Good vs Evil

[War Wagon]

Let the hate flow...

Butler scored 41 points. The last time a team scored less than 50 in a national championship game was 1949. That was so long ago Jim Calhoun was only 6 years old and hadn't committed his first NCAA violation yet.

[indyfrisco]

Calhoun should step down and beg Stephens to take over.

I predicted this over the weekend talking b-ball with my buddies. We'll see what happens...

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

Props to UCONN. They should've won that game by 30 but they played almost as pitifully as Butler. That game was like watching a Wisconsin red/white scrimmage.

[Goober McTuber]

Props to UCONN. They should've won that game by 30 but they played almost as pitifully as Butler. That game was like watching a Wisconsin red/white scrimmage.

Yes, but they will need to work on their flopping skills.

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

Yes, but they will need to work on their flopping skills.

That's why I like Matt Howard. He doesn't throw himself to the ground like a little bitch. He gets in perfect positition to take a real knocked-the-fuck-out charge.

[Dinsdale]

Let the hate flow...

Butler scored 41 points. The last time a team scored less than 50 in a national championship game was 1949.

Which was before the advent of the shot clock.

[King Crimson]

Let the hate flow...

Butler scored 41 points. The last time a team scored less than 50 in a national championship game was 1949.

Which was before the advent of the shot clock.

yeah, but only by about 30 years.

[MuchoBulls]

UConn was a nothing of a school in the toughest conference in America when Calhoun arrived there 86.

They used to be in the ACC?

Rack

I'm pretty sure the ACC wasn't putting 3 teams in the Final Four back then.

[ucantdoitdoggieSTyle2]

That was so long ago Jim Calhoun was only 6 years old and hadn't committed his first NCAA violation yet.

Remind me again, what his first violation was?

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

Anyway...what it boiled down to was two mediocre teams played for the national title.

UCONN this year was not mediocre, not good, but a GREAT tournament team. Won every tourney they played in: Maui, Big East Tourney, NCAA tourney.

[ucantdoitdoggieSTyle2]

Jesus fuck, Sam. Just say that an SEC team really won the championship and be done with it.

Who won it all Sam? Bama... Kentucky, LJSCU810, Fla... who Sam? Tell me.

[Mr T]

I'm pretty sure the ACC wasn't putting 3 teams in the Final Four back then.

You want to talk final fours

Total # of Final Fours
ACC - 42
Big East - 16

[ucantdoitdoggieSTyle2]

You want to talk final fours?

No... we don't, dumbfuck. We were discussing the toughest conference in 1986... ya know, the year after the Big East placed 3 teams in the Final Four? Also, the year after the Big East won back to back National Championships. Feel free to follow along and stuff.

[Mace]

I long for the days of kids staying 3-4 years, building an actual team, ya' know? Then you had great teams playing in the latter stages of the tournament.

I suspect there are a shitload of college coaches who long for that too, as it would make their jobs a bit easier.

[smackaholic]

I long for the days of kids staying 3-4 years, building an actual team, ya' know? Then you had great teams playing in the latter stages of the tournament.

I suspect there are a shitload of college coaches who long for that too, as it would make their jobs a bit easier.

I miss those days as well. Kyyyzrrzzzzsssseffff......the duke coach seems to be the only big time college coach capable of hanging onto uncle toms kids these days and it looks like he might have lost that ability as well with his freshman announcing he was going for the paycheck next year.

UConn's first two titles were the result of a big time player uncharacteristically deciding to hang around an extra year. Hamilton and Oakafore both could have left early. Walker is a bit different in that he kind of came out of nowhere.

I hope the NCAA someday stops pretending they have purely amateur student athletes. They don't. These kids are hired guns there for one reason. Let's stop pretending otherwise and pay them. Another option might be to let them enter the draft, earn a check, but stay with their college teams to "develop". This is exactly how it's been done with baseball's farm system for evah.

[Mace]

I hope the NCAA someday stops pretending they have purely amateur student athletes. They don't. These kids are hired guns there for one reason. Let's stop pretending otherwise and pay them. Another option might be to let them enter the draft, earn a check, but stay with their college teams to "develop". This is exactly how it's been done with baseball's farm system for evah.

I'm opposed to paying the players and would much prefer that the NCAA enforce the rules as written or change the basketball rule to making them ineligible to sign a pro contract until they're three years out of high school.

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

I hope the NCAA someday stops pretending they have purely amateur student athletes. They don't. These kids are hired guns there for one reason. Let's stop pretending otherwise and pay them. Another option might be to let them enter the draft, earn a check, but stay with their college teams to "develop". This is exactly how it's been done with baseball's farm system for evah.

