Vegas shooting

[Joe in PB]

Tom Petty always seemed like a top 40 guy to me, mostly pop. Was going to check him out with Mudpuppy until I saw tickets were $125 for a GA venue. RIP.

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Tom Petty top 40 ?? You have no fucking idea what you are talking about. It was Mud Crutch you fucking idiot.

Sure I do, I've been around since he first broke out. For me he was always the guy who's songs were beat to death on the radio, and had limited instrumental contributions.

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[mvscal]

If everyone of the concert attendees had a hand-gun, this massacre would have NEVER happened.

Right. Guess you didn't know the part where he had fertilizer & bomb-making items in his car. Your pitiful stupidity never ceases to amaze.

Except that he didn't. If he did, he should have just kamikazied a truck bomb into the venue. He could have tripled his body count. He was also a pilot, so he could have packed all that shit into a plane and crashed it into the crowd.

[FiatLux]

If everyone of the concert attendees had a hand-gun, this massacre would have NEVER happened.

Right. Guess you didn't know the part where he had fertilizer & bomb-making items in his car. Your pitiful stupidity never ceases to amaze.

Is Porky really this stupid?

[mvscal]

I'd read where he did. Was that in error?

He had some tannerite at his house. It's legal and very commonly used to make things go boom at the range.

[smackaholic]

If they all had handguns it wouldn't have done a whole lot of good, but if a few dozen of them, spread throughout the crowd had ARs with scopes, they could have quickly flushed that turd or at least pinned him down.

We need to adopt the same tactics the Israelis have out of necessity. Allow and promote open carry of rifles by the good guys, so that when a single POS starts shooting, someone shoots back.

[Dinsdale]

If they all had handguns it wouldn't have done a whole lot of good, but if a few dozen of them, spread throughout the crowd had ARs with scopes, they could have quickly flushed that turd or at least pinned him down.

Yeah, because they all would have had their scopes sighted in at that distance. Shooting an unsighted rifle into a hotel... what could possibly go wrong?

[smackaholic]

What could have gone right is a few dozen proficient shooters at least getting his attention and possibly getting lucky and taking him out.

What DID go right is he had twenty minutes to shoot unimpeded.

[Dinsdale]

And the people in the surrounding rooms?

You're sounding dumb.

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

And the people in the surrounding rooms?

You're sounding dumb.

Please...don't encourage him...

[Moving Sale]

And the people in the surrounding rooms?

You're sounding dumb.

Also sounds like there would be a lot of dead hookers.

[Dinsdale]

Also sounds like there would be a lot of dead hookers.

You mean beyond the norm, right?

[Moving Sale]

Yes.
That was a poorly constructed sentence.

[FiatLux]

dead hookers.

What's going on here?

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

norm

scan that

[smackaholic]

And the people in the surrounding rooms?

You're sounding dumb.

So long as they were not looking out the window they likely would have been fine. Also, note that I said competent people with sighted rifles should. E firing back. At 400 yards they ought to be able to hit his room.

Are you saying that a group under attack should not fire back lest there be collateral damage?


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[smackaholic]

And the people in the surrounding rooms?

You're sounding dumb.

Also sounds like there would be a lot of dead hookers.

Aren't dead hookers is Vegas pretty much a given?


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[Goober McTuber]

Jesus Christ you are a fucking moron. Not too many shooters proficient at 400 yards. Then you copy Dinsdale's dead hooker joke. Just STFU until you have something interesting to say. Which should be just about never.

[smackaholic]

I am not saying that someone could pull off a head shot on that asshole at 400 yards. I am saying that a handful of decent shooters plunking away at him would get his attention as worst and quite possibly get a hit. They would undoubtedly make his job, mowing down innocent people a bit more difficult.

[Dinsdale]

I am not saying that someone could pull off a head shot on that asshole at 400 yards. I am saying that a handful of decent shooters plunking away at him would get his attention as worst and quite possibly get a hit. They would undoubtedly make his job, mowing down innocent people a bit more difficult.

^^^^^^^

Never shot an unsighted rifle at 400 yards... obviously.

You're out of your fucking mind. A 400 yard shot is really tough under optimal conditions. One without sighting in the scope (open sights would be better for such an endeavor), shooting upwards 300+ plus feet... maybe an elite military sniper with the right gun.

Otherwise... dead hookers and gamblers.

[smackaholic]

I am not an experienced shooter. 88, if my spread sheet serves me right is.

