Boxing fans-check out Ali in his prime

[Wolfman]

http://www.syracuse.com/poliquin/index. ... er_default

If you have a few minutes to kill and this link stays alive, see Ali at his best against Cleveland Williams. He may not have been the hardest puncher or toughest in taking punishment, but I don't think we've ever seen a heavyweight that could move like that and have that hand speed. Discussion?

[R-Jack]

I always thought Ali handled the punishment well.......at the time

[ChargerMike]

Big Cat was game but took a frightful pounding that night. Ali was the greatest, end of discussion, trust me on this one. Wolfie and I have seen them all since Jack Johnson.

[Dinsdale]

Wolfie and I have seen them all since Jack Johnson.

The horizon has been defeated.

[smackaholic]

what's really amazing is his ability to dance arounand never appear to break a sweat. his cardio was just amazing.

[Wolfman]

Yeah Ali could take it, but seldom did because he had lightning fast reflexes. Here is Chuck Wepner in 1975 dropping Ali like a sack of potatoes with a right to the body that would have downed an ox.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_92K8k31rU

[BSmack]

Tyson was a bully. Just like Liston. Ali in his prime would have wiped the floor with Tyson.

[mvscal]

A bully? Ooookay.

Tyson was a brawler. Ali was a boxer. IMO, it's no contest. Ali would have danced rings around Tyson, worn him out and finished him in 10.

[smackaholic]

Ali was just to quick and tall. Tyson would have never gotten close to him. Ormaybe he would have rope a doped him. If a young george foreman couldn't punch through his defense, nobody could.

[BSmack]

A bully? Ooookay.

Tyson was a brawler. Ali was a boxer. IMO, it's no contest. Ali would have danced rings around Tyson, worn him out and finished him in 10.

Tyson was the kind of animal that would pummel old ladies and steal their purses. But when fighters started standing up to him, he turned into the world's biggest pussy. THAT is why he's a coward and a bully.

[Mikey]

Big Cat was game but took a frightful pounding that night. Ali was the greatest, end of discussion, trust me on this one. Wolfie and I have seen them all since Jack Johnson.

Not just the greatest.

The Greatest OF ALL TIME

[Wolfman]

Just look at 1975. The Wepner fight was on March 24th and went 15 rounds. He next fought Ron Lyle on May 16th with an 11th round TKO. On June 30th he went 15 rounds against Joe Bugner for 15 rounds. Then he takes on Joe Frazier on October 1st which he won with a 14 round TKO. That's what I call a warrior, and I believe that was his prime. He was 33.
I agree that Ali would have taken Mike Tyson to school. However, I truly believe that Rocky Marciano in his prime would have been the fight I'd love to have seen.

[LTS TRN 2]

Ali was the fastest, no question. And by virtue of his Irish heritage he was arguably the most handsome. And make no mistake, this plays into a lot of good expert opinion on his being the Greatest of All time. But it's simply not true. First, while still in his prime he got his ass thoroughly destroyed by Frazier, period. Then he went on to get beaten and seriously injured by a muscle bound journeyman Ken Norton--who actually went on to beat Ali two more times despite the dreadfully flawed decisions. But of course Ali's greatest triumph came against the seemingly unbeatable George Foreman. Okay, he won a tough fight through skill and cunning (and loose ropes in a curiously small ring, at three in the morning). And even though Ali went on to a loooong and disgraceful later career of rope-a-doping a bunch of clowns and barely winning, the Foreman victory remains his greatest claim to being the Greatest. Well, as you know, in the sport of boxing it is standard to offer a rematch to a defeated champion. But of course Ali would just as soon have offered Foreman a rematch as he would have converted to Judaism. And why? After all, hadn't Foreman been exposed as an overrated thug? Hadn't he gone on to an astonishingly embarrassing stunt where he attempted to knock out ten (tomato can) fighters in a row? So...why wouldn't Ali fight him again? Here's why...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NmvPRP6NlA

This is Foreman vs Frazier 2 Just watch and realize what Ali must have thought watching it. Look at the speed, technique, and power of Foreman. Notice how he has distinctly improved since the last time he destroyed Frazier. At this point he is the Greatest of All Time. There is no fighter past or present who could have handled him here at all. Certainly not Ali.

