Who, in your lifetime, transcended the sport, changed the way it is played, or had an exceptional impact?
"The sport was one way, and then _____________ came, and it became another way!"
Name one player or coach for each category.
Briefly explain your selection.
NBA -
NFL -
MLB -
NHL - Other Sports -
Re: Transcendent Sports Figures
Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2020 12:25 pm
by smackaholic
The only person that comes to mind would probably be Bill Walsh. He implemented the West Coast O.
He and the hoodie have stacked Lombardis like cordwood since. Both used low round QBs who didn't have "NFL arms".
I have heard this term used for Gretzky, but I don't really think it applies. Hockey has become pussified over the years, but that is more societal than the fault of any one person.
Re: Transcendent Sports Figures
Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2020 12:55 pm
by Slap
Pornography was one way, and then Peter North came, and it became another way!
Re: Transcendent Sports Figures
Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2020 1:04 pm
by Mikey
Wilt the Stilt
Re: Transcendent Sports Figures
Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2020 1:06 pm
by Screw_Michigan
smackaholic wrote: ↑Tue Apr 21, 2020 12:25 pm
I have heard this term used for Gretzky, but I don't really think it applies. Hockey has become pussified over the years, but that is more societal than the fault of any one person.
The sport's extinction was on the line, you god forsaken knuckle dragger.
Also, Derek Boogard and Bob Probert and countless "enforcers" that sacrificed their brains and lives for your primal entertainment would like a word with you, but they can't because, you know, they're dead.
Re: Transcendent Sports Figures
Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2020 1:07 pm
by Screw_Michigan
Also...NHL's all time leading goal scorer by a country mile isn't transcendent? No one accused you of knowing jack shit about hockey.
Re: Transcendent Sports Figures
Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2020 1:22 pm
by Left Seater
I’ll agree with Screwy on the Great One.
In basketball I would think it would be one of the centers that had 3 point range and helped turn the game from a center posted up down low and lobbing the ball into him. Maybe someone like Laimbeer. Then again it is the NBA and I don’t follow it.
For the NFL I will go with Air Coryell and Fouts. They helped move the NFL away from the plodding run games to wide open offenses.
Baseball, I don’t give a rats ass.
Re: Transcendent Sports Figures
Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2020 1:33 pm
by Softball Bat
NBA - Magic Johnson
Magic (with Larry) rescued the NBA from the abyss. A 6'9'' point guard who could pass and handle the ball like him was... revolutionary. He had mad game, a singular style, great determination, charisma, a friendly personality, and a huge smile that could light up a room. A champion, and was the perfect fit for L.A.
NFL - This was the toughest one. Tom Landry
20 straight winning seasons, 5 Super Bowl appearances, and 2 Super Bowl wins. Much of the growth, maturity, and success of the NFL in the '80s and '90s came about as a result of teams following after trends that Landry began. Computers, situational substitutions, plentiful use of the shotgun formation, multiple offensive formations with creative play-calls, the flex defense, etc. Truly one of the great innovators -- and a big winner.
MLB - Pete Rose
Charlie Hustle was relentless. Broke Ty Cobb's all-time hit record. Had the 44 game hit streak that captivated the nation in 1978. Had a unique style and approach to the game, was a winner and champion. Captivated the nation again with his gambling scandal, prison term, and Hall of Fame ban. The most compelling MLB player of my lifetime.
NHL - Wayne Gretzky
I don't know hockey, but I know Gretzky. Is the all-time NHL points leader, and it isn't even close. Is almost 1,000 pts ahead of #2 (J. Jagr). Totally dominant.
Other Sports - Tiger Woods, Muhammad Ali
Tiger was well on his way to shattering Jack's majors record... before his dick got in the way. Whenever Tiger (in his prime) was competing, there was a buzz on the course. He had a level of skill that had not been seen before, he was a fierce competitor, and he had a flare for the dramatic shot. A golf madman.
Ali was Ali. The greatest. Legendary fights, tremendous heart and will. Incredible hand and foot speed for a heavyweight. His charisma and personality, combined with his great ability made him THE biggest sports draw of his era. A phenomenal smack runner -- ahead of his time.