88, if you were standing in that lot with a reasonably light weight rifle with a scope. Actually, fuck scopes, lets say iron sights. If you were 400 yards from a busted out 32nd floor window, how many rounds do you think you could put in a 5x5 ft square from a standing position. Suppose there are 50 88s dispersed through this crowd.

I have fired an M16, iron sights, standing, kneeling and prone. I forget the range we shot from. I believe it was around 100 yards. I had a pretty decent grouping and am reasonably sure I could get at least half my shots through that window.

[Mikey]

Yeah but the concept sounds pretty righteous.


To a 12 year old kid addicted to playing FPS shoot em up games in mom's basement.

[smackaholic]

I am not saying that someone could pull off a head shot on that asshole at 400 yards. I am saying that a handful of decent shooters plunking away at him would get his attention as worst and quite possibly get a hit. They would undoubtedly make his job, mowing down innocent people a bit more difficult.

^^^^^^^

Never shot an unsighted rifle at 400 yards... obviously.

You're out of your fucking mind. A 400 yard shot is really tough under optimal conditions. One without sighting in the scope (open sights would be better for such an endeavor), shooting upwards 300+ plus feet... maybe an elite military sniper with the right gun.

Otherwise... dead hookers and gamblers.

You are right. I have not. And I will say this again, slowly.

I am not saying you'd score a kill first shot as a good shooter might.

Fukk talking slow.

I am saying that a few dozen individuals, let's say 1 in a 1000 of a 22000 group, all firing at him with rifles will likely score some sort of hit fairly quickly. If they got off 1 shot every 5 seconds which is very doable, you are looking at 4-5 rounds per second. That is close to 300 rounds in a minute. That fukker is gonna know he's being shot at. His effectiveness is going to be curtailed.

[Dinsdale]

And to hell with anyone else in the hotel... just keep plinking.

That's some of the dumbest shit I've ever heard.

[Goober McTuber]

I am not saying that someone could pull off a head shot on that asshole at 400 yards. I am saying that a handful of decent shooters plunking away at him would get his attention as worst and quite possibly get a hit. They would undoubtedly make his job, mowing down innocent people a bit more difficult.

^^^^^^^

Never shot an unsighted rifle at 400 yards... obviously.

You're out of your fucking mind. A 400 yard shot is really tough under optimal conditions. One without sighting in the scope (open sights would be better for such an endeavor), shooting upwards 300+ plus feet... maybe an elite military sniper with the right gun.

Otherwise... dead hookers and gamblers.

You are right. I have not. And I will say this again, slowly.

I am not saying you'd score a kill first shot as a good shooter might.

You might. Probably wouldn't be the person you're aiming at, but so what? Your whole premise is insane. A wild west scenario with bullets flying everywhere. No thank you.

[Rooster]

Once the adrenaline kicks in your hands become paws. A 400 yard shot from the ground up with all the ballistics and the angle and confusion and the people running in front of you and finally that adrenaline? Nope. You'd probably hit the Mandalay Bay Casino somewhere, but anywhere near that particular window(s) would be a lucky, lucky shot.

[smackaholic]

I'm watching foxnews. A "counter-terrorism expert" is talking about how this dickhead was plunking nearby "jet fuel" tanks. He says we are lucky a round didn't penetrate a tank or it would have exploded.

Does anyone know what jet fuel is?

It is more or less, diesel or heating fuel.

Every try to set that stuff on fire? It is really fukking difficult. I had to burn clean an old heating oil tank before dragging it to the dump. Took me twenty minutes to get it lit. Had to drop one lit wadded up piece of burning newspaper after another in. The shit just doesn't vaporize very well when sitting in a tank. And this tank was sawzalled in half. It had all the air in the world.

It the tank was near empty and he was pumping tracer rounds into it, I suspect he might light it off, but regular 223 rounds into a half full tank? Fire away.

[Dr_Phibes]

Undiagnosed schizo, the rapidity of his 'shift'? Is remarkable. There was another one who shot up a Batman film a few years ago, whose descent was as rapid?

[Dinsdale]

I'm watching foxnews. A "counter-terrorism expert" is talking about how this dickhead was plunking nearby "jet fuel" tanks. He says we are lucky a round didn't penetrate a tank or it would have exploded.

Sounds pretty foxnewsy. He might be a "counter-terrorism" expert, but a chemistry failure. Where does the oxygen come from in this "explosion"?

Gas cans don't explode when you shoot them (or so I've HEARD), and I believe gasoline has a lower flash point than kerosene (jet fuel).

And those tanks are pretty thick. Would take one hell of a gun (sup Weatherby) to penetrate a storage tank at 400 yards, I would think.

