Jonathan Football's debut

MgoBlue-LightSpecial · Sun Dec 14, 2014 8:38 pm

This about sums it up.

FLW Buckeye · Post by **FLW Buckeye** » Sun Dec 14, 2014 10:26 pm

Bwa...

Nice pic.

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Mon Dec 15, 2014 3:50 am

I think he's going to be a good player, but a horseshit first game for him.
Humble pie.

Screw_Michigan · Post by **Screw_Michigan** » Mon Dec 15, 2014 4:25 am

Good shit here

https://vine.co/v/O69pd5ng2Qb/embed

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Mon Dec 15, 2014 4:29 am

Well, it was a 15 yd penalty, so I don't know how good it was.

MgoBlue-LightSpecial · Mon Dec 15, 2014 4:31 am

poptart wrote:I think he's going to be a good player

In the CFL, perhaps.

Screw_Michigan · Post by **Screw_Michigan** » Mon Dec 15, 2014 4:37 am

poptart wrote:Well, it was a 15 yd penalty, so I don't know how good it was.

I'm surprised you're in love with a twat like Manziel. What gives?

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Mon Dec 15, 2014 5:13 am

I love him? lol

I'm just evaluating him as I see it honestly.

He just turned 22, and would be a junior in college.
I think he has a lot of positive attributes.
There are certainly some question marks, primarily in my mind -- will he stay healthy?

It'll be interesting to watch as time goes by.

MgoBlue-LightSpecial · Mon Dec 15, 2014 5:21 am

poptart wrote:I think he has a lot of positive attributes.

Like what? When has a QB like him ever gone on to become a franchise guy?

He's all media hype, nothing more.

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Mon Dec 15, 2014 7:24 am

He's a good passer of the ball, especially medium range stuff.
He's a very smart kid.
It might take some time, but I think he will "get" it.

Provided he doesn't get broken, which is possible.

I don't see why he couldn't be a Russell Wilson, or better.

He's not a read-option guy, but is a scrambler, like Fran Tarkenton.
In my mind, that's the successful QB who I most compare him with.
Tark did alright, granted it was a long time ago.

I wouldn't dismiss him, if I was you.
But... everyone can have their opinion.
Many think the same as you.

MgoBlue-LightSpecial · Mon Dec 15, 2014 4:32 pm

So you have to go back 50 years to find any sort of comparison. Kinda proving my point, pop.

poptart wrote:He's a good passer of the ball, especially medium range stuff.

No, he's not. That's the problem. He doesn't have the NFL arm to offset all of his other deficiencies (and there are many) and his athleticism is ordinary by NFL standards. He's all ESPN hype.

Wilson is a mature professional who's studying film in lieu of hanging out at the club 'til 2 a.m. He also has a big league arm and didn't have to try to learn the principles of a pro-style offense on the fly, which rarely seems to end well for anybody. Wilson and Manziel couldn't be any more dissimilar, imo.

Felix · Post by **Felix** » Mon Dec 15, 2014 5:14 pm

I'm not the type that wants anyone to get hurt, but watching the Bungles pound him into the ground was somewhat satisfying in the sense that loudmouth athletes that think too much of themselves need a certain reality check, which he received in spades yesterday.....

but props to him on owning up that the problem was largely his doing.....obviously he needs help from the offensive line and receivers but he said the offensive issues were his problems, and not the fault of the team.....good thing he didn't throw the offensive line under the bus, otherwise we'd be reading about him on the obituary page instead of the sports page......

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Tue Dec 16, 2014 11:22 am

Mgo wrote:So you have to go back 50 years to find any sort of comparison. Kinda proving my point, pop.

Tarkenton retired 36 years ago.
If you feel an urge to embelish, perhaps you have a nagging doubt about what you're selling. :wink:

Tarkenton was supposedly too small and he supposedly didn't have enough arm.
He retired as the league's all-time passing yardage king.
Oops.

Four NFC Championships.
36 years later, he's still 6th in career TD passes, 10th in passes completed, and 8th in passing yards.

Weak arm, too small...
He had mad scrambling ability and a great skill at delivering the ball to the open man.

I know.
Won't happen like that again.

