Cleveland is going to suck a little bit more very soon

[smackaholic]

Hartford tried pulling that shit awhile back.

Sucks when your city is such a fukking hole that you gotta use extortion to keep residents.

Rack tOSC.

[Screw_Michigan]

It's Akron's fault.

[smackaholic]

So, will this get cleveland house prices down to detoilet levels?

[War Wagon]

For many years, Cleveland has vigorously enforced an unfair law against its employees: In order to work for the City of Cleveland, you must reside in the City of Cleveland.

Why is that unfair?

Don't want to live in the City that pays your bills and puts food on your table, don't get a fucking job in said City. Simple as that.

[smackaholic]

Why the fukkk should a city have any say over where you live. It's none of their fukking bidness.

Wanna get people to live in your shithole city, try unfukking it some.

[Screw_Michigan]

RACK Suckaholic (:vomit:). Wags, the whole point is to attract the "best and brightest." You can't attract the best possible candidates for your job if you're extorting them to live in your shithole.

[Wolfman]

Why the fukkk should a city have any say over where you live. It's none of their fukking bidness.
Wanna get people to live in your shithole city, try unfukking it some.

Rack that !!

Too bad for anyone in those neighborhoods that can't make the move.

[Bobby42]

For many years, Cleveland has vigorously enforced an unfair law against its employees: In order to work for the City of Cleveland, you must reside in the City of Cleveland.

Why is that unfair?

Don't want to live in the City that pays your bills and puts food on your table, don't get a fucking job in said City. Simple as that.

Yeah, if the pay was decent enough. It's not. This puts city employees on par with those in the private sector who live where they want and choose to commute. Today...duh, people find jobs where they can find jobs.

I know folks who commute 2 hours to work. They do it because the housing market sucks and/or they have a spouse with a secure, good paying job and unable to relocate.

[smackaholic]

For many years, Cleveland has vigorously enforced an unfair law against its employees: In order to work for the City of Cleveland, you must reside in the City of Cleveland.

Why is that unfair?

Don't want to live in the City that pays your bills and puts food on your table, don't get a fucking job in said City. Simple as that.

Yeah, if the pay was decent enough. It's not. This puts city employees on par with those in the private sector who live where they want and choose to commute. Today...duh, people find jobs where they can find jobs.

I know folks who commute 2 hours to work. They do it because the housing market sucks and/or they have a spouse with a secure, good paying job and unable to relocate.

bobby, it ain't got shit to do with what they're paying. If cleveland wants them to live there so bad, provide free housing or maybe waivers on their property taxes. Commanding them to do so is absolute bullshit and I'm guessing a bit unconstitutional, all though various levels of gubmint don't give a fukk about that.

[War Wagon]

RACK Suckaholic (:vomit:). Wags, the whole point is to attract the "best and brightest." You can't attract the best possible candidates for your job if you're extorting them to live in your shithole.

Tough shit.

If it's such a shithole, why would the "best and brighest" want to work there? Can't they find a decent job elsewhere, if they're so damned bright?

A City should have every right to expect, no, demand that their employees live there.

How about trying to actually improve the place so it's not such a dump in the first place? I'd say police and fireman have a role in being able to make that happen. What kinda' message does it send to the inmates (citizens) when the hired help isn't one of them? Why should anybody give a fuck about their city if the fucking cops don't?

Bottom line is that when they took the job, they knew what they signed up for. Don't like it, quit and move elsewhere. Otherwise, STFU and do your job.

[Screw_Michigan]

Whitey, as explained before, this doesn't have to do with the employees themselves, but their fucking children. I imagine the fight from said Cleveland city employees wouldn't nearly be as bad if they didn't have such sub-standard schools to have to send their kids to, except for private school. Other concerns aren't nearly as grave as those.

[War Wagon]

Why the fukkk should a city have any say over where you live. It's none of their fukking bidness.

It's every bit of their business when it comes to city employees, or at least it should be.

[Screw_Michigan]

If it's such a shithole, why would the "best and brighest" want to work there? Can't they find a decent job elsewhere, if they're so damned bright?

Nice self-defeatist attitude. Proof those cities are shitholes for a reason.

[War Wagon]

Whitey, as explained before, this doesn't have to do with the employees themselves, but their fucking children. I imagine the fight from said Cleveland city employees wouldn't nearly be as bad if they didn't have such sub-standard schools to have to send their kids to, except for private school. Other concerns aren't nearly as grave as those.

Who forced them to take the job?

Who forced them to stay at the job?

