T1B

shaddup Bace before you start to annoy me. Wait, you almost always do that. Nevermind. Listen to a song that does not suck instead. The first time I click on one of your youtube links will be the first time.

For lovebuzz and her edification. You, as always, can go pack sand.

Sam wrote:I was between cutie's (on the left, faggots) legs while this was recorded.

Doing what?

War Wagon wrote:shaddup Bace before you start to annoy me. Wait, you almost always do that. Nevermind. Listen to a song that does not suck instead. The first time I click on one of your youtube links will be the first time.

For lovebuzz and her edification. You, as always, can go pack sand.

Sorry, but The Who without Moon just ain't The Who.

'Spray wrote:That being said, Simon Phillips is about 200X better than Moon & Jones combined.

Without a doubt.

War Wagon wrote:Listen to a song that does not suck instead.

Were you planning on posting one?


Nothing says "doesn't suck" like repeating the same riff for 10 minutes straight, while singing out of tune and hitting notes out of tempo.

War Wagon wrote: Listen to a song that does not suck instead.

I did not say "here's a song for guy who understands women so well that he raised a lesbian".

I posted the song for Buzzer.

When I post Honey Boo Boo clips, you know its for you.

you goddamn 'tards, Eminence Front has the best bass line ever recorded... and I only posted that song as a theme for buzzer, who openly admitted in chat that 1/2 the time she's fronting in here... like all you other miserable cunts do 24/7 but don't own it.

Go fuck yourselves.

aight then, for the Who purists.

I love Keith Moon, think he's the greatest drummer ever. I have fought Van over it, 'cause he insists Bonham is. It's a close call, but Moon just has more fun doing it, while Bonzo was all business.

bonham >>>>>>> keith moon


not that I don't love keith moon

it's a matter of opinion I reckon.

I rank the top 3 bands ever in this order, but there's not much separation.

1. Led Zeppelin
2. Pink Floyd
3. The Who

This is a great vid, enjoy.

you're not the same as used to be, 'spray. You've matured, that's a good thing.

as for Bonzo, this may be the best example of his over the top dominance... though I'm sure Van will disagree with that as well.

Papa Willie wrote:Well - in all honesty, I think all drummers and guitarists and every other type instrumentalist can do some things better than others. There were some things that Moon did that fit the Who better than anybody else, but Moon's style would have been a train wreck in most other bands - certainly LZ. Then again, I don't think Bonham's style would have fit the Who's. I think Simon Phillips could have a lot easier time of filling either of those guys' slots than one could the other.

Yeah, it's like saying Goober is capable of pushing Screwey's jizzmop.
I mean, he could, but it just wouldn't be...the same.

War Wagon wrote:is this a display of that "fronting" thing you were speaking of in chat?

I ain't buying it.

No, Wags. I do drink Caribou (though not like I used to in the 314) Not fronting and no worries. I'm buying. Life is too short to drink cheap swill.
I spring for quality beans. I don't front (probably why I can't troll) and do consider that a flaw to a certain extent.
I tend to own my shit and have always been rather honest and open about said shit, even while message boarding.
I may very well be a miserable cunt but an authentic one for sure. Fake, plastic shit/people are not my bag.

And so, because I know my authenticity, I'm ok with you dishing chat here. I'll expect the same privilege

Wags wrote:For lovebuzz and her edification. You, as always, can go pack sand.

My edification ?! You busting out the big words on me ?
Trying to enlighten me, is that it ? To uplift me ? Morally improve or guide me ? I think you underestimate me, friend.

I'm always down with The Who (Townshend specifically.) Eminence Front is a decent jam that just needs to be heard at a very high volume every once in awhile.
I'm not sure that my neighbors agree

Bacefelice - I lurve you for sentimental reasons.

'Spray, it's not worth the bother. You're dealing with a guy here who thinks the "best bass line ever recorded" was Entwistle's little wheedle in "Eminence Front."

Wags, no, I don't think Bonzo is the greatest drummer ever. Not even close. He's my favorite rock drummer, yes, and one of that genre's greatest ever (he certainly blows the doors off of Keith freaking Moon), but there are countless drummers beyond the hard rock spectrum who are/were much better than Bonham.

Van wrote:

'Spray wrote:That being said, Simon Phillips is about 200X better than Moon & Jones combined.

Without a doubt.

Why no love for Keith?

Look at what rock drummers were doing before him? You had Ringo and Charlie Watts, boring time keepers. Keith completely revolutionized rock drumming and Bonham ran with it from there.

