Merchants can start adding Credit Card surcharges today

[smackaholic]

been paying the nickel surcharge on gas forever.

not sure why government has stuck there nose in financial transactions to this point, but, then again they stick their fukkin nose in everything else.

[Screw_Michigan]

Best way to handle it? Don't use credit cards. :wink:

Thanks for the tip, Captain Obvious.

[Derron]

Best way to handle it? Don't use credit cards. :wink:

Too simple a concept for the sheep to follow here. The media advertising has them thinking they are getting such great deals on air miles, 3% cash back and all that shit. Add in annual fees, transaction fees and it is a wash. Debit cards and cash. Pretty simple way to do things. Amazing I ran a 1M construction business, and our personal finances with out credit cards for the last 15 years. Shocking.

[Mikey]

The credit card cost is already factored into the prices any business charges. The thing is, they can't charge more from a credit card user than they can from somebody who pays cash. So, in reality, the cash customers are subsidizing the credit card customers. Why should cash customers pay as much as credit card users when there's no bank charge for the cash purchase?

This way you have a choice - use your card and pay the fee or use cash and don't. Since they will now be collecting the entire fee from the card users they should, at least in the long run, be able to lower their "before the fee" prices.

Funny, when I go to an ARCO station there's always a 35 or 40 cent charge to use my debit card. Most ARCO card readers take debit cards but not credit cards, but some take credit cards. My BofA card can be used either way so when I go to one that will take either it always wants to add the surcharge if I press "debit", but there's no surcharge for "credit" with the same card.

[R-Jack]

The credit card cost is already factored into the prices any business charges.

And so is cash.

What? You thought all those bills and coins just appear at the bank by magic?

So, in reality, the cash customers are subsidizing the credit card customers. Why should cash customers pay as much as credit card users when there's no bank charge for the cash purchase?

100% wrong. There is paying for the transport to the bank, depending on how much cash is carried in the store. If you don't carry enough to need armored transport, there is the cost to have someone deliver the cash to the bank, or pay someone for coverage while the owner transports, which can result in a productivity dip. Not to mention the loss accrued by humans handling cash, either by bad math or theft. All of those operating costs are factored into the prices any business charges, just like credit card costs.

Now think about how much business the merchant gains by not forcing their customers to only pay by cash and let me know if you want to make another run at that take of yours.

[Atomic Punk]

Amazing I ran a 1M construction business, and our personal finances with out credit cards for the last 15 years. Shocking.

Yes, both amazing and shocking to say the least.

[Smackie Chan]

The media advertising has them thinking they are getting such great deals on air miles, 3% cash back and all that shit. Add in annual fees, transaction fees and it is a wash.

Unless one isn't charged annual fees or transaction fees, & pays off the balance each month. Pay no interest, no fees, write hardly any checks (<10/yr), no need to carry large sums of cash, accrue points to use toward airline tix or...whatever. Makes a helluva lot more sense to me to responsibly use credit than pay by other means.

[BSmack]

Amazing I ran a 1M construction business, and our personal finances with out credit cards for the last 15 years. Shocking.

Yes, both amazing and shocking to say the least.

Why so shocked? He was probably building bunkers for other preppers on a cash only basis.

[smackaholic]

100% wrong. There is paying for the transport to the bank, depending on how much cash is carried in the store. If you don't carry enough to need armored transport, there is the cost to have someone deliver the cash to the bank, or pay someone for coverage while the owner transports, which can result in a productivity dip. Not to mention the loss accrued by humans handling cash, either by bad math or theft. All of those operating costs are factored into the prices any business charges, just like credit card costs.

Now think about how much business the merchant gains by not forcing their customers to only pay by cash and let me know if you want to make another run at that take of yours.

Yes, there is a cost associated with handling cash, but, unless you can do away with cash transactions completely, that cost is more or less fixed. Yeah, higher amouns of cash are somewhat more expensive as the likelyhood of theft grows and large amounts of cash require more secure means of transport, but, I don't think it amounts to the 3-5 percent the banks bend retailers over for.

I think this is a good law as it will put market forces back to work and they always work better than some crooked politician.

The result of this is people will take advantage of the discount and use cash. The credit card companies will attempt to get some of that business back by lowering fees.

[ucantdoitdoggieSTyle2]

The result of this is people will take advantage of the discount and use cash.

Discount?

Not paying more ≠ paying less.

