Hall of Fame Vote - No to Bonds, Clemens, Sosa

[Mace]

First off, R-Jack, you can go fuck yourself.

Secondly, yes, I'm referring primarily to the homerun hitters who broke records because they bulked up and shattered records because they were cheating, and knew they were cheating. They're also the players that are involved in the HoF discussions that you're hearing after the vote. They're not talking about some banjo hitter who mysteriously hit .325 one season but rather are talking about someone who hit 73 homers in one season. Maybe that's why I was directing my comments towards those guys, you ignorant fucking cunt.

The players that have been discussed regarding the HoF aren't going in this year and it's my hope that none of them ever get in. Period. You don't agree with me? Fine. Now, go fuck yourself again. If you want to discuss baseball without running all of the insults and smack, let me know. Otherwise....well, you know what you can do.

[R-Jack]

I know who and why you were directing your comments to you sniveling shitbag. The problem I have lies with you being to ignorant to grasp that the decision for a player to knowingly take shortcuts to achieve results, fame and fortune is not anything new to the game of baseball. It just seems to be a problem for you now because the records you like were broken.

As far as running smack in a baseball discussion....1-You lost old man? This isn't the baseball forum. 2- IIRC it was you who made mention of, albeit possibly accurately, of my lack of moral compass four posts into this thread. You went game on bitch and now want to wave the white flag just because you can't stop KYOA? Fuck that.

[Mace]

IAs far as running smack in a baseball discussion....1-You lost old man? This isn't the baseball forum. 2- IIRC it was you who made mention of, albeit possibly accurately, of my lack of moral compass four posts into this thread. You went game on bitch and now want to wave the white flag just because you can't stop KYOA? Fuck that.

My "moral compass" comment was directed at your comments regarding the HoF voting and nothing else. I don't know you and don't give two shits about your morals or personal life. This thread started out in the baseball forum, dumbfuck, and it probably should have stayed there, but didn't. You're obviously too fucking stupid to carry on a conversation about baseball anyway, so go fuck yourself and have a good time.

[Van]

the big records that were set in your formidable years.

Yet another worthy addition to T1B's Memes of Assfucked Words list. Nice.

what does doping do, dumbfukk? my understanding of it is that it just increases red blood cell count so you have higher aerobic capabilities. who the fukk on a baseball field needs increased aerobic capability?

Every player who spends time in the gym before ever hitting the field, that's who. 'Roids and especially HGH allow players to train harder, longer and more efficiently, thus enhancing every aspect of their on-field performance. They also allow players to recuperate more quickly which, in turn, allows them to work out that much more.

It gives them nearly the exact same type of advantage over a non-user that amphetamines give their users. Simply replace 'strength' with 'energy' and it's the same thing. The guy who has more energy will perform better than the guy who's dragging ass. Come the dog days of summer, you can be certain that such an advantage matters. Bottom line, if amphetamines didn't enhance a player's performance then why in the world were so many players using and abusing them?

Of course they gave their users an unfair competitive advantage, and of course their users were cheating just as blatantly and every bit as reprehensibly as performance-enhancing cheaters of any other stripe.

[R-Jack]

Call it what you want bitch. You are the one crying about me running smack despite your first response to me being....

It may have taken some of them 15 years to develop a moral compass but, unlike you, at least they developed one

You wanted to play and now you want to backpedal like a spineless twat. I guess it comes full circle since your act is taking cues from the writers you fawn over for taking this passive aggressive stand.

Save it. Your assertion that I don't want to talk baseball in this thread shows that you have clicking away like a mindless dolt without reading or absorbing a damn thing. I've been discussing baseball this whole time. If you weren't to busy trying to call me a moron while misreading what I wrote, you would've known that. You've spent the whole thread defending your short sighted and narrow minded point of view on cheating in baseball. A few people in this thread are talking baseball history showing you that there is a different perspective and all you've done is plug your ears and scream LALALALALALALALA. I'm not going to accept your opinion on my ability to engage in a conversation about baseball when you have failed so fucking miserably in conversation itself.

It's not my fault you are too dense to realize that you haven't have a problem with cheating till players got really good at it. But by all means, go on and cling to the fact that I may be a bigger asshole than you instead of actually realizing I'm the one that has been talking baseball to a brick wall.

[R-Jack]

the big records that were set in your formidable years.

Yet another worthy addition to T1B's Memes of Assfucked Words list. Nice.

It passed spellcheck for all intensive purposes.

