I have recently decided to quit living in fear

[Terry in Crapchester]

Hitler was in no way , shape or form a Christian.

To the extent you're arguing that he failed to follow the teachings of Christ, I agree. Then again, the same could be said about today's Republican Party, their protestations to the contrary notwithstanding.

dinsdalianism-opiate of the closing time obese bar skank.

Okay, who stole smackaholic's password? That one was actually worth a chuckle.

[smackaholic]

No one.

Who hijacked your cerebrum?

Or is it cerebelum?

guess i'll stick with civics and leave anatomy alone.

[smackaholic]

Hitler was in no way , shape or form a Christian.

To the extent you're arguing that he failed to follow the teachings of Christ, I agree. Then again, the same could be said about today's Republican Party, their protestations to the contrary notwithstanding.

No theology expert here, like pahtah, but, didn't christ say that charity should come from the individual, of his own free will and not from the end of a tax collector's gun?

[Felix]

No prob, sig The mormons

that's already been addressed by our resident bible quoting born again....

Romney will never be acceptable...
...He's not a Christian.

ELIMINATED

sucks to be starving kids or mormon...the only thing that would suck worse is if you were a starving child that was a mormon....

[Felix]

How the hell could a Mormon be any scarier than some Christian prez who decides to help god speed up the end of the world?

mormons are for the most part pretty harmless....having spent way too much time around them, I'm convinced that a large majority of them recognize they are members of a cult that simply got out of hand...

i think a lot of them are simply too proud to admit it....

[bradhusker]

Hitler was in no way , shape or form a Christian.

To the extent you're arguing that he failed to follow the teachings of Christ, I agree. Then again, the same could be said about today's Republican Party, their protestations to the contrary notwithstanding.

dinsdalianism-opiate of the closing time obese bar skank.

Okay, who stole smackaholic's password? That one was actually worth a chuckle.

Really Terry? Today's republican party? WRONG AGAIN Terry, nice try. This will be easy.

Mitt Romney gives some 7 million dollars to various charities, that, guess what? Feed the poor, clothe the poor, give medicine to the poor...etc....etc....

WOW!!! suddenly you look like a FOOL!!!!

I am a member of a large southern baptist church, GUESS WHAT? a lot of the members are republicans, who, GUESS WHAT? Give generously to charities which give to the POOR!!!
George W. BUSH, the former republican president of the United States? GUESS WHAT FOOL?
G W gave 50 BILLION in money and aid to the poorest of the poor in Africa. WOW, I guess stupid Terry didnt realize this? WOW, you are a complete clown.

By the way, that 50 billion in aid that G W the republican gave to the poorest of the poor? It was more than any president in history, including the democrat clinton.

SO, the modern republican party? HUH Terry sissy boy?

GOD that was way too easy making you look like a retard.

[bradhusker]

but I do know that it is not an "intrinsic trait".

it most certainly is....when the first humans developed, they learned pretty quickly that working cooperatively was much more successful for survival than going it alone.....many animals demonstrate the same cooperative behaviors, and demonstrate what we would term to be "moral" behavior....capuchin monkeys cooperatively share food and demonstrate "moralistic" behaviors such as ostracizing group members that treat others among the groups unfairly....other species demonstrate "moral" behaviors such as empathy, reciprocity, altruism etc. and these sorts of behaviors aren't limited to monkey's and apes...these types of "moral" behaviors are demonstrated by wolves, coyotes, elephants, whales, dolphins, hyenas, rats, mice and countless other species that live in cooperatives.....

so do animals have "morals"? they certainly demonstrate behaviors that we would consider to be "moral"? so where do these "morals" come from?

You brought up the concept of "forgiveness?" that is a concept that you know nothing about, the person has to want forgiveness, truly want and desire it, be broken about his sin, on bended knee. with a heart open to receive it.

