Cool Web Site

Trampis · Post by **Trampis** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 3:24 am

From the uhh... most strange yearbook photos :D
http://www.oddee.com/item_96523.aspx

Trampis · Post by **Trampis** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 3:29 am

AHHHHHHH, Its Jess's sister?
http://www.oddee.com/item_96038.aspx

Tom In VA · Post by **Tom In VA** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 4:25 am

(!) http://englishrussia.com/?p=2340#more-2340 (!) Dirty pictures. NSFW. Real dirty Ukrainian chicks.

http://englishrussia.com/?p=2340#more-2340

.m2 · Post by **.m2** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 4:32 am

Tom In VA wrote:(!)http://englishrussia.com/?p=2340#more-2340(!) Dirty pictures. NSFW. Real dirty Ukrainian chicks.

What are you trying to say here, Tom ?

Tom In VA · Post by **Tom In VA** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 4:35 am

They're cute chicks from the Ukraine getting dirty.

Tom In VA · Post by **Tom In VA** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 4:39 am

Anna Pornikouva's great great great great grandmother ?

.m2 · Post by **.m2** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 4:41 am

Tom In VA wrote:They're cute chicks from the Ukraine getting dirty.

Tom.

Seriously.

I could go into your wife's room right now and find more deviance.

the truth

Tom In VA · Post by **Tom In VA** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 4:45 am

Dude, it was a joke. Dirty. Pics of chicks mud wrestling ... get it ....

Anyway, here's some from Russia's Miss Atomic. Chicks working in Nuke power plants.

http://englishrussia.com/?p=2318#more-2318

.m2 · Post by **.m2** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 4:49 am

Tom In VA wrote:Dude, it was a joke. Dirty. Pics of chicks mud wrestling ... get it ....

No.

Can you tell me why R-Jack would marry a horse ?

the truth

Tom In VA · Post by **Tom In VA** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 4:57 am

No, I didn't know he did.

But these Ukrainian "Amazons" are interesting.

http://englishrussia.com/?p=2241#more-2241

A French explorer Guillaume Herbaut has found a group of amazons hiding in the woods of Ukraine. They live together, dress like locals, study martial arts and their idol is Ukrainian lady minister Julia Timoshenko

Reminds me of that society of women in "World According to Garp".

peter dragon · Post by **peter dragon** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 9:35 am

http://englishrussia.com/?p=1940#more-1940

Van · Post by **Van** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 4:01 pm

peter dragon wrote:http://englishrussia.com/?p=1940#more-1940

Few thoughts here...

-There are going to be an awful lot of pregnant Russian hotties, nine months after the night of those pics.

-Pikkkle needs to move to Russia. Tastes great, less minorities.

-Russian girls know how to dress properly slutty. In fact, Muscovite proms seem to blow American proms out of the water...

Stan Fukkken Pickle · Post by **Stan Fukkken Pickle** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 4:11 pm

I have about 20 Russian friends that I met from Work. Some are Russian, some are from Latvia, Ukraine, Estonia etc..

Anyhoo, this is Diana...I know...Not a Russian name

And this is one of my other Russian friends...

Arina

I also have Sveta, Karina, Katerina, Masha and a bunch of other Russian friends......they only date White people...gotta love those Russian women!

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 5:24 pm

Pikkkle's current pilot has really, really lowered the bar.

indyfrisco · Post by **indyfrisco** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 5:31 pm

When I was in Poland recently, the first thing I noticed was how damn near all the women were hot. My second thought was how all those people who say Americans are fat are right. Yeah, some of us are in decent shape, but as a society, we got NOTHING on the Euros besides dentistry.

Van · Post by **Van** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 5:56 pm

Indy, when I was in Europe I was just embarrassed by the disgusting obesity of Americans. They were so easy to spot, and once I returned home and I really looked around it was like, holy crap, we really suck.

Everywhere I went in Europe the majority of the women dressed far better and they were in far better shape. Maybe it's just that they eat better and they walk or ride bicycles everywhere, but for whatever reason(s) they just make us look fat, provincial and stupid.