[Mace]

Call it what you want bitch. You are the one crying about me running smack despite your first response to me being....

It may have taken some of them 15 years to develop a moral compass but, unlike you, at least they developed one

You're whining like a little bitch over that comment? Fuckin' pussy. I've already told you that the comment wasn't directed at your personal life, and yet your vagina is still bleeding about it? Your guilt ridden conscience is getting the better of you, dipshit. Take a break and go fuck yourself.

[LTS TRN 2]

There's no argument, it's just us. Of course the Roidsters can't enter--anymore than you. Look...you allowed it. So.?

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

what does doping do, dumbfukk? my understanding of it is that it just increases red blood cell count so you have higher aerobic capabilities. who the fukk on a baseball field needs increased aerobic capability? i suppose somebody hitting 5 triples in 10 minutes could use it, but, that doesn't happen too often.

You said doping didn't help hitters. Then why the fuck were they all doing it? You don't think the muscle enchancers that McGwire, Bonds, Sosa, etc., took that turned them into brick houses from ballplayers with average builds, allowed them to hit with more power and bat speed? Really? Those guys already had the swing. To that, they added the ability to consistently drive the ball out of the park. You don't think roids helped a pedestrian talent like Brady Anderson hit 50 bombs, or helped Brett fucking Boone blow up into a Gold's Gym looking freak and start jacking homers out of nowhere? Get the fuck out of here, moron.

[smackaholic]

what does doping do, dumbfukk? my understanding of it is that it just increases red blood cell count so you have higher aerobic capabilities. who the fukk on a baseball field needs increased aerobic capability? i suppose somebody hitting 5 triples in 10 minutes could use it, but, that doesn't happen too often.

You said doping didn't help hitters. Then why the fuck were they all doing it? You don't think the muscle enchancers that McGwire, Bonds, Sosa, etc., took that turned them into brick houses from ballplayers with average builds, allowed them to hit with more power and bat speed? Really? Those guys already had the swing. To that, they added the ability to consistently drive the ball out of the park. You don't think roids helped a pedestrian talent like Brady Anderson hit 50 bombs, or helped Brett fucking Boone blow up into a Gold's Gym looking freak and start jacking homers out of nowhere? Get the fuck out of here, moron.

I never questioned 'roids helping slappies turn into bombers. My statement was regarding doping. Then Van chimed in with an actual intelligent explanation. he brought up the training aspect which makes complete sensethat even a mouth breather like me can understand.

That's what's so cool about Van. He's got class and stuff in addition to being a wordy fukk. It's a breath of fresh air in this sewer.

Now fukk the fukk off.

Maybe the answer is to just say fuggit and let athletes do whatever the hell they want. They'd all be dead by 50, but, that would be the price they pay. It would make football especially entertaining knowing that there was a pertty good chance that you'd get to see some fukker killed on any given Sunday.

BTW, when did Mace decide to become the geriatric mvscal? it has been quite entertaining. Rack him, even if he is having his old ass handed to him by R-jack.

[smackaholic]

Brett retired in 1993, long before Viagara came around. He didn't need it then and if you've ever seen his hot ass wife, I doubt he needs it now.

Isn't Viagra actually distilled from Brett's urine?

no distillation necessary. That shit is potent enough right out of the tap. They are just sugar pills soaked in Brett's urine.

[R-Jack]

You're whining like a little bitch over that comment? Fuckin' pussy

Not only am I not whining, I already stated it may be an accurate assessment. I know you have shown an inability to read anything you responded to in this thread, but I'm hoping you can pull it together enough for you to read some of the things you wrote. Specifically the part where you started getting pissy about me hurling insults and running smack. Point blank, you were the first one to add some into the mix. Guess what dipshit.....that's quite OK. It's part of the game that brought us here. Well most of us. Apparently you're lost.

I've already told you that the comment wasn't directed at your personal life, and yet your vagina is still bleeding about it?

How the fuck have you been new to these boards for 13 years?

News flash you drooling waterhead......none of this is personal. Not you saying I have no moral compass. Not me saying you need a drug to surpass barely functioning retards in the game of life. None of it. Even things said about personal info offered up by others isn't directed at our personal lives. How in the name of VALVENIS and elgrande getting blown by Cuda have you been around this long and still barely grasp what we do (or used to do) here?

Get a few more posts under your belt noob and I'll explain what KYOA and IKYABWAI mean and how they applied to you in this thread. Maybe when you get your fingers out of your ears and stop screaming, we can talk some baseball too.