Hitler NEVER in his life came to that point

and you know this how? how do you know that right before he died he didn't accept jesus christ as his savior and according to christian mysticism isn't residing at the right hand of god right now, while the millions of jews he killed are all burning in hell because they never accepted christ as their savior....well of course, there's going to have to be some "get out of jail free cards" that can be extracted from the bible...

what about children who starve to death without ever having the chance to "find christ"? christers throw up their hands and say such things as "I don't know what god's plan for them is", yet they can say assuredly that I'm going straight to hell....

yeah, christian mysticism is a pretty fucked up system

Nice try felix, So let me get this straight, you think that when the russians the USA and the allies were closing in on a mass murderer, that somehow, he got down on his knees and was ready for forgiveness?
BUWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, felix , are you a retard?

The man is the ULTIMATE coward. Hitler gave orders to cut open pregnant women , and perform experiments on them.
Hitler gave orders to cut open children, kill children, torture children, sexually molest children.
This is a matter of history, The SS performed all sorts of grisly experiments on human beings.
They said later that they "Were just following orders", end quote.

Now, I am pretty sure that felix will try and deny what I just said. I am pretty sure that Felix is a coward just like Bill Mahr. BUT, to educated posters in this forum? Hitler went down like a true little coward.

NOW, I am also sure that Felix doesnt know the meaning of the word "coward".
A coward is one who abuses, tortures, kills, and does unspeakable acts to women and children.
It is publically well documented in history, that the Nazis did all this to innocent and weak human beings. Most notably women and children. They were ordered to do this from the top down.
History does not record Hitler trying to wave a flag of surrender or asking for forgiveness of any kind.
ONLY in the warped sick mind of FELIX, can we see Hitler trying to make ammends. ONLY in the warped sick mind of Felix can we see Hitler as a true and loving christian.

Felix, if I were you, I'd seek the help of a mental health professional, ASAP.

[Van]

Is bradhusker the worst poster in the history of this board?

I'm starting to think he is. In terms of him being a troll, he's repetitive, childishly annoying, and simply not worth reading. Excepting maybe the little starving black kid who always wants to know where his mammy is, or those painfully horrible Bobby Da Boss w.i.g.g.e.r trolls, bradhusker is definitely the shittiest Character Troll we've ever seen.

Now if he really isn't a troll and actually means this shit, as Mgo believes, then that would at least be marginally less offensive. To think that someone would intentionally create this stupid of a persona is the worst thing of all. Coming to terms with the realization that this monkey is just uniquely afflicted would be much easier to take. Hey, if it's not his fault, it's not his fault.

I don't buy it. The guy is trolling, and any mind that would willingly spew this garbage on a daily basis is in need of some serious pharmaceutical distractions. Bare minimum, the damn doctors need to finish the lobotomy.

[mvscal]

it most certainly is....when the first humans developed, they learned pretty quickly that working cooperatively was much more successful for survival than going it alone.....

You are, quite simply, full of shit. Obviously you have never had kids. Morality is learned behavior.

Period. End of story.

[mvscal]

Hitler was in no way , shape or form a Christian.

To the extent you're arguing that he failed to follow the teachings of Christ, I agree.

I'm not arguing that he merely "failed to follow the teachings of Christ." He wasn't a Christian at all, you fucking dolt.

Hitler was well aware of the power of religion. He was also rather intolerant and mistrustful of centers of power which were not under his control. He tolerated Christianity and he manipulated Christians to his advatange because he had no choice. Weaning the German people off of Chritianity was a long term objective. His plan was to bind the German people to the Reich: body, mind and soul. The long term plan was to completely eradicate Christianity and replace it with a Hitler's vision of a state religion.

Here's a link to an annex of a report prepared by the OSS for the Nuremburg Trials that sheds a little more light on the topic of Nazi attitudes and plans for Chritianity.

http://www.leics.gov.uk/the_nazi_master_plan.pdf

[smackaholic]

Is bradhusker the worst poster in the history of this board?

I'm starting to think he is. In terms of him being a troll, he's repetitive, childishly annoying, and simply not worth reading. Excepting maybe the little starving black kid who always wants to know where his mammy is, or those painfully horrible Bobby Da Boss w.i.g.g.e.r trolls, bradhusker is definitely the shittiest Character Troll we've ever seen.

Now if he really isn't a troll and actually means this shit, as Mgo believes, then that would at least be marginally less offensive. To think that someone would intentionally create this stupid of a persona is the worst thing of all. Coming to terms with the realization that this monkey is just uniquely afflicted would be much easier to take. Hey, if it's not his fault, it's not his fault.

