now i feel sick: a message from Haiti

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Risa
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now i feel sick: a message from Haiti

Post by Risa »

http://www.dailykos.com/hotlist/add/200 ... laystory//

Notes on Haiti - yeah, I was there
by out grrl [Subscribe]

Mon Apr 10, 2006 at 05:26:20 PM MST
Yeah, so I know that Haiti is not currently considered a vacation destination, but I kind of went there by accident. I now truly understand what poverty is. And I will never be able to donate blood again. More below the fold.

out grrl's diary :: ::
In the spirit of my occasional "Notes on NOLA" diaries, here is something completely different. For the uninitiated, a group of friends and I compile field notes when we go someplace interesting. Here are my notes from my trip to Haiti last week.

First off, I went to Haiti kind of on accident. We were in the Dominican Republic doing our yearly beach vacation as per agreement with the much_nicer_and_better_looking grrl. We were doing all the things young dykes in love do on Caribbean vacations when we came upon an excursion folder in the lobby. We flipped through and found one that said "Visit Haitian Village". It said there would be a voodoo demonstration and a cock fight. Now, I under stand the monstrosity of cock fighting, but my curiosity was peaked. It isn't every day you get to see a voodoo demonstration in Haiti. So we signed up. Here are some observations (and a few facts I learned from our guide) in no particular order.

Haiti makes for strange bus fellows - It is a strange mix of folks that make the trip to Haiti. We were with a English/Dutch speaking group. Our guide, George, would say everything in English. Then he would say everything in Dutch. There was also a German group and a French group. The DR has mostly European tourists so it isn't surprising. We had a group of Canadians, a widower from New Zealand, a couple from rural West Virginia that kept spouting off about how Bush should be impeached, a very amorous Dutch couple, two Dutch teenagers and an African American couple from New Jersey. I tell you this mainly to put the experience in a bit more context. The couple from WV was older - the wife walked with a cane. The NJ couple mentioned grandkids.

Rainforests have deserts underneath them - The first thing you really notice as you get closer to the border is that the vegetation starts to disappear. It goes from the lush Dominican rain forests to drier grasses and finally to nothing. Once you cross the border, it disappears completely. There is nothing but dust and rocks. George told us that the Haitians have cut down all of the trees to make charcoal - one of the only remaining industries on the island. They cut down all of them except the fruit trees and the fruit trees have trouble surviving with all of the surrounding vegetation gone. We came across the border through the mountains. You could see a distinct line along the border through the mountain range. Green in the DR. Brown in Haiti. If the current rates of deforestion are not stopped, Haiti will be a desert in 50 years.

Borders are a relative concept - The border we crossed was basically a truck in the middle of the road and some guys with machine guns. If you fly into Haiti from the DR, your passport is stamped and they charge you $40 entry and exit fees (plus you have to pay the $10 DR entry and exit fees). If you take one of the local tours, they just let you drive across the border. On each side of the border are single room shacks used as military barracks. One thing common to both countries - the barracks look like tough living. The guards barely flinched when we crossed.

Haiti is not for the masses - I am still not exactly sure what we were thinking. I was honestly picturing a little hall where we would see some voodoo demonstrations dumbed down for tourist consumption and some local crafts. The flyer for the trip mentioned visiting a market. Now, we are not dingbat travellers. I spent a fair chunk of my youth with a backpack bouncing around Europe. I have been to the DR before and I grew up close enough to the Mexican border towns to have experienced some real poverty. We have been to Japan a couple of times and are planning a trip to China later this year. We are not travel newbies. But nothing could have ever prepared us for what we saw a couple of miles across the border. When we came over the hill and saw the village, my first words were "You have got to be fucking kidding".

Everyone comes for Market Day - The market was completely packed. Coming over the hill, you could see a mass of people and animals. Cows and goats. Women with baskets on their heads. Men standing in the background. We stopped in the middle of the mass of people. They drove us to the center of the crowd and opened the doors. George told us to stay close together. I stuck my hand in my pocket and gripped my money. We pushed forward through the crowd. It was dusty and it smelled like goats and unwashed masses. We were going to see what a traditional village house looked like. The village was tiny, but there were people everywhere. Everyone asking you for money. I noticed a truck handing out huge sacks of rice. George told me later that it was a USAid truck. They drop off rice once a month for all pregnant women and all children six and under. Everyone else is SOL.

No one wants your candy - As we broke through the crowd, we were immediately surrounded by children. All of them wanted to hold our hands. They were everywhere and they all looked younder than 10. I have no idea where the older kids were. Writing this I am trying to remember if I saw a single teenager. Some of the pregnant women looked like teenagers, but I didn't see any boys that age. We were told not to give the children anything because they would fight over it. The mnabl grrl had some peppermints she wanted to give them. I told her not too because there weren't enough for all of the children. In the DR, we solved that problem by giving them to an adult to hand out later. We went to a one room - I hesitate to even call it a shack. It was a hovel. A very old woman was inside. The mnabl grrl gave her the candy to give to the children. The woman snatched the bag and hid it quickly. She said "No" thrust out her hand and said "money". The mnablg grrl was shaken. There was no desire for candy here. They didn't need our candy. They were starving. I am going to assume that the woman sold the candy for food. I have managed to convince myself that it will be like that episode of MASH where Winchester gives the chocolates to the orphanage.

Aid is not for everyone - One thing we saw in the village was an orphanage. The group that gives the tours uses some of the money to fund the orphanage. But it isn't enough money to take in all of the orphans in the village. So half of the village orphans wear a clean shirt and get a bowl of rice every day. The other half of the orphans in the village starve in the village streets. I didn't ask how the lucky ones are chosen. The orphanage is not large enough for a dormitory so both sets of orphans are forced to sleep outside. While we were there, the orphans in the orphanage sang a song and hammed it up for the group. The unlucky ones stood outside the door and looked in longingly. There are things you see in life that you never forget. That would be one of them.

You really shouldn't give them candy - I went back to the bus to retreat for a while. The NJ and WV couples and Dutch teenagers were there, too. The guys that I assume were working a security detail for us had bags with clothes and hats in them. One of them opened the bus doors and tossed a couple of hats into the mass of children. They immediately started to fight over them. I don't know if the guys did it on purpose of if they had good intentions, but it got really bad really fast. They were fist fighting in the dirt over a hat. One of them broke away and the others gave chase. They caught him and they fought some more. Running, chasing and fighting until we couldn't see them in the dust. It was about this point that I took my trusty flask out of my backpack and started drinking. The mnabl grrl got on the bus soon after and joined me.