[R-Jack]

Yes, there is a cost associated with handling cash, but, unless you can do away with cash transactions completely, that cost is more or less fixed. Yeah, higher amouns of cash are somewhat more expensive as the likelyhood of theft grows and large amounts of cash require more secure means of transport, but, I don't think it amounts to the 3-5 percent the banks bend retailers over for.

Bending retailers over for? It's a business that provides retailers with a payment option that not only allows their customers to make an immediate purchasing decision, but also increases the customers spending potential exponentially. Are the supposed to just give that service away, Mr. Free Market?

The result of this is people will take advantage of the discount and use cash. The credit card companies will attempt to get some of that business back by lowering fees.

The result will more likely be merchants suck it up and continue to pay the the fees as they lose business when their customers refuse to be bent over.

[smackaholic]

The result of this is people will take advantage of the discount and use cash.

Discount?

Not paying more ≠ paying less.

either you are playing semantics or you are really bad at math.

[smackaholic]

Yes, there is a cost associated with handling cash, but, unless you can do away with cash transactions completely, that cost is more or less fixed. Yeah, higher amouns of cash are somewhat more expensive as the likelyhood of theft grows and large amounts of cash require more secure means of transport, but, I don't think it amounts to the 3-5 percent the banks bend retailers over for.

Bending retailers over for? It's a business that provides retailers with a payment option that not only allows their customers to make an immediate purchasing decision, but also increases the customers spending potential exponentially. Are the supposed to just give that service away, Mr. Free Market?

The result of this is people will take advantage of the discount and use cash. The credit card companies will attempt to get some of that business back by lowering fees.

The result will more likely be merchants suck it up and continue to pay the the fees as they lose business when their customers refuse to be bent over.

Did you and ucunt go to the same math class? "but also increases the customers spending potential exponentially"



It does increase customers ability to spend money they don't have, but, it lowers their purchasing power in the long run.

My main point here is that by forcing price equity regardless of purchasing option, you give the banks license to stick it in our ass and break it off.

Now with market forces at work, consumers will take the discount, and yes, it is a fukking "discount" and pay cash. The banks will respond by making it less expensive to use their services. Not saying that service should be free, as nothing is free, but, it could be lower.

[R-Jack]

Not saying that service should be free, as nothing is free, but, it could be lower.

Only if the market says is could be.

Why is your own argument so difficult for you to understand?

[Truman]

been paying the nickel surcharge on gas forever.

No you haven't. You've been paying the posted "credit" price at the pumps. A cash transaction "rewards" you with a $0.05 "cash discount". Semantics, but perfectly legal.

not sure why government has stuck there nose in financial transactions to this point, but, then again they stick their fukkin nose in everything else.

Somewhere, the Fed got the idea that they are smarter than Banks (see the Dubin Amendment). Breathtakingly arrogant, not to mention stupid. One entity makes policy; the other makes profits. Guess which one always gets over?

[Truman]

Best way to handle it? Don't use credit cards. :wink:

I'll disagree - IF you have the discipline to pay your balance off in full evry month

If you can do that they're a great way to get everything from Air travel, Hotels, Merchandise or cash back for using them

So who do think actually pays for all your "Air travel, Hotels, Merchandise or cash back for using them"?

[Truman]

The credit card cost is already factored into the prices any business charges. The thing is, they can't charge more from a credit card user than they can from somebody who pays cash. So, in reality, the cash customers are subsidizing the credit card customers. Why should cash customers pay as much as credit card users when there's no bank charge for the cash purchase?

If you mean factored in as a "cost of doing business", then you would be correct.

As a business, you want to encourage cash or check because it doesn't cost you any money. However, you pretty much have to accept payment cards too, because you do not want it to cost you a customer.

What R-Jack said. Many folks do not look at cards as being "real" money - and still don't when the payment come due. Think monthly minimum.

You can roll into a bike shop for a new pair of leathers and literally roll out on a new bike. Yeah, it bites for the retailer to eat 2-3% in card processing - but would the retailer have made that sale had the biker had only $175 in checking?

[Truman]

The result of this is people will take advantage of the discount and use cash. The credit card companies will attempt to get some of that business back by lowering fees.

The very next time that happens will be the first, 'holic.

[Derron]

Amazing I ran a 1M construction business, and our personal finances with out credit cards for the last 15 years. Shocking.

Yes, both amazing and shocking to say the least.

Why so shocked? He was probably building bunkers for other preppers on a cash only basis.

Cash only ? Last thing I would barter for. Gold, silver, ammunition on a small scale.

Since trying to talk business with you or Atomic Cunt is about like talking to a rock, you just have to understand that some people actually did or do something that contributed to the economy other than buying micro brews and cheap rag weed on the corner.