I don't buy it. The guy is trolling, and any mind that would willingly spew this garbage on a daily basis is in need of some serious pharmaceutical distractions. Bare minimum, the damn doctors need to finish the lobotomy.

there are times his off the charts dumbfukkery has me convinced he's a troll and therte are other times he seems sincere.

imo, this makes him a decent enough troll. definitely better than the mvscal trolls.

[Felix]

You are, quite simply, full of shit. Obviously you have never had kids. Morality is learned behavior.

Period. End of story.

define "morality"
understand, that you're treading a pretty slippery slope here

btw, I have two kids

[mvscal]

Morality is what defines acceptable behavior within a society. There is no such thing as "intrinsic" morality.

[Mikey]

Morality is what defines acceptable behavior within a society. There is no such thing as "intrinsic" morality.

Sort of like, what's moral in San Francisco isn't quite the same as what's moral in Brigham City, Utah, which isn't quite the same as what's moral in Mogadishu?

[mvscal]

Morality is what defines acceptable behavior within a society. There is no such thing as "intrinsic" morality.

Sort of like, what's moral in San Francisco isn't quite the same as what's moral in Brigham City, Utah, which isn't quite the same as what's moral in Mogadishu?

Precisely.

[War Wagon]

If God truly existed and wanted me to know about it, He could easily make it happen...right?

Right.

When you wake up tomorrow and are allowed to witness yet another sunrise, knowing full well of your frail infirmities, there you go.

Prayer is a powerful thing, I suggest you cast aside your doubts and try it.

There are no atheists in foxholes.

[Felix]

Morality is what defines acceptable behavior within a society. There is no such thing as "intrinsic" morality.

so, by your definition, societal animals such as the ones I've previously noted demonstrate "moral" behaviors...where do they get these "morals" from?

Sort of like, what's moral in San Francisco isn't quite the same as what's moral in Brigham City, Utah, which isn't quite the same as what's moral in Mogadishu?

yeah, that's the slippery slope....

When you wake up tomorrow and are allowed to witness yet another sunrise, knowing full well of your frail infirmities, there you go.

the sun doesn't "rise" the earth merely rotates

[mvscal]

societal animals such as the ones I've previously noted demonstrate "moral" behaviors...

You are anthropomorphizing. And stop backpedalling while you're at it. The topic is morality not cooperative behavior.

Even with apes and other primates, social behavior is learned not intrinsic.

[Van]

If God truly existed and wanted me to know about it, He could easily make it happen...right?

Right.

When you wake up tomorrow and are allowed to witness yet another sunrise, knowing full well of your frail infirmities, there you go.

There I go...what? Merely waking up and realizing I'm human provides no proof of God's existence. Neither another sunrise nor a tomato garden offer evidence of anything except the fact that life on Earth continues.

Prayer is a powerful thing, I suggest you cast aside your doubts and try it.

I have, and I've told you so in no uncertain terms many times, so I would appreciate it if you would stop taking the asinine position that praying will necessarily result in anything. It doesn't. It certainly doesn't result in one's learning of God's existence. The way asshat Christians blame a lack of faith in non-believers on some supposed failure on their part to put in the work is obnoxiously condescending and downright absurd.

There are no atheists in foxholes.

Of course there are. Quit speaking in bumper stickers.

[poptart]

and you know this how? how do you know that right before he died he didn't accept jesus christ as his savior and according to christian mysticism isn't residing at the right hand of god right now, while the millions of jews he killed are all burning in hell because they never accepted christ as their savior....well of course, there's going to have to be some "get out of jail free cards" that can be extracted from the bible...

what about children who starve to death without ever having the chance to "find christ"? christers throw up their hands and say such things as "I don't know what god's plan for them is", yet they can say assuredly that I'm going straight to hell....

You've brought up such topics to me before.

When I've given response to them, the dialogue which you have brought after my having given response has had me realize that you didn't really read the response that I gave.