Re: Transcendent Sports Figures
Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2020 1:43 pm
by smackaholic
Screw_Michigan wrote: ↑Tue Apr 21, 2020 1:07 pm
Also...NHL's all time leading goal scorer by a country mile isn't transcendent? No one accused you of knowing jack shit about hockey.
I am not doubting the greatness of The Great One, but I don't see how he really changed it. Same goes for MJ or Wilt in the NBA. Yes, they were great, but they didn't really change the game.
Regarding NBA, you might argue George Mikan. The rules were changes (3 second rule) to keep him from camping out under the rim. That was a change in how it was played.
smackaholic wrote: ↑Tue Apr 21, 2020 12:25 pm
I have heard this term used for Gretzky, but I don't really think it applies. Hockey has become pussified over the years, but that is more societal than the fault of any one person.
The sport's extinction was on the line, you god forsaken knuckle dragger.
Also, Derek Boogard and Bob Probert and countless "enforcers" that sacrificed their brains and lives for your primal entertainment would like a word with you, but they can't because, you know, they're dead.
Like I said, dumbfukk, it was a societal thing. Society said we have to do something to keep these fukking guys from murdering one another.
Re: Transcendent Sports Figures
Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2020 1:51 pm
by smackaholic
Softball Bat wrote: ↑Tue Apr 21, 2020 1:33 pmNBA - Magic Johnson
Magic (with Larry) rescued the NBA from the abyss. A 6'9'' point guard who could pass and handle the ball like him was... revolutionary. He had mad game, a singular style, great determination, charisma, a friendly personality, and a huge smile that could light up a room. A champion, and was the perfect fit for L.A.
NFL - This was the toughest one. Tom Landry
20 straight winning seasons, 5 Super Bowl appearances, and 2 Super Bowl wins. Much of the growth, maturity, and success of the NFL in the '80s and '90s came about as a result of teams following after trends that Landry began. Computers, situational substitutions, plentiful use of the shotgun formation, multiple offensive formations with creative play-calls, the flex defense, etc. Truly one of the great innovators -- and a big winner.
MLB - Pete Rose
Charlie Hustle was relentless. Broke Ty Cobb's all-time hit record. Had the 44 game hit streak that captivated the nation in 1978. Had a unique style and approach to the game, was a winner and champion. Captivated the nation again with his gambling scandal, prison term, and Hall of Fame ban. The most compelling MLB player of my lifetime.
NHL - Wayne Gretzky
I don't know hockey, but I know Gretzky. Is the all-time NHL points leader, and it isn't even close. Is almost 1,000 pts ahead of #2 (J. Jagr). Totally dominant.
Other Sports - Tiger Woods, Muhammad Ali
Tiger was well on his way to shattering Jack's majors record... before his dick got in the way. Whenever Tiger (in his prime) was competing, there was a buzz on the course. He had a level of skill that had not been seen before, he was a fierce competitor, and he had a flare for the dramatic shot. A golf madman.
Ali was Ali. The greatest. Legendary fights, tremendous heart and will. Incredible hand and foot speed for a heavyweight. His charisma and personality, combined with his great ability made him THE biggest sports draw of his era. A phenomenal smack runner -- ahead of his time.
Some good takes here, especially Landry. He might be regarded as the first modern coach. The shotgun is the rule today but anyone around in the 70s knew that the shotgun was that thing the 'boys did.
As for the athletes you point out, yes they were very good, but I'm not sure you could say they changed the game. They just mastered it.
Re: Transcendent Sports Figures
Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2020 2:00 pm
by smackaholic
Screw_Michigan wrote: ↑Tue Apr 21, 2020 1:07 pm
Also...NHL's all time leading goal scorer by a country mile isn't transcendent? No one accused you of knowing jack shit about hockey.
I just went and looked up the definition of transcendent. I was under the impression that transcendent had more to do with change. Apparently, it does not. Merely being better at something than others is sufficient.
So I plead guilty to being a dumbfukk in this instance.
