Hall of Fame Vote - No to Bonds, Clemens, Sosa

[Go Coogs']

Pedro Gomez was on SC a few minutes ago basically saying he is voting based on the eye test. So, if he just suspects the guy used, then he doesn't get Pedro's vote.

I'm sorry, but these writers are trying to play God and they can't. The BBWA is fucked up.

[Mikey]

No players elected this year, for the first time since 1996.

Bonds and Clemens would both be shoo-ins based on their stats if not for the PED issue. Neither one of them even got 40% of the 75% required.

[Mace]

No players elected this year, for the first time since 1996.

Bonds and Clemens would both be shoo-ins based on their stats if not for the PED issue. Neither one of them even got 40% of the 75% required.

Yep. Props to the writers who left them off of their ballots.

[R-Jack]

Yep. Props to the writers who left them off of their ballots.

Same writers who looked past all the bacne and bottles of andro in the locker rooms to run up and gargle McGwire and Sosa's ballsacks and fawn over how they "brought back baseball"? Yeah, props on waiting 15 years to develop a moral compass.

[smackaholic]

I suspect that since at least the 50s, they have been taking whatever was available at the time. They just didn't do anything about it until the roids got so good that it became obvious. These guys should get in.

[smackaholic]

btw, i doubt doping would help anyone other than possibly a pitcher as it is something that allows freakish cardiovascular performance. not likely to matter to a dude who spends 99.8 percent of the game standing waiting for something to happen.

[Mace]

Yep. Props to the writers who left them off of their ballots.

Same writers who looked past all the bacne and bottles of andro in the locker rooms to run up and gargle McGwire and Sosa's ballsacks and fawn over how they "brought back baseball"? Yeah, props on waiting 15 years to develop a moral compass.

It may have taken some of them 15 years to develop a moral compass but, unlike you, at least they developed one in time to keep these assholes out of Cooperstown.....for now anyway.

[R-Jack]

It may have taken some of them 15 years to develop a moral compass but, unlike you, at least they developed one in time to keep these assholes out of Cooperstown.....for now anyway.

While I won't dispute my lack of morals, I can take comfort in knowing I'm consistently a jerk. You want to laud those fucktard writers for using their vote as a soapbox for the sanctity of the game despite the fact they chose to dine on shriveled up roider cock instead of questioning what they were seeing like actual journalists because they wanted to ride the wave and get an ESPN gig for it.....be my guest. I'll just call it like I see it and recognize those spineless hypocrites for what they are. Even more so after the roiders all get in eventually like you alluded to.

[Mace]

Bonds, Sosa, McGwire, Clemens, et al, got rich and set records because they cheated, and there are consequences for that. They violated the integrity of the game, the same as Pete Rose and the Black Sox, and being denied induction into the HoF is one of those consequences....and should be. They sold their souls to the devil for wealth and fame and now it's judgment day. Whether they ever get into the Hall will be up to the writers but, as for me, I'd never vote for any of them. They've still got their money but they lost their integrity long ago and should not be rewarded for that.

[Jay in Phoenix]

What is the argument here? If you cheat and you get caught, ballgame over. I was a big fan of McGwire while he was on Cardinals, yet once it got out that he used performance enhancers, his eligibility for a HOF induction became moot. His numbers would never have been what they were without cheating. On the other hand, Bonds already had Hall of Fame numbers, but chose to 'roid it up out of spite and jealousy and ego. Bang, he's out now too. Same for Sosa and the rest of the steroid class.

While I don't share the same level of venom Mace feels towards the group, I concur with his sentiment and that of the baseball writers in the denial of their votes. Screw the cheaters. KC Scott alluded to the bennies of the '60 & '70's. The use of uppers was rampant throughout the era, but you can't go back in time and erase what has already gone down in the Hall. And to a realistic degree, that sort of enhancement may have kept the players more alert and wired, but the useage didn't help elevate a batting average or add distance to a home run, or velocity to a pitch. And what's done is done.

Move forward with hindsight and allow the moral compass to point in the right direction, 15 years after the fact or not.

