because they want to burn the flag, they fight it because they don't want to be told they can't do something..."

Horror of horrors! :shock:
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Post by Shlomart Ben Yisrael »

"Just about any sovereign country you can think of bans the burning of their flag in their country. It's a matter of respect. This isn't exactly a revolutionary concept. "

No country on the planet fetishizes flag worship like you guys. You've taken it to a bizarre, ritualistic projection of superstition, devoid of context or reason.
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Post by Variable »

Free expression? Sure. I'd love to see the passage of the Constitution that guarantees that.

I'll be over here waiting. ------------------>
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Post by Shlomart Ben Yisrael »

Variable wrote:Free expression? Sure. I'd love to see the passage of the Constitution that guarantees that.

I'll be over here waiting. ------------------>
1st Amendment.

Speech is expression.
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Post by Variable »

No, it's not. Speech comes from the larynx. That's why the founding fathers sought fit to add "Freedom of the Press" as a seperate item.
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Post by Mister Bushice »

Disagree, and I think that the "Free speech" portion of the first amendment has been interpreted to cover symbolic and written forms of speech.
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Post by Shlomart Ben Yisrael »

Variable wrote:No, it's not. Speech comes from the larynx. That's why the founding fathers sought fit to add "Freedom of the Press" as a seperate item.
So I guess if you're mute, you don't have that right.

You interpret the Constitution like the Taliban interprets the Qu'uran.
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Post by Variable »

Bushice wrote:Disagree, and I think that the "Free speech" portion of the first amendment has been interpreted to cover symbolic and written forms of speech.
Yes, it's been interpreted by those with an agenda to suit their purposes. There's a difference between that and what the intent was. I love people who try to say, "Well how do we know what they meant by 'speech'?" Gee, I don't want to go out on a limb here, but maybe they meant "speech." The "what did they mean" argument is no different than saying, "that depends on what your definition of 'is' is."
So I guess if you're mute, you don't have that right.
No, you still have the right, you just can't use it.
You interpret the Constitution like the Taliban interprets the Qu'uran.
Right. Literally, rather than figuratively or symbolically.
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Post by BSmack »

Variable wrote:4. People don't really fight this because they want to burn the flag, they fight it because they don't want to be told they can't do something, which is really asinine. I know, slippery slope. Next they'll be burning books and kicking down our doors, blah blah blah.
And you WANT to be told to do something? The whole point of this "Democratic Republic" was to have as few limitations on personal freedom as possible. If you are going to violate that principle, you had better have a compelling reason to do so.

And no, hurt feelings are not enough.
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Post by Dr_Phibes »

No biggie. I'll burn enough for all of us.
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Post by Shlomart Ben Yisrael »

Variable wrote:
So I guess if you're mute, you don't have that right.
No, you still have the right, you just can't use it.
I feel stupid for having wasted my time responding to you. That may be the single most retarded thing I've read on T1B this week.
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Post by BSmack »

Martyred wrote:
Variable wrote:
So I guess if you're mute, you don't have that right.
No, you still have the right, you just can't use it.
I feel stupid for having wasted my time responding to you. That may be the single most retarded thing I've read on T1B this week.
Not reading Detard this week?
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Post by Mister Bushice »

Variable wrote:
Bushice wrote:Disagree, and I think that the "Free speech" portion of the first amendment has been interpreted to cover symbolic and written forms of speech.
Yes, it's been interpreted by those with an agenda to suit their purposes. There's a difference between that and what the intent was. I love people who try to say, "Well how do we know what they meant by 'speech'?" Gee, I don't want to go out on a limb here, but maybe they meant "speech." The "what did they mean" argument is no different than saying, "that depends on what your definition of 'is' is."
Unfortunately for you the courts do not interpret it literally.

There are hundreds, if not thousands of free speech cases on record that were tried in court and exhibit a wide range of interpretations on free speech.
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Post by Variable »

I feel stupid for having wasted my time responding to you. That may be the single most retarded thing I've read on T1B this week.
Spend more time reading your own posts.