If anyone other than Keith was The Who's drummer, they are a completely different band. And not in a good way.

What constitutes "great" drumming? Speed at which one can pound the skins? Number of drums in the kit ('sup, Ian Paice?)? Acrobatics?

At the most basic level, a drummer is merely the timekeeper of the rhythm section. Most blues & basic rock tracks don't need anything beyond a drummer who can keep the beat. Jazz is a bit different and requires the ability to quickly adapt to time changes within songs, but as long as one is able to keep the beat, one can be a serviceable drummer.

I'm no drummer or musician, but the differences I can discern between Moon & Bonham are that Moon tried to do more than be merely a timekeeper; he almost seemed to be trying to incorporate drums into the melody of songs while simutaneously keeping time. "My Generation," "Baba O'Riley," and "Won't Get Fooled Again" are examples of songs in which the drums aren't just there to keep time. Moon's style seemed similar to Mitch Mitchell's, at least to my ear.

Bonham's uniqueness came from his playing on the off beats, and being a thunderous presence at the back of the stage. He was more of a traditional timekeeper than Moon, and seldom tried to "compete" with the other band members to have his instrument heard, though he never had to worry too much about that. He seemed content in his supporting role to Page & Plant. Moon, on the other hand, always seemed to want to be noticed, to be paid attention, and to be at the front of the stage rather than the back.

Technically, I couldn't tell if one was better than the other. Not sure if Moon could do things Bonzo was unable to do, or vice versa. All I know is that both could keep the beat, and they had different styles. I like LZ more than I like The Who, but I prefer Moon's style of drumming over Bonzo's. And both would probably be schooled by any number of accomplished jazz drummers.

To some, drummers are like umpires - they're considered to be doing a good job if you don't notice them. When they do get noticed, it's often 'cuz they fucked up. A good example of this is found on Al Kooper - Mike Bloomfield ‎– Fillmore East: The Lost Concert Tapes 12/13/68. Seldom will you ever read liner notes for a recording that include criticism of any of the musicians playing on it, especially when the notes are written by one of the band members. Kooper wrote the album's liner notes, and was not shy about voicing his disdain for drummer Johnny Cresci, who he felt did not have enough experience as a blues drummer and therefore didn't understand that his expected role was JUST TO KEEP TIME - nothing more. During one of the album's show pieces - "It's My Own Fault" featuring a recently-discovered Johnny Winter trading solo riffs with Bloomfield - Cresci decided it might be a good idea to shift mid-song from a standard (and admittedly boring) blues beat to a waltz. He was probably the only one who thought it was a good idea. Kooper was infuriated, and lambasted him in the liner notes for it.

Van / 'holic - what Zep songs would you cite as being representative examples of Bonzo's superior drumming skills? And please don't say Moby Dick (at least the studio version). That's one of the lamest drum solo songs ever.

Does anyone else not really care about pissing matches over musician's skill levels, especially when it comes to arena rock that I hated during its prime. What is wrong with having mediocre skills, a lot of fun, and recording something and barely being able to afford to press 1000 copies on vinyl. That is what music is to me.

campinfool wrote:What is wrong with having mediocre skills, a lot of fun, and recording something and barely being able to afford to press 1000 copies on vinyl.

Nothing at all. I've had discussions similar to this with Van & others. Comparing, say, Rush to The Ramones, there's no question which band has superior musical skills. But I'd still rather listen to The Ramones. They're much more fun. In general, I'd rather listen to 3-chord punk than the skilled musicianship of progressive rock.

Of course, acts that are able to display musical chops while playing music that's fun to listen to is better than either/or.

smackaholic wrote:

Van wrote:

'Spray wrote:That being said, Simon Phillips is about 200X better than Moon & Jones combined.

Without a doubt.

Why no love for Keith?

Look at what rock drummers were doing before him? You had Ringo and Charlie Watts, boring time keepers. Keith completely revolutionized rock drumming and Bonham ran with it from there.

Sin,
Ginger Baker, Mitch Mitchell, et al.

Smackie -- your comparison of Moon and Bonzo is fairly accurate... if your definition of "fairly accurate" is "the exact opposite of reality."

Moon brought extreme energy, and a pretty mediocre skillset.

Bonham completely changed the way all rock drummers who followed viewed the role of the (dual) bass drum.