[Derron]

The result of this is people will take advantage of the discount and use cash. The credit card companies will attempt to get some of that business back by lowering fees.

The very next time that happens will be the first, 'holic.

I process a cash till several times a week, and there are at least 15 debit or credit card charges each week of $ 1.00 down to .50 cents.

[Truman]

I process a cash till several times a week, and there are at least 15 debit or credit card charges each week of $ 1.00 down to .50 cents.

And you're getting killed for it. Why do you think Starbucks charges the prices they do for a cup of burnt coffee? It's also the reason why bars like to run tabs.

You are well within your rights to post a sign that reads "No Card Transactions Under $10" (this didn't always used to be the case, btw). The question you will need to ask yourself before you do this, however, is whether it is worth the potential of running off future business? Tough call. Only YOU know your business...

[Truman]

…And in case you were wondering, the major card brands aren’t exactly thrilled with the ruling, most notably Visa, the top purchasing card-brand in the world.

Visa has ALWAYS taken a dim view of merchant surcharge fees. Don’t believe me? When’s the last time you used a Visa card at the license bureau?

So in light of the court’s ruling, the Visa folks have taken it upon themselves to create enough burning hoops to discourage merchants from charging card-use surcharges:

http://usa.visa.com/merchants/operation ... urcharging

This is really much ado about nothing. Approximately 70% of retail payment-card transactions are facilitated with debit or pre-paid cards – which are exempt from the ruling. Credit cards, on the other hand, are rolled out for high-ticket purchases or used in B-2-B transactions. If you’re buying high ticket or paying a business expense, then you really don’t have much cause to bitch if Mr. Merchant smacks you with 3% surcharge - you can afford it just as easily as he can.

[smackaholic]

The result of this is people will take advantage of the discount and use cash. The credit card companies will attempt to get some of that business back by lowering fees.

The very next time that happens will be the first, 'holic.

It hasn't happened yet because the banks haven't needed to do it due to medelsome policies such as the one that has apparently just been lifted.

It makes sense that when the CC companies start losing bidness because people start dealing in cash, they will do something to battle this. As R-jack said, merchants sure as fukk like having the CC option as it's easier to process the money, but, they don't like it enough to pass up a few percent profit by dealing in cash.

it all really comes down to allowing free choices. Merchants should be allowed to give whatever fukking discount they chose for whatever reason they chose just as the banks should be free to charge whatever fees they can get away with. Beyond monopoly laws, the gubmint needs to pretty much butt the fukk out.

[ucantdoitdoggieSTyle2]

either you are playing semantics or you are really bad at math.

It's not semantics. The price is the price, you fucking tard. If you choose to plop down your credit card, than you are choosing to incur an additional fee on top of the price.

A discount means you're paying less than the actual price. Which is not the case here. You're just not paying anything extra if you use cash.

If you need me to draw you a picture, I can.

[Derron]

either you are playing semantics or you are really bad at math.

It's not semantics. The price is the price, you fucking tard. If you choose to plop down your credit card, than you are choosing to incur an additional fee on top of the price.

A discount means you're paying less than the actual price. Which is not the case here. You're just not paying anything extra if you use cash.

If you need me to draw you a picture, I can.

Most business that use credit /debit card are charged a 3% to 4% fee to process that card at the point of sale. On low margin products like gasoline, where your profit margins are measured in cents, a 3% to 4% hit is huge. Hence, they give a cash discount.

On other types of purchases, retailers are pretty good a determining how many people use a card and how many pay cash. When your margins are larger that a few cents, the price of the processing is added into the retail margin. Customers paying cash are then adding and immediate 3% to 4% additional margin on to the sale, a significant amount. Processing the cash does have a cost, but not that much.

[Truman]

It hasn't happened yet because the banks haven't needed to do it due to medelsome policies such as the one that has apparently just been lifted.

You lost me. What meddlesome policy would that be? Click the Visa link above and see how easy it will be for retailers to implement the surcharge.

It makes sense that when the CC companies start losing bidness because people start dealing in cash, they will do something to battle this. As R-jack said, merchants sure as fukk like having the CC option as it's easier to process the money, but, they don't like it enough to pass up a few percent profit by dealing in cash.

As stated before, the next time this happens will be the first. Card companies will never lose business. Why? Opened a bank account lately? EVERYBODY receives a free debit card in lieu of checks. Folks like Scott and Smackie are incented to carry their Signature/Rewards/Business/Corporate cards. And young people don’t carry cash. Ever seen a kid try to write a check? Hilarious. You can’t put the genie back in the bottle.