Stan Fukkken Pickle · Post by **Stan Fukkken Pickle** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 6:13 pm

PSUFAN wrote:Pikkkle's current pilot has really, really lowered the bar.

Same pilot...just reduced flying capabilities. My brain is fukkked from the BBBBBZZZZZZZZZ

Stan Fukkken Pickle · Post by **Stan Fukkken Pickle** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 6:30 pm

Speaking of Polish Girls....Have you guys seen this beauty creature named "Kasia" and her mounted dildo???

http://xhamster.com/movies/37475/kasia_ ... dildo.html

Mega Yum Yum.

KC Scott · Post by **KC Scott** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 6:37 pm

Speaking of .m2, pikkkle errr........ dildos

indyfrisco · Post by **indyfrisco** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 6:42 pm

Van wrote:Everywhere I went in Europe the majority of the women dressed far better and they were in far better shape. Maybe it's just that they eat better and they walk or ride bicycles everywhere, but for whatever reason(s) they just make us look fat, provincial and stupid.

Yeah, noticed that too. When I walked through the mall or even at the office I was there on business for, everyone dressed so nice. I mean, the girls working on the manufacturing line dressed nicer than some women in my white collar office back in the states.

Stan Fukkken Pickle · Post by **Stan Fukkken Pickle** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 6:46 pm

I remember when Van got back from that European Vacation. He suddenly became quite "Pickle-ish" and quite proud of his White European heritiage.

Van · Post by **Van** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 8:35 pm

I didn't "all of a sudden" become anything, except even more embarrassed by how fat and slovenly far too many Americans are, compared to their "equivalent" European counterparts.

As a general society, Americans are far too:

-Lazy

-Malnourished. (Not under fed, but malnourished. We must be the only country on the planet where many of our poorest people are also our fattest.)

-Morally insane. We celebrate violence, while abhorring the human body. We're puritanical about sex but we don't have the slightest problem with basically being dirtbags, in a thousand other ways.

-Our political system has completely failed, in terms of who we elect and how we elect.

-In terms of sheer hours on the clock, we spend the majority of our available time in brainless pursuit of the lowest common denominator. Whether it's the food we eat or the tv we watch or the music we listen to, we eschew quality and we hunger for garbage.

There's a feeling in certain European circles that Americans are simple and stupid, but very fortunate. We're very powerful, despite ourselves. We simply lucked into our resources, our isolated location and, ultimately, our power.

I tend to agree with that, with some basic caveats. We didn't luck into encouraging, developing and exploiting the brain power that made us the world leader in so many key areas. We earned those things, and those things have a lot to do with our preeminence.

I agree with the basic notion though that we simply don't deserve, or at least we don't properly appreciate, the prosperity we enjoy. We've simply become too fucking shallow, as a people. We're idol worshippers, and we long ago stopped worshipping the better idols among us.

Tom In VA · Post by **Tom In VA** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 8:42 pm

Bull fucking shit.

Seriously, read a bit of fucking history before you go spooging all over Europe, especially Eastern Europe.

My people left Europe for a reason. Sure, Americans, have some issues to address. So does the rest of the world. Europe, home of the "football hooligans".

Philly fan and Raiderfan are meek and well behaved compared to them.

As much "art" and "culture" and "progress" they've brought the rest of the world, they've also managed to corrupt and destroy reasonably peaceful tribal regions throughout the world.

If you need to make yourself feel better about yourself by kissing Euro ass, feel free. I don't buy it. They're human and fucked up as humans are.

I consider my fortunate to live in America as opposed to Europe. I'll take an American of any ethnic background over a Euro any day of the week.

Van · Post by **Van** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 8:56 pm

Tom, pipe down. I'm not talking history, I'm talking now.

Right now we are embarrassing. We're embarrassing politically, we're embarrassing religiously, we're embarrassing in terms of immigration and we're gawdawfully embarrassing culturally.

There's a good reason older people in this country think we're going to hell in a handbasket. They're right.

In today's culture, Britney Spears and Donald Trump have replaced Lou Gehrig and Charles Lindbergh.

