T1B

Dinsdale wrote:You've gone with a strawman/red herring/apples-oranges point that you're accusing others of...

I've done nothing of the sort.

I just happened to notice, while typing the post - that holy shit - the planets must have aligned, or maybe it's a sign of the apocalypse...but for the first time that I can ever recall, all of the posters I mentioned actually took the same side on an issue. A unified front made up of...THAT crew?!?! I just HAD to comment on it.

Granted, it was in opposition to one of the stupidest positions ever, but, still...wow.

Dude... I didn't write the Law of BCO Astronomical Stupidity...


God did.


Again, on any other topic, you'd have a solid point, and I'd be marvelling at the odd planetary alignment...

But it's BCO. He can get Bin Laden and Ehud Olmert to unite against his ramblings.

BSmack wrote:But suffice it to say that the concepts of geocentric and flat earth cosmology are so embedded in Biblical cosmology that they don't need to be explicitly stated in terms like "the earth is flat" the way you insist.

Isaiah 40:21,22 - Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth?
It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in


But the purpose of the Bible is not to educate one about 'truths' or 'non-truths' of science.
The Bible's purpose is to for the salvation of man who is fundamentally lost in darkness apart from God.
Regardless of a man's level, his education, his background, his 'goodness', or his accomplishments, he is captured by darkness and he will eventually and inevitably fail, and eternally so.
The Bible was written to show us the way out of this problem.

It's worth realizing too that throughout history man's best scientific study has led to 'accepted truths' which have later been modified or changed.

Briefly, I'd like to speak about the examples of the 'flat earth' given.

Let look at Ecclesiastes 1:5, "The sun rises and the sun sets, and hurries back to where it rises".

You cannot have the Sun racing backwards without first presupposing a flat Earth. Even a geocentric view that supposed a spherical earth would allow for the orbit of earth by the sun. Only in the flat earth world view does one need to suppose the Sun "hurries back to where it rises".

With all due respect, I think you (or someone else) is trying WAY too hard with this example.
There is just no point to be made here, IMO.
You (or someone) is reading their own interpretation into Scripture to make it say something that is not said.

Here's another verse, from the NT that is just as flat earth biased.

"Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;" (Matthew 4:8)

You can't possibly see all the kingdoms of the world from an one vantage point on Earth unless you presuppose the world is flat.

You or I can't, true.

I'll be as brief as possible with this.

It's my own personal opinion that Jesus was not literally taken to a high mountain in this passage, but it really doesn't matter if He was or not.
This temptation account on the mountain are given in Matthew and Luke.
It's interesting to note that in Luke it says that satan showed Jesus all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.
This 'vision' or 'sight' of owning all the kingdoms of the world flashed before Jesus' ... in a moment in time.
I don't personally think this literally happend atop a mountain, but was a temptation of the mind that satan gave to Jesus.
As all temptations we face originate in the mind.

Interesting to note that the Gospels speak often of Jesus going up into mountains, and it always was done so because it was a place where he was going to have His own worship or prayer time with God.
In this temptation that satan is bringing to Jesus he is tempting him -- at a mountain -- to worship HIM instead of God.

At any rate, Jesus gave the correct reply.
It is written, thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and Him only shall thou serve.

"And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day." (Joshua 10:13)

The only way in a heliocentric world view for the Sun to "stop" in the sky would be for the Earth to stop rotating on its axis. Period. Considering the speed of the Earth's rotation is over 1000 MPH, the rather sudden stop would have caused the destruction of all life on Earth. The only way to have the Sun "stop" in the sky and not cause damage to life on Earth is to embrace a geocentric cosmology wherein the Earth's position is fixed and the Sun moves relative to the Earth. Though this does not necessarily presuppose a flat Earth, it demands a stationary Earth fixed to the center of the Universe. Which we all know is absolutely and totally not the case.

It's a miracle.

I mean, the creation of the universe is a miracle.
A man rising from the dead is a miracle.
The red sea parting is a miracle.

There are a lot of 'em.

God is God and we are not.

poptart wrote:But the purpose of the Bible is not to educate one about 'truths' or 'non-truths' of science.
The Bible's purpose is to for the salvation of man who is fundamentally lost in darkness apart from God.

Bravo.

Rack the ever-lovin heck out of 'tart.

I think that he and St. Augustine are of a like mind on the subject:

St. Augustine, in his work, 'De Genesi ad litteram libri duodecim' wrote:
Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of this world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and the seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he hold to as being certain from reason and experience.

Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking nonsense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn. The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is derided, but that people outside the household of faith think our sacred writers held such opinions, and, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of our Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men.

If they find a Christian mistaken in a field which they themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books, how are they going to believe those books in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehoods and on facts which they themselves have learnt from experience and the light of reason?

Reckless and incompetent expounders of Holy Scripture bring untold trouble and sorrow on their wiser brethren when they are caught in one of their mischievous false opinions and are taken to task by those who are not bound by the authority of our sacred books. For then, to defend their utterly foolish and obviously untrue statements, they will try to call upon Holy Scripture for proof and even recite from memory many passages which they think support their position, although they understand neither what they say nor the things about which they make assertion. [1 Timothy 1.7]

You do know what forum you're in, right? This is the theology forum.

Does that mean the points you're making are any more valid? No, it does not.