So, now that I understand better what it means-
MLB-Babe Ruth, Willie Mays
NBA-Wilt, Russell, MJ, Kobe, Magic, Bird
NHL- The Great One, Bobby Orr
NFL- Jim Brown, Walter Peyton, Landry, Walsh, The Hoodie
Golf-Jack, Tiger
Re: Transcendent Sports Figures
Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2020 2:40 pm
by Left Seater
In hockey we could also go with Jacques Plante who was the first to really play the puck as a goalie and also the first to wear a mask.
Re: Transcendent Sports Figures
Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2020 3:01 pm
by Mikey
For golf, I'd say Arnold Palmer more than anybody else. Even more than Tiger.
Along with Nicklaus and Player (and the beginning of national TV broadcasts of PGA tournaments), they were instrumental in popularizing golf into a commercially viable product.
Especially Arnie, though, with his working class background and popular charisma, "The King" changed the image of golf from an elite upper-class pastime into something that "everyman" could pursue, not just as fans but as participants.
And 'holic is correct about "transcendent." It doesn't (necessarily) mean the same as GOAT. Not by a long shot.
Re: Transcendent Sports Figures
Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2020 3:09 pm
by Screw_Michigan
Left Seater wrote: ↑Tue Apr 21, 2020 2:40 pm
In hockey we could also go with Jacques Plante who was the first to really play the puck as a goalie and also the first to wear a mask.
Good call. Patrick Roy inspired 30 years of butterfly style goaltending of which we still see variants of today.
Re: Transcendent Sports Figures
Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2020 3:52 pm
by Smackie Chan
NBA - Wilt Chamberlain: "Precipitated many rules changes. These rules changed included widening the lane, instituting offensive goaltending and revising rules governing inbounding the ball and shooting free throws"
NFL - Deacon Jones: Coined the term sack, which led to a new quantitative stat used to gauge defensive players' value and effectiveness. Caused untold brain damage to offensive linemen as a result of head slaps.
MLB - Bob Gibson: His dominance was largely responsible for the pitchers mound being lowered. One of, if not the first, black pitchers to give no shits about reactions from other players and fans about throwing at white batters in retaliation (or just for the helluvit)
NHL - Wayne Gretzky: Made hockey relevant in LA
Other Sports -
Boxing: Muhammad Ali, for reasons in and out of the ring too numerous for me to list due to chronic laziness
NASCAR - Dale Earnhardt: Due largely to his popularity, his death accelerated use of enhanced safety features such as HANS device and "soft" walls
Formula 1: Ayrton Senna: Same reasons as Earnhardt
Re: Transcendent Sports Figures
Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2020 4:15 pm
by Diego in Seattle
Of course I have to agree with the naming of Don Coryell & Dan Fouts. But I don't think one can mention those names w/o including Kellen Winslow. Winslow changed the TE position from almost strictly a lineman position to be as much a receiver.
Re: Transcendent Sports Figures
Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2020 4:18 pm
by Left Seater
Sure add Winslow. Good call.
Re: Transcendent Sports Figures
Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2020 4:46 pm
by The Big Pickle
Michael Jordan
Vince Lombardi
Tiger Woods
Hank Aaron
Hockey....NOBODY!
Re: Transcendent Sports Figures
Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2020 7:05 pm
by EAP
Magic. Bird, Jordan.
In 1980, if you wanted to watch the NBA finals, it WASN'T even live, it was on tape delay.
After those 3, it became mainstream.
Wayne Gretzky.
This guy has records that will never be broken unless hell freezes over.
Babe Ruth
Even the name of this larger than life figure conjures up images of a juggernaut, a game changer.
My personal favorite is Nolan Ryan. Holy shit! This guy was a freak of nature.
Arnie, the golden bear, tiger.
3 transformative figures, if ever there were transformative figures who changed the game forever.
Muhammed Ali.
When he used his brain to overcome the dangerous George Foreman, I knew he was special.
Richard Petty.
Put Nascar on the map.
Elvis.
His initial sound at sun studio, was black blues fused with white country.
In a segregated society, this must have been from MARS!
