Can someone explain the near universal hatred for Duke?

Van · Post by **Van** » Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:43 am

Those who ignore history are—

Oh, never mind.

Van · Post by **Van** » Tue Apr 03, 2012 3:00 am

Mgo, ask those same writers and analysts your question once UCLA is back in refurbished Pauley. Then ask them how UCLA managed a FF three-peat only four seasons ago while indiana hasn't made an appearance since 2002, and 1992 before that.

See, "right now" will not be right now next year and the year after that. UCLA will no longer be where they are right now.

Go ahead and explain how it's such a reach that a program like UCLA could get back to the FF in short order when they were just there four years ago. You put all this stock in Indiana's new coach while saying UCLA may have a new coach too, as if that would be a bad thing.

Considering their current coach is the one who led them to that very recent three-peat, who knows, maybe replacing him would be a bad thing. Then again, it's not as if UCLA will have to scrape the bottom of the barrel in order to entice a quality guy to come to Westwood and coach in their new palace. It's still L.A. That insanely rich recruiting base remains intact.

Meanwhile, Indiana hasn't done a damn thing without Bobby freaking Knight, and that includes this season.

Terry in Crapchester · Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:03 pm

smackaholic wrote:Kids leave Duke early, just like any school, but, Kyyrzzzzkkssttszdfogierneireoebghski seems to have a knack for holding them longer than other top teir programs. Are you saying this is not the case?

Beg to differ. The top seven on Kansas' roster this year included two seniors and five juniors. http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball ... kaa/roster

Granted, that's only a snapshot, but there don't seem to be nearly as many one-and-dones at Kansas as there are at other elite programs.

smackaholic · Post by **smackaholic** » Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:19 pm

Terry,

Did a little actual research and it seems that coach K kinda sucks at retaining talent too, nowadays. I know he was known for it, not all that long ago, but, oh well.

Kansas having a pair of seniors prolly does have something to do with their being where they are. UConn's 3 rings were all the result of them being able to retain key players, although, that is less the case with the most recent ring. That one just kinda came out of nowhere.

And good luck with your chick's team. They are UConn's new nemesis, but, I will still be pulling for them again baylor.

Screw_Michigan · Post by **Screw_Michigan** » Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:23 pm

smackaholic wrote:And good luck with your chick's team. They are UConn's new nemesis, but, I will still be pulling for them again baylor.

I saw Skylar Diggins play for South Bend Washington when I was living in SB. I would have to say, especially for her size, she's the best women's player ever. Any jackass can be born tall like Tina Charles or Rebecca Lobo but to to be 5'5 and always be the best player on the floor is amazing.

MgoBlue-LightSpecial · Tue Apr 03, 2012 5:01 pm

Well, preseason polls are already starting to come out. Look where one well known basketball writer has IU ranked:

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketb ... ng-2012-13

But go on thinking UCLA is in better shape right now based on... what, again? Oh, because of Pauley Pavilion and because it says UCLA on their jerseys and because a bunch of players that aren't around anymore made a Final Four six years ago and because they MIGHT land a bunch of really good players while Indiana actually IS landing really good players.

Van · Post by **Van** » Tue Apr 03, 2012 5:36 pm

They made a FF four years ago, as well as five years ago and six years ago.

The point is that when they're good they're better than Indiana, and there is nothing preventing them from becoming good again once Pauley is finished.

Indiana? They have to show they can actually do something. Until they do, I'll bet on UCLA to get back sooner...because they nearly always do.

Screw_Michigan · Post by **Screw_Michigan** » Tue Apr 03, 2012 5:45 pm

Van wrote:there is nothing preventing them from becoming good again once Pauley is finished.

You mean other than their current coach and AD?

MgoBlue-LightSpecial · Tue Apr 03, 2012 6:17 pm

Van wrote:They made a FF four years ago, as well as five years ago and six years ago.

The point is that when they're good they're better than Indiana, and there is nothing preventing them from becoming good again once Pauley is finished.

Indiana? They have to show they can actually do something. Until they do, I'll bet on UCLA to get back sooner...because they nearly always do.

You're a fool. The two programs could not be heading in more opposite directions. IU will go into the season a top 5-10 team. If Zeller stays, they will have a legitimate shot to get to the Final Four next season. If he leaves, they will still have the talent to compete at a very high level over the next 2-3 years, at minimum. You are an absolute jackass if you think UCLA is currently sitting in a BETTER position than Indiana to get back to a Final Four. You're basing your arguments on some fantasy projections. I'm basing mine on a live look-in at reality.

Just stop.