Again, if it's such a shithole why would anybody want to work there in the first place?

If, like B42 says, the pay sucks, how do they afford to move to the suburbs?

Seems to me there are 3 choices here.

1. Be a rat and jump from the sinking ship.

2. Be a rat and go down with the sinking ship.

3. Be a man, grab a bucket and start bailing water.

[War Wagon]

If it's such a shithole, why would the "best and brighest" want to work there? Can't they find a decent job elsewhere, if they're so damned bright?

Nice self-defeatist attitude. Proof those cities are shitholes for a reason.

What? How's that self-defeatist?

Choosing not to live in the city that provides your livelihood is self-defeatist.

[smackaholic]

I don't know if I'd call it hyperbole. He did say a little. I suppose it might technically be possible to make cleveland suck a tiny bit more.

[War Wagon]

Still waiting for 88 to explain how it's unfair for a city, any city, to require its employees to actually live there.

[Bobby42]

People should live where they want and it's their choice how far they want to drive to their jobs. As long as they are able to perform their jobs to the satisfaction of the employer. No different than an employee involved in a second job that doesn't conflict with primary employment.

The only issue would be the use of city vehicles to commute. For many city/county/state entities this has been a special perk. We're seeing this going away. But, it would be perfectly reasonable for them to limit the use of city vehicles within a specific radius. If you live outside the city then you cannot use a city vehicle.

[War Wagon]

People should live where they want...

And they should work where they want. And if living where they work and shitting where they eat is too much of a hassle, they should get the fuck out.

[War Wagon]

Why? Because it would be impossible to attract any teachers to teach in the Cleveland Public School system if the City required them to reside in Cleveland. The same is true for attorneys, support staff, doctors and nurses. But cops and firemen haven't got a lot of other options in this region. The suburban cop and fire jobs are very difficult to obtain and there aren't very many of them. Most of the departments are small. The City knew that it could make the cops and firemen reside in the City against their will because those careers simply cannot be pursued elsewhere in this region.

I don't know about Cleveland and its suburbs, but this doesn't make sense. If the opportunities for police and fireman in the region are so limited, it only stands to reason that all other professional opportunities you mentioned would also be limited.

Ergo, that's bullshit.

[PSUFAN]

The City of Pittsburgh has a residency requirement for municipal employees as well. There is not any exemption to this requirement. The city employs contractors in various capacities, and since they work for outside agencies, they have no residency requirement...but their numbers are not significant. If Cleveland allows the mayor's office in particular to be exempted from residency, that's bullshit. Those are the people who should adhere to the law...if any should.

Pittsburgh is similar in that there is a neighborhood that is an enclave for public safety employees. That is the neighborhood where the police shootings took place recently. The deputy police chief heard the shots and ran over a block to the location, he lives that close.

Myself, I am in favor of the requirement (I work for the city). I probably wouldn't be if there were a number of egregious exemptions of the sort you're describing in Cleveland.

I am not sure if there is a residency requirement for employees of Pittsburgh Public Schools.

[Smackie Chan]

I'm not really sure, but I think as a federal employee I'm required to live in the country that employs me. I'll have to look into that.

[War Wagon]

I'm not really sure, but I think as a federal employee I'm required to live in the country that employs me.

That's so unfair.

[Screw_Michigan]

But every time I'm pretty sure that Cleveland cannot suck any worse than it already sucks, a certain town to the west just off the same Great Lake shows the way.

Toledo? Last time I checked, that "town" you're referring to isn't located on Lake Erie.

Cleveland is the Baghdad of the Midwest. Just fucking admit it already.

[Screw_Michigan]

And you don't even have to be a citizen of the United States to serve in our armed forces.

Bodies are bodies, they don't give a shit, unless you have neck/forearm/gang tatts (the latter is even forgiven recently).

[Mister Bushice]

Whitey You are such a fucking retard it is truly hard to fathom the level of tard you consistently maintain.

I cannot count the number of cities I know of where people move to the burbs for a bigger house for their growing family and the parent suffers the commute, to avoid having his/her kids grow up in a shithole city with no backyard, crime all over, bad air, below average schools and no chance to move up to a better place to live within the confines of the city.

Oh and BTW they even have a name for it. It's called White Flight, and it's not a scattered phenomenon. It's worldwide.

Who the fuck would NOT want a better life / place to live for their families? The government has no legal right to restrict the freedom of living where you want to live, as long as you do the job you are paid for.

Obviously if you are an emergency on call employee you would need to live close, but beat cops and off duty fireman are not in that category most of the time.