The volunteers are exhausted - We went into the village hospital. There is one room where people wait and there is one room where people are treated. There was no seating in the waiting room. There was only a sheet in the doorway to the examination room. There was no doctor. A Dominican nurse volunteered three days a week and she was exhausted. She was not getting any help. There was some kind of trouble with her husband and she had three kids to feed. It was insane. I looked at the "medine chest" and there was nothing more than some vitamins, cotton balls and alcohol. George told us that about 60% of the people in the village are HIV positive and rape and incest are rampant. Once you visit Haiti, you are stricken from the roles of folks eligible to give blood. Forever.

We saw a voodoo demonstration. We saw a cock fight. Not much to report.

That is what we saw. I will never forget it for as long as I live. Seriously. There was also a school. One room. One chalkboard. Not enough room for everyone. I kept wondering how on earth those people could be there. The ground could not be cultivated. There was no industry of any kind. They were just there. In mud shanties on the side of hill. No electricity. Before George started helping them, they had to walk 3 KM each way for water. Unimaginagle. I kept expecting Sally Struthers to pop out of a shanty. I though I was emtionally exhausted after Katrina. I really did. I didn't think that anything could impact me on such a raw emotional level after seeing the city I love destroyed. If anything, the trip made me aware that I have a bit left.

And the kicker is that we are partly responsible. We were the ones propping up one corrupt government after another. That place was the consequence of our inaction. I still believe - I have always believed that if everyone would do one small thing, we could make a huge impact in the world. Seeing people in that situation made me realize that perhaps we need to do a bit more than a little. A lot of neglect made that place and it is going to take a lot of work to make it even human. What do people do when you force them to live like animals? They live like animals. We had the same destructive policies all through Latin America. Now we are doing it in Iraq. I tell you, no photographs, no news stories, no Sally Struthers special can ever prepare you for seeing it. For smelling it. For being dead thick in the middle of the abject misery of it. I wish I had one of my usual wise ass closing comments but I don't. There is nothing more I can really say.
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Post by M2 »

Annie, get a job.

Hell, go out to a bar and make some friends.

You're giving the "black women" that work two jobs a day... a bad name.

Seriously.


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Post by TenTallBen »

m2 wrote:Hell, go out to a bar and make some friends.
Good luck with THAT shit.
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Post by jtr »

Annie it's 10pm on the west coast. This is a male dominated board for conversations about sports and smack about everything else that we find relevant.

About this time at night we are not concerned about any issue dealing with Haiti unless it involved Haiti native baseball players or Miss Haiti and her six best girlfriends found flashing on thier spring breaks.

Actually for the most part Haiti can sink into the Bermuda Triangle for all I care.

The guys here are more interested in the latest Rush album, fast food item, Barry Bonds quote, wondering how hot shoalize's cousin is, piling on m2, and being completely in the CZ no matter what.

Unless you discuss something in these terms please for the love of God, or whatever type of Moses you pray to please shut the hell up
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Post by Screw_Michigan »

m2 wrote:Annie, get a job.

Hell, go out to a bar and make some friends.

You're giving the "black women" that work two jobs a day... a bad name.

bwahahah! talk abou fucking irony!!!!!!!!!!!!! windchime faggot talking about a bitch giving hardworking black women a bad name. wow. in fucking credible.

rack you m-jew. your role on this board and in life is priceless from your perspective, worthless from everyone elses. fuck you.
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Post by M2 »

Screw_Michigan wrote:
m2 wrote:Annie, get a job.

Hell, go out to a bar and make some friends.

You're giving the "black women" that work two jobs a day... a bad name.

bwahahah! talk abou fucking irony!!!!!!!!!!!!! windchime faggot talking about a bitch giving hardworking black women a bad name. wow. in fucking credible.

rack you m-jew. your role on this board and in life is priceless from your perspective, worthless from everyone elses. fuck you.
Why do you hate people that are creative, and have buisness in four states?

Or, do you see going to work for people "like me" and sitting in a cubicle the epitome of success ?

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Post by Van »

That place was the consequence of our inaction.
But of course. The U.S. must be responsible, even though the other half of the island is...well, a much prettier shithole.

Everyone hates the U.S. but whenever some nation is absolutely useless on their own everyone immediately assumes the U.S. should step in and make everything all better...

Not Canada. Not Mexico. Not Brazil, or even Cuba.

Certainly not France, Japan, Germany, India or, god forbid, either China or Russia. Nope.

The U.S.A.

Nice.

:meds:
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Post by Risa »

In Haiti's case, Van, yes it is.

Who supported Papa Doc and Baby Doc? who installed them in the first place?

What happened to Aristide when he was no longer needed by the US?

Who crippled Haiti when it became the very first nation AFTER the United States, in the Western Hemisphere, to fight for and gain it's independence from its mother country?

I don't know what Haiti did to incur the wrath of America, and American hatred, and American desire to see it remains crushed.... from the birth of it's soul, midwifed by the great and legendary Toussaint L'Ouverture, until now.

It's only a little island, a tiny island... but even the Dominican Republic isn't as bad as Haiti.. is it?

Why has the US failed in its nation building within Haiti?
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Post by jtr »

Annie today NASA announced they are spending about $200 million dollars to crash a probe into the moon to see if they can find ice.

What answers can we find in Haiti?
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Post by M2 »

Way to go... Van :meds:

She was waiting for the first sucker to respond to her bullshit!

Good job!


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Post by jtr »

Why do you want us to interfere with them Annie? I mean if it is to stop things like this Image forget about it. These things are not seen as disrespectful they are just the way of the culture. It really shouldnt be our business to go in and force/train them one way or the other.
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Post by Taint »

Here's an idea. Instead of trying to change the world via an internet sports related message board, try getting off your fat usless fucking ass and doing something.
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Post by Risa »

Taint wrote:Here's an idea. Instead of trying to change the world via an internet sports related message board, try getting off your fat usless fucking ass and doing something.
You're quite right, Taint.


Who should I start with?
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Post by M2 »

Risa wrote:
Taint wrote:Here's an idea. Instead of trying to change the world via an internet sports related message board, try getting off your fat usless fucking ass and doing something.
You're quite right, Taint.


Who should I start with?

You?

Was this a trick question?



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Post by Mike Backer »

The black ignorant racist fat fuck wrote:You're quite right, Taint.
Who should I start with?

Start by losing half your body weight, then mix in an edumacation.
Last edited by Mike Backer on Tue Apr 11, 2006 7:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Filthy McNastie »

I hate to sounc "cold" about the little Haiti children.