There are 346 D1 programs. Only 0.1% of these players will get drafted. The overwhelming majority ARE student-athletes.

[Carson]

...but the ones that can get you to the big dance are just there for the pussy and the pub.

[buckeye_in_sc]

Finally I get a lottery pick/1st rounder to stick around...

Sin,

Thad Matta

(Oden, Conley, Cook, Kofus, Mullen)

[MuchoBulls]

I'm pretty sure the ACC wasn't putting 3 teams in the Final Four back then.

You want to talk final fours

Total # of Final Fours
ACC - 42
Big East - 16

How many of those were before the Big East was even a conference?

nice try though

[smackaholic]

I hope the NCAA someday stops pretending they have purely amateur student athletes. They don't. These kids are hired guns there for one reason. Let's stop pretending otherwise and pay them. Another option might be to let them enter the draft, earn a check, but stay with their college teams to "develop". This is exactly how it's been done with baseball's farm system for evah.

I'm opposed to paying the players and would much prefer that the NCAA enforce the rules as written or change the basketball rule to making them ineligible to sign a pro contract until they're three years out of high school.

fukk that. pay them. they are generating cash for the schools/networks. and who the fukk are you or anyone else to deny someone the opportunity to make a living as they see fit, so long as they are not harming others. and save the bit about their education being their pay. it's not. they are there to have fun, play ball, get laid and hopefully move on to the NBA. all this pretending to be "student athletes" is a joke.

every time these kids step on the court, they could suffer a career ending injury. many of them come from seriously poor backgrounds. why the fukk should they have to tell momma, sorry, you gotta stay in the hood another 3 years, while i finish my "education", keep your head down. they should be able to negotiate a deal with their schools or enter the draft, get drafted but still be able to play for their college team, with their drafting team holding the rights to them.

they should also do away with the bullshit law that says if they so much as say hi to an agent, they are done.

[ucantdoitdoggieSTyle2]

How many of those were before the Big East was even a conference?

nice try though

Duke and UNC have both been to the Final Four 11 times since the Big East became a conference, which sorta TVO's dwarfs our 16 total. Advantage Tobacco Road... and then some.

[War Wagon]

This is exactly how it's been done with baseball's farm system for evah.

I knew I'd regret clicking on this thread again.

[Terry in Crapchester]

How many of those were before the Big East was even a conference?

nice try though

Duke and UNC have both been to the Final Four 11 times since the Big East became a conference, which sorta TVO's dwarfs our 16 total. Advantage Tobacco Road... and then some.

I had to count them up in my head, but yep.

One advantage the Big East has over the ACC when it comes to Final Fours: All of the original Big East members which are still members of the conference have been to at least one Final Four as a member of the Big East. By contrast, two members of the ACC which have been members of that conference for the entire duration of the Big East's existence have never been to a Final Four during the Big East's existence (Clemson and Wake Forest).

[Mr T]

How many of those were before the Big East was even a conference?

nice try though

Since the Big East was formed...

ACC - 29
Big East - 16

[MuchoBulls]

How many of those were before the Big East was even a conference?

nice try though

Duke and UNC have both been to the Final Four 11 times since the Big East became a conference, which sorta TVO's dwarfs our 16 total. Advantage Tobacco Road... and then some.

They have the overall advantage of Final Fours reached.

Where they don't have the advantage is head to head in the National Title game winner. Big East 2 (UConn with both wins) - ACC 1 (UNC over G'Town in 1982).

[Terry in Crapchester]

How many of those were before the Big East was even a conference?

nice try though

Duke and UNC have both been to the Final Four 11 times since the Big East became a conference, which sorta TVO's dwarfs our 16 total. Advantage Tobacco Road... and then some.

They have the overall advantage of Final Fours reached.

Where they don't have the advantage is head to head in the National Title game winner. Big East 2 (UConn with both wins) - ACC 1 (UNC over G'Town in 1982).

Yeah. Fwiw, Big East and ACC are 3-3 in Final Four matchups overall.