Do you know who developed the Visa card? Remember Bankamericard? If you said, “Bank of America,” you would be correct. Until October of last year, one out of every four payment cards in America was BOA’s Visa debit. It carried an interchange value of 0.95% + $0.20. This meant that a $50 purchase using this card netted BOA $0.68. The Dubin Amendment (government intervention) changed all that, when it regulated BOA (and other card-issuing banks with assets over $10B) to a debit interchange value of 0.05% + $0.22. This new law capped BOA and other banks profit to $0.24 on that same $50 debit transaction. That’s hundreds of millions in lost revenues.

So what did Visa (and BOA) do? Well, they floated the idea of hitting consumers with a $5 monthly usage fee, only to see that idea blow up in their face. So they launched a new fee this past April targeted at every single merchant processing account in the country called the FANF (Fixed Acquirer Network Fee). Cost to the merchants for this fee: $2 - $40K per month. Nobody gets over on banks.

it all really comes down to allowing free choices. Merchants should be allowed to give whatever fukking discount they chose for whatever reason they chose just as the banks should be free to charge whatever fees they can get away with. Beyond monopoly laws, the gubmint needs to pretty much butt the fukk out.

Um, merchants already CAN give a customer whatever discount they choose. Hell, they can even give their product or service away free. Can’t imagine that they would stay in business long, though...

As for cards, banks would LOVE to charge more for their cards – but the Market has spoken. That’s why card interchange rates generally run from 1-3%, with 2% being the average. That’s why AMEX charges retailers 2.85% + $0.15 to accept their card. And for all the reasons listed above, and a couple of dozen others I haven’t bothered to list, I agree with your take that government should butt-the-fuck out. Banks always get over.

[Truman]

Most business that use credit /debit card are charged a 3% to 4% fee to process that card at the point of sale. On small ticket products like soft drinks, where your profit margins are measured in cents, a 25% to 30% hit is huge.

Fixed

[Atomic Punk]

Amazing I ran a 1M construction business, and our personal finances with out credit cards for the last 15 years. Shocking.

Yes, both amazing and shocking to say the least.

Why so shocked? He was probably building bunkers for other preppers on a cash only basis.

Okay Bri, so Doron is going to barter in gold, silver, and ammunition to survive since when the world ends and we get overrun by something... you'll need those to survive. After all, building bunkers is what he considers contributing to the economy.

~que up "Dueling Banjos"~

[smackaholic]

either you are playing semantics or you are really bad at math.

It's not semantics. The price is the price, you fucking tard. If you choose to plop down your credit card, than you are choosing to incur an additional fee on top of the price.

A discount means you're paying less than the actual price. Which is not the case here. You're just not paying anything extra if you use cash.

If you need me to draw you a picture, I can.

And the "actual price" if you decide to use a card is more. You can argue official marketing definition all you want. The fact remains that if you pay cash and get it cheaper than if you used plastic, you have gotten a discount.

[Atomic Punk]

Hey smacko... This is the one and only time I will agree with R-Jerkoff, ucunt, and Truman in the same thread. If you want this to continue then by all means...

I may need to edit my sig.

[Derron]

Okay Bri, so Doron is going to barter in gold, silver, and ammunition to survive since when the world ends and we get overrun by something... you'll need those to survive. After all, building bunkers is what he considers contributing to the economy.

~que up "Dueling Banjos"~

So BSmack..when did you and Atomic Panties Cunt become such boys ?

[Atomic Punk]

Okay Bri, so Doron is going to barter in gold, silver, and ammunition to survive since when the world ends and we get overrun by something... you'll need those to survive. After all, building bunkers is what he considers contributing to the economy.

~que up "Dueling Banjos"~

So BSmack..when did you and Atomic Panties Cunt become such boys ?

White flag so early?

[ucantdoitdoggieSTyle2]

And the "actual price" if you decide to use a card is more. You can argue official marketing definition all you want. The fact remains that if you pay cash and get it cheaper than if you used plastic, you have gotten a discount.

Wrong. By using the credit card, you are choosing to eat the extra charges being passed along to the retailer by the bank. If it were a discount, then you'd be eating into the retailer's bottom line = their net income. And you're not. They are making the same amount of money off of you if you're just eating their expense.

Feel free to mix in an economics or accounting class some century.

[R-Jack]

If sucaharddick is involved, you're better off discussing how to drive landscapers to suicide.