Vegas shooting

[smackaholic]

Now see, that wasn't all that hard, was it, goobs?

Sounds like you're pretty much in the right wing republican gun nut contingent with the rest of us evil racist, homophobic, xenophoobic, everythingelsephobic miscreants.

Welcome, brother.

As for my possibly moronic ideas regarding substantial numbers of the citizenry walking around with assault rifles, I'll just refer back to what the Israelis have done for more than 30 years and it seems to work for them.

Unfortunately, this is the world we live in. There are assholes in our midst and we can do things to try to prevent them for acting on their assholish tendencies, but in the end, we can not prevent their actions. We can, however do things to assist our reactions. One of those things is have the ability to fire back.

[Goober McTuber]

As for my possibly moronic ideas regarding substantial numbers of the citizenry walking around with assault rifles, I'll just refer back to what the Israelis have done for more than 30 years and it seems to work for them.

Please educate yourself, you paste-eating retard.

https://www.quora.com/Can-Israeli-citiz ... -in-public

Israli citizens need to apply to receive a permit for carrying weapons. Such a permit is hard to get since the government does not want too many weapons going around. Everywhere you go you are asked if you are carrying a weapon and must show your liscence if you do. In many places you must leave your arms for safeguard at the entrance.

Permits are given to people working as guards, IDF officers, Police and not many others. There are also a few hunter permits which are even more difficult to get by.

If you are a soldier on active duty that has a firearm for your job then yes. If you have a permit for a weapon for security reasons yes.

If you are asking asking if Israelis can just walk around armed the answer is a no. Israeli gun laws are pretty strict. If you cannot demonstrate cause to carry and have appropriate background you aren't getting a fun let alone carrying publicly.

[smackaholic]

As for my possibly moronic ideas regarding substantial numbers of the citizenry walking around with assault rifles, I'll just refer back to what the Israelis have done for more than 30 years and it seems to work for them.

Please educate yourself, you paste-eating retard.

https://www.quora.com/Can-Israeli-citiz ... -in-public

Israli citizens need to apply to receive a permit for carrying weapons. Such a permit is hard to get since the government does not want too many weapons going around. Everywhere you go you are asked if you are carrying a weapon and must show your liscence if you do. In many places you must leave your arms for safeguard at the entrance.

Permits are given to people working as guards, IDF officers, Police and not many others. There are also a few hunter permits which are even more difficult to get by.

If you are a soldier on active duty that has a firearm for your job then yes. If you have a permit for a weapon for security reasons yes.

If you are asking asking if Israelis can just walk around armed the answer is a no. Israeli gun laws are pretty strict. If you cannot demonstrate cause to carry and have appropriate background you aren't getting a fun let alone carrying publicly.

Note that in that list of people allowed to carry they mention IDF members. In Israel, that is most young people. I do not recall saying that they let anyone carry. I just said that a lot of people do and that they carry what we would call assault weapons openly. I saw it with my own eyes.


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[Diego in Seattle]

POS was using an automatic weapon.

Only 2 rounds hit the tank?

More than likely they were ricochets.

[Rooster]

Ah shit. I had this lengthy well thought out response to Smackaholic's question of what should do in these circumstances, but my internet provider took a dump on me as I pressed submit. The upshot of my post is we should do absolutely nothing. And then I offered to buy 88's rifles from him if he gave me a good price. Oh well.

[Dinsdale]

we should do absolutely nothing.

Besides taking cover or fleeing in an orderly manner, what else can anyone do? If you're packing a handgun, it's useless.

I think a nutjob spray-and-praying into a crowd might be unprecedented. There have been snipers taking high positions, but not into such a dense crowd.

How often is a crowd gathered where a shooter can get such a vantage point? I'd guess that's a pretty rare circumstance.

But I kw what we shouldn't do -- have a bunch of yahoos bust out the rifle they carried into a concert and start trying to pull off a 400 yard shot into an occupied building. While I'm far from a proficient long-range shooter, I used to spend time at a gun club with a friend doing it. It's not that easy. And if someone is standing upright, with no sandbags and bench, the odds of getting close with an AR (or any other rifle) at that range are right around zero.

[Dinsdale]

I respect you for having the carry permit, and having the weapons and guns you do, and for your careful assessment of your skills and mindset.

I don't have a permit, but as I'm sure you're aware, in Oregon, a fishing license is a de facto permit, as long as one is fishing, or in transport to and from (Oregon has rigorous background check laws, but otherwise very lax gun laws). While I don't have to travel very far out of town for things to get pretty Deliverance-ey pretty quick... I haven't carried a pistol in many years. I figure that I'm not out to harm anyone, and if Cletus the Tweeker has a gun, he's going to get the jump on me. If he doesn't have a gun, I like my chances regardless. For me, if I'm bushwhacking it down the river bank-fishing, it's not worth the extra weight. I have no problem with anyone else packing, though (except maybe those fools I saw get into a gunfight over a fishing hole on the Trask, but that was a very long time ago).