Van · Post by **Van** » Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:03 pm

I'm basing my arguments on constantly repeated history and the knowledge that what's holding UCLA back right now will not remain the case in a year or two, while Indiana has yet to show that they can get over the hump.

Basically, I'm betting that Indiana won't nut up and take advantage of this brief window of opportunity while UCLA is in the toilet. UCLA will get their shit back together before Indiana actually does something.

Screwball, when are you going to get it through your thick skull that this same coach led UCLA to a FF three-peat only four seasons ago? No other coach has done that since Coach K did it forever ago. No other coach has been to as many FFs in the past six seasons...you know, as in really recently. Clearly, he's capable of getting UCLA into the mix.

Shit, and I hate UCLA. I'd rather see Indiana than UCLA win eight days a week. Still, to ignore who they are and how easily they can turn things around is just foolish; which, I suppose, is precisely why you and Mgo are so bent on doing so.

smackaholic · Post by **smackaholic** » Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:35 am

I still think the building argument is a joke.

Is there a such thing as home court advantage?

Sure.

But, it is not the building. It is the thousands of screaming idiots that fill the building. If Cameron fell over tomorrow, Duke would find another place to stuff their thousands of asshole fans and they'd have a similar effect.

There is one case I can think of where the building itself mattered. The old Gahhhden. That decrepit parquet floor had all sorts of loose boards and Larry Bird knew where every one was. His opponents didn't. And, he benefited from this.

Van · Post by **Van** » Wed Apr 04, 2012 3:01 am

And do you think UCLA has the same home court advantage as well as the same recruiting appeal playing their home games on USC's campus in a decrepit old shithole compared to a shiny new college hoops equivalent of Lambeau Field directly on campus in beautiful Westwood? Do you think they draw the same crowd?

Do you think, period?

MgoBlue-LightSpecial · Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:28 pm

smackaholic wrote:But, it is not the building. It is the thousands of screaming idiots that fill the building.

Which is why MSU got their asses kicked at Indiana this year. That place is a god damn nut house. Watch some YouTube vids of Assembly Hall. Easily one of the toughest places to play in the country when IU has a pulse. I'm willing to bet IU Fan blows away UCLA Fan even on a bad day.

Van, I guess all I can do now is throw this shit in the "shot call" forum and bump your idiocy when the time comes. IU was two games away from a FF this year without any expectations. You're going to need Crean to somehow crash and burn with all this talent, while hoping UCLA gets really good in short order. It could happen, I just fail to see how the percentages are in UCLA's favor given all the relevant factors like...players who play the game. Your argument is UCLA could land a bunch of really good players. Mine is IU has landed a bunch of really good players. This couldn't be a bigger case of Pac12BSHism. UCLA is going to be playing a serious game of catch-up to Indiana, so yeah, you have little choice but to put all your eggs in this basket of hoping IU somehow does nothing while UCLA suddenly becomes awesome.

Van · Post by **Van** » Wed Apr 04, 2012 4:50 pm

You moron, this has nothing to do with Pac 12 homerism and everything to do with my faith in Indiana to remain Indiana. I don't like UCLA. I don't root for them. I'd rather see anyone but maybe Kentucky under John Calipari go to a Final Four. I'd definitely rather see Indiana make the FF. I like Indiana. I've always rooted for them. I've never rooted for UCLA.

However, I am aware of history, both recent and overall. When UCLA is good, they go places. Indiana simply hasn't done a thing since Knight left. I'm not counting on anything magical for UCLA. I'm counting on them returning to a FF sometime soon, once they get their house back in order. I'm also not counting on anything magical from Indiana. I'm simply counting on them to fall short of reaching the FF, same as they almost always do.

I won't worry about their recruits until I seem them actually cutting down nets at a Regional Final. I've seen that act with UCLA. Three times in the past six years, as a matter of fact. Do you even recall the last time Indiana did it, or the time before that? For their most recent one you were just out of high school. You were in fifth grade for the one before that.

They'll need to prove it before I believe it. If they prove me wrong, so be it. I'll live. If they prove you wrong, what will you say?

MgoBlue-LightSpecial · Wed Apr 04, 2012 5:35 pm

Van wrote:I won't worry about their recruits until I seem them actually cutting down nets at a Regional Final. I've seen that act with UCLA. Three times in the past six years, as a matter of fact. Do you even recall the last time Indiana did it, or the time before that? For their most recent one you were just out of high school. You were in fifth grade for the one before that.

All things being equal with the current state of both programs, I could understand giving UCLA the edge by defaulting to overall history. Things aren't equal. Right now there's a chasm between the two programs and it could get much bigger. I mean, who do you think has a better chance of reaching a FF next season? And the season after that? Just pick a team.

