Rooster

mvscal · Post by **mvscal** » Thu May 05, 2011 7:09 am

You seen anything like this before? I've never seen anything like it. It's not a pave hawk or pave low.

Rooster · Post by **Rooster** » Thu May 05, 2011 7:26 am

Yeah, we've been discussing that very thing. My first inclination is to say it's photoshopped, but the rotor head looks very close to the Sikorsky X-2, which is supposed to have a dual counter-rotating main head. The tailboom has swept back horizontal stab surfaces, which really serve no purpose in a relatively slow moving machine like a helicopter, but the shrouded tail rotor would reduce the helicopter's main noise source by up to 80%, which is what Eurocopter has done with the EC135 and 120 platforms-- so that part would likely be legit.

All that leads me to wonder why they would use an untested aerial movement platform on such an important op like this one. There are plenty of aircraft which would do that and more, most of which are battle tested and desert conditions-proven, so sending out SEALs in a quieter helicopter just for the sake of noise reduction doesn't track for me.

There are a lot of interesting things going on out here helicopter-wise, such as unmanned helicopter to move stuff into hot LZs, but we haven't seen anything like that at all except in early test type photos or reports.

However, the location looks pretty close to the pictures of the bin Laden compound, along with the building style, but early reports we got were that it was a CH-47 that went down and they blew it in place after lighting up the secret components with thermite grenades.

But who knows? There's a lot of weird and strange stuff out here that is getting rigorous field testing.

Rooster · Post by **Rooster** » Thu May 05, 2011 7:31 am

The other possibility for that thing that is covering the rotor system (which is commonly called a Chinese hat), is that it is ballistic protection for the hub, the weakest link of the blade package. There are more pictures out there of that scene which could show that part you posted as being the main rotor instead of the tail rotor assembly. There just aren't enough good angles to make the determination for good analysis by us amatuers-- which also leads us to believe it's a fake.

mvscal · Post by **mvscal** » Thu May 05, 2011 7:42 am

The thing that interests me is we retired the HH-53 in '08 and didn't replace it...with anything we know about anyway. A Shithook is pretty much everything but stealthy. It doesn't seem like they would fit the bill for a heavy lift SAR/SOP type bird and that piece isn't from a CH-47 for damn sure.

Regardless of whoever was home that night, it was a pretty fucking slick op....well, except for losing that shiny new toy.

Rooster · Post by **Rooster** » Thu May 05, 2011 8:20 am

Speculation at some of the helo forums I read is that is could be a Commanche (RAH-66)/Blackhawk (MH-60) hybrid or legacy machine left over from its' test flight days, but I discount that, if for no other reason that the TF-160 boys don't use such stuff and they have the latest and greatest in rotary wing goodies. Besides, the Commanche only held 6 people not including the crew and there weren't that many produced that could support all the principles involved in this operation. Why use one stealthy helicopter and complement it with non-stealthy helos?

The location OBL was located at isn't very far from Afghanistan and using terrain, they could have defeated what bad radar coverage the Pakis have, not to mention all the countermeasures we've got on this side of the border. A 'Hook, a couple of Apaches, and some AH-6s for scouting would be more than sufficient to do the job. Or an Osprey escorted by AH-1s. There would just be no need for something unproven and unsuited for the task.

Mikey · Post by **Mikey** » Thu May 05, 2011 2:33 pm

As experts have gotten a look at photos of the pieces of a U.S. helicopter left behind at the compound where Osama bin Laden was killed, they've come to the conclusion that commandos were using a stealth version of the famous Black Hawk, Army Times and IHS Jane's report.

Jane's says that:

"Following the raid on 1 May only the tail section of the helicopter remained — the main body having been destroyed in situ by US special forces — but aspects of its design do not tally with the generally held belief that Sikorsky MH/UH-60 Black Hawk-type helicopters were used in the mission.

"Specifically, the tail rotor of the crashed helicopter has a five-bladed assembly, whereas the Black Hawk tail rotor has four blades. Also, where the Black Hawk's vertical tail section tapers towards the top, the helicopter lost in the raid has a vertical tailplane than has an even chord from top to bottom capped off with what appears to be a large aerodynamic surface."