I also have a Ruger Mini 14 which is the same caliber .223 and capacity as an "assault rifle" but since it is in a rifle shape, it is not an "assault" rifle.

Funny how people perceive things. Take the magazine out of the Mini, and it looks like one of those non-scary guns... even though it does the exact thing as an AR. Sidenote -- years ago, I went shooting with a friend who has a full-auto version of the Mini (legally, which is an expensive proposition). I think it's called a CC556 or some shit. And he had a bitchin' conversion kit to shoot .22LR. The problem with the .22 is that it doesn't throw the bolt back all the way, but far enough to eject the case, which makes the cycle rate extremely fast (don't know if he ever swapped out the spring). But I will say that along with most other gun things, movies are full of shit. If you jump out from behind a barrier to take cover behind another barrier... you just got hit 5 times. It goes along with a "silencer" making a gun quiet, which Hollywood is so fond of.

[ML@Coyote]

Here's my take as a person who has never owned or even shot a gun (except for my Daisy BB rifle as a kid with which I used to harass lizards and birds). Guns don't interest me. I have nothing against people who enjoy them. But I think the idea of people arming themselves as they go about their daily routines is, well, kind of strange. And maybe a little dangerous. I've been alive for 62 years, and I've never felt like I needed to carry a gun. Nothing I own is worth shooting someone over, let alone getting shot over myself. And no one hates me enough to put a bullet in my heart or head. It just isn't something I worry about. Maybe I'm naive, but I prefer to let the cops do their jobs when it comes to catching criminals. It's what they've been trained for.

As far as Las Vegas goes, the shooting was very well planned. Every time something like this happens, people rightly try to figure out a way to prevent it from happening again. Or they try to figure out a way the carnage could've been mitigated. The truth is that these events are the price we pay for our freedom. And every time we react to something like this, we seem to lose a little more of our freedom. Some freedoms are easier to give up than others. Most of us complain but don't really mind the long security lines at airports, or the bag checks at sporting events (although the effectiveness of these can be argued). Many do mind the idea of outlawing certain types of firearms. What freedom will we lose next, if any? Or will we come to realize that probably no matter what we do, we will always be vulnerable to certain sick and hateful people?

These questions are being posed by a guy who used to ride his bike without a helmet, who used to smoke at the dinner table, who used to carry a pocket knife with him to school, who used to look forward to fireworks in the driveway on the Fourth of July, and who used to crawl around in the back of his parents' station wagon without a seat belt. I lived through it all! I see this Las Vegas shooting as tragic, but also as an event that may spark some well-intentioned people to establish procedures and laws that take away more of our freedoms. Time will tell, I guess.

[Goober McTuber]

Note that in that list of people allowed to carry they mention IDF members. In Israel, that is most young people.

They're in for 3 years. it's called conscription. Try again.

[Goober McTuber]

Ah shit. I had this lengthy well thought out response to Smackaholic's question of what should do in these circumstances, but my internet provider took a dump on me as I pressed submit.

[Derron]

Sure. If 1,000 dudes are pumping round after round in the general vicinity of the shooter, he is going to be compromised in terms of taking further shots. And yes, it is likely that someone would have capped his dome. 4-5 rounds per second is a bit much. Maybe like 1 or 2 rounds per 5 seconds, if they are aiming.

News flash here...in a tactical action like you are postulating, you don't aim. You point and pull the trigger as fast as you can. The you drop the mag and put another one in and if the OF is still firing or standing repeat the cycle. If you have a sniper on high cover then they will take the aimed shot, but the set up on these shots is very long.

I said 1 round every 5 seconds, gives ample time to reaim and fire.

That rate of fire makes you dead. I can easily get 1 round per second on semi automatic fire, with a reasonable accuracy at 100 meters.

[Goober McTuber]

I've been alive for 62 years

Wow. You are old.

[smackaholic]

Sure. If 1,000 dudes are pumping round after round in the general vicinity of the shooter, he is going to be compromised in terms of taking further shots. And yes, it is likely that someone would have capped his dome. 4-5 rounds per second is a bit much. Maybe like 1 or 2 rounds per 5 seconds, if they are aiming.

News flash here...in a tactical action like you are postulating, you don't aim. You point and pull the trigger as fast as you can. The you drop the mag and put another one in and if the OF is still firing or standing repeat the cycle. If you have a sniper on high cover then they will take the aimed shot, but the set up on these shots is very long.