Do you know you are really stupid?

Now you do.

I don't know about Cleveland and its suburbs, but this doesn't make sense. If the opportunities for police and fireman in the region are so limited, it only stands to reason that all other professional opportunities you mentioned would also be limited.

Ergo, that's bullshit.

Fuckhead,

Suburban populations are lower and the PPSM rate is far lower, thus local emergency services are far lower, and designed to meet the area needs. Crime is also much lower than in a city. The potential for high danger fires are generally lower, as well. All that adds up to no need for a high police or fire presence, comparatively.

Cleveland simply slapped an illegal restriction on their employees that forced those people to stay in the immediate city limit area against their will or they'd lose the job, knowing most would not move to another distant city if they had family in the Cleveland area and that there was no work in the burbs, just houses and a better quality of life.

I grew up 40 minutes outside of a major city. Anyone could have lived there and made it to any job on time under most circumstances, outside of actual all staff emergencies, which are the exception, not the rule.

Are you following this yet, dumbass? The MOST DENSELY POPULATED AREAS (AKA CITIES) HAVE THE GREATEST NEED FOR EMERGENCY SERVICES NO MATTER WHAT THE ECONOMIC STATUS OF THE AREA IS.

But why should anyone have to live there to do their jobs?

I guess Ohio finally got it right, despite the Whitey Wagons that are running Cleveland.

[Smackie Chan]

I'm not really sure, but I think as a federal employee I'm required to live in the country that employs me. I'll have to look into that.

Nope. And you don't even have to be a citizen of the United States to serve in our armed forces.

I was obviously being facetious, since there are many federal jobs where the work place is outside the country. Do city/municipal employees have to be US citizens? (That's a real question.)

[smackaholic]

Ct tried to pull that regionalism bullshit awhile back. They attempted to do the whole busing desegregation thingy that helped ruin the citys during the 70s. They seem to have backed away from it though, as it was political suicide, seeing as us vapid racist suburbanites, even the liberal ones ain't gonna put johnny on the school bus for a 15 mile ride to weaver high school. Weaver, btw, was already about 94% black when I was in school in the 70s. Today it's probably a bit lower, simply because the PRs have fukked their way to a majority in hartford.

[BSmack]

Ct tried to pull that regionalism bullshit awhile back. They attempted to do the whole busing desegregation thingy that helped ruin the citys during the 70s. They seem to have backed away from it though, as it was political suicide, seeing as us vapid racist suburbanites, even the liberal ones ain't gonna put johnny on the school bus for a 15 mile ride to weaver high school. Weaver, btw, was already about 94% black when I was in school in the 70s. Today it's probably a bit lower, simply because the PRs have fukked their way to a majority in hartford.

My impression of CT when I was unfortunate enough to have to work out of Bridgeport and New Haven for a half year was that it was the classic example of rich suburbs surrounding desperately poor urban areas. I know that is the norm for most of the Northeast, but in the rest of the Northeast, there is at least a smattering of young urban professionals. Not in the cities of CT. You guys have used topography and Interstate Highways to create the most economically segregated society I've ever laid eyes on.

[smackaholic]

Ct tried to pull that regionalism bullshit awhile back. They attempted to do the whole busing desegregation thingy that helped ruin the citys during the 70s. They seem to have backed away from it though, as it was political suicide, seeing as us vapid racist suburbanites, even the liberal ones ain't gonna put johnny on the school bus for a 15 mile ride to weaver high school. Weaver, btw, was already about 94% black when I was in school in the 70s. Today it's probably a bit lower, simply because the PRs have fukked their way to a majority in hartford.

My impression of CT when I was unfortunate enough to have to work out of Bridgeport and New Haven for a half year was that it was the classic example of rich suburbs surrounding desperately poor urban areas. I know that is the norm for most of the Northeast, but in the rest of the Northeast, there is at least a smattering of young urban professionals. Not in the cities of CT. You guys have used topography and Interstate Highways to create the most economically segregated society I've ever laid eyes on.

We have a smattering of yuppies in the city, but, it is a very small smattering. I think the biggest difference between CT and upstate NY is that we do have a substantial middle class/rich population, whereas you guys are pretty much missing the middle class/rich 'burbs.

[BSmack]

We have a smattering of yuppies in the city, but, it is a very small smattering. I think the biggest difference between CT and upstate NY is that we do have a substantial middle class/rich population, whereas you guys are pretty much missing the middle class/rich 'burbs.