THE black culture infused with white culture in this 19 year old punk kid, was fresh new exciting and progressive.
REVELATORY to this day
Go to YouTube and marvel at these exciting sun sessions.
Then realize, that over such a very brief period, his voice and style would cross over multiple genres of music. Leaving behind a critically acclaimed body of work in the recording studio.
Soul depth and diversity.
Transformative and iconic.
That's all for now. I'm spent.
Re: Transcendent Sports Figures
Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2020 8:24 pm
by Mikey
Papa Willie wrote: ↑Tue Apr 21, 2020 4:34 pm
In my lifetime, I’d say:
NBA: Wilt. 50.4 ppg says “I have fucked up your world”. Rules changed because of him.
MLB: Really tough here, but I think I might go along with Smackie on Bob Gibson. There was an extreme fear factor with him. 1.12 ERA in ‘68 is just obscene. Being somewhat a homer, I’d have to stick Greg Maddux right up there as well. In ‘95, he went 19-2 with a 1.63 ERA. He was the best “pitching” pitcher ever IMO.
NFL: Jim Brown
NHL: Hate hockey, but The Great One.
Others: Ali and Nicklaus.
If we were including college basketball I would have considered Lew Alcindor.
For one thing, the NCAA banned the dunk for 10 years because of him.
Scored 56 points in his first varsity game, and UCLA went 88-2 during his three seasons (freshmen couldn't play on the varsity back then).
During his freshman season, the UCLA freshmen team beat the varsity team 75-60 in the the first game at Pauley Pavillion with Alcindor scoring 31 points with 21 rebounds. The varsity team won the NCAA title that year.
Re: Transcendent Sports Figures
Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2020 11:32 pm
by Softball Bat
Mikey wrote: ↑Tue Apr 21, 2020 3:01 pm
For golf, I'd say Arnold Palmer more than anybody else. Even more than Tiger.
Along with Nicklaus and Player (and the beginning of national TV broadcasts of PGA tournaments), they were instrumental in popularizing golf into a commercially viable product.
Especially Arnie, though, with his working class background and popular charisma, "The King" changed the image of golf from an elite upper-class pastime into something that "everyman" could pursue, not just as fans but as participants.
And 'holic is correct about "transcendent." It doesn't (necessarily) mean the same as GOAT. Not by a long shot.
Very good take.
Arnie was before my time.
Re: Transcendent Sports Figures
Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2020 11:39 pm
by Softball Bat
Smackie Chan wrote: ↑Tue Apr 21, 2020 3:52 pm
NBA - Wilt Chamberlain: "Precipitated many rules changes. These rules changed included widening the lane, instituting offensive goaltending and revising rules governing inbounding the ball and shooting free throws"
NFL - Deacon Jones: Coined the term sack, which led to a new quantitative stat used to gauge defensive players' value and effectiveness. Caused untold brain damage to offensive linemen as a result of head slaps.
MLB - Bob Gibson: His dominance was largely responsible for the pitchers mound being lowered. One of, if not the first, black pitchers to give no shits about reactions from other players and fans about throwing at white batters in retaliation (or just for the helluvit)
NHL - Wayne Gretzky: Made hockey relevant in LA
Other Sports -
Boxing: Muhammad Ali, for reasons in and out of the ring too numerous for me to list due to chronic laziness
NASCAR - Dale Earnhardt: Due largely to his popularity, his death accelerated use of enhanced safety features such as HANS device and "soft" walls
Formula 1: Ayrton Senna: Same reasons as Earnhardt
Good takes, Smackie.
Deacon also appeared on the Brady Bunch. :)
Re: Transcendent Sports Figures
Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2020 11:40 pm
by Softball Bat
Diego in Seattle wrote: ↑Tue Apr 21, 2020 4:15 pm
Of course I have to agree with the naming of Don Coryell & Dan Fouts. But I don't think one can mention those names w/o including Kellen Winslow. Winslow changed the TE position from almost strictly a lineman position to be as much a receiver.
Winslow is a good call.
He (and the Coryell offense) was ahead of his time.