[ucantdoitdoggieSTyle2]

The fact of the matter is, MLB banned steroids in 1991. Sure it wasn't tested for until 2003, but it was 'against the rules.' And if someone got caught taking them (post 1991) or admitted to taking them (like McGwire), then I don't have an issue with them not getting to the HOF. They broke the rules of the game, plain and simple. However. What are we going to do about other known cheaters like Gaylord Perry? Kick him out?

[Mace]

The fact of the matter is, MLB banned steroids in 1991. Sure it wasn't tested for until 2003, but it was 'against the rules.' And if someone got caught taking them (post 1991) or admitted to taking them (like McGwire), then I don't have an issue with them not getting to the HOF. They broke the rules of the game, plain and simple. However. What are we going to do about other known cheaters like Gaylord Perry? Kick him out?

There were/are rules in place to take care of spit ballers and they were enforced on a pitch by pitch, game by game basis for Perry and any other pitcher who scuffed or loaded up the ball. It's apples and oranges. Possessing steroids without a prescription is a criminal offense.....applying vaseline to a baseball isn't.

[Mikey]

I would say that in many sports, at least at the top levels of competition, it is impossible to compete without some sort of enhancements going on. Witness cycling. Witness LTS Tard posting stupid shit, he Must being doing some sort of drugs.

Are you saying that LTS is at the top level of posting?

I realize that T1B is pretty much the major leagues of posting but, extending that analogy, his quality is sort of comparable to the Mendoza line.

[Mace]

All we're missing in this thread is Nostra chanting "SHOELESS JOE! SHOELESS JOE! SHOELESS JOE!"

[Mace]

I would say that in many sports, at least at the top levels of competition, it is impossible to compete without some sort of enhancements going on. Witness cycling. Witness LTS Tard posting stupid shit, he Must being doing some sort of drugs.

Are you saying that he's at the top level of posting?

I realize that T1B is pretty much the major leagues of posting but, extending that analogy, his quality is sort of comparable to the Mendoza line.

Oh, I'd say that LTSTard is hitting well below .200 lifetime, Mikey, and should pitching in the American League.

[ucantdoitdoggieSTyle2]

Possessing steroids without a prescription is a criminal offense.....applying vaseline to a baseball isn't.

I really don't care what law they broke... only what rule they didn't abide by.

People who doctored baseball gave themselves an unfair advantage over their opponents, just like the people who were juicing verses the people who were not.

To me, it's all about the competitive advantage they both got by 'cheating'.

[Mace]

Possessing steroids without a prescription is a criminal offense.....applying vaseline to a baseball isn't.

I really don't care what law they broke... only what rule they didn't abide by.

People who doctored baseball gave themselves an unfair advantage over their opponents, just like the people who were juicing verses the people who were not.

To me, it's all about the competitive advantage they both got by 'cheating'.

Yes, it's about the competitive advantage but, in the case of a spit ball, the pitcher can be ejected when he throws one and gets caught. Not so with steroids unless they're testing hitters before every game/at bat, which won't happen. They're both against the rules of the game with one being enforced under the umpire's discretion with every pitch and the other requiring testing in a lab. It's apples and oranges.

[ucantdoitdoggieSTyle2]

McGwire never failed any test. He retired before testing ever began. So technically, he never got caught breaking the rules. Additionally, there wasn't any actual language in MLB's rulebooks about what to do with people who were using this banned substance until testing began. If you want to split hairs about what umpires could/couldn't do about people who doctored baseballs/people who juiced, that's fine.

The bottom line is, both sets of people made a career out of spitting in the face of the integrity of the game. They cheated. People knew they were cheating. And no one really gave two shits about it.

I say, fuck 'em both.

[Mace]

I'm not spitting hairs. It's two totally different issues. One is under the control of an umpire during a game, the other clearly isn't. They shouldn't be treated the same as it pertains to induction to the HoF because they're unrelated other than both being against the rules. Punishment imposed for a speeding ticket should not be the same as the penalty for murder.

[R-Jack]

And to a realistic degree, that sort of enhancement may have kept the players more alert and wired, but the useage didn't help elevate a batting average or add distance to a home run, or velocity to a pitch.