I said 1 round every 5 seconds, gives ample time to reaim and fire.

That rate of fire makes you dead. I can easily get 1 round per second on semi automatic fire, with a reasonable accuracy at 100 meters.

As an experienced shooter, perhaps you can get a decent group at 100 yards with 1 round/second. If you give yourself a few more seconds, I believe your accuracy improves substantially. I think 5 seconds is plenty of time to get about as accurate as you can.

What sort of group would you expect is possible at 400 yards, standing, with a scope, since 88 pointed out that iron sites are useless without good light.


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[Derron]

I've never needed to own a 50-round clip, 30 round MAGAZINE,

Fixed that for you. While there are some 50 round MAGAZINES available, it works better to tape two 30 rounds together and just flip it over on the reload. Clips are an early ammo storage / loading device, was used a lot in WW II type weapons in the .30 caliber sizes. Capacity is usually less than 10 rounds.

I do believe that gun shows should be subjected to the same background checks that retail gun shops deal with.

Varies by state, but most are. The " gun show loophole" is a fucking lie put forth by lying Democratic politicians such as Ron Wyden, Tina Kotex and a host of others. Background checks in Oregon have been going on for quite some time. The pussy bleeding liberals that control this state passed an "emergency" law ( emergency means that it cannot be referred to the voters at any time) that extends the back ground check to all private sales as well. Any time you sell a gun to another person you must go to a FFL and have them run a background check on that person and pay them to do that. It is a crime not to do this.

There may be some commerce going on for people that have older weapons that have never been in the system, but virtually every gun sold in our state anyway in the last 15 years is " registered" when you buy it. I am sure the fact that I buy and / or sell 3 to 5 guns a year has nothing to do with me getting the nitrate wipe down and the TSA dudes like to fuck with me every time I fly.

[Derron]

As an experienced shooter, perhaps you can get a decent group at 100 yards with 1 round/second. If you give yourself a few more seconds, I believe your accuracy improves substantially. I think 5 seconds is plenty of time to get about as accurate as you can.

Let us put this in context here. If you are shooting at humans you have a fairly large target, the body mass, say 2 feet wide by 4 feet high. Any shot in that area, while potentially not a kill shot takes you out of the fight and compromises you completely.

What sort of group would you expect is possible at 400 yards, standing, with a scope, since 88 pointed out that iron sites are useless without good light.

As an experienced shooter, I could not hit the broad side of a barn at 400 yards standing with a scope. You might get close with a side rest against a tree, but unless you can get the stock / barrel stable that is not a shot you can make. I have dropped elk at 350 yards with a scope, resting on a log with about a 5 minute set up time.

[Goober McTuber]

I've never needed to own a 50-round clip, 30 round MAGAZINE,

Fixed that for you. While there are some 50 round MAGAZINES available, it works better to tape two 30 rounds together and just flip it over on the reload. Clips are an early ammo storage / loading device, was used a lot in WW II type weapons in the .30 caliber sizes. Capacity is usually less than 10 rounds.

I do believe that gun shows should be subjected to the same background checks that retail gun shops deal with.

Varies by state, but most are. The " gun show loophole" is a fucking lie put forth by lying Democratic politicians such as Ron Wyden, Tina Kotex and a host of others. Background checks in Oregon have been going on for quite some time. The pussy bleeding liberals that control this state passed an "emergency" law ( emergency means that it cannot be referred to the voters at any time) that extends the back ground check to all private sales as well. Any time you sell a gun to another person you must go to a FFL and have them run a background check on that person and pay them to do that. It is a crime not to do this.

There may be some commerce going on for people that have older weapons that have never been in the system, but virtually every gun sold in our state anyway in the last 15 years is " registered" when you buy it. I am sure the fact that I buy and / or sell 3 to 5 guns a year has nothing to do with me getting the nitrate wipe down and the TSA dudes like to fuck with me every time I fly.

Well, if we're just going to use anecdotal evidence from our home state, gun shows here have no background checks. Find out the regs for each state and get back to me before suggesting that the gun show loophole is some kind of lie.

[ML@Coyote]

I've been alive for 62 years

Wow. You are old.

Not really that old. True, I don't have to work anymore. But I still have remember sex. I have all most of my teeth. My memory is sharp as a whatchamacallit. The last time I got my car washed, I turned down the senior discount. And I fit into the same size brand of jeans I wore in high school. My wife says I act like a twelve year old, and if my parents were alive they'd probably say the same thing. If there's one thing I've learned, it's that one is only as old as he feels.

[Dinsdale]

If there's one thing I've learned, it's that one is only as old as the women he feels.

[Goober McTuber]

I've been alive for 62 years

Wow. You are old.