You've obviously never been to Orchard Park, Pittsford, Mendon (former home of tax evader Tom Golisano), or a bunch of other rich upstate suburbs. The difference between Bridgeport and Rochester is that Rochester also has a few neighborhoods that rival the rich suburbs in quality of life and property prices.

Oh, and after looking at some property listings for Bridgeport, I can't believe how much people are asking for crappy houses that would go for 1/2 their Bridgeport asking prices in Monroe County.

[BSmack]

That is the future, unless Obama and his peeps decide to go full Stalin and relocate people against their will. Free people vote with their wallets and feet. When the neighborhood goes to shit, they will pick up and move to a nicer place. And there is nothing wrong with that, by the way. If you don't like it here, move. The urban poor could move somewhere nicer too, if they only took advantage of the free education and other "better-yourself" opportunities that are provided to them. But why should they do that when someone is going to hand them a check, free healthcare etc. for nothing. Socialism perpetuates poverty.

One thing I have noticed in my 43 years is that when an entity reduces the quality of their product in the face of adversity people stop using said product. One need only look at newspapers for an example. Ergo, the only way cities will ever attract people with the means to live anywhere they choose is to make their product better than other places. And doing so means that the best thing American cities could do would be to force the most desperately poor out of the city by condemning the shitholes they live in, leveling them and turning the land into parkland/greenbelts, selling it to developers willing to put up higher quality buildings or using the land for upgraded public facilities like light rail, busing or recreation complexes. Failure to do so will result in your future, regardless of who is in the White House or how much money goes to the poor in the form of welfare and entitlement programs.

[Left Seater]

First off, why the hell did the CLE cops and firemen not just have an address in the city and then live where ever the hell they wanted? It has gone on for years since most use your address to determine where you reside. Happens with kids and school all the time.


Second, taxes are killing inner city areas too. For example the City of Philadelphia had a 5% income tax for those who either worked or lived in the city. The company my wife worked for moved out of downtown Philly where they had offices for years because of the tax. Philly would not offer any break to them on the tax, so they negotiated with surrounding towns. Blue Bell came to the plate with their .25% income tax, but gave the company a 50 agreement that the tax would not be raised on them during that time.

They moved. Philly lost 3000 employees from downtown who spent money in their city. They also had at least 50 families move out of the city and into the northern neighbor of Blue Bell.

[indyfrisco]

Blue Bell.

Thank fucking GOD they now sell this in Indiana. I missed it for years.

[JMak]

Michigan permitted local jurisdictions to impose residency restrictions up until about 10 years ago. Then the State modified the law so that while local jurisidictions could not require employees to live within the jurisdiction's limits, the jurisdiction could require public safety employees to live within 20 miles of the border. Public safety being the key. 88, that's most likely why the local ordinance in Cleveland addressing employee residency permitted the Mayor to exept specific groups of employees from residency. The residency requirement for public safety employees would permit faster response times when off-duty police, fire, and public works employees could be ordered in. For example, it's likely that minimum staffing requires that a fire house always have personnel on-site. Hence, if a station's entire crew is responding to a single or multiple calls, then off-duty employees are called in to maintain minimum staffing. Having employees live 30 miles away kinda messes with that operating requirement. But the State decided that removing residency requirements would not hurt local public saftey response times and did away with them. Cleveland was certainly acting illegally by not following the law. However, this reasoning for requiring residency ain't unreasonable.

Residency also encourages having a greater stake in the local jurisdiction, a greater level of loyalty, and can result in improvied living conditions where cops and fireman live. Lots of neighborhoods surround downtown Detroit that were formerly filled by cops and firefighters. These neighborhoods had higher property values, less crime, and generally, just a better sordid clambake to live...for obvious reasons.

I think there's a legitimate interest for local jurisdictions in wanting residency requirements. But, given that our transportation system is far different than it was twenty-five years ago, that interest is not harmed by having employees reside outside of the City.

[Smackie Chan]

Would anyone here actually hire a person who is willing to live in Cleveland?

Talk about your red flags.

[smackaholic]

We have a smattering of yuppies in the city, but, it is a very small smattering. I think the biggest difference between CT and upstate NY is that we do have a substantial middle class/rich population, whereas you guys are pretty much missing the middle class/rich 'burbs.

You've obviously never been to Orchard Park, Pittsford, Mendon (former home of tax evader Tom Golisano), or a bunch of other rich upstate suburbs. The difference between Bridgeport and Rochester is that Rochester also has a few neighborhoods that rival the rich suburbs in quality of life and property prices.