But...there are people right here in the good ol' US of A that have got it just as bad.

Living in a fucking box and going to bed with an empty stomach sucks...no matter what the view is outside of that box.

L8.
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Post by Van »

m2 wrote:Way to go... Van :meds:

She was waiting for the first sucker to respond to her bullshit!

Good job!


m2
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Post by Terry in Crapchester »

Jsc810 wrote:
Filthy McNastie wrote:I hate to sounc "cold" about the little Haiti children.

But...there are people right here in the good ol' US of A that have got it just as bad.
Yup.
Agreed. Which is why I was never real keen on the argument that "we have to liberate the Iraqis" as justification for the Iraq War.

And before somebody twists what I just said way out of context, let me say that I don't mean that Americans need to be liberated from their government first. Just saying that there were, and are, plenty of people here who have it just as bad here as do those in Iraq. And my natural sympathies are to help those who are in the USA first.
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Post by Tom In VA »

Terry in Crapchester wrote:
Jsc810 wrote:
Filthy McNastie wrote:I hate to sounc "cold" about the little Haiti children.

But...there are people right here in the good ol' US of A that have got it just as bad.
Yup.
Agreed. Which is why I was never real keen on the argument that "we have to liberate the Iraqis" as justification for the Iraq War.

And before somebody twists what I just said way out of context, let me say that I don't mean that Americans need to be liberated from their government first. Just saying that there were, and are, plenty of people here who have it just as bad here as do those in Iraq. And my natural sympathies are to help those who are in the USA first.

You're really onto something here. Keep following that trail.
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Post by Terry in Crapchester »

Tom In VA wrote:You're really onto something here. Keep following that trail.
Tom, not quite sure what the point of your post was. But I can assure you that what I posted before that was hardly a departure for me. In fact, I've always said that America should take care of its own before it takes care of anyone else.

Now, I realize that people may disagree on whether we do take care of our own, or for that matter, whether we are capable of taking care of our own. But if the answer to those questions is negative, then we have no business even trying to take care of anyone else.

Jmho, and I'm sure there are some on this board who disagree with that.
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Post by 4 king guy »

Before judging, you must understand the history of HAITI...

The Spaniards used the island of Hispaniola (of which Haiti is the western part and the Dominican Republic the eastern) as a launching point from which to explore the rest of the Western Hemisphere. French buccaneers later used the western third of the island as a point from which to harass English and Spanish ships. In 1697, Spain ceded the western third of Hispaniola to France. As piracy was gradually suppressed, some French adventurers became planters, making Saint Domingue, as the French portion of the island was known, the "pearl of the Antilles"--one of the richest colonies in the 18th century French empire.

During this period, African slaves were brought to work on sugarcane and coffee plantations. In 1791, the slave population revolted--led by Toussaint L'Ouverture, Jean Jacques Dessalines, and Henri Christophe--and gained control of the northern part of the French colony, waging a war of attrition against the French.

By January 1804, local forces defeated an army sent by Napoleon Bonaparte, established independence from France, and renamed the area Haiti. The impending defeat of the French in Haiti is widely credited with contributing to Napoleon's decision to sell the Louisiana territory to the United States in 1803. Haiti is the world's oldest black republic and the second-oldest republic in the Western Hemisphere, after the United States. Although Haiti actively assisted the independence movements of many Latin American countries, the independent nation of former slaves was excluded from the hemisphere's first regional meeting of independent nations, in Panama in 1826, and did not receive U.S. diplomatic recognition until 1862.

Two separate regimes--north and south--emerged after independence but were unified in 1820. Two years later, Haiti occupied Santo Domingo, the eastern, Spanish-speaking part of Hispaniola. In 1844, however, Santo Domingo broke away from Haiti and became the Dominican Republic. With 22 changes of government from 1843 to 1915, Haiti experienced numerous periods of intense political and economic disorder, prompting the United States military intervention of 1915. Following a 19-year occupation, U.S. military forces were withdrawn in 1934, and Haiti regained sovereign rule.

From February 7, 1986--when the 29-year dictatorship of the Duvalier family ended--until 1991, Haiti was ruled by a series of provisional governments. In March 1987, a constitution was ratified that provides for an elected, bicameral parliament; an elected president that serves as head of state; and a prime minister, cabinet, ministers, and supreme court appointed by the president with parliament's consent. The Haitian Constitution also provides for political decentralization through the election of mayors and administrative bodies responsible for local government.

1991-1994 – An Interrupted Transition

In December 1990, Jean-Bertrand Aristide, a charismatic Roman Catholic priest, won 67% of the vote in a presidential election that international observers deemed largely free and fair. Aristide took office on February 7, 1991, but was overthrown that September in a violent coup led by dissatisfied elements of the army and supported by many of the country's economic elite. Following the coup, Aristide began a 3-year exile in the U.S. Several thousand Haitians may have been killed during the de facto military rule. The coup contributed to a large-scale exodus of Haitians by boat. The U.S. Coast Guard rescued a total of 41,342 Haitians at sea during 1991 and 1992, more than the number of rescued boat people from the previous 10 years combined.

From October 1991 to September 1994 an unconstitutional military de facto regime governed Haiti. Various OAS and UN initiatives to end the political crisis through the peaceful restoration of the constitutionally elected government, including the Governor’s Island Agreement of July 1993, failed. When the military refused to uphold its end of the agreements, the de facto authorities refused to allow a return to constitutional government, even though the economy was collapsing and the country's infrastructure deteriorated from neglect.

1994 – International Intervention

On July 31, 1994, as repression mounted in Haiti and a UN-OAS civilian human rights monitoring mission (MICIVIH) was expelled from the country, the UN Security Council adopted Resolution 940. UNSC Resolution 940 authorized member states to use all necessary means to facilitate the departure of Haiti's military leadership and to restore Haiti's constitutionally elected government to power.

In the weeks that followed, the United States took the lead in forming a multinational force (MFN) to carry out the UN's mandate by means of a military intervention. In mid-September, with U.S. troops prepared to enter Haiti by force, President Clinton dispatched a negotiating team led by former President Jimmy Carter to persuade the de facto authorities to step aside and allow for the return of constitutional rule. With intervening troops already airborne, Gen. Raoul Cedras and other top leaders agreed to accept the intervention of the MNF. On September 19, 1994, the first contingents of what became a 21,000-member international force touched down in Haiti to oversee the end of military rule and the restoration of the constitutional government. By early October, the three de facto leaders--Cedras, Gen. Philippe Biamby, and Police Chief Lt. Col. Michel Francois -and their families had departed Haiti. President Aristide and other elected officials in exile returned on October 15.