Screw_Michigan · Post by **Screw_Michigan** » Tue Dec 16, 2014 1:18 pm

I'm not as bearish on Manziel as Mgo. I think he can be a decent QB, as long as he makes a halfway decent effort in the filmroom and on the practice field, unlike Griffin, who was busy doing Subway and Adidas ads and focusing on his branding instead of fundamentals. Manziel might have to get out of Cleveland to find success, but that's the way it works.

I do love watching Manziel get the money hand signs from defenders. That never sucks.

mvscal · Post by **mvscal** » Tue Dec 16, 2014 10:25 pm

poptart wrote: Four NFC Championships.
36 years later, he's still 6th in career TD passes, 10th in passes completed, and 8th in passing yards.

And still 4th in QB rushing yards. Tarkenton was also smart as a whip and a very driven competitor. I don't really see that from Johnny Fuckhead.

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Thu Dec 18, 2014 1:21 pm

How much resolve and drive Manziel has remains to be seen.

Smart, he is.
IQ- wise.
He scored high on the Wonderlic.

Maturity and natural intelligence are not the same thing.

Kaepernick is also no dummy.
Scored high (and higher than JF) on his Wonderlic.
But dude rolls in nogged up at post-games with oversized orange headphones on. Wtf?

Btw... should we really listen to you?

Yes, I think he'll (Tim Tebow) be a successful starting QB in the NFL.

- mvscal (September 3, 2011)

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=36184&hilit=Tebow&start=40

Tebow clearly has the "it" factor. That's why the Donks were so hot-to-trot for him. You can't coach that. Mechanics and accuracy can be coached if the play is willing to listen and learn.

- mvscal (October 10, 2011)

What is clear is that Tim Tebow has arrived. It may take a few years for his skills as a QB to catch up with his intangibles and his athleticism, but he'll muddle along somehow merely winning games instead of trashing the league like Godzilla in Tokyo.

- mvscal (December 4, 2011)

(speaking to trev)
Shut the fuck up, you stupid cunt.

- mvscal (December 4, 2011

It's a long thread and it's an entertaining read. :)

MgoBlue-LightSpecial · Sat Dec 20, 2014 5:36 pm

poptart wrote:Tarkenton retired 36 years ago.
If you feel an urge to embelish, perhaps you have a nagging doubt about what you're selling. :wink:

Almost four decades ago is still a long time to go back to make your case. I don't like your odds.

Tarkenton was supposedly too small and he supposedly didn't have enough arm.
He retired as the league's all-time passing yardage king.
Oops.

Four NFC Championships.
36 years later, he's still 6th in career TD passes, 10th in passes completed, and 8th in passing yards.

Weak arm, too small...
He had mad scrambling ability and a great skill at delivering the ball to the open man.

I know.
Won't happen like that again.

Tarkenton was a great player, but his skill set was unique for a QB in his time. NFL defenses weren't geared to stop a guy like that. Today you've got 6'4" defensive ends who can run 4.5 40s, and they've all faced "dual threat" QBs before. It's a much different league from when Tarkenton played. Hell, I'm sure Manziel would have been unstoppable in the 1960s.

The bottom line is, if you go down the list and check off all the things you want out of a franchise QB, how many things can you really check off for Manziel?

Size? No
Strength? No
Arm? Average at best
Maturity? No
Work Ethic? No
Experience running a pro style offense? No
Mobility? Yes

The problem is, what he IS good at, isn't so dynamic that it is going to wipe out all the things he is lacking in. And even then, you have to bank on him staying healthy, which at his size, is a risky bet.

If you want to hang on to this "exception to the rule" argument, fine, but that's really all you've got.

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Sun Dec 21, 2014 2:46 am

Seeing him as just a scrambler, I think people tend to underrate his throwing ability.
Look at his passing performance FROM THE POCKET last year.
It's interesting.

Manziel completed 73 percent of his passes from inside of the pocket this season, best among quarterbacks from BCS automatic-qualifier conferences (AQ conferences) and up four percentage points from last season.
He completed at least 65 percent of his passes from inside of the pocket in every game but one this season.