[Mace]

You undoubtedly know more about steroids and amphetimines in baseball than I do....I'll give you that, just like you know more about infidelity and divorce than me. Props to you.

Is it safe to assume that you think all of the steroid and amphetimine users who put up HoF numbers should be admitted? What about Pete Rose and Shoeless Joe? Same deal, or not?

[Van]

Pete Rose's situation is in no way similar to those of people who used PEDs. Pete should definitely be in because his HoF resume was built on his accomplishments as a player, not as a manager. At no time while he was a player was he ever accused of gambling, and he certainly wasn't convicted of betting on baseball during his playing days.

Otherwise, yes, unless you're also going to toss out all the other cheaters from the HoF then guys like Bonds and Clemens deserve to be there. Anyway, it's just a matter of time. They will both get in eventually. I think we all know this.

McGwire and Sosa? Nah. They put up HoF numbers only after they began blatantly 'roiding out. Neither were anything like HoF-caliber before they started juicing.

[Mace]

Agreed that the cases are not similar other than the fact they're denied entrance into the HoF due to their transgressions against the game. I just wondered how forgiving some of you might be.

I don't think Pete will get in during his lifetime but might after he dies. Depends on who might be Commissioner at the time. Personally, I wouldn't vote for Pete either. Shoeless Joe will never get in, imo.

I agree on Sosa, as he was pretty average before he started juicing and hitting for power. The last time I saw him at Wrigley he had 3 Ks, misjudged two balls in right field, and had no arm. The same was true with Bonds who, in his pre-juicing days was a great outfielder with a great arm. Not so after years of juicing.

McGwire had power as a rookie but started hitting more homers after he changed his swing in his second season. I don't know when he started using steroids as I didn't really follow his career very closely until he went to St. Louis.

[ucantdoitdoggieSTyle2]

McGwire and Sosa? Nah. They put up HoF numbers only after they began blatantly 'roiding out. Neither were anything like HoF-caliber before they started juicing.

Except for the part about McGwire hitting 49 HR in his first (full) MLB season , a rookie record that still stands, and being the first player to hit 30+ HR in his 1st 4 full seasons... ever, this take is spot on.

[Van]

McGwire and Sosa? Nah. They put up HoF numbers only after they began blatantly 'roiding out. Neither were anything like HoF-caliber before they started juicing.

Except for the part about McGwire hitting 49 HR in his first (full) MLB season , a rookie record that still stands, and being the first player to hit 30+ HR in his 1st 4 full seasons... ever, this take is spot on.

No way in hell McGwire goes to the Hall based solely on his pre-'roids days. Overall he wasn't putting up anything like HoF-career RBI/OPS/BA/Slugging % numbers; not for that era anyway. He was merely a slightly better Dave Kingman then.

[Van]

I wasn't all that impressed with Barry Bonds' pre-'roids arm. Seriously.

-Sid Bream

[Terry in Crapchester]

And I've never seen a player go to the plate so tired that he could barely keep his eyes open. They don't work in a salt mine, they're playing fucking baseball.

Maybe not, but amphetamines could make a difference between a runner on first getting to third or to second on an outfield single. That, in turn, could affect the outcome of the game.

Cheating is cheating. You said so yourself.

[Terry in Crapchester]

Does drinking 5 beers between tournament games count as cheating?

Sin,

Softball Guy

Mix in a few hotdogs, and you have my training regimen.

Sin,

Babe Ruth

[ucantdoitdoggieSTyle2]

No way in hell McGwire goes to the Hall based solely on his pre-'roids days.

I have no idea what year he started juicing. But. He holds the rookie record for most HR in a season and did something in his first 4 years that no HOF had done before him. Read that last sentence again. Out loud if you have to. McGwire did something in his first 4 years that no HOF had done before him.

In his 1st 4 years, he averaged more HR/RBI than he did for the rest of his career. Are you telling me 38 HR and 105 RBI per year doesn't make a player well on his way to being HOF worthy... because those are his numbers for 1987-1990.

It's not like the guy started out as a 15-20 HR per year guy, got all juiced up, then started blasting 50 HR with regularity.

[Van]

No way in hell McGwire goes to the Hall based solely on his pre-'roids days.

I have no idea what year he started juicing. But. He holds the rookie record for most HR in a season and did something in his first 4 years that no HOF had done before him. Read that last sentence again. Out loud if you have to. McGwire did something in his first 4 years that no HOF had done before him.