Under the watchful eyes of international peacekeepers, restored Haitian authorities organized nationwide local and parliamentary elections in June 1995. A pro-Aristide, multi-party coalition called the Lavalas Political Organization (OPL) swept into power at all levels. With his term ending in February 1996 and barred by the constitution from succeeding himself, President Aristide agreed to step aside and support a presidential election in December 1995. Rene Preval, a prominent Aristide political ally, who had been Aristide's Prime Minister in 1991, took 88% of the vote, and was sworn in to a 5-year term on February 7, 1996, during what was Haiti's first-ever transition between two democratically elected presidents.

Political Gridlock

In late 1996, former President Aristide broke from the OPL and created a new political party, the Lavalas Family (FL). The OPL, holding the majority of the Parliament, renamed itself the Struggling People's Organization, maintaining the OPL acronym. Elections in April 1997 for the renewal of one-third of the Senate and creation of commune-level assemblies and town delegations provided the first opportunity for the former political allies to compete for elected office. Although preliminary results indicated victories for FL candidates in most races, the elections, which drew only about 5% of registered voters, were plagued with allegations of fraud and not certified by most international observers as free and fair. Partisan rancor from the election dispute led to deep divisions within Parliament and between the legislative and executive branches, resulting in almost total governmental gridlock. In June 1997, Prime Minister Rosny Smarth resigned. Two successors proposed by President Preval were rejected by the legislature. Eventually, in December 1998, Jacques Edouard Alexis was confirmed as Prime Minister.

During this gridlock period, the government was unable to organize the local and parliamentary elections due in late 1998. In early January 1999, President Preval dismissed legislators whose terms had expired--the entire Chamber of Deputies and all but nine members of the Senate--and converted local elected officials into state employees. The President and Prime Minister then ruled by decree, establishing a cabinet composed almost entirely of FL partisans. Under pressure from a new political coalition called the Democratic Consultation Group (ESPACE), the government allocated three seats of the nine-member Provisional Electoral Council (CEP) to opposition groups and mandated the CEP to organize the overdue elections for the end of 1999. Following several delays, the first round of elections for local councils--ASEC and CASEC, municipal governments, town delegates, the Chamber of Deputies, and two-thirds of the Senate took place on May 21, 2000. The election drew the participation of a multitude of candidates from a wide array of political parties and a voter turnout of more than 60%.

The Electoral Crisis

Controversy mired the good start, however, when the CEP used a flawed methodology to determine the winners of the Senate races, thus avoiding run-off elections for eight seats and giving the FL a virtual sweep in the first round. The flawed vote count, combined with the CEP’s failure to investigate alleged irregularities and fraud, undercut the credibility of that body. The CEP President fled Haiti and two members eventually resigned rather than accede to government pressure to release the erroneous results. Nonetheless, on August 28, 2000, Haiti's new Parliament, including the contested Senators accorded victory under the flawed vote count, was convened.

Through a number of diplomatic missions by the OAS, the Caribbean Community (CARICOM), and the United States, the international community had sought to delay Parliament's seating until the electoral problems could be rectified. When these efforts were rebuffed, Haiti's main bilateral donors announced the end of "business as usual." They moved to re-channel their assistance away from the government and announced they would not support or send observers to the November elections. Concurrently, most opposition parties regrouped in an alliance that became the Democratic Convergence. The Convergence asserted that the May elections were so fraudulent that they should be annulled and held again under a new CEP. Elections for President and nine Senators took place on November 26, 2000. All major opposition parties boycotted these elections in which voter participation was estimated at 5%. Jean-Bertrand Aristide emerged as the easy victor of these controversial elections, and the candidates of his FL party swept all contested Senate seats. On February 6, 2001, the Democratic Convergence named respected lawyer and human rights activist Gerard Gourgue as provisional president of their "alternative government." Gourgue called the act "symbolic," designed to protest flawed elections. On February 7, 2001, Jean-Bertrand Aristide was inaugurated as President. Notwithstanding the previous year's electoral controversy, the inauguration marked the first time in the country's history that a full-term president peacefully transferred power to an incoming president.

It did not, however, put an end to the political stalemate. OAS-mediated negotiations began in April 2001 to find a resolution, focusing on the on possible makeup of a new electoral council, a timetable for new elections, security for political parties, and other confidence-building measures. These negotiations made some progress, but were suspended in mid-July without a final agreement. On July 28, 2001, unknown gunmen attacked police facilities in Port-au-Prince and the provinces. A subsequent government crackdown on opposition party members and former soldiers further increased tensions between Lavalas and Convergence. On December 17, 2001, unidentified gunmen attacked the National Palace in Port-au-Prince. Following the assault, pro-government groups attacked the offices and homes of several opposition leaders. One opposition member was killed. Negotiations between FL and Democratic Convergence, already on hold following the July violence, were suspended indefinitely.

In January 2002, the OAS Permanent Council adopted Resolution 806 on Haiti that called for government action to address the political stalemate, growing violence, and deterioration in respect for human rights. It also authorized OAS establishment of a Special Mission in Haiti to support implementation of steps called for in Resolution 806. T

The OAS Special Mission began operations in March 2002, working with the government on plans to strengthen Haiti’s democratic institutions in security, justice, human rights, and governance. Nevertheless, the climate of security deteriorated and a rapidly weakening economy created risks of a humanitarian disaster.

The OAS Permanent Council adopted Resolution 822, September 4, 2002, which set a new course for resolving the crisis by: committing the Haitian government to a series of steps leading to an improved climate of security for free and fair elections in 2003; supporting Haiti’s resumption of normal relations with the International Financial Institutions; and strengthening the mandate of the OAS to monitor as well as support GOH efforts to comply with OAS resolutions. It also conferred new mandates related to conduct of elections and disarmament.

Protest strikes and attacks on opposition demonstrations by government-supported gangs between November 2002 and February 2003 hardened attitudes on both sides. The opposition issued a public call for Aristide’s removal and announced plans for a transitional government. In March, 2003, a high-level joint delegation of the OAS and Caribbean Community (CARICOM) presented specific demands to President Aristide to restore public security and create confidence necessary to move toward elections: select new leadership for the Haitian National Police in consultation with the OAS; arrest Amiot Metayer, a notorious gang leader; and disarm the security forces used by government politicians to intimidate opponents.