Manziel completed 48 percent of his passes thrown 25 yards or longer this season, up nine percentage points from last season and in the top 10 among AQ quarterbacks.
Manziel had at least one such completion in every game he started this season.

http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/post/ ... fl-profile

Manziel attempted the highest percentage of passes covering 20 yards or longer among the consensus top four quarterback prospects, a whopping 18.69 percent of his throws, according to Greg Peshek of Rotoworld.
Manziel completed 55.84 percent of those shot plays, also the top mark and better than Bridgewater, Bortles and Carr.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap200000 ... statistics

MgoBlue-LightSpecial · Sun Dec 21, 2014 5:38 pm

pop, every Heisman winner puts up impressive numbers in college. So that must mean they're all huge successes in the NFL, right?

Nothing that he did in college matters anymore, so you can throw it all out. The system that he played in, and the mismatches that he benefited from which allowed for high completion percentages, will not carry over into the NFL. Wide open receivers running wild, and throwing it up for grabs to Ryan Evans...those days are over. He didn't play in a structured offense. Hell, he had trouble in an interview naming a single play from their playbook! Was it effective? Sure, but it didn't prepare him for the next level. He is basically learning a whole new position on the fly. When has that ever worked out well for anybody in the end?

This is like the Tebow thread all over again. It's not always easy to identify the next great franchise QB, but it's easy to point out the clunkers.

War Wagon · Post by **War Wagon** » Sun Dec 21, 2014 6:30 pm

I believe it takes at least one full season in the NFL before you judge any QB. Look at Drew Brees career. If you had dismissed him as a "clunker" after one year, you were making a big mistake.

MgoBlue-LightSpecial · Sun Dec 21, 2014 6:52 pm

Yeah, but what's the fun in that?

As an avid Big Ten follower, I saw Drew Brees play plenty when he was at Purdue, and saw him in person once as well. He was one of the best pure passers in college football history. He also isn't a punk bitch. Johnny Manziel is no Drew Brees.

MgoBlue-LightSpecial · Sun Dec 21, 2014 7:24 pm

Manziel got knocked out of the game by Luke Kuechly on a QB scramble. Who could have possibly seen that coming?

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Sun Dec 21, 2014 9:54 pm

If he's going to make it in the NFL, that shot will be something he'll learn a lot from.
You can't run around on whim, you can't expose yourself to that abuse, and you've got to make it happen from the pocket.

We'll see...

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Mon Dec 22, 2014 2:30 pm

Btw, I didn't think much of the play call on the play where Johnny Footupass got banged out of the game.

It was a called run around left end.

6'0 and barely over 200 lbs.
Let's run him around left end.

He's got to be working from the pocket -- with running as a 2nd option when a receiver(s) not there, or when pass protection breaks down.
Or he needs to be in a moving pocket.
Maybe a bootleg here-and-there.

In summary, he's simply got to diminish the thought that he's a runner.
They shouldn't be encouraging him to run, because his brain is already wired to do just that.

If he can't make it as a passer, he's got no future in the league.

mvscal · Post by **mvscal** » Mon Dec 22, 2014 4:47 pm

Because Wilson can actually play QB.

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Tue Dec 23, 2014 12:57 pm

I think that's right.

Wilson is a legit QB passing threat.
That opens up more running space for him.

In JF's first start, Cincy had him game-planned perfectly.
They spied him and also kept their outside rush guys from going far upfield, which would have allowed him escape paths.
He had nowhere to run, and within the pocket, he didn't do dick throwing.

If you keep Wilson in the pocket, he can hurt you there.

I don't think Cleveland should be encouraging JF to run by calling run plays for him.
He's clearly wired to do enough running on his own.

He's done for this year, but going into next season, they better get him calmed down and settled in to the idea that he's got to be a passer of the football.

His baptism in 2014 was a total disaster.

mvscal · Post by **mvscal** » Tue Dec 23, 2014 2:51 pm

poptart wrote:I think that's right.

Wilson is a legit QB passing threat.
That opens up more running space for him.

Yep. There is a huge difference between a running quarterback and quarterback who can run. Actually, I'd say Wilson is a much better comparison to Tarkenton than Manziel.

poptart wrote: I don't think Cleveland should be encouraging JF to run by calling run plays for him.

Yeah, that probably wouldn't be a good idea.

mvscal · Post by **mvscal** » Tue Dec 23, 2014 3:17 pm

War Wagon wrote:I believe it takes at least one full season in the NFL before you judge any QB.