"Super Sizing it" (food portions, personal vehicles, houses, etc) and obsessing over American Idol replaced proper diet, sacrifice and reading books.

Tom, jack off into the flag all you want but go take a walk through your local superkarket some time, and pay some fucking attention to what you see. Look at what's on the shelves, and look at the people buying all that garbage.

Then, do the same in any major western European city.

If you don't immediately notice the huge difference then you've just got your head in the sand.

Fat, lazy and shallow: That is how we're now perceived, and the perception is largely correct. If you think pointing out our flaws and being realistic about our weaknesses makes someone "unpatriotic" then you're just a simple moron.

Tom In VA · Post by **Tom In VA** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 9:03 pm

Thanks mvscal. Will do. Studying for several certification exams but I'll put that on my wish list.

Any interest in reading Mark Levin's new book ?

I think this guy is outstanding.

Van,

You're full of shit this regard. Perceptions, like opinions, are subjective. I've no need to go to tourist trap European pick pocket depots to understand OUR faults. But I'm not going to ignore their current ones either. I'll take Brittany Spears over Bjork or the "Spice Girls" any day of the fucking week. I'll take Robert Johnson, Muddy Waters, John Lee Hooker, Keb Mo, Jonny Winters, SRV, etc... etc... over bullshit knock off artists like Clapton, the Stones, etc.. etc...
I'll take Bo Diddley over the Beatles. I'll take Pink Floyd (English, I know) but better at the freaked out psychedelic "deep rock" than the Beatles were.

There's no shortage of cheesy Euro Pop melting over here either.

The weight and physical fitness issue, is accurate, but as you indicated more due to what's available and time as well. Euro's get off scott free when it comes to work, they also suffer for that.

Go kiss a high brow Euro's ass then, if it floats your boat, fine. Me ? I'm gonna go ahead and salute the American flag and then, get funky,

Stan Fukkken Pickle · Wed Apr 01, 2009 11:19 pm

mvscal wrote:
You might like this:

The Americans: The Colonial Experience by Daniel Boorstin. It's a little dry, but well worth the time. It's very interesting look at the foundation of America and the beginning of the American character. Starts out with chapters on the various different colonies and the unique features of each charter.

I might be interested in reading this also.

Not only is it entertaining to read every mvscal post, but it can also be educational. I am still eternally grateful for his educating me about Sir Charles Napier putting an end to the Hindu custom of burning their wives in a prye.

"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."

- General Charles Napier

Rack Western Civilization and Superiority.

By the way, I love to bring up this topic when I'm at the Casio playing poker against some dothead. The look on their face when I bring up Sati, their primitive, savage tradition is almost priceless.

Van · Post by **Van** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 12:39 am

Tom, the thing you need to wrap your head around is your own example is exactly what I'm taliking about...

It took the fucking British to make Robert Johnson and all the old American blues legends popular in America. It took The Stones, Jimmy Page and a few others to make Amercians even understand what in the fuck they'd been ignoring for fifty years.

The British!

To this day, if you're a serious American musician playing quality American music, a la John Scofield, Mike Stern, Allan Holdsworth, Wynton Marsalis, Robert Cray or even Yo Yo Ma, where do you have to go in order to sell concert tickets and CDs?

Europe, and Asia. Not Des Moines, or Cleveland.

Those guys can't get jack booked in America but let 'em loose on the Continent or in Japan and they're selling out good sized houses every night.

Wanna kick ass in America?

Best be a neanderthal rapper, a cartoon character/pre-packaged Country Sex Symbol or a teeny bopper spawn of Satan Disney creation.

You'd better plan on appealing to truly stupid teenagers.

Yeah, Europe spawned garbage like techo-pop, but that's just so they'd have something to fuck to during a 4:00am rave in Ibiza. Europe may've given us Bjork but they don't devote their entire national cultures to the very last minute-by-minute dissection of their latest techno pop dunces, the way we do here for people like Paris Hilton and Lindsey Lohan.

Culturally, we behave like a nation of sugar addled network tv children. Maybe that's also why we're so fucking fat.