Since then, a new police chief, appointed June 9 in consultation with the OAS, resigned and fled the country June 23 after being ordered to give up his authority over budget and personnel; government-paid thugs violently disrupted a civil society public ceremony July 12 in Cité Soleil; police attacked civil society marches in Cap Haitien August 30 and September 14 and prevented an opposition march scheduled for October 5. Amiot Metayer was murdered September 21 (it is widely believed the government ordered the murder to prevent release of compromising information). The government announced August 13 that it was re-activating a defunct CEP in what many have interpreted as a move toward holding elections outside the framework of OAS Resolution 822 .

The OAS and other foreign observers, including the U.S., have denounced these steps. To re-invigorate the process envisioned in Resolution 822, the OAS designated a Special Envoy for Dialogue in Haiti, Terence Todman, a retired U.S. Career Ambassador. Todman, a native of the U.S. Virgin Islands, undertook three negotiating missions to Haiti in September-October 2003.

Political instability grew throughout fall 2003. In Gonaives, Metayer’s followers, hitherto pro-Aristide, led a violent rebellion against government authorities in the city. Government-sponsored repression of opposition protests reached a nadir when on December 5 pro-government gangs entered Haiti’s state university campus and broke the legs of the Rector.

Following a meeting with Aristide at the Summit of the Americas in January 2004, Caribbean Community leaders proposed a plan to resolve the political crisis. President Aristide stated he accepted the plan at a meeting January 31. However, as the plan remained unimplemented, a high-level international delegation came to Haiti February 21 to obtain agreement on specific implementation timetable. President Aristide agreed, but the opposition “Democratic Platform” group of political parties and civil society expressed reservations.

Meanwhile, the violence in Gonaives culminated February 5 in the former Cannibal Army, now called the Artibonite Resistance Front, seizing control of the city. Other armed groups opposed to the Aristide government quickly emerged and succeeded in seizing control of many towns, mostly with little resistance from government authorities. By February 28, a rebel group led by a former police chief, Guy Philippe, had advanced to within 25 miles of the capital.

On February 29, Aristide submitted his resignation as President of Haiti and flew on a chartered plane to the Central African Republic. Boniface Alexandre, President (chief justice) of Haiti’s Supreme Court, assumed office as interim President in accordance with Haiti’s constitution.

International Presence

After the transition of the 21,000-strong MNF into a peacekeeping force on March 31, 1995, the presence of international military forces that helped restore constitutional government to power was gradually ended. Initially, the U.S.-led UN peacekeeping force numbered 6,000 troops, but that number was scaled back progressively over the next 4 years as a series of UN technical missions succeeded the peacekeeping force. By January 2000, all U.S. troops stationed in Haiti had departed. In March 2000, the UN peacekeeping mission transitioned into a peace-building mission, the International Civilian Support Mission in Haiti (MICAH). MICAH consisted of some 80 non-uniformed UN technical advisers providing advice and material assistance in policing, justice, and human rights to the Haitian Government. MICAH's mandate ended on February 7, 2001, coinciding with the end of the Preval administration. The OAS Special Mission has some 25 international police advisors who arrived in summer 2003; is in addition to observing and reporting Haitian police performance, they provide limited technical assistance.

On February 29, 2004 Jean-Bertrand Aristide submitted his resignation as President of Haiti and flew on a chartered plane to the Central African Republic. Boniface Alexandre, President (chief justice) of Haiti’s Supreme Court, assumed office as interim President in accordance with Haiti’s constitution.

Now there are some reports that (Washington, D.C, January 18, 2006) – New evidence demonstrated in 2005 that torture and mistreatment have been a deliberate part of the Bush administration’s counterterrorism strategy, undermining the global defense of human rights, Human Rights Watch said today in releasing its World Report 2006 .

The evidence showed that abusive interrogation cannot be reduced to the misdeeds of a few low-ranking soldiers, but was a conscious policy choice by senior U.S. government officials. The policy has hampered Washington’s ability to cajole or pressure other states into respecting international law, said the 532-page volume’s introductory essay.

“Fighting terrorism is central to the human rights cause,” said Kenneth Roth, executive director of Human Rights Watch. “But using illegal tactics against alleged terrorists is both wrong and counterproductive.”

Roth said the illegal tactics were fueling terrorist recruitment, discouraging public assistance of counterterrorism efforts and creating a pool of unprosecutable detainees.

U.S. partners such as Britain and Canada compounded the lack of human rights leadership by trying to undermine critical international protections. Britain sought to send suspects to governments likely to torture them based on meaningless assurances of good treatment. Canada sought to dilute a new treaty outlawing enforced disappearances. The European Union continued to subordinate human rights in its relationships with others deemed useful in fighting terrorism, such as Russia, China and Saudi Arabia.

Many countries – Uzbekistan, Russia and China among them – used the “war on terrorism” to attack their political opponents, branding them as “Islamic terrorists.”

Human Rights Watch documented many serious abuses outside the fight against terrorism. In May, the government of Uzbekistan massacred hundreds of demonstrators in Andijan, the Sudanese government consolidated “ethnic cleansing” in Darfur, western Sudan, and persistent atrocities were reported in the Democratic Republic of Congo and Chechnya. Severe repression continued in Burma, North Korea, Turkmenistan, and Tibet and Xinjiang in China, while Syria and Vietnam maintained tight restrictions on civil society and Zimbabwe conducted massive, politically motivated forced evictions.

There were bright spots in efforts to uphold human rights by the Western powers in Burma and North Korea. Developing nations also played a positive role: India suspended most military aid to Nepal after the king’s coup, and the Association of Southeast Asian Nations forced Burma to relinquish its 2006 chairmanship because of its appalling human rights record. Mexico took the lead in convincing the United Nations to maintain a special rapporteur on protecting human rights while countering terrorism. Kyrgyzstan withstood intense pressure from Uzbekistan to rescue all but four of 443 refugees from the Andijan massacre, and Romania gave them temporary refuge.

The lack of leadership by Western powers sometimes ceded the field to Russia and China, which built economic, social and political alliances without regard to human rights.

In his introductory essay to the World Report, Roth writes that it became clear in 2005 that U.S. mistreatment of detainees could not be reduced to a failure of training, discipline or oversight, or reduced to “a few bad apples,” but reflected a deliberate policy choice embraced by the top leadership.

Evidence of that deliberate policy included the threat by President George W. Bush to veto a bill opposing “cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment,” Roth writes, and Vice President Dick Cheney’s attempt to exempt the Central Intelligence Agency from the law. In addition, Attorney General Alberto Gonzales claimed that the United States can mistreat detainees so long as they are non-Americans held abroad, while CIA Director Porter Goss asserted that “waterboarding,” a torture method dating back to the Spanish Inquisition, was simply a “professional interrogation technique.”