[DC Smackmaster]

Van:

I have, and I've told you so in no uncertain terms many times, so I would appreciate it if you would stop taking the asinine position that praying will necessarily result in anything. It doesn't. It certainly doesn't result in one's learning of God's existence. The way asshat Christians blame a lack of faith in non-believers on some supposed failure on their part to put in the work is obnoxiously condescending and downright absurd.

RRRAAACCCKKKKKK!!!!

This argument is futile because theists, as soon as they are stymied by logic, resort to meaningless explanations; "The lord works in mysterious ways" "That's why they call it faith" I just don't see how a rational person can read the bible and not recognize the obvious fiction! Talking donkeys, snakes, bushes! People rising from the dead! A dude spending 3 days in a whale unti god commanded the whale to puke him out...alive. Too many more examples of pure craziness to try and list! I wonder how many "Christians" have really even read the old testament?!? Shit is OFF THE WALL!! How do people live a life with no supernatural events occuring, yet do not question the absurd multitude of supernatural occurences contained in the bible?!?!

[Felix]

You are anthropomorphizing. And stop backpedalling while you're at it. The topic is morality not cooperative behavior.

are you implying that morality and cooperative behavior are mutually exclusive? human "morals" have evolved from consequentialism, which is intrinsic in all species....

[Van]

DC, c'mon, Jesus supposedly looked like the singer in Nickleback. What more do you need?

[Dr_Phibes]

Anthropomorphising and consequentialism aside, you're both committing acts of reification.

[poptart]

I have, and I've told you so in no uncertain terms many times, so I would appreciate it if you would stop taking the asinine position that praying will necessarily result in anything. It doesn't. It certainly doesn't result in one's learning of God's existence. The way asshat Christians blame a lack of faith in non-believers on some supposed failure on their part to put in the work is obnoxiously condescending and downright absurd.

What was the content of your prayer?

I just don't see how a rational person can read the bible and not recognize the obvious fiction! ... People rising from the dead!

DC, you mentioned before that you had been born again.
In order for this to happen, you had to have had a belief that Jesus rose from the dead, didn't you?

I don't understand.

[mvscal]

You are anthropomorphizing. And stop backpedalling while you're at it. The topic is morality not cooperative behavior.

are you implying that morality and cooperative behavior are mutually exclusive?

I didn't imply anything. I stated quite clearly that morality and cooperative behavior are two different things and both are learned.

Why are you struggling with plain English?

human "morals" have evolved from consequentialism, which is intrinsic in all species....

Consequentialism is learned behavior, idiot.

[Van]

pop, I've prayed many times, running the gamut of "content."

Why do you ask? Are you now going to tell me that there are right and wrong prayer subjects, and you know the specific ones that will engender a discernible response from God? Should I only pray to give thanks following a TD pass, as opposed to, say, a petition prayer for a loved one? Is that where I screwed up?

[DC Smackmaster]

I really wanted to believe it poptart. I immersed myself into the bible and the company of Christian friends after something happened that jacked me up emotionally. I can't say that I was ever at a point that I felt sure of my belief. I can say to you without a doubt that i did seek god, genuinely. From the start i had a few sticking points that were really hindering my ability to go "all in". I can tell you what those were if you're interested. I was never able to find answers that made sense to me. After repeated attempts and failures to repent of my sins I found myself frequently discouraged and began to doubt if I had ever really been "born again". I got baptized, i was praying, i was going to bible studies, opened my mind and heart to the holy spirit. I just couldn't shake this growing skepticism. I floundered around for years after not considering where I REALLY stood. Eventually I came to the conclusion that i hadn't been born again at all because i just didn't believe. It was then that i embraced my own reasoning and cocluded that there was no evidence to suppot my faith in Christianity. I apologize for the assloads of poor grammer!

[bradhusker]

Hitler was in no way , shape or form a Christian.

To the extent you're arguing that he failed to follow the teachings of Christ, I agree.

I'm not arguing that he merely "failed to follow the teachings of Christ." He wasn't a Christian at all, you fucking dolt.

Hitler was well aware of the power of religion. He was also rather intolerant and mistrustful of centers of power which were not under his control. He tolerated Christianity and he manipulated Christians to his advatange because he had no choice. Weaning the German people off of Chritianity was a long term objective. His plan was to bind the German people to the Reich: body, mind and soul. The long term plan was to completely eradicate Christianity and replace it with a Hitler's vision of a state religion.