UNC beat G'Town in '82 championship. (1-0 ACC)
UConn beat Duke in '99 championship. (1-1)
UConn beat Duke in '04 semis and Georgia Tech in '04 championship. (3-1 Big East)
UNC beat Villanova in '09 semis. (3-2 Big East)
Duke beat West Virginia in '10 semis. (3-3)

And on further review, both ucant and Mr. T were wrong. Big East has 17 teams in Final Four in its history. The breakdown by school:

UConn: 4 (1999, 2004, 2009, 2011)
Georgetown: 4 (1982, 1984, 1985, 2007)
Syracuse: 3 (1987, 1996, 2003)
Villanova: 2 (1985, 2009)
St. Johns: 1 (1985)
Providence: 1 (1987)
Seton Hall: 1 (1989)
West Virginia: 1 (2010)

Not a fan of either Duke or UNC by any stretch of the imagination, but I'll give both programs props for 11 Final Four appearances since 1981 (UNC) and 1986 (Duke). What's even more amazing is that, since both schools reached the Final Four in the same season on only one occasion (1991), at least one of those schools has been in the Final Four in 21 of the last 31 seasons. Duke also deserves mad props for 7 Final Fours in a 9-season stretch from 1986-1994. I can almost understand how the Sissycrown Wondertwins wound up rooting for Florida State football and Duke basketball. Almost.

[King Crimson]

while i'd argue that the Big 8 was very strong in the mid 80's to early 90's (for a football conference that was a terrible hoops conference until the early-mid 80's...)....as i've posted many times sent 5 of 8 to the NCAA (the same % that ESPN does yoga to blow itself over the Big East--much like the SEC in football)....but no one cares since you are insulated in your more TV's=more coverage and adulation revenue and therefore rewrite of history. :wink:

it's wrong, plain wrong, to discount how strong the ACC was in the 80's and 90's. if you want to pimp the Big East, that's fine. we all know about Carnesaca, Rollie, Boeheim, John Thompson...but UCONN (before Calhoun), Seton Hall, and Providence were not very good. the latter two were not very good minus the one-shot careers of PJ and Pitino.

the ACC had Dean Smith, Crimmins, Valvano (cheater, who we apologize for being dead), K, Lefty, Dave Odoms had some good teams at Wake (the guy won 11 NCAA game by my count on wiki), Terry Holland was still milking it but some good teams with Bryant Stith...that was a tough league. Clemson has always sucked and underachieved in football and basketball, can we just leave them out of future discussions?

the question that is real is why weren't the Big East teams better before they were on TV. I grew up watching that shit on ESPN.

[King Crimson]

anyway, i'm not buying that ACC wasn't tough in the 80's and early 90's since ND is pimping the BE....Dave Odom won 11 NCAA games at Wake. two sweet 16 and an elite 8 for a "bad team" in the conference. 11 NCAA games is nothing to sniff at.

i'd be willing to bet "lower teams" like Providence, Seton Hall, and UCONN....they could not touch that.

[Terry in Crapchester]

while i'd argue that the Big 8 was very strong in the mid 80's to early 90's (for a football conference that was a terrible hoops conference until the early-mid 80's...)....as i've posted many times sent 5 of 8 to the NCAA (the same % that ESPN does yoga to blow itself over the Big East--much like the SEC in football)....but no one cares since you are insulated in your more TV's=more coverage and adulation revenue and therefore rewrite of history. :wink:

I'd say the % argument is somewhat loaded against the Big East, given that every conference gets one automatic bid, and that automatic bid is a much smaller % of the Big East's total teams than it is for other conferences. If you want to argue %, the only way to compare apples to apples is to restrict the argument to at-large bids.

This year there were 37 at-large bids, of which 30 went to the six power conferences (ACC, Big East, B1G, Big XII, Pac-10 and SEC). These six conferences have a combined total of 73 members, subtract out the six automatic bids and that leaves you with 67. The Big East got 10 of 30 automatic bids going to these conferences (33.3%), while having 15 of the 67 members eligible for at-large bids (22.4%). Other conferences, by way of comparison:

B1G: 6 of 30 at-large bids (20.0%); 10 of 67 members eligible for at-large bids (14.9%).
Big XII: 4 of 30 at-large bids (13.3%); 11 of 67 members eligible for at-large bids (16.4%).
SEC: 4 of 30 at-large bids (13.3%); 11 of 67 members eligible for at-large bids (16.4%).
Pac-10: 3 of 30 at-large bids (10.0%); 9 of 67 members eligible for at-large bids (13.4%).
ACC: 3 of 30 at-large bids (10.0%); 11 of 67 members eligible for at-large bids (16.4%).

So only the Big East and the B1G got a higher % of at-large bids than they had of teams eligible for at-large bids, if you restrict the discussion only to % involving the six power conferences.

it's wrong, plain wrong, to discount how strong the ACC was in the 80's and 90's. if you want to pimp the Big East, that's fine. we all know about Carnesaca, Rollie, Boeheim, John Thompson...but UCONN (before Calhoun), Seton Hall, and Providence were not very good. the latter two were not very good minus the one-shot careers of PJ and Pitino.

the ACC had Dean Smith, Crimmins, Valvano (cheater, who we apologize for being dead), K, Lefty, Dave Odoms had some good teams at Wake (the guy won 11 NCAA game by my count on wiki), Terry Holland was still milking it but some good teams with Bryant Stith...that was a tough league. Clemson has always sucked and underachieved in football and basketball, can we just leave them out of future discussions?