Re: Transcendent Sports Figures
Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2020 11:51 pm
by Wolfman
Agree with SC about Wilt. They even made a rule that you couldn't take off from the foul line and dunk a free throw, although Wilt only did it in practice. Also because of Wilt the lane was made wider and you were not permitted to inbound under the basket.
Re: Transcendent Sports Figures
Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 12:21 am
by Slap
Softball Bat wrote:Tiger was well on his way to shattering Jack's majors record... before his dick got in the way.
That's why I have never been a great one.
Re: Transcendent Sports Figures
Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 12:30 am
by smackaholic
Rack SC for his comments about Gibson.
His 68 season culminating in his world series performance are just incomprehensible to today's fans. He was the baddest motherfukker to ever stand on the mound.
He was part excellent pitcher, part ruthless terrorist!!!! Anyone in the box looking out at Gibson wind up had in his mind the thought, "this mvscal's gonna try to kill me!!!!"
It was mindfukking at the highest level.
Wonder how his terrorism would play today?
I suspect it wouldn't.
Re: Transcendent Sports Figures
Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 12:50 am
by Mikey
They lowered the pitching mound after that season. Didn’t Denny McClain win 31 that year?
Re: Transcendent Sports Figures
Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 1:52 am
by EAP
smackaholic wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 12:30 am
Rack SC for his comments about Gibson.
His 68 season culminating in his world series performance are just incomprehensible to today's fans. He was the baddest motherfukker to ever stand on the mound.
He was part excellent pitcher, part ruthless terrorist!!!! Anyone in the box looking out at Gibson wind up had in his mind the thought, "this mvscal's gonna try to kill me!!!!"
It was mindfukking at the highest level.
Wonder how his terrorism would play today?
I suspect it wouldn't.
I'm gonna respectfully disagree.
Not entirely mind you.
Gibson was great.
But come on?
Player after player, year after year, didn't want to face the Ryan express.
This fuckin freak of nature was a flame thrower!
103 mph?
Are you fucking kidding me?
7 no hitters?
See, Gibson had the luxury of playing for good Cardinals teams.
Ryan pitched for losing teams.
Big difference.
So again, Gibson I'd put as the post season juggernaut.
But Nolan Ryan as the one you didn't want to face.
Motherfucker had 5,700 plus strikeouts?
Are you kidding me?
Randy Johnson was a freak and he's still behind Ryan.
One question I have though.
We always hear that athletes are bigger and stronger today due to strength training and better science with overall conditioning and so on...
But why is it that pitchers can't make it to 9 innings?
Their arms give out by the 5th or 6th inning.
Nolan Ryan was pitching complete games. Flame throwing.
Guys today, with all their muscle and conditioning, are physically spent after half a game.
Why is that?
Re: Transcendent Sports Figures
Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 2:04 am
by EAP
So apparently, Aroldis Chapman was clocked at 105mph.
Fucking insane.
But, I was told that in 1974, Ryan was clocked at 108mph.
Holy shit!
I realize that Ryan was erratic at times. However, people need to remember that he played on some shitty teams. In comparison, Roger Clemens played on great teams.
It's easier to win 300 games when you're on a great team with run support.
What's amazing to me is that Ryan is a 300 game winner playing on mostly shitty teams.
Ok.
But you do realize Ryan was 46 at that time, don't you?
Between you and me? Little pussy Robin would get struck out on 3 straight 100moh heaters from a 26 year old Ryan.
Can we at least agree on that?
And that by summer, you'll be able to sit down in your favorite steakhouse and enjoy a 32 oz bone in Ribeye with a stuffed Idaho potato dripping with sour cream and chives.
A caesar salad topped with fresh anchovies
A nice bottle of cakebread cellars Napa cabernet.
And President Trump is who you can thank for that.
Nolan's abuse of Ventura is one of the great sports moments of the 20th century.
Did anyone ever charge the mound on Ryan after that?
Toughest arm in history.
Re: Transcendent Sports Figures
Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 2:40 am
by Softball Bat
You don't tug on Superman's cape.