Here's a link to an annex of a report prepared by the OSS for the Nuremburg Trials that sheds a little more light on the topic of Nazi attitudes and plans for Chritianity.

http://www.leics.gov.uk/the_nazi_master_plan.pdf

RAAAAAACK HIM!!!!

Thanks for putting that idiot in his place. Of course Hitler was using christianity for his grand plans.
The fact that there are posters on this board who actually thought that he was a christian?
Thats proof that felix and a few others in here are sick in the fuckin head.

As for terms like "LOGIC'? Atheists seem to think that "LOGIC" is on their side in arguements against christianity, HOWEVER, nothing could be further from the truth.

Since there is no scientific proof in the origins of all things, LOGIC cannot be used in any conversation which deals with GOD and the great unanswered questions of all time.

Atheists pretend to have the answers, pretend that science explains everything, HOWEVER, its a lie they use to convince others that there is no GOD.

Obviously, I cant prove there is a GOD, just like the atheist cant prove there isnt. So I guess we just have to leave it at that.

[poptart]

Van, DC, the hard part here is condensing all the things I wish to say or relay to you.
I'll try not to write a book, but my inner-Annie perhaps can't be stopped.

From the start i had a few sticking points that were really hindering my ability to go "all in". I can tell you what those were if you're interested. I was never able to find answers that made sense to me. After repeated attempts and failures to repent of my sins I found myself frequently discouraged and began to doubt if I had ever really been "born again".

You can talk about what hindered you from going "all in" if you like, or PM me if you don't care to bring it into the open forum.
But I get a sense of how that was.

First, I obviously can't say whether you are born again or not.
But relating directly to this are the three Scripture I posted in my first reply to you in this thread.
I do think those are important.
Take a look at them again, if you care to.


My case is worth noting...

My parents dragged me, my bro', and sis to church sometimes.
They were not "church people," but they somehow thought they should go sometimes... and thought we should go.
I hated it with a passion, NEVER wanted to go, and got ZERO out of it.
Lutheran Church.

Fast forward to college - 1980.
20 years old, alone in my dorm room, heard a televangelist (who's still living and I don't really respect) presenting the Gospel on TV late one night.
It struck me as the truth and I prayed to receive Jesus Christ.

After that, I got a Bible and read it sometimes, tried to pray (not easy), tried to somehow be "holy" (fail), went to a campus church (not good), so I gave up on trying to find a church, etc.
I did sincerely want to get close to God... if He was there.
I still doubted it - even though I had sincerely prayed to take Christ at that moment in time.

I remember reading my Bible in my room, trying to pray... and then walking out of my room a few minutes later, where a friend of mine was was in the hall.
He asked me to go smoke a bowl with him.
I went, happily.

Then I was thinking, "What kind of person am I? Wtf is wrong with me? Why am I like this?"
One minute I'm in my room sincerely trying to read the Bible and pray and the next minute I am puffin' and laffin' away with a friend? A stoner.
"I'm not REALLY a Christian. REAL Christians don't do this shit. They don't act like this," is what I thought.

Over the next few years, it went that way.
Sometimes I read the Bible and was very interested in it, and in prayer.
Other times I just couldn't get in to it... at all.
I rather wanted to fugg around and just thought it was sort of hard to be a Christian.

I gradually just sort of gave up on it and then later didn't consider myself a Christian, even arguing for being an agnostic with a Christian friend of mine.
That was around 1988.

Then fast forward (past some good times and also MANY more hardships than I ever would have wanted) to 1997.
I was able to meet some pastors who began to talk to me clearly about what the Gospel is.
And an important point was - assurance of salvation.

I told one of the pastors that I didn't even know if I was really a Christian.
I told him that I did pray to receive Christ in 1980, but sort of "went away" after that.
He said, "You were not lying at that time you prayed that, were you?"

No, I wasn't.

Then that's it.
I HAD confessed and taken Christ right at that time in 1980 - and God took me right at that moment.
I had become His child and it never changed through the decade, and it never will change - Matthew 28:20, among many other passages.