Great. That still wasn't going to be enough to get him into the Hall, not with the numbers he put up in subsequent years. All he did was hit HRs, and not on anything like a 500 HR pace. Until he began 'roiding out during his latter days in Oakland he was steadily spiraling downhill with injuries and a near total lack of production.

[ucantdoitdoggieSTyle2]

Until he began 'roiding out during his latter days in Oakland.

You have no idea exactly what year he started juicing. If it was 1991, then your take sucks serious ass. Moreover, McGwire admitted to taking steroids 'on and off for nearly a decade.' Seeing as how he retired in 2001, he surely began taking them in the early 90s. Maybe even 1991.

Regardless, he came out of the gate like gangbusters. You can't deny that. My whole point is that he was trending like a HOF very early on in his career. The numbers I posted back this up. For the last fucking time, McGwire did something in his first 4 years that no HOF had done before him.

Without the juice.

[Van]

Great. What about his subsequent years, pre- or post- 'roids? HoF careers are not built solely upon opening four-year spans. Following those first four seasons he was in no way a HoF player, not until he reignited his career through obvious juicing. Nearly every interview I've heard/read involving a HoF voting member concludes with the guy making this exact point as his reasoning for not including McGwire on his ballot.

Conversely, the majority of them have said that because Bonds and Clemens were clearly on their way to the Hall before ever juicing up, they will likely get in once the passing of time has softened the public's stance towards the Steroids Era.

[R-Jack]

For the last fucking time, McGwire did something in his first 4 years that no HOF had done before him.

Yeah.....struggle to hit .220

That may be speaking in extremes, but not too far off. His first four years were a downward arc. He was not playing himself into the hall from 89-91. Using those years to state any case to anyone who watched him play those years would get you laughed out of the building

[Dinsdale]

what does doping do, dumbfukk? my understanding of it is that it just increases red blood cell count so you have higher aerobic capabilities. who the fukk on a baseball field needs increased aerobic capability?

Every player who spends time in the gym before ever hitting the field, that's who. 'Roids and especially HGH allow players to train harder, longer and more efficiently, thus enhancing every aspect of their on-field performance. They also allow players to recuperate more quickly which, in turn, allows them to work out that much more.

And what, exactly, do roids and HGH have to do with blood doping?

Congrats on earning a giant :facepalm:, for offering expertise on something that you don't even know what it is.

[Dinsdale]

And to those of you talking about "pre-roids" Bonds...

You do realize he has former teammates that claim he started juicing his rookie year, right?

[Van]

what does doping do, dumbfukk? my understanding of it is that it just increases red blood cell count so you have higher aerobic capabilities. who the fukk on a baseball field needs increased aerobic capability?

Every player who spends time in the gym before ever hitting the field, that's who. 'Roids and especially HGH allow players to train harder, longer and more efficiently, thus enhancing every aspect of their on-field performance. They also allow players to recuperate more quickly which, in turn, allows them to work out that much more.

And what, exactly, do roids and HGH have to do with blood doping?

Congrats on earning a giant :facepalm:, for offering expertise on something that you don't even know what it is.

Didn't realize they were talking about the sort of doping cyclists use, since that's not what Bonds and the others are accused of, but be that as it may it doesn't change a thing. The point of that type of blood doping remains the same: to increase one's overall performance by enhancing one's ability to train, recuperate and endure.

[Dinsdale]

Didn't realize they were talking about the sort of doping cyclists use

So, when he refered to "blood doping," you naturally assumed he wasn't talking about "blood doping."


Cool story, bro.

[Van]

Since the discussion centered on Bonds, Clemens, McGwire and Sosa, nope, I didn't notice/pay attention to the 'blood' portion of "blood doping." Thought we we still talking about 'roids and HGH.

Not that it changes a thing. The reasons for doing any of them are the same: to gain an unnatural physical advantage.

[Rooster]

In regards to the photos of McGuire of him as a young man and then middle aged ball player, I don't know that we can use that as a guide for PEDs or HGH use. While I am not, nor ever was, remotely close to being a world class athlete (or even anything beyond a middling high school varsity in a small school-type athlete), I can relate to how time changes the size or physical dimensions of a man's body. In my 20's up until around age 26 I was scrawny, weighing in at around 135 pounds with no shoulder mass. Over the years (I am now 51) my physical size increased to where I am 200 pounds and far more muscular across the shoulders due to a specific focus in the gym on that area-- largely to draw attention away from my increased waist size, truth be told.