Anyone who thinks "speech" is anything other than "speech" is a fucking retard.
There are hundreds, if not thousands of free speech cases on record that were tried in court and exhibit a wide range of interpretations on free speech.
And that makes it right? The supreme court makes decisions by majority, in most cases based on whether there are more libs than cons on it.
BSmack wrote:And you WANT to be told to do something?
This is a nation of laws. There are thousands upon thousands of laws all over the country describing things you can't do.
The whole point of this "Democratic Republic" was to have as few limitations on personal freedom as possible. If you are going to violate that principle, you had better have a compelling reason to do so.

And no, hurt feelings are not enough.
Really? I thought the whole point of this "Democratic Republic" was to escape monarchial rule and establish government of the people, by the people, etc. As much as you'd like to pretend it was, this wasn't King George declaring flag burning to be against the law or unconstitutional, this was the United States Congress.

A compelling reason? How about shitting on the graves of all those who have fought to defend that flag? To me, that's a compelling reason. Sadly, it's not to most here.
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Post by Variable »

Actually jerking your cock is Constitutionally protected speech. The Supreme Court said so.
Yeah, but they also said that dookie statues were art, so there goes their crediblity. :lol:
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Post by BSmack »

Variable wrote:
BSmack wrote:And you WANT to be told to do something?
This is a nation of laws. There are thousands upon thousands of laws all over the country describing things you can't do.
And for each of those proscriptions, there is a reason directly related to public saftey, national security or the common good.

Feel free to show me where proscibing flag burning will accomplish any of those three.

And don't tell me it will save some commie from getting his ass kicked by some retarded redneck. That doesn't count.
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Post by Variable »

And for each of those proscriptions, there is a reason directly related to public saftey, national security or the common good.

Feel free to show me where proscibing flag burning will accomplish any of those three.

And don't tell me it will save some commie from getting his ass kicked by some retarded redneck. That doesn't count.
I've already said why. If that's not a good enough reason for you, then it makes a huge statement about who you are as a person.
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Post by Tom In VA »

I say let the pampered children burn their flags.

That way we know who they are.
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Post by Mike the Lab Rat »

If we want to get "literalist," then how 'bout this:

Desecration refers to profaning a SACRED object.

The status flag-worshippers are according Old Glory will not only require a new AMENDMENT but a new COMMANDMENT.

By the way.....flags don't have rights, only people do.
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Post by Tom In VA »

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - P. J. O'Rourke"

And that explains Variables post. Sure, you can claim your right to burn the flag all you want, but if this bill passes the Senate, you can claim your consequences for breaking the law as well.
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Post by RadioFan »

Rack Tom and Mike.

Btw, Variable, maybe while Congress is at it, they can go ahead and have the Department of Homeland Security shut down this page, along with any and all web sites even showing flags being burned.
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Post by Variable »

Mister, I like the way you think. :wink:
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Post by Mister Bushice »

protest is a right of free speech.

Did you even read that site?
know you're all upset about the attacks on America. But responding by removing freedoms is a very drastic and wrong direction of your efforts. Peaceful protest is NOT a threat to America. When you allow terrorists to convince you that you need to crack down on freedom -- they have won.

I respect the flag as much as any of you do. Believe me. I don't burn it. I don't plan to. But I don't want to see peaceful American citizens thrown in jail. And I don't want to see the current situation used as leverage in a debate that ought to be conducted rationally and logically. Seriously -- if we are going to modify the constitution and remove part of the First Amendment, we need to think that through -- not act out of anger or fear in the heat of passion.

We don't need an amendment to the constitution. We need to show the enemy that we will not stoop to their levels. In America, we don't put people in jail for protesting against the government. That's what they do in Afghanistan, China, or Iraq.
The point being is individuals right to FREE SPEECH should have NO LIMITS if they do not represent a threat to public safety or other individuals.

I would never burn the flag and I consider it an insult when people burn ours, but we're walking a fine line here designating something like the flag as a holy artifact.

The BA and congress and meshing religion and patriotism at the expense of our first amendment rights.