Re: Transcendent Sports Figures
Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 3:12 am
by Diego in Seattle
MLB - Sidd Finch
Re: Transcendent Sports Figures
Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 3:32 am
by L45B
Tennis - Andre Agassi
First man since Emerson in ‘64 to win the career grand slam. And did it in ‘99 past the prime of his career at the place he arguably should have won his first in the early 90s and failed— at Roland Garros. Won his first in ‘91 where he probably had no business winning— on the grass courts of Wimbledon. Borg, McEnroe, Connors, Lendl, Becker, Edberg, Sampras, Courier—guys before or during his time that couldn’t win all four of the slams. Changed the image and branding of tennis. Arguably brought Nike to the tennis scene. Not necessarily the dominant player of his time but maybe one of the best service returners of all time. Paved the way for future baseliners of today’s age.
Re: Transcendent Sports Figures
Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 3:35 am
by BSmack
NBA - LeBron James: LeBron is not just a basketball and media icon, he also completely changed the way star players move around in the NBA. For better or worse, the days of guys like MJ and Kobe building teams around them is over. Now top-level players move around all over the league.
NFL - Bill Belichick: Belichick broke the salary cap system that was supposed to ensure parity in the NFL. Six Super bowls may just be the most unbreakable record yet.
MLB - The Bash Brothers: McGuire and Canseco made it clear to everybody that steroids work. Two of the greatest records in baseball are now tainted because of what McGuire and Canseco started, and numerous players Hall of Fame candidacies are in limbo.
NHL - Neutral zone trap- Single handedly took scoring out of hockey. The 60 goal scorer is less common than full solar eclipses.
Other Sports - Tiger Woods: every golfer who puts a multimillion-dollar check into their bank account should say a little thank you to Tiger Woods. It's hard to even fathom how miniscule in comparison the PGA Tour was before Tiger started winning majors in bushel loads.
Re: Transcendent Sports Figures
Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 4:14 am
by Softball Bat
Good stuff, B.
Interesting Agassi takes, L45.
He definitely brought a different vibe to the sport.
Andre disappointed in his early years, not enough steak to match all the sizzle.
But he proved to have great heart and staying power -- winning big in the 2nd half of his career.
A. Agassi left his mark in history.
Re: Transcendent Sports Figures
Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 4:27 am
by EAP
L45B wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 3:32 am
Tennis - Andre Agassi
First man since Emerson in ‘64 to win the career grand slam. And did it in ‘99 past the prime of his career at the place he arguably should have won his first in the early 90s and failed— at Roland Garros. Won his first in ‘91 where he probably had no business winning— on the grass courts of Wimbledon. Borg, McEnroe, Connors, Lendl, Becker, Edberg, Sampras, Courier—guys before or during his time that couldn’t win all four of the slams. Changed the image and branding of tennis. Arguably brought Nike to the tennis scene. Not necessarily the dominant player of his time but maybe one of the best service returners of all time. Paved the way for future baseliners of today’s age.
Sorry, but you're falling victim to fake news in sports.
There's no gravitas to the term, "career grand slam" because it's fake.
In other words, it doesn't exist.
It was a made up term by some in the sports media who knew how very RARE a real grand slam was to achieve.
So rare, that serena Williams couldn't achieve it despite playing against very weak competition.
Agassi was a great player, BUT, doesn't belong here.
If anything, Roger Federer is way more worthy.
Or the great steffi graf. Who faced the toughest competition in the history of the women's game, AND actually achieved a very rare authentic grand slam.
A grand slam is only ONE distinct thing.
Winning all four majors in a single calender tennis season or year if you will.
To say "career slam" is an oxy moron. Because it's not a thing.
For instance. Bjorn Borg never won the US open or the Australian open. But, he is more dominant than Agassi, and I'd argue, more transformative as well.
Serena's great, but I'd argue that the level of competition she faced was pathetic compared with what graf faced.
Despite playing much tougher competition, Graf still manged to have a higher career winning percentage as well. That's pretty sick.
As far as Agassi is concerned, he's great, no doubt in my mind
But that "career slam" nonsense is bogus.
It really cheapens the rare and magnificent achievement that a real grand slam really is.