They'll need to prove it before I believe it. If they prove me wrong, so be it. I'll live. If they prove you wrong, what will you say?

I'll say I was wrong, like I always do when I'm wrong.

Van · Post by **Van** » Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:24 pm

UCLA will move back into a fully refurbished Pauley Pavilion for the 2012-2013 season. Dumbass Guerrero has given in and will now allow the student section to be relocated down to the sidelines where it belongs.

Indiana likely has a very small window here in which to make hay, and I'm betting they don't get it done.

smackaholic · Post by **smackaholic** » Wed Apr 04, 2012 11:31 pm

What Mgoo said about hoosier fan. College hoops is a religion in Indiana. Has been for a long time.

LA? Not so much. LA is the worst sports town on the planet. The NFL is proof.

Could UCLA return to greatness?

Sure.

But to think it is some sort of lock is crazy.

Van · Post by **Van** » Thu Apr 05, 2012 1:56 am

smackaholic wrote:What Mgoo said about hoosier fan. College hoops is a religion in Indiana. Has been for a long time.

It's always been that way there, and still they've done next-to-nothing over the last twenty years. I'm counting on more of the same.

Could UCLA return to greatness?

Sure.

But to think it is some sort of lock is crazy.

Who said it's a lock? I just said I'd bet on them getting back to a FF/title before Indiana does, mainly because I don't trust Indiana to get back anytime soon. I woudn't be surprised if they go another ten years without a FF appearance. I would be surprised if UCLA suffers a similar drought.

ucantdoitdoggieSTyle2 · Thu Apr 05, 2012 12:34 pm

Van, do you thinking winning an argument = having the last post in a thread?

Or... are you just killing time in between bradhusker replies? Sheesh.

Goober McTuber · Post by **Goober McTuber** » Thu Apr 05, 2012 2:15 pm

Regarding the 20 year thing with Indiana, their last good team was 1992-93 (conference champs, 31-4, Elite

. By that time Bobby Knight had been there over 20 years and from that point on his teams were good but not great. It almost seems like he was just playing out the string at that point.

After Knight was booted in 2000, the Hoosiers were coached by Mike Davis, Kelvin Sampson and Dan Dakich. Not exactly a stellar lineup. Now they finally have a top level coach again in Crean, and they’re going to return to a spot in college basketball’s elite. UCLA may also get there, but Magoo is right. They won’t get there as soon as Indiana does.

MgoBlue-LightSpecial · Thu Apr 05, 2012 2:19 pm

ucantdoitdoggieSTyle2 wrote:Van, do you thinking winning an argument = having the last post in a thread?

Yes. He can have the last word, I just can't do it anymore. Going against a man armed with obsessive persistence and lots of time on his hands is a losing proposition.

Goober McTuber · Post by **Goober McTuber** » Thu Apr 05, 2012 2:28 pm

MgoBlue-LightSpecial wrote:
ucantdoitdoggieSTyle2 wrote:Van, do you thinking winning an argument = having the last post in a thread?
Yes. He can have the last word, I just can't do it anymore. Going against a man armed with obsessive persistence and lots of time on his hands is a losing proposition.

Quitter.

King Crimson · Post by **King Crimson** » Thu Apr 05, 2012 4:07 pm

Goober McTuber wrote:Regarding the 20 year thing with Indiana, their last good team was 1992-93 (conference champs, 31-4, Elite . By that time Bobby Knight had been there over 20 years and from that point on his teams were good but not great. It almost seems like he was just playing out the string at that point.

After Knight was booted in 2000, the Hoosiers were coached by Mike Davis, Kelvin Sampson and Dan Dakich. Not exactly a stellar lineup. Now they finally have a top level coach again in Crean, and they’re going to return to a spot in college basketball’s elite. UCLA may also get there, but Magoo is right. They won’t get there as soon as Indiana does.

Tom Crean is a really good coach. Kelvin Sampson may not understand or care about NCAA rules w/ regard cell phones, but the guy did take Oklahoma to the Final Four and Elite Eight. and won the Big XII tournament several times with about 6 legit d-1 players. to say Kelvin can't coach isn't accurate.

Kelvin lost to Mike Davis in the final four which is a head-scratcher, but Bob Stoops lost to Dan Hawkins...so, Gary Williams Terp national championship included a beatdown in Norman i saw in person. Kelvin also beat the Kansas team Maryland beat for the big prize.

as far as gyms go, Pauley is getting a lot of love...but, i'd love to see a game at Assembly Hall. that's a serious gym, too.

still not exactly sure why Van is pimping UCLA so hard...