No one is discounting how strong the ACC was in the 80's and 90's. In fact, it would be foolhardy for anyone to argue (and no one here has argued) that the ACC wasn't considerably stronger than the Big East, in the 90's. In fact, since we were comparing Final Four appearances, the ACC's most significant advantage over the Big East came in the 90's -- 11-2. No doubt about it, the Big East as a whole was down during the 90's, for the most part.

In the 80's, both the Big East and the ACC managed 8 Final Four appearances. The difference, of course, was that the Big East was in its infancy back then, while the ACC already was an established conference.

Like I said, no one here is attempting to argue that the Big East was as strong in the 90's as the ACC was. That argument can't credibly be made. Applied to the 80's, or to today, however, the argument can be made credibly.

As for a comparison between Wake and Providence, Providence has one Final Four and one Elite 8 appearance under its belt in the Big East era. That's seven NCAA tourney wins right there. Unfortunately for Providence, they have quite a string of one-and-dones in the tourney otherwise.

the question that is real is why weren't the Big East teams better before they were on TV. I grew up watching that shit on ESPN.

Two thoughts:

1. I don't think that argument can be made across the board. Syracuse is a Top 10 program all-time in wins, as is St. John's. Both Villanova and Providence had made a Final Four appearance in the decade preceding the formation of the Big East. And of course, the status of college basketball for most of the decade and a half or so prior to the formation of the Big East was that there was UCLA, and there was everyone else.

2. As for everyone else, perhaps it's a case of the whole being better than the sum of the parts. Wouldn't be the first time that's happened, nor in all likelihood would it be the last. In that regard, there's no question that Big East membership has lifted the programs of some of the more recent members, including Pitt, Notre Dame and West Virginia (the latter two being programs with some tradition of success which had fallen on relatively hard times immediately prior to joining the Big East).

[Goober McTuber]

I'm suddenly quite sorry that I started this thread.

[King Crimson]

Terry: i actually thought we were talking about the past and then you switch to the present:

all-time wins is a straw-pony, much like Penn St's football schedule as an independent....they were playing Bucknell and Army and the Lehigh's of the world for 8 games a year. woo hoo. Yale won a lot of football games.

you make some selective omissions. I guess Pitt, ND, and WV have been raised by the tides....though Pitt and ND seem to be consistently overseeded and out of the NCAA pretty quick (esp this year, as a 1 and 2 or 3 seed).....but, what about Depaul (way down) or Louisville (still good and Pitino, but Denny Crum won two NC's). If Marquette wins the BE, send up the fireworks.

[Terry in Crapchester]

Terry: i actually thought we were talking about the past and then you switch to the present:

I addressed both.

all-time wins is a straw-pony, much like Penn St's football schedule as an independent....they were playing Bucknell and Army and the Lehigh's of the world for 8 games a year. woo hoo. Yale won a lot of football games.

A few years back, I looked up all-time wins. Here's the Top 10 list (done from memory, so it's not in the correct order, but I do have the right teams):

Kentucky
North Carolina
Kansas
Duke
Syracuse
St. John's
Princeton
Temple
UCLA
ND

8 of those 10 teams play in major conferences, and the two schools that don't are both located in or near what could fairly be called basketball hotbeds. Any huge surprises on that list? Not for my money -- I suppose the biggest surprise is probably ND. If memory serves, ND and Indiana were going back and forth for the #10 spot back when I looked up the list, but I'm guessing ND has pulled ahead in that race on the strength of the past few seasons.

you make some selective omissions.

How so?

I guess Pitt, ND, and WV have been raised by the tides....though Pitt and ND seem to be consistently overseeded and out of the NCAA pretty quick (esp this year, as a 1 and 2 or 3 seed)

Pitt, I'll grant you.

ND? Aside from this past year, huh?

ND has made the tourney 7 times since 2001. In that time, ND has been seeded #6 (three times), #5 (twice), #8 (once) and #2 (once, last year). If you were picking ND by chalk, that would've meant a second-round exit every year but this season. And that's where ND has exited as often as not.

[MuchoBulls]

I can almost understand how the Sissycrown Wondertwins wound up rooting for Florida State football and Duke basketball. Almost.

RACK it!!