“Responsibility for the use of torture and mistreatment can no longer credibly be passed off to misadventures by low-ranking soldiers on the nightshift,” said Roth. “The Bush administration must appoint a special prosecutor to examine these abuses, and Congress should set up an independent, bipartisan panel to investigate.”

The Human Rights Watch World Report 2006 contains survey information on human rights developments in more than 70 countries in 2005. In addition to the introductory essay on torture, the volume contains two essays: “Private Companies and the Public Interest: Why Corporations Should Welcome Global Human Rights Rules” and “Preventing the Further Spread of HIV/AIDS: The Essential Role of Human Rights.”

Now remember...

On February 29, 2004, Haiti’s first democratically elected president, Jean-Bertrand Aristide, was overthrown for the second time in 13 years. The opposition gangs that placed millions of Haitians under siege were armed with US-made weapons, and the opposition leadership was funded through the US Republican Party. In fact, this was no popular insurgency from Haiti’s grassroots, but a military operation funded and orchestrated by the US.

Aristide’s ouster in 2004 was the latest in a long line of US interventions in Haiti. In 1918 US Marines invaded Haiti, massacring hundreds, dismantling the constitutional system, enforcing massive land take-overs by US corporations, and installing the brutal National Guard, which terrorized the country for decades. The US also trained and protected the long-standing Duvialier dictatorship and provided military support for a series of other short-lived dictators and military juntas over the years.

From Military Coercion to Economic Coercion
The reasons for US intervention in Haiti parallel US policy motivations throughout the Caribbean: to maintain stability in a potentially volatile region while ensuring a steady source of cheap labor and dependent markets. Since the mid-1980s, US interests in Haiti have been reinforced by IMF Structural Adjustment Programs (SAPs). This form of “development” – led by the US and supported by a network of international banks and transnational corporations – has done nothing to alleviate extreme poverty in Haiti. Today, Haiti remains the poorest country in the western hemisphere. Eighty percent of Haitians live in extreme poverty, and more than half suffer from malnutrition. Unemployment is a staggering 70 percent, and tens of thousands of people die each year solely from diseases related to a lack of clean water. Meanwhile, the richest one percent of the population controls nearly half of the country’s wealth.

Before SAPs were imposed on Haiti, 70 percent of Haitians were peasant farmers. Most of the country's food came from small family plots. In order to qualify for IMF loans in the 1980s, however, Haiti was forced to comply with the usual prescription of SAPs, including slashing tariffs on US-grown rice from 30 percent to just three percent (the lowest tariff in the hemisphere). US agribusinesses soon flooded Haiti with cheap US rice; by the mid-1990s imports of US rice had increased 27-fold, bankrupting peasant farmers throughout the countryside. Malnutrition rates skyrocketed, causing an alarming rise in preventable deaths among children.

Today, Haiti is forced to import half of all its food — the highest percentage in the hemisphere. Haitian women report price increases upwards of 100 percent on the imported food they are forced to buy.

Haiti’s ‘food dependency,’ also the hemisphere’s worst, holds the government captive to further IMF demands, like the 1990s injunction against raising the minimum wage. A key ingredient of the neoliberal recipe, ‘wage repression’ was a disaster for Haitians and a boon to the many US-based assembly plants that set up shop in Port-au-Prince. Disney, Nike and other corporations continue to take advantage of a huge reserve of workers, including the tens of thousands of women who were driven off their land by US agribusiness and left with little choice but to accept jobs with US companies for rock-bottom wages under miserable conditions. Many women have been pushed into even less desirable, sometimes dangerous jobs in the informal sector (the part of the economy not counted in government statistics), such as working as maids or prostitutes.

Health care
Haiti’s health indicators reflect the high levels of inequality and political insecurity exacerbated by US-imposed policies. The full role of the US in fomenting and sustaining Haiti’s 1991-1994 coup d’etat is still being revealed. This period of violence and unrest degraded the health of an already vulnerable population through assaults, disease, trauma and a systematic campaign of rape and sexual torture, targeting supporters of Aristide’s pro-democracy movement. The coup also brought shortages of food and medicine and the suspension of most water protection, vaccination and health outreach programs. These conditions led to a rise in measles, tuberculosis, typhoid and complications from HIV infections that continue to plague Haiti. The spread of AIDS in Haiti, as in other poor countries, is directly related to migration and Structural Adjustment Programs. After Aristide was reinstated as president in 1994, SAPs mandated severe restrictions on government spending, effectively nullifying many of his proposed reforms to the health sector.

Today, there is one physician for every 20,000 people in Haiti. Average life expectancy at birth is only 50 years, and one in 16 women face a lifetime chance of dying during childbirth, compared to one in 10,000 in the US. Malnutrition threatens half the population, and almost five percent of Haitians are HIV-positive — the highest rate in the western hemisphere.

So,

Why Does the US Care About Haiti?


As a source of cheap labor: For years, US-based assembly plants have paid Haitian workers pennies an hour to produce name-brand clothing sold in the US.
As an anchor against rising wages: Haiti’s poverty wages keep production costs down across the hemisphere. Corporations can always threaten to relocate to Haiti when workers elsewhere demand better pay.
As a dangerous example: Haiti, a country founded by slaves, has always been suspect in the eyes of the US, a country founded by slaveholders. Today, the US worries that if the hemisphere’s poorest country can determine its own course, other countries may also claim the right to formulate their own policies without interference from Washington.

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Post by Tom In VA »

Terry in Crapchester wrote:
Tom In VA wrote:You're really onto something here. Keep following that trail.
Tom, not quite sure what the point of your post was. But I can assure you that what I posted before that was hardly a departure for me. In fact, I've always said that America should take care of its own before it takes care of anyone else.

Now, I realize that people may disagree on whether we do take care of our own, or for that matter, whether we are capable of taking care of our own. But if the answer to those questions is negative, then we have no business even trying to take care of anyone else.

Jmho, and I'm sure there are some on this board who disagree with that.
Believe me, you're not the first to suggest such a thing. 'Sup George Washington.

Those damn Roosevelts.

The point is, Terry, there will be no graceful return to "taking care of our own". We're into it far too deep at present and it is far too profitable for far too many people on both the left and right, to stick our nose into other people's business.
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Post by Van »

Terry in Crapchester wrote:
Jsc810 wrote:
Filthy McNastie wrote:I hate to sounc "cold" about the little Haiti children.