Total horseshit. Increased focus will elevate your averages and decreased fatigue will add bat speed and pitch velocity. Those are what amphetamines are designed for. As players went from 154 to 162 games and train rides turned to plane rides, who is going to have the competitive advantage if all skills are equal? The guys using drugs to combat those fatigue factors or the one who is not. Pull your head out of your ass. It's the exact same argument as steroids.

Move forward with hindsight and allow the moral compass to point in the right direction, 15 years after the fact or not.

Is it really? The ones that are bestowed my tounge-in-cheek "moral compass", the BWAA, are just as guilty of the whole era. Instead of questioning what they saw going on, they went with the flow to the benefit of the sport they covered and in turn, their beat and their pay scale. For them to grandstand about a tainted era they suckled the teat of is hypocritical and pathetic. You made a point about players not being able to have it both ways. Well the BWAA is having both ways. I say fuck 'em.

No era is untainted. It happened. Celebrate the greats of that era and tell the story accordingly.

[R-Jack]

I'm not spitting hairs. It's two totally different issues. One is under the control of an umpire during a game, the other clearly isn't. They shouldn't be treated the same as it pertains to induction to the HoF because they're unrelated other than both being against the rules.

Both are using artificial means to gain a competitive advantage. Do you hate cheating........or do you just hate steroids?

[Mace]

I'm not spitting hairs. It's two totally different issues. One is under the control of an umpire during a game, the other clearly isn't. They shouldn't be treated the same as it pertains to induction to the HoF because they're unrelated other than both being against the rules.

Both are using artificial means to gain a competitive advantage. Do you hate cheating........or do you just hate steroids?

I hate cheating.....but the game and the umpires have control over the guys that get caught doctoring a ball, corking their bat, or stealing signs. Guys on roids escape the scrutiny of umpires.

And, btw, steroids and amphetimines aren't the same thing and don't have the same results for those that use them. Steroids turned Sammy Sosa, a very average player, into a homerun hitting machine. Amphetimines don't do that. The sad thing for Bonds is that he didn't need steroids to gain entrance into Cooperstown.

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

btw, i doubt doping would help anyone other than possibly a pitcher

Of course you doubt it. You're a fucking moron.

[BSmack]

Steroids turned Sammy Sosa, a very average player, into a homerun hitting machine. Amphetimines don't do that.

I was told by Hall of Fame Voters at the time that Sosa's metamorphosis was due to his new found plate discipline, not the fact that he gained 50 lbs of muscle mass in like 2 years. They are lazy hacks who value their access far more than sticking their neck out.

But yea. Even with the juice, Sosa was nothing more than a gigantic roided up version of Dave Kingman. So he's out.

The sad thing for Bonds is that he didn't need steroids to gain entrance into Cooperstown.

Which is why he should go in. Of course his positive tests should be noted and his awards earned pre-juicing should be on the plaque. Nothing after his head started to balloon should be on the plaque. Problem solved.

[R-Jack]

I hate cheating.....but the game and the umpires have control over the guys that get caught doctoring a ball, corking their bat, or stealing signs. Guys on roids escape the scrutiny of umpires.

So cheaters are ok to be in the HOF, as long as the umpires are incompetent?

And, btw, steroids and amphetimines aren't the same thing and don't have the same results for those that use them. Steroids turned Sammy Sosa, a very average player, into a homerun hitting machine. Amphetimines don't do that. The sad thing for Bonds is that he didn't need steroids to gain entrance into Cooperstown.

No one said they work the same way you obtuse asshat. They were used to gain a competitive advantage just like steroids. The increased focus and decreased fatigue present the opportunity to hit more home runs, just like the strength increase from roids increases bat speed. Different effects but similar results. Every example you have used for steroids (illegal, undetectable to the umps, etc.) can be, and should be, applied to amphetamines.

Just because you aren't smart enough to accept it doesn't mean it's different.

[Mace]

Amphetimines don't increase bat speed, moron, steroids do. Amphetimines might help you stay awake but they're not going to perceptably enhance your performance. Henry Aaron did not ever resemble the physical appearance of Barry Bonds or Sosa.....except in their pre-roid days.

Gaylord Perry didn't throw a vaseline ball on every single pitch but a juicer is juiced every pitch of every inning.....and Perry was ejected from the game whenever he was caught.