[Derron]

I am not saying that someone could pull off a head shot on that asshole at 400 yards. I am saying that a handful of decent shooters plunking away at him would get his attention as worst and quite possibly get a hit. They would undoubtedly make his job, mowing down innocent people a bit more difficult.

This is fucking insane to think it could happen. That handful of decent shooters would have to have over 5,000 practice rounds under the exact same conditions to be even close. My son was a USMC sniper in Iraq. He trained for 4 months in the MOS, and fired over 10,000 rounds before he went in country. He has a log book with every shot he took in practice and combat with conditions and all kinds of data. After he got out, we still do long range shooting. He set up a shot at my place over 650 yards with a scoped Savage .308 just like he used in the Corps. Took 4 shots and 45 minutes to get that one dialed in. Flat shot with some wind. He would have made that shot in country in one shot, but the normal run of the mill shooter is not going to make that shot.

I routinely make 350 to 400 yard shots with a .308, on the bench, sandbagged and set up right. Made 10 of them 2 weeks ago in the woods. This are carefully though out shots taken at an easy pace.

If you think for a minute that a "handful of decent shooters" at a downward angle firing back at over 400 yards with scoped .223, into the bright Vegas lights and reflections with incoming fire has a snowball chance in hell of putting a kill shot on that dude, then you are smoking crack.

The amounts of collateral damage random firing in that situation would be immense. When one of my other boys was in Afghanistan, they had some fairly close contact with a couple of rag heads that took off running down the wadi in the brush from them. About 10 of them dumped a full mag each and a few rips off the SAW in the general direction about 100 yards away and 50 yards wide and got one of them. That is a lot of ammo into the area.

[Derron]

Does anyone know what jet fuel is?

It is more or less, diesel or heating fuel.

JP 4, kerosene, stove oil, # 1 Diesel. COMBUSTIBLE. Placard 1993. Must have direct contact with flame or suitable ignition source.

Gasoline - FLAMMABLE. Placard 1203. Vapors are ignitable with very small amount of source.

You can put a match out in diesel or jet fuel if you are fast enough.

[Derron]

Shooting at people, even in self-defense, rarely works out good for anyone involved. The statistics for self-defense use of firearms is amazingly disappointing. Almost no one gets hit unless the range is very close.

Good points. YouTube is full of support for this.

I've had a concealed carry license for more than 10 years.

I have had one for 20 years. Good choice even if you choose not to carry.

That being said, I have never once carried a concealed handgun. Way too much responsibility. And if I ever thought I would be in a place where it would be a good idea to have a handgun with me, I simply choose not to go to that place.

I carry one every day. Some times two. Two extra mags. Cue the jokes and smack here trolls. I have drawn my weapon twice in 30 years. Once 30 years ago when a drunk former employee came to my house to fuck me up , or so he said,and I pointed a SW .357 at him when he tried to open my screen door. Second time was in 2014 when a convicted 2nd degree murderer decided to come in to my wifes store parking lot walk towards the door carrying a 1911 with a home made silencer on it. He saw me draw my pistol and hold it behind my leg and he went an robbed the store next door with a fight and multiple shots fired. He is doing 17 years in the state pen now. The store is in a nice section of town and if you had told me that morning that I was going to be doing that I would have never believed it. You never know when you need it.

I think handguns give people a false sense of security. You are likely not going to ever pull the weapon. And if you do, you are not likely going to discharge it. And if you do, you are not likely going to hit anything. In the meantime, you put yourself and everyone around you at risk. I don't want that responsibility and choose not to carry.

Valid points. My level of training is very high so I am pretty comfortable in those situations. Shooting sports is probably my number one hobby or free time pursuit. I have LEO and military level training, have done extensive tactical training and do refreshers twice a year, and shoot probably 5000 rounds a year or more.

In fact, I would have to beg a home intruder for a "time out" so that I could open my gun safe and my ammo locker to shoot at him.

You would not be able to beg a home intruder for anything before he hosed you. I have a SW .40 sitting 18 inches from this lap top computer, and have close at hand all night. The gun safe is one number from opening with loaded long guns in there.

The only thing I have is an unloaded pump shotgun in my bedroom closet, which I would rack as loudly as I could if I heard someone in my house (as I then proceeded to hide in said closet).

Ahhh.. the old rack the shotgun analogy. An empty rack has a different sound that a loaded one, but tweakers probably not that smart. You have no intrusion alarm on your house ??? Simpli Safe bro...$ 500 gets you all the gear you need and $ 25 a month for monitoring no contract. Panic alarm buttons and all. Works good, I have set mine off several times opening my shop before deactivating.