King Crimson · Post by **King Crimson** » Thu Apr 05, 2012 4:13 pm

http://soonerstats.com/basketball/men/s ... ?oppid=229

the national champ Terp team loses 72-56 in Norman. yeah, Kelvin was a weird hire for IU....but he mos def doesn't suck. game wasn't even that close. Baxter, Wilcox, Blake, Juan Dixon on the short end....

Screw_Michigan · Post by **Screw_Michigan** » Thu Apr 05, 2012 4:37 pm

King Crimson wrote:still not exactly sure why Van is pimping UCLA so hard...

PAC12BSH, nothing more, nothing less.

Van · Post by **Van** » Thu Apr 05, 2012 5:53 pm

You're an idiot.

Van wrote:You moron, this has nothing to do with Pac 12 homerism and everything to do with my faith in Indiana to remain Indiana. I don't like UCLA. I don't root for them. I'd rather see anyone but maybe Kentucky under John Calipari go to a Final Four. I'd definitely rather see Indiana make the FF. I like Indiana. I've always rooted for them. I've never rooted for UCLA.

However, I am aware of history, both recent and overall. When UCLA is good, they go places. Indiana simply hasn't done a thing since Knight left. I'm not counting on anything magical from UCLA. I'm counting on them returning to a FF sometime soon, once they get their house back in order. I'm also not counting on anything magical from Indiana. I'm simply counting on them to fall short of reaching the FF, same as they almost always do.

ucant, answering posts specifically directed to me isn't a case of trying to get the last word in. It's called 'responding.'

Goober McTuber · Post by **Goober McTuber** » Thu Apr 05, 2012 7:17 pm

Maybe I should get my title changed to "World Renowned Responding Whore".

ucantdoitdoggieSTyle2 · Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:17 pm

Van wrote:It's called 'responding.'

Yeah... I get that. At some point, though, someone has to stop posting though. Is it ever you? I mean, there's always a reply. If everyone used your logic, no thread would end... ever.

I won't respond to whatever your response is. Just an FYI.

Van · Post by **Van** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 2:11 am

Yeah, "soon" can happen mighty quickly when UCLA has their shit back together, which appears to be the case...

http://basketballrecruiting.rivals.com/ ... ID=1353952

UCLA lands nation's top player in Muhammed

"It was down to Kentucky, Duke and UCLA and I chose to be a Bruin," Muhammad said during a televised appearance on ESPNU. "I'll be at UCLA next year."

According to Muhammad, he felt the most comfortable with the UCLA staff and was intrigued by the challenge of helping to bring the Bruins back to national prominence.

"I just think it's a challenge," Muhammad said. "Knowing how bad they were these last two years, it's a challenge to really get them back up to the top knowing they are the leaders in all-time championships with 11."

But the Muhammad commitment isn't about easing the sting of a few rough years. It's all about helping one of college basketball's bluebloods accelerate a return to prominence.

Not only do the Bruins have the nation's top player coming next year, they also have the nation's third-best player in Kyle Anderson and the No. 62 overall player, Jordan Adams, joining them. The trio will mix with a solid group of veterans and add serious perimeter firepower to a team that will not lack for interior options.

Pauley's back this season and, hey, whaddya know, out of the blue UCLA lands the #'s 1 and 3 prospects in the country.

Who woulda thunkit?

Shine · Post by **Shine** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:24 pm

I think green is a more fitting color choice than blue, what with UCLA paying to get the kid there. It always works well for a program in turmoil to recruit a kid the NCAA has already sent letters out about questioning his amateur status.

But I'm sure the arena being back open is what influenced his decision.

Van · Post by **Van** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 6:44 pm

It absolutely influenced his decision. No way he goes there for a very probable one-and-done if UCLA is still stuck playing on USC's campus in the dumpy old L.A. Sports Arena.

MgoBlue-LightSpecial · Sat Dec 08, 2012 11:04 pm

Watching this Texas-UCLA cripple fight got me thinking...man, Van is SO right! UCLA is clearly on the faster track to get back to the Final 4, it's not even up for debate. Unranked, in shambles and losing to Cal Poly. But, but, but...how could this be! They have Ben Howland! And the #1 player out of high school! Meanwhile, IU sits atop the top 25, has ridiculous talent at every position and treated North Carolina like they were some hapless directional school.