[smackaholic]

btw, i doubt doping would help anyone other than possibly a pitcher

Of course you doubt it. You're a fucking moron.

what does doping do, dumbfukk? my understanding of it is that it just increases red blood cell count so you have higher aerobic capabilities. who the fukk on a baseball field needs increased aerobic capability? i suppose somebody hitting 5 triples in 10 minutes could use it, but, that doesn't happen too often.

[ucantdoitdoggieSTyle2]

One is under the control of an umpire during a game, the other clearly isn't.

So just because dude was either really good at cheating or the umpires didn't seem to give a shit, that makes it okay? The fact is, doctoring a ball defined Perry's career, just like steroids defined Sammy Sosa's. It's safe to say, there would have been a substantial drop in both player's statistics had they not cheated their whole careers. So really, what's the difference here?

The act of cheating made each player what he was. End of story...

[War Wagon]

I'm just glad George Brett came along before any of this bullshit about PED came about. He truly earned his spot in the HoF. Dude would stay out until 3 in the morning closing bars and nailing skanks in every city he played in and then go 4 for 5 the next day.

[Mace]

One is under the control of an umpire during a game, the other clearly isn't.

So just because dude was either really good at cheating or the umpires didn't seem to give a shit, that makes it okay? The fact is, doctoring a ball defined Perry's career, just like steroids defined Sammy Sosa's. It's safe to say, there would have been a substantial drop in both player's statistics had they not cheated their whole careers. So really, what's the difference here?

The act of cheating made each player what he was. End of story...

No one said it was okay to doctor the ball.....probably why it's been against the rules since the 30's....and the reason Perry didn't get caught more often had little, if anything, to do with the incompetence of the umpires and far more to do with his not throwing very many, if any, illegal pitches during the course of the game. There's no doubt that he used his reputation as an advantage in every game he pitched but it doesn't mean he was throwing any illegal pitches, even if the hitters thought that he was doing it. Lots of pitchers scuff or otherwise doctor the ball. Whitey Ford was one of the best at scuffing the ball with his belt buckle while others used emory boards. Hardly the same thing as juicing up to make you throw harder or gain bat speed.

[Mace]

I'm just glad George Brett came along before any of this bullshit about PED came about. He truly earned his spot in the HoF. Dude would stay out until 3 in the morning closing bars and nailing skanks in every city he played in and then go 4 for 5 the next day.

Other than the illegal pine tar on his bat, you're right.....although he was undoubtedly popping speed to keep up his bar hopping schedule and viagra to keep his dick up.

[ucantdoitdoggieSTyle2]

Mace -- he wrote a booked called Me And The Spitter in 1974. If you care to google it, I am sure you can find links to shitloads of stories... like this:


“He'd… (touch) his cap or his sleeve, either loading up the ball or trying to convince batters he was doing so… Perry's catcher… said the ball was sometimes so loaded he couldn't throw it back to the mound ("Biggest cheaters" n.d.).”

[War Wagon]

Brett retired in 1993, long before Viagara came around. He didn't need it then and if you've ever seen his hot ass wife, I doubt he needs it now.

[Mikey]

Brett retired in 1993, long before Viagara came around. He didn't need it then and if you've ever seen his hot ass wife, I doubt he needs it now.

Isn't Viagra actually distilled from Brett's urine?

[R-Jack]

Amphetimines don't increase bat speed, moron, steroids do.

Can you get through a discussion today without KYOA? Just wondering.

The increased focus and decreased fatigue present the opportunity to hit more home runs, just like the strength increase from roids increases bat speed.

If you can't even accurately grasp the simplest of text, you need to bail.

Amphetimines might help you stay awake but they're not going to perceptably enhance your performance.

Wait. The guy who is awake and alert does not have a distinct performance advantage over the guy who is sleepy and groggy? Tell me more, oh wizard of dumbfuckary.

Seriously, you have shown no ability to accurately process the counter points given to you, let alone actually read the words on your screen. Until they come out with a PED that can give you a performance advantage over barely functioning retards, get your in-home care provider to re-read this thread to you if you want to continue discussing this matter.

[Mace]

Have you got a link to any studies that show amphetimines help a hitter gain power and hit homeruns? If not, sit down and shut the fuck up.