Over the next 15 years since 1997, I have listened to the Gospel message very often - the real core of the Gospel.
Sometimes (maybe a LOT of times) I haven't felt like listening or reading the Bible.
And my basic character is still like it was in 1980 - Jekyll and Hyde, and I'm still full of filth.
But I recognize that I've healed a lot.
And I recognize that I always come back to the Gospel - and ultimately hunger for it - because I've really gotten a taste for it, how great it is, and how there really is no solution apart from it.
I feel most normal, like a real human being, when I am with God.

See:
Ephesians 2:8,9 - When we express our faith and take Christ Who is given to us, it is our salvation.
John 1:13.

No need to stress about over-repentance, our own lackings, our disbelief, how perverse our thoughts are, etc.
God already knows it.
We're ALL fucked up, Christians included - and some of them are MORE fucked up than anyone else, imo,
Fundamentally, we're all soaked in unbelief - and that's why all the weirdness comes about.

I'm not some great pillar of belief, and that should already be clear, but I CAN testify that it's at the times of my true belief that God's grace is SO great.
Yeah, it's my confession that He's real - and as I look back to where I've gone since 1980, it's clear to see how He has guided it to where I am presently.
I can't possibly elaborate on it all, but I am very much aware of it.

pop, I've prayed many times, running the gamut of "content."

Why do you ask? Are you now going to tell me that there are right and wrong prayer subjects, and you know the specific ones that will engender a discernible response from God? Should I only pray to give thanks following a TD pass, as opposed to, say, a petition prayer for a loved one? Is that where I screwed up?

For what it's worth, here's what I think, Van.

This has become man's position: Genesis 3:11, Ephesians 2:2.
Give 'em a look.

We can pray many things, but God hears and responds to the prayers of His children.
And that is Ephesians 2:8,9 and John 1:13 which I posted above.

I would express to God that I want to believe, but find it very very hard to do.
And I would confess that I am sinful and apart from God but do... at this moment rest my unbelief and trust in Jesus Christ.
See what happens.


Thanks for making it to this point, if you did. :)

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

One minute I'm in my room sincerely trying to read the Bible and pray and the next minute I am puffin' and laffin' away with a friend? A stoner.
"I'm not REALLY a Christian. REAL Christians don't do this shit. They don't act like this," is what I thought.

Why can't you rip bongs and accept Jesus into your life?

Are they exclusive?

[poptart]

Well, I ripped bongs after accepting Jesus into my life.
And often.

I hope this doesn't exclude me from a radio time slot.

Anyway, aren't a lot of radio personalities *LIT* most of the time?

[Felix]

Consequentialism is learned behavior, idiot.

you win...
"intrinsic" was the wrong term....

I really wanted to believe it poptart. I got baptized, i was praying, i was going to bible studies, opened my mind and heart to the holy spirit. I just couldn't shake this growing skepticism.

"you just didn't try hard enough...here, let me quote some scripture passages that I'm sure you've never read before, that if you read them enough times, they'll change your mind" /s/ poptart

Obviously, I cant prove there is a GOD, just like the atheist cant prove there isnt.

atheists aren't obligated to prove anything.....

oh and btw tart, don't think I missed that "I've answered these type questions before" comment earlier....throwing up some biblical passages with a heaping dose of "nobody knows why god works the way he does" does not constitute an answer.....

I posed a simple hypothetical question
"what if hitler truly accepted jesus at the end would he be in heaven?" based on your beliefs...

I don't want biblical passages, this is pretty much a yes/no question

[Mr T]

I posed a simple hypothetical question
"what if hitler truly accepted jesus at the end would he be in heaven?" based on your beliefs...

If he had a priest baptize him before he died, then he would be removed of all sin. Also he accepted Jesus before in his life and talked of christianity in mein kampf

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZJ-_OTvsqo

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

Anyway, aren't a lot of radio personalities *LIT* most of the time?

[Diego in Seattle]

I posed a simple hypothetical question
"what if hitler truly accepted jesus at the end would he be in heaven?" based on your beliefs...