My point is, McGuire has the appearance of a typical young man in the picture on the left and what looks to me like a physique of a middle age world class athlete on the right. I am not doubting he used, only that giving a side-by-side comparison photo doesn't cut it for me, particularly when you look at Barry Bonds head size from his early pro years to when he retired. That's more convincing than what could readily be explained as normal bulk added with gym time and aging.

[Jay in Phoenix]

And to a realistic degree, that sort of enhancement may have kept the players more alert and wired, but the useage didn't help elevate a batting average or add distance to a home run, or velocity to a pitch.

Total horseshit. Increased focus will elevate your averages and decreased fatigue will add bat speed and pitch velocity. Those are what amphetamines are designed for. As players went from 154 to 162 games and train rides turned to plane rides, who is going to have the competitive advantage if all skills are equal? The guys using drugs to combat those fatigue factors or the one who is not. Pull your head out of your ass. It's the exact same argument as steroids.

Jeebus R-Jack, ease away from the resentment here. The point I was making wasn't that the use of amphetamines wasn't cheating. It was and still is. I said quite specifically that bennies made players more alert and kept them wired. And yes, this would give a player a competitive edge with increased concentration and energy. A number of baseball experts have expressed their opinion that amphetamines are in their own way, more damaging to the game than steroids. Maybe yes, maybe no. Steroids certainly do increase power numbers for hitters and velocity for pitchers. So to say that my comment was "total horeshit" is not only harsh, it's wrong. Bennies are not going to increase power, they increase focus and concentration. So they might help a player to 'see' the ball better, but they won't add strength. Same thing for pitching. The guy might have a sharper focus, but amphetamines aren't going to give the ball a more wicked spin or quicker release. So while it is a similar argument in that it involves cheating, bennies differ from steroids and HGH in the specifics of their function. They aren't going to increase strength or increase healing from injury.

But this whole thing is apples and oranges of cheating. And I sure as all fuck don't endorse either form. My contention is that the HOF has already inducted the players from the past and that bell can't be unrung. If the Hall ever wants to go backward and start cherry picking those players who speeded up out of their enshrinements, so be it. Cheating is cheating, no matter what form it takes. But I do agree with Mace that the level of cheating may merit different forms of punishment. If you plug steroids into your system, or drop a handful of greenies, you deserve to be suspended or banished. But if you jack up a baseball with a little spit or vaseline, or cut a little groove into it, smack the guy on the wrist and sit him down for a game or two.

I cannot see the Hall of Fame ever moving backward to erase the players already inducted who may or may not have taken greenies. How the hell would you prove it? Yes it was rampant and everyone knows it was widespread, but how would you point specific fingers unless the players themselves admitted to using. That isn't going to happen, not en masse anyway. That's why I say leave the past alone, accept it as a poisoned footnote and move forward. HGH and steroids can be tested for now, so use the tools of technology to make sure the past doesn't repeat itself.

The ones that are bestowed my tounge-in-cheek "moral compass", the BWAA, are just as guilty of the whole era. Instead of questioning what they saw going on, they went with the flow to the benefit of the sport they covered and in turn, their beat and their pay scale. For them to grandstand about a tainted era they suckled the teat of is hypocritical and pathetic.

Agree wholeheartedly. The hypocrisy is disgusting and the Writers cannot have it both ways. And therein lies the problem. The BWAA has been a preening joke for years now. It is an overstuffed and pompous group of fat, lazy, booze swilling, chain-smoking pretenders. Of course there are a number of solid, intelligent and unbiased journalists among them, but overall, that group needs to be blown-up and regenerated. For the writers who have turned a blind eye to the past and reaped any benefit from it, screw 'em.

You made a point about players not being able to have it both ways. Well the BWAA is having both ways. I say fuck 'em.

No era is untainted. It happened. Celebrate the greats of that era and tell the story accordingly.

Again, we agree. No era is untainted. Players drank, popped pills, got high and now they shoot up. So you're right, let's embrace the greats who did it the right way and let the records reflect history as best and as cleanly as they can. I just don't see the benefit from going backward and putting up a bunch of asterisks next to the names of suspected cheaters. Unless you can get a perfectly accurate and honest account of who used and who didn't, what's the point?

[Jay in Phoenix]

Jay that's the point some of us are making - that it's hypocritical to keep out the steroid cheats or those suspected but never proved. Since everyone in the era is under the same cloud you go back to the basis of why there is a hall of fame - to acknowledge on the field accomplishments. period.