Sure. I think it's also fair to say that most of the successful NFL QBs enter the league equipped with a dedicated work ethic.

Jay in Phoenix · Post by **Jay in Phoenix** » Tue Dec 23, 2014 7:59 pm

mvscal wrote:
War Wagon wrote:I believe it takes at least one full season in the NFL before you judge any QB.
Sure. I think it's also fair to say that most of the successful NFL QBs enter the league equipped with a dedicated work ethic.

100% right. JM has spent most of his time hitting the celebrity scenes. Look how well that worked for Ryan Leaf.

BSmack · Post by **BSmack** » Wed Dec 24, 2014 7:16 pm

Papa Willie wrote:Mike Vick could run like a motherfucker, too. You see how well that's ended up for him.

You just can't run on every dropback in the NFL. Sure - you can - but you're gonna die if you do...

Vick bagged a 100 million dollar contract extension with his style of play. He would have earned at least 3/4 of it were it not for his dog killing habit. Not your best example.

MgoBlue-LightSpecial · Tue Dec 30, 2014 1:15 am

Reprimanded again for being late...cuz he had to get his party on.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2311 ... o-practice

LOL at the naive dolts who think this guy is going to change his ways. People don't fundamentally change who they are, their work ethic, etc. It takes some kind of major life event for that to occur, if it even occurs at all. And the problem is, he does not possess the talent or ability necessary to make up for that.

Would not be surprised in the least if Cleveland drafts another QB already.

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Tue Dec 30, 2014 1:48 am

I wouldn't be surprised if Cleveland felt like they wanted to cut their losses and move on without him.
Couldn't really blame them.

It's one thing if he's not performing well, but when he brings a circus on top of it...

At this point, is any other team going to see him as a future for them?
Bring him in, let him work in the program, and groom him to be THE GUY down the road?

Why would they?

Manziel needs a personal wake-up call.
If he doesn't get his act together, his opportunities will be dwindling.

MgoBlue-LightSpecial · Tue Dec 30, 2014 1:56 am

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Tue Feb 03, 2015 2:22 am

Johnny Rehab

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/12267 ... ve-himself

Joe in PB · Post by **Joe in PB** » Tue Feb 03, 2015 2:58 am

Funny thread.

I think Russel Wilson is the Fran Tarkenton clone.

Johnny Football seems more David Klingler, although that is probably an insult to Klingler.

BSmack · Post by **BSmack** » Thu Feb 05, 2015 7:45 pm

And Cleveland is going to lose some draft picks because their GM is a meddling cheat. And Josh Gordon is suspended for a full season and their owner is a felon. Sounds about right for the mistake by the lake. And Browns fans thought Modell was bad.

MgoBlue-LightSpecial · Sun Feb 08, 2015 5:59 pm

If pop couldn't see this bust from a mile away, how am I supposed to trust his judgment on the All Mighty? :)

Joe in PB · Post by **Joe in PB** » Sun Feb 08, 2015 8:38 pm

MgoBlue-LightSpecial wrote:If pop couldn't see this bust from a mile away, how am I supposed to trust his judgment on the All Mighty? :)

I blame Texas A&M and the state of Texas propaganda. pops got reeled in head first. The good news for him, Derek Carr is a very good prospect.

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Tue Feb 10, 2015 2:41 pm

Mgo wrote:If pop couldn't see this bust from a mile away, how am I supposed to trust his judgment on the All Mighty?

He's 22 yrs old.
Write him off if that's how you see it.
I respect your take.

Myself, I'll give it more time.

People don't fundamentally change who they are, their work ethic, etc. It takes some kind of major life event for that to occur, if it even occurs at all.

- Mgo

Admitting you have a substance problem?

Seems rehab is something he needed.
It will be interesting to see how things play out for Manziel next season.
More of what we saw in 2014 and *THE END* really could be in sight for him.

BSmack · Post by **BSmack** » Tue Feb 10, 2015 7:18 pm

They showed a picture of Manziel sans shirt on a recent news report. My impression was that he's got the beginnings of a boiler and that he was as familiar with a weight room as he was with the interior of the A&M school library. He's a turd.