And Army Times reports that:

"The helicopters that flew the Navy SEALs on the mission to kill Osama bin Laden were a radar-evading variant of the special operations MH-60 Black Hawk, according to a retired special operations aviator.

"The helicopter's low-observable technology is similar to that of the F-117 Stealth Fighter the retired special operations aviator said. 'It really didn't look like a traditional Black Hawk,' he said. It had 'hard edges, sort of like an ... F-117, you know how they have those distinctive edges and angles — that's what they had on this one.' "

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/201 ... t=1&f=1001

Rooster · Post by **Rooster** » Thu May 05, 2011 5:07 pm

There's no question that there are people a whole lot smarter than me out there, but my understanding of helicopters and stealth is that the frequency of the rotor blade rotation, the coning of those blades during flight, and the twist of the rotors under power cause a helicopter to be distinctly un-stealthy. The Commanche attempted to mitigate that by using angled surfaces, but unlike jets, a helicopter's moving parts are all exposed to radar and cannot be shrouded. Some of the radar return can be reduced by placing an anechoic (sp?) coating across the aircraft, including the rotor blades, but the engineers found it added too much weight to the design. In the end deflecting surfaces on the fusalage were utilized to deflect and reduce the radar signature.

None of the people I interact with or have ties to from my military days have ever spoken or hinted at anything like this coming out of Ft. Campbell, home of Task Force 160-- which is not to say it isn't out there, but given the training requirements for such a machine, rumors always abound.

I still am skeptical, despite Jane's and the Army Times.

smackaholic · Post by **smackaholic** » Thu May 05, 2011 11:05 pm

What a buncha maroons.

It's quite obvious to anyone that had a TV in the 80s that they dusted off airwolf for one last mission.

Shlomart Ben Yisrael · Thu May 05, 2011 11:25 pm

smackaholic wrote:What a buncha maroons.

It's quite obvious to anyone that had a TV in the 80s that they dusted off airwolf for one last mission.

"I hope Ernest Borgnine is okay..."

Sincerely, Mikey.

Go Coogs' · Post by **Go Coogs'** » Fri May 06, 2011 12:15 am

smackaholic wrote:What a buncha maroons.

It's quite obvious to anyone that had a TV in the 80s that they dusted off airwolf for one last mission.

Go fuck yourself!

Rooster · Post by **Rooster** » Fri May 06, 2011 4:04 pm

Ok, one of the guys I work with was in the 160th SOAR and he believes the pictures are accurate and show a heavily modified Blackhawk using Commanche tech. The thing I thought was ballistic shielding, he thinks is an angled surface for radar attenuation.

We both wondered where they have been training with this thing since there have been no reports of anything like it anywhere and the crews need to get plenty of practice in before performing actual missions. He suspects the pilot got combat jitters and overcontrolled the machine during the landing phase and balled it up on short final. It wasn't uncommon during his tenure in the unit for that to happen. Over 70% of the aviation Class A accidents in the Army happened in the 160th for the first few years of their formation due to pushing the envelope to extreme limits in machines which are largely designed on the go in response to a particular need. No FAA STCs there...

Rooster · Post by **Rooster** » Fri May 06, 2011 4:37 pm

Mmm, Mother Rucker. Yeah, a lot of time in my career was spent there for training. My son was born at Lyster Army Hospital which makes him a true wild eyed Southern boy. Great area, I love it, been thinking of going back and getting employment as a tactical flight IP.

For what it's worth, I dug a little bit deeper and discovered that the TF 160th took possession of two heavily modified stealth 'Hawks back in February, which explains why no one has seen these previously. The five bladed tail rotor allowed the drive train to slow the blade count down and greatly reduce the noise signature, much like what Eurocopter has done with the EC135 and its' shrouded fenestron tail rotor.

It makes sense I suppose since the Commanche was a Sikorsky project and given the chance would like to use some of the tech that they developed but never got the chance to produce.

LTS TRN 2 · Post by **LTS TRN 2** » Fri May 06, 2011 8:48 pm

What is it?