But...there are people right here in the good ol' US of A that have got it just as bad.
Yup.
Agreed. Which is why I was never real keen on the argument that "we have to liberate the Iraqis" as justification for the Iraq War.

And before somebody twists what I just said way out of context, let me say that I don't mean that Americans need to be liberated from their government first. Just saying that there were, and are, plenty of people here who have it just as bad here as do those in Iraq. And my natural sympathies are to help those who are in the USA first.
Well, no. Not really. Not at all.

Our poorest and most morbidly obese welfare dirtbags still live better than the average Iraqi citizen and at no time in modern history have any of our citizens ever been subjected to being gassed and killed at the clip of 100,000 plus...

We don't do geneocide here. Not a lotta daily suicide bombing victims either. We also aren't finding 75 beheaded Protestants on the streets of Des Moines, courtesy of the Catholics...

Terry, let's try to keep things in perspective here.
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Post by Van »

Toussaint L'Ouverture
Quite possibly the coolest name ever...

...but still there's no excuse for African Americans coming up with all their lame attempts at pseudo French names.

:-)
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Post by Terry in Crapchester »

Van wrote:
Terry in Crapchester wrote:
Jsc810 wrote: Yup.
Agreed. Which is why I was never real keen on the argument that "we have to liberate the Iraqis" as justification for the Iraq War.

And before somebody twists what I just said way out of context, let me say that I don't mean that Americans need to be liberated from their government first. Just saying that there were, and are, plenty of people here who have it just as bad here as do those in Iraq. And my natural sympathies are to help those who are in the USA first.
Well, no. Not really. Not at all.

Our poorest and most morbidly obese welfare dirtbags still live better than the average Iraqi citizen and at no time in modern history have any of our citizens ever been subjected to being gassed and killed at the clip of 100,000 plus...

We don't do geneocide here. Not a lotta daily suicide bombing victims either. We also aren't finding 75 beheaded Protestants on the streets of Des Moines, courtesy of the Catholics...

Terry, let's try to keep things in perspective here.
Maybe not, but we are finding people living in abject poverty. People who don't know where the money for next month's rent will come from. Heck, people who don't know where the money for tonight's dinner will come from. Or even worse than that.

These people are my countrymen. The people in Iraq are not. I'd rather help my countrymen first, although I realize there are others who disagree. That's all I'm saying.
Last edited by Terry in Crapchester on Tue Apr 11, 2006 6:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Tom In VA »

Van wrote:
Terry in Crapchester wrote:
Jsc810 wrote: Yup.
Agreed. Which is why I was never real keen on the argument that "we have to liberate the Iraqis" as justification for the Iraq War.

And before somebody twists what I just said way out of context, let me say that I don't mean that Americans need to be liberated from their government first. Just saying that there were, and are, plenty of people here who have it just as bad here as do those in Iraq. And my natural sympathies are to help those who are in the USA first.
Well, no. Not really. Not at all.

Our poorest and most morbidly obese welfare dirtbags still live better than the average Iraqi citizen and at no time in modern history have any of our citizens ever been subjected to being gassed and killed at the clip of 100,000 plus...

We don't do geneocide here, anymore. Not a lotta daily suicide bombing victims either. We also aren't finding 75 beheaded Protestants on the streets of Des Moines, courtesy of the Catholics.

Terry, let's try to keep things in perspective here.

FTFY


Glad to know the Knights of Columbus have such a high degree of operational security. Not as good as the Free Masons but, I digress.
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Terry,

Nobody but you is stopping you from helping your countrymen, if you choose.

You'd just like to make that choice for everyone else and do it with their money, as opposed to your own.
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Post by Terry in Crapchester »

Tom In VA wrote:Terry,

Nobody but you is stopping you from helping your countrymen, if you choose.
I can help, and to the extent I'm able, I do. But I'm just one person, with an extremely finite financial ability to help.
You'd just like to make that choice for everyone else and do it with their money, as opposed to your own.
Wouldn't it be my money as well as everyone else's? And are you saying I'm the only person who would have it this way?
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Risa wrote:Who crippled Haiti when it became the very first nation AFTER the United States, in the Western Hemisphere, to fight for and gain it's independence from its mother country?
I dunno but I sure hope it wasn't Quargnarlican or Mervis because if it was I'm going to stop praying for them.
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Terry in Crapchester wrote:
You'd just like to make that choice for everyone else and do it with their money, as opposed to your own.
Wouldn't it be my money as well as everyone else's? And are you saying I'm the only person who would have it this way?
No I actually meant to end that sentence with a "?"

But the platform you get behind does appear to be into compulsory/involuntary charity as opposed to being "Pro Choice".
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Post by Terry in Crapchester »

Tom In VA wrote:
Terry in Crapchester wrote:
You'd just like to make that choice for everyone else and do it with their money, as opposed to your own.
Wouldn't it be my money as well as everyone else's? And are you saying I'm the only person who would have it this way?
No I actually meant to end that sentence with a "?"

But the platform you get behind does appear to be into compulsory/involuntary charity as opposed to being "Pro Choice".
My main concern is that the charity gets done, not who does it. If it were being done adequately at the private level, I'd be fine with it. But that's obviously not the case.
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Terry in Crapchester wrote: My main concern is that the charity gets done, not who does it. If it were being done adequately at the private level, I'd be fine with it. But that's obviously not the case.
Another thread. But having it done at the government level is only adequate for the politicians who get to keep their jobs and then get rich off their "power", and then collect enormous fees on the speakers circuit when they "retire". But the argument could be made that the agencies do employ some people who normally wouldn't have an opportunity to learn some skills. Which is nice if you live in D.C. or the capitals of the states in the union.
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Post by Van »

Moorese wrote:
Risa wrote:Who crippled Haiti when it became the very first nation AFTER the United States, in the Western Hemisphere, to fight for and gain it's independence from its mother country?
I dunno but I sure hope it wasn't Quargnarlican or Mervis because if it was I'm going to stop praying for them.
Laughing for days over here...

Tom, notice where I specified, "in our modern history"?

See, Terry's attempting to compare the plight of modern day Americans with that of modern day Iraqis. They don't compare, not even a little. We don't do genocide, we don't see mass beheadings in the streets and even our lowest welfare bums still live much higher on the hog (you don't get that fat from wondering where your next meal is coming from) than the average $4.98 per week income Iraqi...
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Post by Terry in Crapchester »

Tom In VA wrote:
Terry in Crapchester wrote: My main concern is that the charity gets done, not who does it. If it were being done adequately at the private level, I'd be fine with it. But that's obviously not the case.
Another thread.
Agreed, just addressing what you raised previously.
But having it done at the government level is only adequate for the politicians who get to keep their jobs and then get rich off their "power", and then collect enormous fees on the speakers circuit when they "retire".
You're right that it's not adequate at the government level, but wrong as to the reason.