[BSmack]

However, I truly believe that Rocky Marciano in his prime would have been the fight I'd love to have seen.

[smackaholic]

However, I truly believe that Rocky Marciano in his prime would have been the fight I'd love to have seen.

As soon as wolfie mentioned Marciano, I knew this wouldn't be far behind. Rack Eddie, one of the best old jewish dudes of all time.

[War Wagon]

an LTS post sans the tinfoil hat, and a sports take to boot. Nice.

while still in his prime he got his ass thoroughly destroyed by Frazier...

I won't get into any meaningless argument about who was the greatest boxer at whatever point in their career, but smokin' Joe was always my favorite.

[Van]

Considering the monumental troubles Ali had with Frazier, no, I don't think it's all that cut and dried that he would have wiped the floor with an in-his-prime, similar-size/style Tyson. When Tyson still had Cus D'Amato in his corner he was a decent bob-and-weave defensive fighter, a la Smokin' Joe. As Nick already alluded to, Ali also wasn't the least bit impressive in his 'wins' and losses against Norton, Leon Spinks...and Chuck Wepner...and Jimmy Young...and....

Ali probably does beat Tyson, but after seeing what Frazier did to Ali, hell, Tyson would have had a shot.

And let's not forget that Ali's greatest wins were the highly controversial Liston shams along with the nearly as inexplicable Foreman deal. Then there was the Long Count fight with Henry Cooper that likely spared him another loss.

Bottom line, by and large Ali didn't dominate too many fights. He was involved in quite a few wars, so he wasn't exactly blowing people out. A young Tyson was probably even more lethal than Frazier since he had more power in his right hand, to go with a nearly equally pulverizing left hook. He was more explosive and a stronger finisher than Frazier ever was, and had he landed one of those bombs...and we know Ali did get caught on occasion...yes, it could have happened.

[LTS TRN 2]

an LTS post sans the tinfoil hat, and a sports take to boot. Nice.

while still in his prime he got his ass thoroughly destroyed by Frazier...

I won't get into any meaningless argument about who was the greatest boxer at whatever point in their career, but smokin' Joe was always my favorite.

It's not a meaningless argument, wags. The New Pearl Harbor was the biggest crime in history, and for any rational person over the age of ten to accept the official story is itself a horrific default. As for boxing, Foreman achieved the highest level to date. No one could have beat him during that period. Don't bother to bother yourself with such details. Yours is a hijacked reality.

WAKEY WAKE (now more than ever)

[Wolfman]

Used to be a huge boxing fan before the advent of PPV. Watched many a fight on TV at my Grandfather's. Remember going to get some popcorn at the start of Marciano-Wolcott, only to return and find it was over. In college, 2 other guys and myself would watch all the TV fights. At one time there were Monday, Wednesday, and the famous Friday night fights. We each had little notebooks and would keep score. Got pretty good at it too, even the Nevada point system. Living in Ogdensburg NY I drove to Syracuse to see the closed circuit broadcast of the Patterson-Liston fight. It was over in the first round. I paid my $, drove for 6 hours round trip to see less than one minute of boxing. That soured me right away on that. I haven't paid other than my cable TV bill to see a fight since. What's cool today is You-Tube. It's like having "Greatest Fights of the Century" at your fingertips.

[Truman]

an LTS post sans the tinfoil hat, and a sports take to boot. Nice.

I think he had another one once about Earnie Banks in a discussion with Mace, but I could be mistaken. I was positive someone had swiped L-Tard's keys...

[smackaholic]

Considering the monumental troubles Ali had with Frazier, no, I don't think it's all that cut and dried that he would have wiped the floor with an in-his-prime, similar-size/style Tyson. When Tyson still had Cus D'Amato in his corner he was a decent bob-and-weave defensive fighter, a la Smokin' Joe. As Nick already alluded to, Ali also wasn't the least bit impressive in his 'wins' and losses against Norton, Leon Spinks...and Chuck Wepner...and Jimmy Young...and....

Ali probably does beat Tyson, but after seeing what Frazier did to Ali, hell, Tyson would have had a shot.