We really ought to change our national anthem. If it's to really represent where we are right now as a culture it ought to be nothing more than a canned laugh track over the sound of a cash register ka-chinging...

Tom In VA · Post by **Tom In VA** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 1:44 am

Van,

Seems to me, if the likes of Wynton Marsalis ever became a mass marketted commodity like a "pop star" does - we'd be saying he sucks - or "sold out". In fact, he says that about his brother. But I can see you especially ....

Seeing Wynton Marsalis at a sold out LA Coliseum was horrible. blah blah blah blah I hope it doesn't rain, because I might drown

You're an elitist. A snob. Not that I mind, it's part of your charm and you wouldn't be you without it. Frankly, it makes for good reading material. But that's about it.

You'd bitch about the rednecks there ....

"Who knew so many filthy rednecks were into jazz"

Then cleverly segue into the hippies and the stench of patchouli wafting through the air causing not allowing you to fully enjoy the expensive brie and micro-brew you bought.

You'd find something to bitch about, that's for sure. Through it all the thing that would bother you the most is that somehow the mass market appeal that a Wynton Marsalis achieved to the level you're referring to would somehow rob you of that "exclusive" feeling. You use the fact they aren't pop stars to impugn American tastes, yet you'd hate it if they were pop stars.

I have no problem taking an honest account of our inventory. But you'll have excuse me if I don't 100% buy into your "Ugly American" line of bullshit.

Keep in mind "American Idol" was a British idea, "Pop Idol". I like Monty Python a lot but Saturday Night Live in it's hey day was better. Further, check your history on what Europe thought was "beauty" back during the Baroque period. Okay, now, they like the heroine chic look of some waif, that'll change. "Rubenesque" didn't start in America, pal.

I live in a country filled with some of the best from all across this world, brought together to make something extremely special. Quite frankly the band that I thought brought ALL the aspects of American musical culture together the best was the Grateful Dead. They were pure, purely American - and I love their music more than anyone elses. I love a lot of music, but the Dead, "hit the note" in my opinion - and they're American.

So, the argument about no McJazz played by Wynton Marsalis doesn't fly. Plenty of people appreciate his purity, his skill, his prowess it's his snobbish attitude that puts most people off. Besides, the way he ran he Lincoln Jazz Center; if he was white, he'd be called a racist.

:D

Stan Fukkken Pickle · Post by **Stan Fukkken Pickle** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 2:18 am

Stan Fukkken Pickle wrote:Speaking of Polish Girls....Have you guys seen this beauty creature named "Kasia" and her mounted dildo???

http://xhamster.com/movies/37475/kasia_ ... dildo.html

Mega Yum Yum.

Kasia, bitches. KASIA!

Van · Post by **Van** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 2:34 am

Tom In VA wrote:Van,

Seems to me, if the likes of Wynton Marsalis ever became a mass marketted commodity like a "pop star" does - we'd be saying he sucks - or "sold out". In fact, he says that about his brother. But I can see you especially ....

Again, you're completely missing the point.

Why does it have to be a "sell out" for the good shit to be popular?

Why? Because in this country the good shit isn't popular! In this country you're expected to play lowest common denominator garbage, if you're to be truly popular.

Movies, tv, food, political debate, music, auto racing, WWE, religious thinking, you name it: Lowest common denominator crap is always the most popular.

Is the light coming on yet?

Seeing Wynton Marsalis at a sold out LA Coliseum was horrible. blah blah blah blah I hope it doesn't rain, because I might drown

Sell it somewhere else. I literally was at the Coliseum, in the rain, to see...who?

The Stones, and Guns & Roses. Steel Wheels Tour.

My single favorite musician is SRV.

Try again, with the "elitist" cop out. That dog ain't gonna hunt, Tom.

Also, the fact that you consider it "elitist" is exactly the problem. In your eyes it's a put down to say to someone, "Oh, you prefer quality. What a douche."

You're like the blacks who shit on their friends and call 'em Uncle Toms for trying to make something of themselves, 'cause misery loves company.