Well, an outrageously overpriced piece of shit for starters, with a 25% failure rate right out of the gate.

Nice job of the fleeing seals to "destroy" it so its design and components can't be immediately squirreled of to China for reverse engineering, etc. Sorta like when they were forced to burn the clothes and weapons of Pat Tillman after fragging him.

jiminphilly · Post by **jiminphilly** » Fri May 06, 2011 8:55 pm

LTS TRN 2 wrote: with a 25% failure rate right out of the gate.

How did you arrive at this?

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Fri May 06, 2011 9:03 pm

jiminphilly wrote:
LTS TRN 2 wrote: with a 25% failure rate right out of the gate.
How did you arrive at this?

It's LTS -- he makes shit up.

Either that, or there was a "scientific consensus" among non-christers.

LTS TRN 2 · Post by **LTS TRN 2** » Sat May 07, 2011 9:14 pm

How did I arrive at the 25% failure rate?

Well, gee...how about considering that FOUR of these billion dollar toys were dispatched and ONE of them immediately failed and had to be destroyed--an operation itself which also failed. So..that's 25%.

Why were you questioning this very plain and clear observation?

mvscal · Post by **mvscal** » Sat May 07, 2011 11:02 pm

A billion dollar helicopter?

LTS TRN 2 · Post by **LTS TRN 2** » Sun May 08, 2011 12:30 am

Slight hyperbole, but in fact the real number is no doubt secret, and if you factor in the costs of development, and having them fail at 25%, it starts adding up. Regardless, it's the most expensive whirlybird ever, and it fucked up immediately on a huge mission, taking no fire or threat of any kind.

Someone similarly tallied the tab for Bin Laden at three trillion!

What's yer point again? That there's no neocons? Or was that Climate Change? Or Military Defense Congressional complex?

You're one lost puppy.

R-Jack · Post by **R-Jack** » Sun May 08, 2011 12:41 am

LTS TRN 2 wrote:Regardless, it's the most expensive whirlybird ever

And how do you know?

LTS TRN 2 wrote:the real number is no doubt secret,

You need to start looking at the glass being half full. You say 25% failure. I say your KYOA missions success rate is at least 75% .

MadRussian · Post by **MadRussian** » Sun May 08, 2011 1:06 am

Its a modified Blackhawk called a Quiethawk.
Stealthed radar signature
Still a crashawk

Carson · Post by **Carson** » Sun May 08, 2011 1:07 pm

FST FUK 2 wrote:Slight hyperbole

Kinda like your a slight dumbfuck.

FEL CHR 2 wrote:Someone similarly tallied the tab for Bin Laden at three trillion!

Did you include Clinton's cruise missile camel enemas in your tally?

Rooster · Post by **Rooster** » Sun May 08, 2011 1:12 pm

A propos of nothing, if you can believe a former Navy Seal Command Master Chief, the burial at sea of OBL was conducted by those SEALs who shot him dead and then absconded with the body. According to his presently-in-the-service former comrades-in-arms they shoved a pulled pork sandwich in OBL's mouth, jammed a pork link sausage in his ass, and pissed on him as a way of washing the body to comply with our CinC's instructions before booting him off the USS Vincent.

Knowing the few SpecOps people I do-- a few of whom are Seals --I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if this was in fact true.

R-Jack · Post by **R-Jack** » Sun May 08, 2011 1:30 pm

Rooster wrote: they shoved a pulled pork sandwich in OBL's mouth, jammed a pork link sausage in his ass,

Kosher?

Shlomart Ben Yisrael · Sun May 08, 2011 1:56 pm

R-Jack wrote:
Rooster wrote: they shoved a pulled pork sandwich in OBL's mouth, jammed a pork link sausage in his ass,
Kosher?

Probably not. I doubt there's any high demand for kosher products in the U.S. military.

If by some random coincidence there are any Jews in the service, it's because they got lost on their way to Harvard Law School.

MgoBlue-LightSpecial · Sun May 08, 2011 2:27 pm

Rooster wrote:jammed a pork link sausage in his ass...