The video wolfie put up was prime time Ali from before he went to the klink. I believe all of the Ali/Frazier wars were after he got out. Don't get me wrong, he was still a hell of a fighter, but the blinding speed was gone. I think the post prison Ali vs Tyson in his prime would have been interesting, but, not sure who would win. And while Iron Mike may have had a speed power advantage over Joe, Joe had more heart than Tyson of thought of having. Dude was a straight up warrior.

And let's not forget that Ali's greatest wins were the highly controversial Liston shams along with the nearly as inexplicable Foreman deal. Then there was the Long Count fight with Henry Cooper that likely spared him another loss.

can't fault Ali for Sonny taking a dive. And yeah, I don't know how to explain the foreman thing other than to say it was a text book example of brains over brawn. I have no love for Ali, but, dude was one smart mofo back before his brain turned to pudding.

Bottom line, by and large Ali didn't dominate too many fights. He was involved in quite a few wars, so he wasn't exactly blowing people out. A young Tyson was probably even more lethal than Frazier since he had more power in his right hand, to go with a nearly equally pulverizing left hook. He was more explosive and a stronger finisher than Frazier ever was, and had he landed one of those bombs...and we know Ali did get caught on occasion...yes, it could have happened.

Yes Tyson had more matchups with tomato cans than Ali did.

[Van]

No doubt, but the fact remains that Ali's most impressive wins really weren't all that impressive. I'm sorry, but he made his fame off of three main things: 1. The Liston fights, which Liston threw. 2. The Foreman fight, which was so circumstantially rigged in Ali's favor as to be at least a little questionable, plus he never gave George a rematch. 3. The Frazier trilogy, none of which established Ali as too particularly dominant. Tough, absolutely, but not dominant. What Foreman did to Frazier, that was dominant.

Along the way, Ali was involved in just a fuckton of unimpressive fights, many of which he either lost or should have lost.

Now, doubtless he was better before he went into exile, but go ahead and name his truly impressive wins during that era. Please list for us all those big names he defeated. See, pretty much, it comes down to just one name, pre-Frazier: Sonny Liston.

Again, sorry. Not impressed. Then, post exile, what did he do? He won, he lost, he won again, he lost again...decision after decision after decision, many of which shouldn't have gone his way.

Ali was great, but I'm not even 100% certain that an in-his-prime Ali necessarily beats an in-his-prime Larry Holmes. I know that's considered blasphemy and all, but Holmes was a physical match for Ali while also being a whole lot smarter ring general than George Foreman ever was. Holmes' jab was just as lethal as Ali's, his reach was tremendous, he was every bit as big and rangy, and he was damn tough too. The guy was seriously underrated.

Ali in his prime was fast and crafty. Tyson in his prime was a force of nature, as was Frazier. Now, just imagine if Frazier had been as big as Ali and as powerful as Tyson. Iron Mike was heavier and stronger than Frazier, and much more vicious. Had he landed one of his usual bombs, there may not have been any need to demonstrate a Frazier-like toughness. Early in his career, damn, when Tyson hit someone, the guy stayed hit.

I'd probably give Ali about a 60% chance of winning. He'd be the favorite, but I wouldn't be shocked to see that evil little pitbull rage right through him. One thing is for certain: a young Tyson would not throw such a fight, the way Liston did. Ali would have had to take that fucker head on, weather the storm, and come out still standing. He probably manages it, but I wouldn't bet the house on it.

[LTS TRN 2]

Put a sock in it, you boring idiot.

Here's what's going on..

Hi, I've shaped your world these last ten years? Better off?


WAKE UP!

[smackaholic]

If you wytched that yourself, it would almost be funny.

Almost.

[Wolfman]

What's Rove's ring record and how did he get in here?

[BSmack]

What's Rove's ring record and how did he get in here?

Turd Blossom is a political Mike Tyson. He was on an epic win streak until somebody discovered in 2006 that it is possible to stand up to him. He's been a shell of himself since.

[ChargerMike]

If you have an hour check out the Ali vs. Spinks fight. This was a war, with Spinks giving Ali a pretty good pounding. The 15th. round has to be right up there with the best of all time. After 14 rounds of pounding both men found something left and went toe to toe the entire round. Great fight and worth the time to watch.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_531XoPrNQ

[smackaholic]

Don't feel like pissing an hour away, but, I did watch 15. Fukk, that was a war.