Okay Scott, that's a perfectly reasonable rationale. It is hypocrisy to keep one group out while another from a different era reaps the accolades and recognition of their accomplishments. And the HOF should be ALL about what was accomplished on the field of play. The problem of course is that the damage has been done with the writers and the Hall, and like I said before, that bell cannot be unrung. So you move forward doing the best job possible to not repeat the past mistakes. And hypocrisy. You made a comment earlier that maybey they should just shut the Hall of Fame down for good. I couldn't tell whether you were being facetious or serious, but either way, what would something like that solve? Mistakes have been made, a lot of past cheating has been overlooked or ignored and it's a huge fucking mess.

That's why they are trying to rectify what they can now. Sure it's tainted with hypocrisy, but what other reasonable course is there? The asterisk route? Recognize the players who set records, accomplised feats worthy of rememberance and reverence, just so long as they have that star-shaped little footnote next to their bronze? Or just say 'screw it, let everybody in!' No, you have to draw the line somewhere and since the tools are in place to do the proper testing, use them and let history take care of itself.

You also said Scott, that they still aren't testing for HGH. Not true. Selig just announced the news here in Arizona that testing for Human Growth Hormone will begin this season. MLB.com/HGH Past sanctimony and hypocrisy aside, at least they are trying to make strides for now and for the future. If the past can't be rectified to the satisfaction of everybody (and I doubt seriously that there is any way to do that), at least let the present be the time of significant change for a brighter and cleaner future.

[mvscal]

Sure it's tainted with hypocrisy, but what other reasonable course is there? The asterisk route? Recognize the players who set records, accomplised feats worthy of rememberance and reverence, just so long as they have that star-shaped little footnote next to their bronze?

If they were all juiced or able to juice then the playing field is level, right? Same deal except even more so with Lance Armstrong and cycling.

I say....let em juice.

[R-Jack]

There was an amphetamine era in baseball Jay. Just because it wasn't scrutanized and was generally accepted doesn't mean it didn't happen. It happened because they improved performance. They kept players on the field and alert. It would be downright ignorant to assume they didn't improve performance. Of course they didn't work the same way as steroids, but it is the same argument as players were taking drugs to improve performance. Keep in mind that the popular opinion in baseball at the time was that weights were bad for your game. If there was a weightlifting culture in baseball back then, then the steroid era would've began in the early 60s. So steroids were not a drug of choice. Amphetamines were.

Records fell not because people used drugs, but because the drugs got better. You're right in that you can't go back and erase the past and for the reasons I have already stated an asterisk on roiders who broke the record of cranksters is pure hypocrisy, especially since the culture of drugs to gain an edge in baseball existed long before 1986. Like I said, take the best from that era and tell the story accordingly. Let it be up to the players if they want to be enshrined with the full historical context.

[Jay in Phoenix]

If they were all juiced or able to juice then the playing field is level, right? Same deal except even more so with Lance Armstrong and cycling.

I say....let em juice.

You got that right brother! Hellz yah!

[Jay in Phoenix]

That was very well said R-Jack and I agree 100 %. And in no way am I saying what has already gone down with the Hall for the players from the bennies era is okay. Amphetamines absolutely improved performances and as I mentioned, there are doctors and baseball writers who believe that the use of uppers was far more detrimental to the game than the steroid and HGH use today. YahooSports.com and Daily News both site amphetamine use as the biggest corruption of baseball statistics.

If players themselves want to let their enshrinement be embellished with full disclosure in regards to the past, present and future, I'm okay with that. The Hall of Fame should remain in place. Cooperstown and the other institutions of sports, records and statistics are needed by both players, fans and the media. They give history and context to their individual sports. Without historical record, there is no relevance for what we are watching today and what future fans will appreciate tomorrow. It's a damn shame that so many players felt the need to alter themselves and the game for some twisted perception of greatness. Henry David Thoreau once said, "There is no odor so bad as that which arises from goodness tainted."

Of course, Georges Bataille said, "Pleasure only starts once the worm has got into the fruit, to become delightful happiness must be tainted with poison."

So there is that.

[Dinsdale]

Yes, amphetamines increase alertness, awareness, and coordination.

That's why the FAA encourages airline pilots to use them.

Some of you should apologize for being stupid.

[Biggie]

Some of you should apologize for being stupid.

[Truman]

Henry David Thoreau once said, "There is no odor so bad as that which arises from goodness tainted."

Forreal?! Man, that cat be trippin'...

/s/