I'm not denying that players have taken amphetimines but you're an ignorant fucking moron if you think they help someone hit homeruns.

[Mace]

What do you think is more important - Bat speed or seeing the ball?

Obviously, they're both important. Dumb fucking question.

The beanies absolutely would help a tired player see the ball to generate the bat speed

Seeing the ball has nothing to do with bat speed. Tell me you knew. And I've never seen a player go to the plate so tired that he could barely keep his eyes open. They don't work in a salt mine, they're playing fucking baseball.

[War Wagon]

Brett retired in 1993, long before Viagara came around. He didn't need it then and if you've ever seen his hot ass wife, I doubt he needs it now.

Isn't Viagra actually distilled from Brett's urine?

well, he was a fucking God... but I doubt that he could piss that much.

[Go Coogs']

R-jack nailed it. Let me add to it by pointing out the oddity of Griffey falling 5 home runs short of the record in '97 and then all of a sudden Sosa and McGwire obliterate Maris' record by 9 dingers. The progression is an anomaly if you consider the era beginning in 1991 and ending in 2006. I honestly think it wasn't just the roids. I really do believe MLB had the balls manufactured to travel farther that season. I know I sound like LTS right now, but its something to consider when the progression spiked like it did.

And as R-Jack stated, one year the writers are oozing at the majestic shots off the bats of Sosa and BigMac and then two seasons later their trashing these same guys for being cheats. Funny how getting caught up in the moment can cloud the BBWAA's judgement so easily. Same can be said about the current voting results.

[R-Jack]

Mace,

Going into this thread I thought you were just being short-sighted. Then I thought you were being obtuse. Then I thought you were just a fucking idiot. At this point I'm convinced you are stealing takes from KC Paul and not the ones he stole from someone smarter than him.

The conversation is about using substances to gain an advantage in performance. Your feeble mind can't get past the cavemen grunts of "ME MACE. ME NO LIKE BIG MEN THAT HIT BALL FAR. MACE BOO!!!!"

I can't help you don't want to use common fucking sense. I don't need to see a scientific study to see that steroids help hit home runs. They help player work out harder and longer, leading to more muscle and more bat speed which in turn leads to a probability the player can hit more home runs than he could before. I doubt there has been a study linking steroids to home runs like one you are clamoring for with Amphetamines. There doesn't need to be one for me because I use common fucking sense.

Now try applying common fucking sense to Amphetamines. They weren't in the locker rooms because they tasted better than M&M's dipshit. They were there, provided by the ballclub themselves, because they kept you awake and alert. If you’re able to focus, you are able to see the ball better. If you’re more alert, you are able to pick up the pitch quicker. If you are not fighting fatigue, you are able to generate more bat speed. You see how those factors are able to help a player put a better swing on the ball? You think a player who has the advantage of a pill that keeps them more alert, focused and energized can hit more home runs than he could otherwise? You don't need a study you bag of ignorance. Use some common fucking sense.

Now get past your obsession with home runs and big hulking men for a sec and understand that I said all along those Amphetamines were used to assist in every aspect of the game, not just the homers you seemed to be obsessed over. Being able to react to a fly ball faster. Focusing your body in the eighth inning to hit the outside black. Having enough energy to stay in a crouch and catch pitches for 3 hours. The common fucking sense test would tell you that Amphetamines were used as a performance enhancing drugs, just like steroids.

So why aren't greenies met with the same scorn as 'roids? I mean, when players were cranked out, they were cranked out every pitch of the game. You used that same horseshit argument about steroids vs. other forms off cheating like scuffing or greasing the ball. You even said that you have no doubt that players were using Amphetamines. The only thing that is keeping you from endorsing one form of cheating(greenies) over another(roids) is either your lack of desire or your flat out inability to apply common fucking sense.

This goes back to my earlier question. Do you hate cheating or just hate steroids? It seems pretty obvious since you keep trying to spin or misread my quotes into a discussion about home runs and size as opposed to improved performance and your quest to discredit every form of cheating that doesn't fit your narrow ass mindset. Seriously, you only seem to be butthurt over the type of cheating that broke the big records that were set in your formidable years. I would suggest there is something deeper at work with your stance here, but you have shown no capability in this thread of being very deep, up to and including thought.