Mace · Post by **Mace** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 12:25 am

Yep, and Duke is ranked #2 while UCONN is unranked....but UCONN is undoubtedly better than Duke because their cheating coach left the program in great condition when he left. :roll:
Calhoun obviously knew that cheating was the only way to raise the UCONN program out of obscurity and, during the process, won 3 national titles. Props to the cheaters.....and now back to obscurity. Your 15 minutes are up.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketb ... -to-retire

Van · Post by **Van** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:27 am

MgoBlue-LightSpecial wrote:Watching this Texas-UCLA cripple fight got me thinking...man, Van is SO right! UCLA is clearly on the faster track to get back to the Final 4, it's not even up for debate. Unranked, in shambles and losing to Cal Poly. But, but, but...how could this be! They have Ben Howland! And the #1 player out of high school! Meanwhile, IU sits atop the top 25, has ridiculous talent at every position and treated North Carolina like they were some hapless directional school.

You were saying?

Yeah, maybe we just ought to let this all play out.

MgoBlue-LightSpecial · Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:51 am

I'm sorry, what's changed? Because IU lost a game yesterday? Big deal. There are 7 ranked teams in the Big Ten...everyone is going to lose some games. The champ will probably wind up with 4-6 losses.

Yeah, maybe we just ought to let this all play out.

No problem. I'm not saying it's impossible UCLA could get back there before Indiana, but it's plainly obvious to any rational person that IU is in a better position at this point, not just this current team, but the program in general... which was the basis of the argument. Not sure why that's so hard to admit.

Screw_Michigan · Post by **Screw_Michigan** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:00 am

MgoBlue-LightSpecial wrote:treated North Carolina like they were some hapless directional school.

Technically North Carolina is a directional school.

Van · Post by **Van** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:50 pm

It's easy to admit, just as it's easy to admit that history shows us UCLA gets to the Final Four more often than Indiana does, including more recently. When UCLA is good and playing at Pauley and not the Sports Arena, they tend to get there more frequently than Indiana does. With UCLA back at Pauley and sporting a hellacious recruiting class it's not particularly difficult to envision them coming out of the West again. As Kentucky has shown, these days a team led by underclassmen can get it done. No longer is senior leadership a prerequisite for going deep in the Tourney.

The thing is, if UCLA does get there sooner than Indiana (say, this year, for example), you'll likely just call it a lucky fluke. If Indiana gets there first, you'll say, "I told ya so!" What you apparently will not do is admit that you're ignoring history, including recent history.

That's fine. Like I said, let's just see how it all plays out.

MgoBlue-LightSpecial · Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:47 pm

Van wrote:It's easy to admit, just as it's easy to admit that history shows us UCLA gets to the Final Four more often than Indiana does, including more recently. When UCLA is good and playing at Pauley and not the Sports Arena, they tend to get there more frequently than Indiana does. With UCLA back at Pauley and sporting a hellacious recruiting class it's not particularly difficult to envision them coming out of the West again. As Kentucky has shown, these days a team led by underclassmen can get it done. No longer is senior leadership a prerequisite for going deep in the Tourney.

Yeah, okay, dude.

Just keep hanging onto that as it's all you've got.

The thing is, if UCLA does get there sooner than Indiana (say, this year, for example), you'll likely just call it a lucky fluke. If Indiana gets there first, you'll say, "I told ya so!" What you apparently will not do is admit that you're ignoring history, including recent history.

No, I won't. I think I have a pretty good track record of coming correct on this board. I don't think it's possible to get to a Final Four on a fluke -- you have to beat four good teams in a row to get there.

Screw_Michigan · Post by **Screw_Michigan** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:06 pm

Is UCLAme even ranked?

Van · Post by **Van** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:12 pm

MgoBlue-LightSpecial wrote:
Van wrote:It's easy to admit, just as it's easy to admit that history shows us UCLA gets to the Final Four more often than Indiana does, including more recently. When UCLA is good and playing at Pauley and not the Sports Arena, they tend to get there more frequently than Indiana does. With UCLA back at Pauley and sporting a hellacious recruiting class it's not particularly difficult to envision them coming out of the West again. As Kentucky has shown, these days a team led by underclassmen can get it done. No longer is senior leadership a prerequisite for going deep in the Tourney.
Yeah, okay, dude.

Just keep hanging onto that as it's all you've got.

That's all I need: history (recent and otherwise) combined with talent.

Oh, and their ever-improving 14-3 record doesn't hurt either. With a team led by freshmen, it stands to reason that they would start slowly before building a head of steam.

The thing is, if UCLA does get there sooner than Indiana (say, this year, for example), you'll likely just call it a lucky fluke. If Indiana gets there first, you'll say, "I told ya so!" What you apparently will not do is admit that you're ignoring history, including recent history.
No, I won't. I think I have a pretty good track record of coming correct on this board. I don't think it's possible to get to a Final Four on a fluke -- you have to beat four good teams in a row to get there.

Which is something that UCLA has shown a much greater propensity than Indiana to do, so why would it be such a stretch for them to do it again?