You're an elitist. A snob. Not that I mind, it's part of your charm and you wouldn't be you without it. Frankly, it makes for good reading material. But that's about it.

See above. You haven't a clue.

You'd bitch about the rednecks there....

I'd bitch about rednecks anywhere. They're cartoon characters who embarrass us as a nation. They're the white equivalents of ghetto culture blacks. If you don't bitch about 'em, what's that say about you?

"Who knew so many filthy rednecks were into jazz"

The fact that they aren't and that to be so would be construed as something negative confirms their wholly justified lowly reputation.

Let's all keep it simple and stupid, that way none of us stick out. Let's put pictures of our food on our menus and by god let's make goddamn sure we don't support world class American music.

Brilliant credo, 'Necks.

Then cleverly segue into the hippies and the stench of patchouli wafting through the air causing not allowing you to fully enjoy the expensive brie and micro-brew you bought.

Yeah, I'm all about the brie and micro-brews. Me, the guy who's never tried alcohol.

Is this just your generic canned rant, that you pull out any time someone bags on NASCAR?

You'd find something to bitch about, that's for sure.

Mainly, that it's come to this: Even guys like you act as apologists for the worst of who we are.

Through it all the thing that would bother you the most is that somehow the mass market appeal that a Wynton Marsalis achieved to the level you're referring to would somehow rob you of that "exclusive" feeling. You use the fact they aren't pop stars to impugn American tastes, yet you'd hate it if they were pop stars.

Right, like I hate that Steve Vai and SRV are/were pop stars?

You're so off base it's ridicluous.

I'm just sick of being hounded by garbage, everywhere I turn in this society. If quality were what was popular and garbage was all TROTS'd, the way it should be, I'd be very happy.

You're dead wrong, and the reason is you don't want to admit we as a culture now stand for garbage. Instead, you feel better about yourself by laughably using the "elitist" cop out on someone who wants and expects better from us.

I have no problem taking an honest account of our inventory. But you'll have excuse me if I don't 100% buy into your "Ugly American" line of bullshit.

320lb slobs with the vocabulary of a fourth grader, along with similar interests...are ugly Americans. If you don't see it that way then yes, you're excused.

Keep in mind "American Idol" was a British idea, "Pop Idol". I like Monty Python a lot but Saturday Night Live in it's hey day was better. Further, check your history on what Europe thought was "beauty" back during the Baroque period. Okay, now, they like the heroine chic look of some waif, that'll change. "Rubenesque" didn't start in America, pal.

NOW, Tom, I'm talking now. Right now we're a disgustingly fat and embarrassing people, and it's made even more painfully evident simply by spending ten minutes in modern Europe.

I live in a country filled with some of the best from all across this world, brought together to make something extremely special. Quite frankly the band that I thought brought ALL the aspects of American musical culture together the best was the Grateful Dead. They were pure, purely American - and I love their music more than anyone elses. I love a lot of music, but the Dead, "hit the note" in my opinion - and they're American.

Great. The Dead were a great band.

Now, consider the implications of the fact that The Dead wouldn't get a sniff on American Idol, nor would they receive any radio play.

Usher sure would though. So would Rihanna, and that fat blonde country singer chick who won American Idol.

If you don't see something very wrong there, you're hopeless.

"Elitism."

Tom In VA · Post by **Tom In VA** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 2:47 am

Also, the fact that you consider it "elitist" is exactly the problem. In your eyes it's a put down to say to someone, "Oh, you prefer quality. What a douche."

Que ? Nobody is a douche for preferring quality. I never said that. If I implied it, I'm sorry. Lowest common denominator marketting is nothing new and certainly wasn't invented in America.

I'll counter my presumption about your taste in micro-brew with ....... I'm not a NASCAR fan.

I'm not being an "apologist" about what's wrong with us. I'm just saying that the inference I'm drawing from your comments is that "There's nothing wrong with Europe, therefore we suck".

You're comparing our worst to their best. That's all. I find that, sad.

We live in a wonderful country.

Van · Post by **Van** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 5:17 am

NASCAR is wildly popular, despite being nothing more than glorified moonshine running, in endless circles.