Those guys really shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath.

campinfoool, what Smackie said. It's not an either/or deal. One doesn't have to play at a primitive level or only be able to afford to press 1000 vinyl copies in order to be "fun" or to make great music. Proper musicianship is never a bad thing.

Smackie, as I've said a million times before (and 'Spray just reiterated with his youtube clip), the studio version of "Achilles' Last Stand" would be my pick for showcasing Bonzo at his untouchable finest. To that I would also add "Fool in the Rain," which is an example of one of those things you mentioned, i.e., something Bonham played that Keith Moon never in a million years could have pulled off.



The relaxed ease with which Bonzo nails that sinuous half-time shuffle would make Moon's head explode, never mind the steel drums section. That entire song is a master clinic.

Surprisingly enough, Jimmy Page has long pointed to the opening of this as an example of Bonzo's unmatched prowess among rock drummers, specifically what he does so smoothly and effortlessly with his foot at the :30 second mark...

Van wrote:

Sin,
Ginger Baker, Mitch Mitchell, et al.

Baker, Mitchell, Bonham and all fantastic drummers and dependent on your tastes, may be better than Moon. But, Moon was a couple years ahead of them. And a couple of years might as well be 100 years when you are talking about the mid 60s. If I have my 60s music timeline right, they were on the scene right on the heels of the Beatles and Stones. Cream and Hendrix were a few yearsw later and Zep a year or two after that.

Dinsdale wrote:Smackie -- your comparison of Moon and Bonzo is fairly accurate... if your definition of "fairly accurate" is "the exact opposite of reality."

Moon brought extreme energy, and a pretty mediocre skillset.

Bonham completely changed the way all rock drummers who followed viewed the role of the (dual) bass drum, synchopated rhythms, groove, and sheer power with sublime feel and taste.

Those guys really shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath.

Pretty much.

Dinsdale wrote:Smackie -- your comparison of Moon and Bonzo is fairly accurate... if your definition of "fairly accurate" is "the exact opposite of reality."

Moon brought extreme energy, and a pretty mediocre skillset.

Bonham completely changed the way all rock drummers who followed viewed the role of the (dual) bass drum.

Those guys really shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath.

That is almost Let's turd stupid.

Moon did the double bass before Bonham. In fact, Bonham often didn't use a DB because he was so fukking good he didn't need to.

I am not arguing that Moon is better than Bonham. Bonham is my fukking rock drummer hero. But to say his skill set is mediocre puts your level of drum knowledge on a par with let's turd's aviation/metallurgy/most everything else knowledge.

Of course we are not talking about Moon's last few years where he was a drug addled zombie.

smackaholic wrote:Baker, Mitchell, Bonham and all fantastic drummers and dependent on your tastes, may be better than Moon. But, Moon was a couple years ahead of them. And a couple of years might as well be 100 years when you are talking about the mid 60s. If I have my 60s music timeline right, they were on the scene right on the heels of the Beatles and Stones. Cream and Hendrix were a few yearsw later and Zep a year or two after that.

Ginger Baker was light years beyond Keith Moon at any point in their respective careers, and just because you weren't aware of the guy until Cream came along doesn't mean that he wasn't already Ginger Baker.

Keith Moon was just wild and energetic. He was a good showman who kicked over his drums and became famous for playing in an enormously popular band. He's no Ginger Baker, never mind a John Bonham.

Van wrote:

smackaholic wrote:Baker, Mitchell, Bonham and all fantastic drummers and dependent on your tastes, may be better than Moon. But, Moon was a couple years ahead of them. And a couple of years might as well be 100 years when you are talking about the mid 60s. If I have my 60s music timeline right, they were on the scene right on the heels of the Beatles and Stones. Cream and Hendrix were a few yearsw later and Zep a year or two after that.

Ginger Baker was light years beyond Keith Moon at any point in their respective careers, and just because you weren't aware of the guy until Cream came along doesn't mean that he wasn't already Ginger Baker.

Keith Moon was just wild and energetic. He was a good showman who kicked over his drums and became famous for playing in an enormously popular band. He's no Ginger Baker, never mind a John Bonham.

I wasn't aware of him, nor was most anyone else. Keith, not so much.

As I have already said, Keith deserves credit for being a good drummer and being a great innovator. Baker may have been innovating as well in some club in England, but, Keith was doing it in pop rock of the day. He was Ringo....with skillz.

smackaholic wrote:As I have already said, Keith deserves credit for being a good drummer and being a great innovator.

What, exactly, is it you think he "innovated"?