I don't expect it will stand. Someone will contest it and the SC will strike it down.
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Post by Variable »

The point being is individuals right to FREE SPEECH should have NO LIMITS if they do not represent a threat to public safety or other individuals.
Right, but there ARE limits. You can't tell a cop to fuck off, you can't say you want to kill the President. Putting that aside, I don't think T. Jefferson & co. meant anything beyond "speech" when they said "speech." Back then you could get thrown in jail for saying crap about the King and I think they were speaking out against THAT. Why is it so hard to believe that?
I would never burn the flag and I consider it an insult when people burn ours, but we're walking a fine line here designating something like the flag as a holy artifact.
1. "Holy artifact" is a gross distortion. We're talking about a matter of respect, to me anyway.

2. Your argument is no better than some chick from HR with a sticker on her cubicle that says, "I'm against the war, but support the troops."
The BA and congress and meshing religion and patriotism at the expense of our first amendment rights.
NO argument there at all. I think Bush does overstep his bounds in an effort to shape the US into his vision of how things ought to be. That type of thinking is best left to the fringe idealistic tards in the Democratic Party. However, we disagree on the flag issue.
I don't expect it will stand. Someone will contest it and the SC will strike it down.
Probably.
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Post by RadioFan »

Variable wrote:You can't tell a cop to fuck off,
Yes you can, under a variety of circumstances.
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Post by Variable »

Fine. "Fire" in a theater. Sheesh! Dinsdale channeling you or something? :D
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Post by Tom In VA »

Mister Bushice wrote:protest is a right of free speech.
Unless of course you're protesting the killing of unborn babies outside Dr. Mengele's Family Planning Office.

Granted, that was overturned, how many years, pain and dollars later ?


I say, whatever the House and Senate say, is law. If people feel that strongly about burning a flag then they shouldn't mind the possible consequences for breaking a LAW. Millions of other protesters haven't.

Maybe it's time some of these spoiled shits actually paid for some of the rights they abuse and take for granted.



Like I said, let 'em burn it. Flush the fuckers out.
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Post by RadioFan »

Variable wrote:Fine. "Fire" in a theater. Sheesh! Dinsdale channeling you or something? :D
I've been reading more and posting less. My ego has grown considerably. :P
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Post by Variable »

Flush the fuckers out.
It's the same PETA/Greenpeace/EarthFirst douchebags that protest everything by going to such extremes that no one takes them seriously.
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Post by Mister Bushice »

Variable wrote:
The point being is individuals right to FREE SPEECH should have NO LIMITS if they do not represent a threat to public safety or other individuals.
Right, but there ARE limits. You can't tell a cop to fuck off,
Yes you can. You will probably be arrested, but legally, unless swearing is a citable offense, you can if youare doing nothing illegal.
you can't say you want to kill the President.
By making that statement you have now become a threat to public safety, so no, you cannot say that.
Putting that aside, I don't think T. Jefferson & co. meant anything beyond "speech" when they said "speech." Back then you could get thrown in jail for saying crap about the King and I think they were speaking out against THAT. Why is it so hard to believe that?
The constitution was worded carefully, so as not to create limitations. The limits you speak of are socially motivated, generated out of public opinion of thetimes, which is essentially free speech. We would not be here without it. Just because you disagree with the message, or the messenger, it is the method to educate and inform, to at least allow others to form their own opinion. That is their right and again, as long as no laws are broken and no one's life is threatened, you can practice your right to free speech.
I would never burn the flag and I consider it an insult when people burn ours, but we're walking a fine line here designating something like the flag as a holy artifact.
1. "Holy artifact" is a gross distortion. We're talking about a matter of respect, to me anyway.
respect is not a matter of law.
2. Your argument is no better than some chick from HR with a sticker on her cubicle that says, "I'm against the war, but support the troops."
hey. It's a major step up from the vietnam mentality. Now it's sort of like saying to the troops "It's not your fault", sort of a good will hunting from afar.
The BA and congress and meshing religion and patriotism at the expense of our first amendment rights.
NO argument there at all. I think Bush does overstep his bounds in an effort to shape the US into his vision of how things ought to be. That type of thinking is best left to the fringe idealistic tards in the Democratic Party. However, we disagree on the flag issue.
obviously.

but not the fringe idealistic tard part. ;)
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Post by Mikey »