Not cracking on your choices or commentary at all here 88. I respect you for having the carry permit, and having the weapons and guns you do, and for your careful assessment of your skills and mindset. I have a couple AR's as well, I on the contrary love shooting them. I also have a Ruger Mini 14 which is the same caliber .223 and capacity as an "assault rifle" but since it is in a rifle shape, it is not an "assault" rifle.

[Moving Sale]

I have a glock in a safe in a storage unit on my property. Client of mine gave it to me when he was convicted of a felony. A CO I know taught me how to shoot it. It sits in its safe unless we are overnight backpacking and cops and cell towers are miles away. I just don't see any other instance where having it out of the safe is safer than having it locked up.

[mvscal]

So...smackshisowndic, any more questions? Let's break it down one last time:

Shooting down from 400 yards into a brightly lit crowd of 20,000 people = Not that tough.
Shooting up at...fuck? You see anything? Where is it coming from? = pretty terrible idea

[smackaholic]

I'm watching foxnews. A "counter-terrorism expert" is talking about how this dickhead was plunking nearby "jet fuel" tanks. He says we are lucky a round didn't penetrate a tank or it would have exploded.

Sounds pretty foxnewsy. He might be a "counter-terrorism" expert, but a chemistry failure. Where does the oxygen come from in this "explosion"?

Gas cans don't explode when you shoot them (or so I've HEARD), and I believe gasoline has a lower flash point than kerosene (jet fuel).

And those tanks are pretty thick. Would take one hell of a gun (sup Weatherby) to penetrate a storage tank at 400 yards, I would think.

yeah, the flash point of jp-5 or 8 or whatever is somewhere between gasoline's and a block of concrete block. Prolly closer to the block. Found this out many year ago when I had to dispose of an old fuel oil tank. Tried bringing it there after just draining it. Dude said, can't take it. Too much oil in it. Take it home, sawzall it in two, and light it one. You will need A LOT of newspaper. Lighting that shit off is like trying to light a bucket of water on fire.

So, I went home, chopped it in two and fed it wadded up blazing newspaper for prolly 10-15 minutes before there was enough heat to vaporize something and get it going. Burned like a mofo once it started though.

I suspect today I could just post a CL free add and have a half dozen scrapper/tweakers fighting in my front yard over it.

[smackaholic]

So...smackshisowndic, any more questions? Let's break it down one last time:

Shooting down from 400 yards into a brightly lit crowd of 20,000 people = Not that tough.
Shooting up at...fuck? You see anything? Where is it coming from? = pretty terrible idea

i have seen about a bazillion shoots of the Mandalay now. The entire building is reflective glass panels, 'cept for the spot where there is two panes busted out. You should be able to get a general idea where an extended burst is coming from by the sound. You might see muzzle flash, might not. But I think a general sense of where the sound is coming from plus a busted out missing piece of this huge wall of mirrors might give you a pretty good idea where it is coming from.

Would plenty of round miss and hit a stray hooker or 3? BTW, the odds of it actually hitting a person in any of those rooms is very slim, unless you had a seriously awesome party going with say 70 or 80 hookers in a single room. This is the kind of people density you had on the ground and why he was as productive as he was.

88 makes a good point that iron sights in less than optimal light are worthless. So maybe you would need a scope. If you did have one, you could see your round strikes as you hit adjoining windows and likely get dialed in well enough to start putting rounds pretty much on target fairly quickly.

Would this be a perfect solution? Would it cause collateral damage?

WTF knows. One thing is for sure. In todays day and age, have mass gatherings of defenseless sheep is a bad idea. You can put up all the fukking fences you want, but the wolves will find a way to breach them. Best to scatter some sheep dogs among the flock.

You can damn well bet asshole muzzie terrorist and assorted other bags of shit are watching this and taking notes.

[Goober McTuber]

You just don't give up, do you? You are determined to prove beyond any reasonable doubt that you are THE stupidest motherfucker on the internet. Props.

[smackaholic]

All righty, smart guy, lets hear your ideas about how deal with such scenarios.

Do we ban outside gatherings?

Ban bump stocks?

If I understand the mechanics of how a bumpstock works, it is ridiculously easy to build your own.

Get rid of all semis?

It seems you have the ability to comment intelligently, on various alcoholic beverages, beyond that, nothing other than not particularly creative ways of saying you're a moron.