I'll help you out... the answer is "absolutely nothing."

Again -- he was a great showman with limited skills and talent.

Should I post some live clips where he has trouble staying in rhythm? That would be typical of his live performances.

Dinsdale wrote:Smackie -- your comparison of Moon and Bonzo is fairly accurate... if your definition of "fairly accurate" is "the exact opposite of reality."

Very likely. Please expound. Specifically, what did I say that was incorrect? And don't say "everything."

Moon brought extreme energy

No argument there, and I don't think I implied otherwise.

and a pretty mediocre skillset.

So educate me. What could Bonzo do that Moon couldn't? How did Moon's mediocrity manifest itself? Was he off-time? What could he have done differently that would have made him a better drummer?

Bonham completely changed the way all rock drummers who followed viewed the role of the (dual) bass drum.

And that made him a superior drummer? Nothing else? Give me an example of a Zep song featuring drumming that Moon could not have done, and the reasons you believe he couldn't have done it.

Those guys really shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath.

Really? Because of the differences in their skillsets - Bonzo was that much better? Or because of their respective styles? Seems to me comparisons between drummers of R&R HoF English rock quartets who emerged during the mid-late 60s are valid. Who would be a better drummer to compare to Bonham? To Moon?

smackaholic, that's just it: Keith Moon didn't innovate anything, other than being a spastic attention whore behind his kit. Nothing about his actual drumming was the least bit revolutionary, much less musical, unless you consider fucking up a lot and constantly sounding like you're tossing your drumset down the stairs in a clattering racket to be particularly innovative.

Smackie wrote:Who would be a better drummer to compare to Bonham?

Tony Thompson or Omar Hakim.

To Moon?

Mitch Mitchell, although that would be insulting to Mitch.

Van wrote:smackaholic, that's just it: Keith Moon didn't innovate anything, other than being a spastic attention whore behind his kit. Nothing about his actual drumming was the least bit revolutionary, much less musical, unless you consider fucking up a lot and constantly sounding like you're tossing your drumset down the stairs in a clattering racket to be particularly innovative.

I'm sure he did moer than his fair share of fukking up live, considering it was a medical miracle that he was conscious at the time, given the amount of drugs in his system, but, dude did have chops and pertty damn good feel, IMO.

He couldn't have been any more lit than Bonzo usually was, and still that guy nailed it every night.

Bonham was a force of nature. Moon was a circus sideshow.

Van wrote:the studio version of "Achilles' Last Stand" would be my pick for showcasing Bonzo at his untouchable finest. To that I would also add "Fool in the Rain," which is an example of one of those things you mentioned, i.e., something Bonham played that Keith Moon never in a million years could have pulled off.

Thanks. Not that I haven't heard both innumerable times, but I'll give 'em a closer listen to try to hear what you're talking about. I don't know jack shit about drumming techniques or why one drummer would be able to do something another couldn't, but I'll try to figure it out.

I'm picturing Bonham & Moon, both in their prime and relatively sober, in the same studio behind their respective drum kits, participating in a "drum-off" similar to a game of H-O-R-S-E. Each would play something in hopes the other couldn't repeat it. I find it difficult to imagine either could do much the other couldn't, but I could be wrong. Maybe you could specify a portion of, say, "Fool in the Rain" that you believe would be impossible for Moon to have played, and why.

Chanman -- what Moon couldn't do, was play with any sort of dynamics or giving a shit about what song he was playing.

While the Who weren't big on ballads, I'll enter as evidence Love Ain't For Keeping. Nice, pretty melody -- that Moon insisted on smashing every stroke on, like he was beating LTS's head in after yet another bad take.

Then listen to... take your pick of any Zep ballad.

That's all anyone needs to compare the two. One guy understood music, the other understood caveman.

Smackie, that entire half-time shuffle in "Fool in the Rain" has stymied drummers forever, particularly rock drummers. (It's the whole anti-Neil Peart argument about a technical master who nevertheless can't 'swing' his way out of a paper bag.) How a guy who had the thunderous power displayed in "Achilles' Last Stand" could have possibly pulled off the completely authentic Caribbean feel—as if he grew up playing steel drums in Kingston—of "Fool in the Rain" is a testament to Bonzo's otherworldly talent. He nailed it so goddammned effortlessly, just off the top of his booze-addled head.

I've spoken with reggae drummers who couldn't believe it. They were half-convinced that Page must have brought in or sampled Carlton Bennett for that track.