If he had a priest baptize him before he died, then he would be removed of all sin. Also he accepted Jesus before in his life and talked of christianity in mein kampf

So now a thumper is saying that salvation can only come about for someone in the end based on their proximity to a priest....priceless. I'm betting there's another thumper in here with a different point of view.

On a related note, show me any church & I'll show you another "christian" church who thinks that your church isn't real christianity. You thumpers just can't get your story straight. Yet those of us who can think for ourselves are supposed to believe you morons?

Religion is fine for those who need a psychological crutch. The problem is when they try to beat others with their crutch. The holy rollers wouldn't find themselves looked down on / mocked so much if they could just keep their crutches to themselves instead of trying to run the lives of others with it.

[Felix]

If he had a priest baptize him before he died, then he would be removed of all sin.

"must meet certain requirements/certain limitations apply" small print is a motherfucker...I got tripped up on that one time when I signed up for a "get one free round trip airfare ticket" offer from a certain unnamed airline by enrolling for one of their credit cards....

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

Yeah, how fucked up is it that, in theory, a sadistic psychopath responsible for mass genocide of innocent people can simply accept Christ "into his heart" at the last minute and suddenly be granted eternal salvation, while a genuinely good and moral, but non-believing individual, will burn in Hell.

God is a sick asshole.

[Van]

I would express to God that I want to believe, but find it very very hard to do.

Seems valid. That would be number one on my current list of topics.

And I would confess that I am sinful and apart from God but do... at this moment rest my unbelief and trust in Jesus Christ.

Probably not a good idea. Lying to God likely wouldn't go over too well. Pretty sure He'd know that I haven't rested my unbelief or placed any trust in Jesus Christ. I'd need to hear back from Him first before either of those things could ever be true.

See what happens.

Nothing ever happens. I've hit Him up with the first one many times. He's never bothered to assuage my doubts. He's never told me anything. Basically, I found that I was just talking to myself.

[bradhusker]

Van, DC, the hard part here is condensing all the things I wish to say or relay to you.
I'll try not to write a book, but my inner-Annie perhaps can't be stopped.

From the start i had a few sticking points that were really hindering my ability to go "all in". I can tell you what those were if you're interested. I was never able to find answers that made sense to me. After repeated attempts and failures to repent of my sins I found myself frequently discouraged and began to doubt if I had ever really been "born again".

You can talk about what hindered you from going "all in" if you like, or PM me if you don't care to bring it into the open forum.
But I get a sense of how that was.

First, I obviously can't say whether you are born again or not.
But relating directly to this are the three Scripture I posted in my first reply to you in this thread.
I do think those are important.
Take a look at them again, if you care to.


My case is worth noting...

My parents dragged me, my bro', and sis to church sometimes.
They were not "church people," but they somehow thought they should go sometimes... and thought we should go.
I hated it with a passion, NEVER wanted to go, and got ZERO out of it.
Lutheran Church.

Fast forward to college - 1980.
20 years old, alone in my dorm room, heard a televangelist (who's still living and I don't really respect) presenting the Gospel on TV late one night.
It struck me as the truth and I prayed to receive Jesus Christ.

After that, I got a Bible and read it sometimes, tried to pray (not easy), tried to somehow be "holy" (fail), went to a campus church (not good), so I gave up on trying to find a church, etc.
I did sincerely want to get close to God... if He was there.
I still doubted it - even though I had sincerely prayed to take Christ at that moment in time.

I remember reading my Bible in my room, trying to pray... and then walking out of my room a few minutes later, where a friend of mine was was in the hall.
He asked me to go smoke a bowl with him.
I went, happily.

Then I was thinking, "What kind of person am I? Wtf is wrong with me? Why am I like this?"
One minute I'm in my room sincerely trying to read the Bible and pray and the next minute I am puffin' and laffin' away with a friend? A stoner.
"I'm not REALLY a Christian. REAL Christians don't do this shit. They don't act like this," is what I thought.

Over the next few years, it went that way.
Sometimes I read the Bible and was very interested in it, and in prayer.
Other times I just couldn't get in to it... at all.
I rather wanted to fugg around and just thought it was sort of hard to be a Christian.