Not really that old. True, I don't have to work anymore. But I still have remember sex. I have all most of my teeth. My memory is sharp as a whatchamacallit. The last time I got my car washed, I turned down the senior discount. And I fit into the same size brand of jeans I wore in high school. My wife says I act like a twelve year old, and if my parents were alive they'd probably say the same thing. If there's one thing I've learned, it's that one is only as old as he feels.

Hopefully shutyomouth will stop by to explain it to you. You're 62. You're really old. End of discussion.

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

But I kw what we shouldn't do -- have a bunch of yahoos bust out the rifle they carried into a concert and start trying to pull off a 400 yard shot into an occupied building. While I'm far from a proficient long-range shooter, I used to spend time at a gun club with a friend doing it. It's not that easy. And if someone is standing upright, with no sandbags and bench, the odds of getting close with an AR (or any other rifle) at that range are right around zero.

Not to mention we're talking about a country music concert. In Vegas. Safe to say most of those in attendance had one or several Bud Rice's in their system. A whole bunch of Chris Kyle wannabe's with impaired judgment and impaired motor skills wielding ARs in a large crowd of people with no visible target...sounds like a great plan.

[Dinsdale]

I mean, don't get me wrong -- the wholesale slaughter of people who attend shitty country music festivals isn't necessarily a bad thing... I'm just saying you can't start shooting into hotel windows willy-nilly. Hookers are people, too.

[FiatLux]

Hookers are people, too.

Huh?

[Screw_Michigan]

Ah shit. I had this lengthy well thought out response to Smackaholic's question of what should do in these circumstances, but my internet provider took a dump on me as I pressed submit.

Bode us

[Goober McTuber]

I've been alive for 62 years

Wow. You are old.

You've got scars older than ML.

I got underwear older than ML. But not as crusty.

[Screw_Michigan]

I got underwear older than ML. But not as crusty.

:?

[Rooster]

I've never needed to own a 50-round clip, 30 round MAGAZINE,

Fixed that for you. While there are some 50 round MAGAZINES available, it works better to tape two 30 rounds together and just flip it over on the reload. Clips are an early ammo storage / loading device, was used a lot in WW II type weapons in the .30 caliber sizes. Capacity is usually less than 10 rounds.

I do believe that gun shows should be subjected to the same background checks that retail gun shops deal with.

Varies by state, but most are. The " gun show loophole" is a fucking lie put forth by lying Democratic politicians such as Ron Wyden, Tina Kotex and a host of others. Background checks in Oregon have been going on for quite some time. The pussy bleeding liberals that control this state passed an "emergency" law ( emergency means that it cannot be referred to the voters at any time) that extends the back ground check to all private sales as well. Any time you sell a gun to another person you must go to a FFL and have them run a background check on that person and pay them to do that. It is a crime not to do this.

There may be some commerce going on for people that have older weapons that have never been in the system, but virtually every gun sold in our state anyway in the last 15 years is " registered" when you buy it. I am sure the fact that I buy and / or sell 3 to 5 guns a year has nothing to do with me getting the nitrate wipe down and the TSA dudes like to fuck with me every time I fly.

Well, if we're just going to use anecdotal evidence from our home state, gun shows here have no background checks. Find out the regs for each state and get back to me before suggesting that the gun show loophole is some kind of lie.

I wouldn't characterize it as a lie, per se, but rather a popular misconception. Gun shows are regulated by the same strictures that govern gun sales in fixed location gun stores. The exception to this rule is where an individual may sell a weapon to another person who resides in the same state where the gun show is being held. It's the same principle as if you sell a handgun to your next door neighbor. Granted, some municipalities and states have specific rules concerning this particular "loophole", but the idea that people are going to gun shows to avoid background checks is false. It's just another myth the gun grabbers spout to convince an uneducated public that their arguments have merit.

[mvscal]

Probably not since that has not been established as a fact. I think it is likely given the target but there is nothing else to corroborate that.

There is nothing on this guy. What's the worst thing we've heard about this guy? He once snapped at his girlfriend in Starbucks and didn't wave to a neighbor? No criminal record. No particular ideological or religious leanings. No history of mental illness. Well known to the hotels and casinos in town. Not a whale by any means. Paid his tabs.

He's is a blank canvas. People, LEO and the media will be painting all sorts of pictures on it and they will almost certainly all be total bullshit.

[smackaholic]

If it can be shown that he was not a life long gun nut firearms collector, but did it all within the last year, you might make a pretty good case for him being a gun ban nazi.

There was a shrink forensics expert dude on one of the cable news shows a few days ago trying to categorize this shitbag and he said given his age and personal circumstances, this was the one option that made sense.

Hopefully further digging will find something.