That's who we are, as a culture.

I certainly never even began to imply that Europe is perfect. C'mon, Tom, that's just ridiculous.

I said we're disgustingly fat, and one trip to Europe will point it out to you, in case you weren't convinced already.

indyfrisco · Post by **indyfrisco** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 12:29 pm

Tom In VA wrote:Bull fucking shit.

Seriously, read a bit of fucking history before you go spooging all over Europe, especially Eastern Europe.

My people left Europe for a reason. Sure, Americans, have some issues to address. So does the rest of the world. Europe, home of the "football hooligans". Philly fan and Raiderfan are meek and well behaved compared to them.

As much "art" and "culture" and "progress" they've brought the rest of the world, they've also managed to corrupt and destroy reasonably peaceful tribal regions throughout the world.

If you need to make yourself feel better about yourself by kissing Euro ass, feel free. I don't buy it. They're human and fucked up as humans are.

I consider my fortunate to live in America as opposed to Europe. I'll take an American of any ethnic background over a Euro any day of the week.

Dude, I just said in Poland, I noticed that everyone dressed nice, most were thin and fit and the women were much hotter than most of what I see around me in the states. And it is a fact, we are much fatter on average. I'm not going to go as far as Van in the other things he said simply because I didn't spend that much time there (1 week) and have no basis to make such claims.

indyfrisco · Post by **indyfrisco** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 12:33 pm

Tom In VA wrote:I'll take Brittany Spears over Bjork or the "Spice Girls" any day of the fucking week. I'll take Robert Johnson, Muddy Waters, John Lee Hooker, Keb Mo, Jonny Winters, SRV, etc... etc... over bullshit knock off artists like Clapton, the Stones, etc.. etc...
I'll take Bo Diddley over the Beatles. I'll take Pink Floyd (English, I know) but better at the freaked out psychedelic "deep rock" than the Beatles were.

What will you take MGMT over?

indyfrisco · Post by **indyfrisco** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 12:56 pm

Van,

Watch a movie called Idiocracy. It will be hard to do as it is about America decades into the future and pretty much shows us as the "lowest common denominator", but it basically sums up the point you are trying to make.

There's a TV Show in the movie that is supposed to be the #1 show on tv or something. It is called "Ow My Balls!" where the entire show is centered around different ways to slam a man's nuts.

Like I said, it is hard to watch.

Screw_Michigan · Post by **Screw_Michigan** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 1:39 pm

IndyFrisco wrote:
Tom In VA wrote:I'll take Brittany Spears over Bjork or the "Spice Girls" any day of the fucking week. I'll take Robert Johnson, Muddy Waters, John Lee Hooker, Keb Mo, Jonny Winters, SRV, etc... etc... over bullshit knock off artists like Clapton, the Stones, etc.. etc...
I'll take Bo Diddley over the Beatles. I'll take Pink Floyd (English, I know) but better at the freaked out psychedelic "deep rock" than the Beatles were.
What will you take MGMT over?

Korn

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 3:08 pm

He might be a vapid fuckstick...only time and TVO will tell.

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 3:13 pm

TVO can't hop high enough to see. Someone throw him a phonebook to stand on.

Van · Post by **Van** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 4:09 pm

I try not to laugh at the "TVO is short" jokes but I couldn't help it, with that last one.

The image of TVO hopping to see what's on the table made me laugh.

Fuckin' Dave...

Stan Fukkken Pickle · Post by **Stan Fukkken Pickle** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 4:34 pm

Sudden Sam wrote:No idea where this thread went after I saw this:

I am in love with Arina.

Sammy,

If you like her, come to Madison! All the Russian girls I know are HOT as hell. They all take incredible care of their bodies and they dress smoking hot. When the weather gets nice you can spot the European girls a mile away on State St. They are the ones walking down the street with high heels, short miniskirts and perfectly shaped legs. It's quite a contrast from the sloppily dressed American College kids.

And Van, what happened to you lately that you feel the need to turn every thread into a 50 page marathon debate?