I gradually just sort of gave up on it and then later didn't consider myself a Christian, even arguing for being an agnostic with a Christian friend of mine.
That was around 1988.

Then fast forward (past some good times and also MANY more hardships than I ever would have wanted) to 1997.
I was able to meet some pastors who began to talk to me clearly about what the Gospel is.
And an important point was - assurance of salvation.

I told one of the pastors that I didn't even know if I was really a Christian.
I told him that I did pray to receive Christ in 1980, but sort of "went away" after that.
He said, "You were not lying at that time you prayed that, were you?"

No, I wasn't.

Then that's it.
I HAD confessed and taken Christ right at that time in 1980 - and God took me right at that moment.
I had become His child and it never changed through the decade, and it never will change - Matthew 28:20, among many other passages.

Over the next 15 years since 1997, I have listened to the Gospel message very often - the real core of the Gospel.
Sometimes (maybe a LOT of times) I haven't felt like listening or reading the Bible.
And my basic character is still like it was in 1980 - Jekyll and Hyde, and I'm still full of filth.
But I recognize that I've healed a lot.
And I recognize that I always come back to the Gospel - and ultimately hunger for it - because I've really gotten a taste for it, how great it is, and how there really is no solution apart from it.
I feel most normal, like a real human being, when I am with God.

See:
Ephesians 2:8,9 - When we express our faith and take Christ Who is given to us, it is our salvation.
John 1:13.

No need to stress about over-repentance, our own lackings, our disbelief, how perverse our thoughts are, etc.
God already knows it.
We're ALL fucked up, Christians included - and some of them are MORE fucked up than anyone else, imo,
Fundamentally, we're all soaked in unbelief - and that's why all the weirdness comes about.

I'm not some great pillar of belief, and that should already be clear, but I CAN testify that it's at the times of my true belief that God's grace is SO great.
Yeah, it's my confession that He's real - and as I look back to where I've gone since 1980, it's clear to see how He has guided it to where I am presently.
I can't possibly elaborate on it all, but I am very much aware of it.

pop, I've prayed many times, running the gamut of "content."

Why do you ask? Are you now going to tell me that there are right and wrong prayer subjects, and you know the specific ones that will engender a discernible response from God? Should I only pray to give thanks following a TD pass, as opposed to, say, a petition prayer for a loved one? Is that where I screwed up?

For what it's worth, here's what I think, Van.

This has become man's position: Genesis 3:11, Ephesians 2:2.
Give 'em a look.

We can pray many things, but God hears and responds to the prayers of His children.
And that is Ephesians 2:8,9 and John 1:13 which I posted above.

I would express to God that I want to believe, but find it very very hard to do.
And I would confess that I am sinful and apart from God but do... at this moment rest my unbelief and trust in Jesus Christ.
See what happens.

being apart from GOD.
Thanks for making it to this point, if you did. :)

Poptart, let me just say that I was very moved by your post. I too accepted Christ as my saviour back in 1985, at sheridan hills baptist church in Hollywood Florida.
Since that time, I have not led a perfect life by any means. BUT, what struck me most about your life experience, was the part about being "apart from GOD", WOW, that really hit me.

This is the most important thing any of us can ever know in life. The true meaning of any of our lives, ultimately lies in our relationship with GOD. Seen through that perspective, life is totally meaningless without GOD in it.

Felix, again, NO ONE knows the origins of all things, so I was correct in saying that science is not on the side of anybody, the atheist cant claim that science proves his stance of there being NO GOD.
Stop being foolish and realize that fact.

We can leave it at that, BUT know this, my stance is much more rewarding, Ultimeately, I have hope, and, may I say, much joy, because, if im correct about GOD being real, then I have much to look forward to. THE FLIP SIDE? If the atheist is correct in there being NO GOD? Then that is just sad and gives his life no meaning.
Think about it? If there is NO GOD, then everything is without meaning, and, after this life, you have nothing to look forward to.
As a believer in GOD, I have everything to look forward to, wanting a relationship with the divine creator, enriches this life with much love and joy, AND, gives the believer a promise for an eternity of much love and joy.
The atheist? I guess he can enjoy some crippy weed, BUT, when he dies? NOTHING.
thats sad.