The real reason is that certain politicians, many of whom you would appear to support, have scapegoated aid to the poor as the main source of an excessive federal budget. That's not even close to reality, but unfortunately, enough people have bought off on that argument that reality is pretty much moot.
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Post by Terry in Crapchester »

Van wrote:See, Terry's attempting to compare the plight of modern day Americans with that of modern day Iraqis. They don't compare, not even a little. We don't do genocide, we don't see mass beheadings in the streets . . .
That's where you're wrong, Van. The only comparison is that both need help. Personally, I'd rather give that help to the Americans.

Disagree with that if you want, but don't mischaracterize what I'm saying.
. . . and even our lowest welfare bums still live much higher on the hog (you don't get that fat from wondering where your next meal is coming from) than the average $4.98 per week income Iraqi...
Been to the supermarket lately? Junk food is cheaper than healthier alternatives. Same for fattier cuts of meat. Nor surprising, then, that some people living on an extremely limited budget would make those choices, and would have to battle a weight problem as a result.

And most of the people living in poverty would not quite be in a position as to wondering where the money for their next meal would come from (and I never said that most poor people were in that predicament, only that some were. And most of those who are probably are not battling a weight problem). You yourself have said that Risa lives in poverty. Yet she apparently has enough disposable income to afford an internet connection (I am aware that dial-up is available for < $10.00/month, but some people can't afford even that), and apparently, a gym membership as well.

I would have thought that you, of all people, would be doing better comprehending my posts than this.
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Post by Van »

Terry in Crapchester wrote:
Van wrote:See, Terry's attempting to compare the plight of modern day Americans with that of modern day Iraqis. They don't compare, not even a little. We don't do genocide, we don't see mass beheadings in the streets . . .
That's where you're wrong, Van. The only comparison is that both need help. Personally, I'd rather give that help to the Americans.

Disagree with that if you want, but don't mischaracterize what I'm saying.
I'm not mischaracterizing anything you said.

You said...
Just saying that there were, and are, plenty of people here who have it just as bad here as do those in Iraq.
...and that's patently absurd, on any level. You wrote it, I refuted it. In terms of any measure of quality of life, whether it be the ability to feed one's self and one's family, civil rights, women's right, personal security, religious freedom, the opportunity for improving one's lot in life, you name it, there's no comparing modern American society with modern Iraqi society.

Our poorest people still have it world's better than most Iraqis.
. . . and even our lowest welfare bums still live much higher on the hog (you don't get that fat from wondering where your next meal is coming from) than the average $4.98 per week income Iraqi...
Been to the supermarket lately? Junk food is cheaper than healthier alternatives. Same for fattier cuts of meat. Nor surprising, then, that some people living on an extremely limited budget would make those choices, and would have to battle a weight problem as a result.
Please. A 350 lb welfare lady can afford to eat better (and a whole lot less, to boot) and not become a disgusting slob. She chooses to eat the way she does.

The average Iraqi doesn't have such a choice.
And most of the people living in poverty would not quite be in a position as to wondering where the money for their next meal would come from
You didn't complete your thought there so I don't know what point you're trying to make there.

The bottom line is that nobody in America who isn't enormously self destructive need ever wonder where the next meal will come from...
(and I never said that most poor people were in that predicament, only that some were. And most of those who are probably are not battling a weight problem).
Again, if that's the case, it's down to people taking their opportunities and squandering them. Nobody in America lacks for opportunity, not even the most bedraggled welfare slug. By contrast, very few people in Iraq have any opportunity.
You yourself have said that Risa lives in poverty.
By U.S. census standards, nearly so.

By Iraqi standards?? She lives the life of a wealthy suburbanite.
Yet she apparently has enough disposable income to afford an internet connection (I am aware that dial-up is available for < $10.00/month, but some people can't afford even that), and apparently, a gym membership as well.
Thank you for so eloquently detailing my case. Not a lotta poverty level Iraqis chatting you up and finding fuck buddies on the web in between visits to the gym, Taco Bell in hand, are there?

Also, does Annie fear for her life, every time she opens her piehole? With all her anti American conspiracy drivel she sure as hell would if she were doing her usual shit in Iraq, in outspoken opposition to the Shiites.
I would have thought that you, of all people, would be doing better comprehending my posts than this.
Your comparison is hugely irresponsible. You of all people should know not to do it, and to concede the misstep and then move on when called on it. I have no problem with your wishes for Charity Starts At Home, and I agree with you (to some extent, anyway) but let's not grossly missrepresent our situation here in America merely to help advance another of your anti Bush arguments...
Last edited by Van on Tue Apr 11, 2006 7:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Moorese »

mvscal wrote:Well my main concern is my family.
That's pretty fucking selfish, mv. What about Quarbolivon? What about Yerbis? Aren't they in your prayers?
I don't give a fuck about yours or anyone else's family.
Okey dokey then. Nevermind.
When life hands you a park steak, you'd better motherfucking ISSUE it.

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Liberate Cascadia!
Goober McTuber
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Post by Goober McTuber »

Van,

Don't expect Terry to admit he misspoke. He’d sooner spend six pages spinning and denying. Just re-read the creationist thread, you’ll see.
Joe in PB wrote: Yeah I'm the dumbass
schmick, speaking about Larry Nassar's pubescent and prepubescent victims wrote: They couldn't even kick that doctors ass

Seems they rather just lay there, get fucked and play victim
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Van
2012 CFB Bowl Pick Champ
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Post by Van »

Fucking Moorese...

"Quarbolivon"...

:-) :-) :-)
Joe Satriani is a mime, right? - 88

Show me your dicks. - trev
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Van
2012 CFB Bowl Pick Champ
Posts: 17017
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 4:38 am

Post by Van »

Goober McTuber wrote:Van,

Don't expect Terry to admit he misspoke. He’d sooner spend six pages spinning and denying. Just re-read the creationist thread, you’ll see.
This is twice in the last week where Terry badly misspoke. The first time he did go ahead and admit to me that he could've been more careful in how he stated his case. I suspect he will this time too. Terry is pure class, and he's a mature person.

This doesn't matter to him that much that he'll make an ass out of himself digging his feet in the sand over a battle he can't win and probably didn't even intend to start.
Joe Satriani is a mime, right? - 88

Show me your dicks. - trev
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