Variable wrote:
6. By burning the flag, you insult every person dead or living that ever fought for it.
People don't fight for "the flag". They fight for their country.
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Post by Mikey »

Main Entry: 1speech
Pronunciation: spch
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): -es
Etymology: Middle English speche, from Old English sp[AE]c, spc, spr[AE]c, sprc; akin to Old High German sprhha speech, Old English sprecan, specan to speak -- more at SPEAK
1 a : the act of speaking : communication or expression of thoughts in spoken words <speech is a means of producing in our hearers the images which are in us -- Bertrand Russell> b : interchange of spoken words : CONVERSATION, TALK <wayfarers, after a first greeting, frequently plod on for miles without speech -- Thomas Hardy> <wanted to have speech with him and could not -- Arnold Bennett> c : the sounding or speaking of a musical instrument d : a form or method of expression or communication <so profound and poignant is his musical speech that there is no other eloquence like it -- A.T.Davison> <if another ship ever broke into speech with flags or lamp, most ships' officers of that time panicked -- Gavin Douglas>
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Post by BSmack »

Variable wrote:
And for each of those proscriptions, there is a reason directly related to public saftey, national security or the common good.

Feel free to show me where proscibing flag burning will accomplish any of those three.

And don't tell me it will save some commie from getting his ass kicked by some retarded redneck. That doesn't count.
I've already said why. If that's not a good enough reason for you, then it makes a huge statement about who you are as a person.
You have given no compelling reason why the government should proscribe flag burning.

In fact, neither have the proponents of flag burning laws. That's why those laws were ruled to be unconstitutional.

Think about it.

BTW: I am looking forward to the first arrest of a VFW Post for flag burning.
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Post by KatMode »

What a fucking waste of time and taxpayer money. Jesus, this is the 7th time this dumbass amendment has been rehashed. No wonder shit is not getting accomplished in the legislature.
"The Congress shall have power to prohibit the physical desecration of the flag of the United States."
Let's start with...

What constitues "the flag"? 13 stripes and 50 stars? What about older flags? What about Confederate flags? What if the colors are not red, white, and blue? What if I paint a flag on a log and burn the log? What if I burn my T-shirt that has the flag on it? What if my house catches fire and several flags burn? What if I burn something and realize there was a flag in it? What constitutes "desecration"? (the definition is to violate the sacredness of something). What would constitute "violate"? So are bikinis made out of a flag desecration? What about when the flag gets frayed from flying? Is that descration? Would the President autographing the flag be a form of descration? What about drawing a flag on a piece of paper, then shredding it? Is that desecration?

And on and on and on.

:?
BSmack
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Post by BSmack »

KatMode wrote:What a fucking waste of time and taxpayer money. Jesus, this is the 7th time this dumbass amendment has been rehashed. No wonder shit is not getting accomplished in the legislature.
"The Congress shall have power to prohibit the physical desecration of the flag of the United States."
Let's start with...

What constitues "the flag"? 13 stripes and 50 stars? What about older flags? What about Confederate flags? What if the colors are not red, white, and blue? What if I paint a flag on a log and burn the log? What if I burn my T-shirt that has the flag on it? What if my house catches fire and several flags burn? What if I burn something and realize there was a flag in it? What constitutes "desecration"? (the definition is to violate the sacredness of something). What would constitute "violate"? So are bikinis made out of a flag desecration? What about when the flag gets frayed from flying? Is that descration? Would the President autographing the flag be a form of descration? What about drawing a flag on a piece of paper, then shredding it? Is that desecration?

And on and on and on.

:?
STOP MAKING SENSE!

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KatMode
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Post by KatMode »

Image

DESECRATION!!

:lol: :lol:
BSmack
2005 and 2010 JFFL Champion
Posts: 29342
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Post by BSmack »

KatMode wrote:Image

DESECRATION!!

:lol: :lol:
That's why WalMart demaded the pibic hair be airbrushed out. They is some patriotic rednecks down in Bentonville.
"Once upon a time, dinosaurs didn't have families. They lived in the woods and ate their children. It was a golden age."

—Earl Sinclair

"I do have respect for authority even though I throw jelly dicks at them.

- Antonio Brown
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