The thing is, even Carlton Bennett may not have been able to pull off "Fool in the Rain," and he sure as hell couldn't have managed "Achilles' Last Stand." Also, as smackaholic already alluded to, Bonham did things with just one bass drum that most drummers can't manage with two. That's what Page is referencing in "Good Times, Bad Times."

In keeping with the randomness off this thread I'd like to know if anyone likes any kind of rockabilly honky tonk stuff. I generally like fast loud rock and roll, but the band Two Tons of Steel is kick ass to see live. Every Tuesday during the summer they play at historical Gruene Hall and they are a popular act at a lot of Texas events like street dances and festivals. they play about twice a month at the Broken Spoke in Austin and I like to catch them as often as I can. Only in Texas can I get my wife on a dance floor to cut the rug to a Ramones song.

No love for Carl Palmer here?

I'm pretty sure he played two bass drums at the same time...while spinning in mid-air.

Smackie, speaking to what Dins mentioned regarding Moon's lack of empathy for the song and his utter dearth of dynamics vs Bonham's seamless fluidity, here's a perfect example of a toweringly powerful drummer who nevertheless knows not just when but how to pull back and nail a slow groove replete with slick fills and silky synchopation...



He plays the song perfectly, never getting in the way, yet there's also never a moment's doubt as to who's driving.

'Spray, I would gladly offer up this song and "Fool in the Rain" as examples of a white guy whose rhythm is as funky and note-perfect as any black drummer's. In that same vein I would then offer up SRV or Steve Cropper as examples of white guitarists whose sense of rhythm was as solid as it gets.

Dinsdale wrote:Chanman -- what Moon couldn't do, was play with any sort of dynamics or giving a shit about what song he was playing.

While the Who weren't big on ballads, I'll enter as evidence Love Ain't For Keeping. Nice, pretty melody -- that Moon insisted on smashing every stroke on, like he was beating LTS's head in after yet another bad take.

Then listen to... take your pick of any Zep ballad.

That's all anyone needs to compare the two. One guy understood music, the other understood caveman.

Fair enough. I probably relate more easily to Moon's style because I'm only marginally more evolved than cavemen, if at all.

Interestingly (or perhaps not), just about every poll of greatest rock drummers includes Bonzo & Moon in the top 5. Not that any of the polls are worth a shit, but the fact that they are usually separated by no more than a ranking spot or two (with Bonzo always ahead) indicates that their being "mentioned in the same breath" is not terribly uncommon.

The Rolling Stone Readers' Poll has Bonzo & Moon at 1 & 2. However, it also has Dave Grohl at 4, Ringo at 5, and Ginger Baker at 9, so take it for what it's worth. Stylus magazine has Bonzo & Moon at 1 & 2. Digital Dream Door & shareranks.com both have Peart, Bonzo, & Moon in the top 3 in that order. Totaldrumsets.com has Peart, Bonzo, Carl Palmer, & Moon as 1-4. Whatever shortcomings Moon may have had musically or technically, he seems to have compensated for with style, reputation, & image.

Style, reputation, image, and being smart enough to die young so that legend could usurp reality. It worked for Kurt Cobain and James Dean, and it worked for Keith Moon.

Lumping Moon purely as a drummer with people like Palmer, Peart and Bonzo is just plain silly. The only thing he has in common with them is similar notoriety due to being the drummer for a megaband.

Love the Beatles, but, anyone that ranks Ringo higher than a middle of the pack garage band drummer is a fool. Sorry, but dude just didn't have it. Charlie Watts pretty much ditto. 2 motherfukkers in the right place at the right time.

And yeah, I think Bonzo and SRV think smackie is smokin' some good shit in regards to the white folks ain't got no rhythm take. SRV had more soul in his guitar pick than any balck geeetarist out there.

Getting back to Moon. Yeah, he pertty much did sound like a drum kit falling down a staircase, but, when he was on, he did it with feel and timing.

My list of favorite drummers. Really hard to rank them as they all have their strengths.

Bonzo- Best feel. Dude grooves even harder than he hits.
Joe Morello-Favorite jazz drummer. So musical
Stewart Copeland-Fukking amazing technique
Peart-Nobody can touch his fills. So what if he swings like a rusty gate
Carl Palmer-Buddy Rich's favorite rock drummer.
Moon-Yeah, he's a wreck, but, it works for me.
Buddy Rich-world class asshole. not the most musical sounding, but, I dare you to watch him play and not think to yourself, no fukking way, a human can't do that.