[smackaholic]

I am saying that a few dozen individuals, let's say 1 in a 1000 of a 22000 group, all firing at him with rifles will likely score some sort of hit fairly quickly. If they got off 1 shot every 5 seconds which is very doable, you are looking at 4-5 rounds per second. That is close to 300 rounds in a minute. That fukker is gonna know he's being shot at. His effectiveness is going to be curtailed.

Sure. If 1,000 dudes are pumping round after round in the general vicinity of the shooter, he is going to be compromised in terms of taking further shots. And yes, it is likely that someone would have capped his dome. 4-5 rounds per second is a bit much. Maybe like 1 or 2 rounds per 5 seconds, if they are aiming.

But if you have a thousand dudes blasting AR-15's at some bogeyman at the same time, wouldn't some of them likely mistake the others as the shooter, and start a melee that would be more dangerous than the dickweed on the 32nd floor of Mandalay Bay?

You misunderstood my comment about 4-5 rounds a second. Obviously you wouldn't get that rate of fire from a single shooter. You would get it cummulatively. I said 1 round every 5 seconds, gives ample time to reaim and fire.

Your point that a friendly fire incident could result is certainly a good one. In this case, however, I think it was fairly obvious within a short period of time where the threat was.

[Goober McTuber]

All righty, smart guy, lets hear your ideas about how deal with such scenarios.

Do we ban outside gatherings?

Ban bump stocks?

If I understand the mechanics of how a bumpstock works, it is ridiculously easy to build your own.

Get rid of all semis?

It seems you have the ability to comment intelligently, on various alcoholic beverages, beyond that, nothing other than not particularly creative ways of saying you're a moron.

A number of people have tried to explain to you much more nicely than I why your idea is patently ridiculous. But you insist on pushing it forward. You just can't let it go. Because you are a dimwitted fucktard.

The genie is already out of the bottle. You aren't going to gather up all of the guns, and if you tried, the guns that remained would be largely in the hands of criminals. I don't know much about bumpstocks other than Republicans in Congress are talking about banning them.

I've never needed to own a 50-round clip, but I know that it helps paranoid prepper freaks like Dohron sleep better at night. I do believe that gun shows should be subjected to the same background checks that retail gun shops deal with. I believe that people with serious mental issues should not be roaming the streets ('sup Mr. Reagan).

I don't believe there are any simple answers to the problem, but that doesn't mean I want to repeatedly hear the same simple-minded answer. Ban outside gatherings? Just as stupid as your first suggestion but less lethal. Ban semiautomatics? The damage in Vegas was done by fully automatic weapons, and they're already illegal.

I recognize that we live in dangerous times in times in terms of nutbags with guns. Hundreds of thousands of concerts are played each year with zero fatalities. And I prefer much smaller venues which are probably less likely to be targets. I try to pay attention to my surroundings, and refuse to live in fear. And the last thing we need is a bunch of citizens armed to the teeth who think they are Wyatt Earp.

[Goober McTuber]

I am saying that a few dozen individuals, let's say 1 in a 1000 of a 22000 group, all firing at him with rifles will likely score some sort of hit fairly quickly. If they got off 1 shot every 5 seconds which is very doable, you are looking at 4-5 rounds per second. That is close to 300 rounds in a minute. That fukker is gonna know he's being shot at. His effectiveness is going to be curtailed.

Sure. If 1,000 dudes are pumping round after round in the general vicinity of the shooter, he is going to be compromised in terms of taking further shots. And yes, it is likely that someone would have capped his dome. 4-5 rounds per second is a bit much. Maybe like 1 or 2 rounds per 5 seconds, if they are aiming.

But if you have a thousand dudes blasting AR-15's at some bogeyman at the same time, wouldn't some of them likely mistake the others as the shooter, and start a melee that would be more dangerous than the dickweed on the 32nd floor of Mandalay Bay?

You misunderstood my comment about 4-5 rounds a second. Obviously you wouldn't get that rate of fire from a single shooter. You would get it cummulatively. I said 1 round every 5 seconds, gives ample time to reaim and fire.

Your point that a friendly fire incident could result is certainly a good one. In this case, however, I think it was fairly obvious within a short period of time where the threat was.

And it's fairly obvious to anyone other than a weapons grade retard that even if they knew where the shooter was, under the circumstances they have a very slim chance of hitting him at that distance. But those bullets are going to land somewhere.

Maybe you should post your thoughts in the Vegas thread at .net. You would come across as one of the smarter ones. That Red Rover hosebag must be covered in tinfoil from head to toe.