Oh, and after looking at some property listings for Bridgeport, I can't believe how much people are asking for crappy houses that would go for 1/2 their Bridgeport asking prices in Monroe County.

Of course you have a few rich suburbs. My point is the entire state of CT is pretty much a rich suburb of a few really shitty cities.

I don't know a damn thing about brigdeport other than it is an even worse hole than hartford, but, I would guess that it, like hartford and new haven has a small corner somewhere with an upscale neighborhood.

What sucks is that these cities no longer have substantial middle class neighborhoods. I assume the same can be said for crapchester. All the middle class are out in the 'burbs or moved away, mostly to the south.

If CT continues on it's path of oppressive taxation and the pols don't grow a sack in their dealings with the gubmint employee unions, CT will look like upstate NY in another 10 years or so. Our gubmint employees have pretty much been using the UAW playbook and it will lead to the same end. Businesses won't just keep rolling over and paying. They will eventually move to SC or alabama or where ever.

[BSmack]

Of course you have a few rich suburbs. My point is the entire state of CT is pretty much a rich suburb of a few really shitty cities.

I don't know a damn thing about brigdeport other than it is an even worse hole than hartford, but, I would guess that it, like hartford and new haven has a small corner somewhere with an upscale neighborhood.

What sucks is that these cities no longer have substantial middle class neighborhoods. I assume the same can be said for crapchester. All the middle class are out in the 'burbs or moved away, mostly to the south.

If CT continues on it's path of oppressive taxation and the pols don't grow a sack in their dealings with the gubmint employee unions, CT will look like upstate NY in another 10 years or so. Our gubmint employees have pretty much been using the UAW playbook and it will lead to the same end. Businesses won't just keep rolling over and paying. They will eventually move to SC or alabama or where ever.

Rochester actually has a few areas that are predominantly middle class. What we call the South Wedge and the 19th Ward are two examples that immediately come to mind. Oh and the area south of Cobbs Hill and the Winton/Browncroft area also have strong middle class populations. And lest we forget the Park Avenue neighborhood. Oh I'll give you that Rochester is home to some shitty ass neighborhoods. But there are plenty of places in Rochester where I would take my wife to dine or attend a festival/concert.

Oh, and even in the worst areas, there are still middle class folk. I work with a few who, despite having a good job, would rather take their chances than move. Home is home, no matter how bad everyone else might think it is.

[smackaholic]

Of course you have a few rich suburbs. My point is the entire state of CT is pretty much a rich suburb of a few really shitty cities.

I don't know a damn thing about brigdeport other than it is an even worse hole than hartford, but, I would guess that it, like hartford and new haven has a small corner somewhere with an upscale neighborhood.

What sucks is that these cities no longer have substantial middle class neighborhoods. I assume the same can be said for crapchester. All the middle class are out in the 'burbs or moved away, mostly to the south.

If CT continues on it's path of oppressive taxation and the pols don't grow a sack in their dealings with the gubmint employee unions, CT will look like upstate NY in another 10 years or so. Our gubmint employees have pretty much been using the UAW playbook and it will lead to the same end. Businesses won't just keep rolling over and paying. They will eventually move to SC or alabama or where ever.

Rochester actually has a few areas that are predominantly middle class. What we call the South Wedge and the 19th Ward are two examples that immediately come to mind. Oh and the area south of Cobbs Hill and the Winton/Browncroft area also have strong middle class populations. And lest we forget the Park Avenue neighborhood. Oh I'll give you that Rochester is home to some shitty ass neighborhoods. But there are plenty of places in Rochester where I would take my wife to dine or attend a festival/concert.

Oh, and even in the worst areas, there are still middle class folk. I work with a few who, despite having a good job, would rather take their chances than move. Home is home, no matter how bad everyone else might think it is.

Sounds like it's a step or three up from b'port.

[PSUFAN]

The city of Pittsburgh takes the residency issue very seriously. Lots of folks have been fired for maintaining a city address, including a guy in my department who had been there 25+ years.

Pittsburgh has an occupation privilege tax. For years it was 10 bucks a year. A few years back they talked about making it $52 a year...and the suburbanites and their representatives acted like you grabbed them by the jaw and shit down their pieholes.

5% is far too much...but if you think $52 a year is a lot, then your priorities are fucked up. Are the streets supposed to sweep themselves? Is it your intention to contribute absolutely nothing to the upkeep of the city where you work every day?

I understand the tendency to be wary of how public dollars are spent, believe me - but there is such a thing as taking it too far.