Is it just me, or would that suck more for the person doing it than it would for the dead guy?

Shlomart Ben Yisrael · Sun May 08, 2011 2:30 pm

MgoBlue-LightSpecial wrote:
Rooster wrote:jammed a pork link sausage in his ass...
Is it just me, or would that suck more for the person doing it than it would for the dead guy?

"Speak for your self!"

Sincerely, Screw_Michigan

Sincerely, Goobs.

BSmack · Post by **BSmack** » Sun May 08, 2011 4:17 pm

Rooster wrote:A propos of nothing, if you can believe a former Navy Seal Command Master Chief, the burial at sea of OBL was conducted by those SEALs who shot him dead and then absconded with the body. According to his presently-in-the-service former comrades-in-arms they shoved a pulled pork sandwich in OBL's mouth, jammed a pork link sausage in his ass, and pissed on him as a way of washing the body to comply with our CinC's instructions before booting him off the USS Vincent.

Knowing the few SpecOps people I do-- a few of whom are Seals --I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if this was in fact true.

Why would anybody slather bin Laden's body in pork products unless they actually believed that bullshit about pork being unclean?

Rooster · Post by **Rooster** » Sun May 08, 2011 5:00 pm

I dunno, I used to feed the Iraqi PoWs during GW1 my pork patties from the MREs we were given just for the fun of watching the Muzzies defile themselves. Juvenile, yes, but you get your fun where you can find it when stationed in a desert.

LTS TRN 2 · Post by **LTS TRN 2** » Mon May 09, 2011 7:15 pm

[quote="Rooster"]I dunno, but you get your fun where you can find it [/quote]

Exactly, you don't know jack fucking shit. Your tedious drunken boasts of harassing and abusing folks whose land you dutifully invaded--a dumb willing puppet of slimeball neocons--reflect the basic default of American education as well as our aborted image abroad.

Anyway, the absurdly overpriced piece of shit chopper indeed cost billions--and barely works. And worse than the astonishing lack of quality control in the design and construction of this flying sinkhole is the incredible incompetence of the super seals in their feeble attempt to actually destroy the failed copter. Are you kidding? With NO interference from anyone, no armed resistance, not even a good ol' fashioned fragging, the most elite commando unit in the world could not destroy the billion dollar top-secret boondoggle? They were SO excited to sneak off with a dead body that they just left all sorts of parts and pieces--to be reverse engineered? What a pathetic joke.

MadRussian · Post by **MadRussian** » Mon May 09, 2011 9:51 pm

Roach wrote:LTS, you are one dumb son of a bitch.

^^ MUCH too kind

Shlomart Ben Yisrael · Mon May 09, 2011 10:00 pm

Rooster wrote:I dunno, I used to feed the Iraqi PoWs during GW1 my pork patties from the MREs we were given just for the fun of watching the Muzzies defile themselves. Juvenile, yes, but you get your fun where you can find it when stationed in a desert.

From reading your stuff lately, you sound like a piece of shit in real life.

Wouldn't surprise me if you hand a string of assault charges against women too.

LTS TRN 2 · Post by **LTS TRN 2** » Tue May 10, 2011 5:00 am

Roach wrote:LTS, you are one dumb son of a bitch.

Now how do you propose to in any way back up such a juvenile play ground taunt?

Can you actually dispute anything I've said? As opposed to the usual tedious smear 'n run nonsense?

Of course not.

Now look, you boring idiots.....there's a lot going on right now in JAPAN that a lot of folks really don't want you to even think about. And while, yes, it's based on the pending unprecedented catastrophe now poised--yeah, the fucked up nuke plant--...somehow like a spider on a web...it's much more.

I'll see yer cardboard helicopter and raise you two galaxies..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6kEoYH0 ... r_embedded

Atomic Punk · Post by **Atomic Punk** » Tue May 10, 2011 5:11 am

LTARD, you haven't had pussy since pussy birthed you.

LTS TRN 2 · Post by **LTS TRN 2** » Tue May 10, 2011 7:52 am

Wrong.

But this is true..

But I suspect we're going to have to face head on that the great disaster that befell the West was monotheism -- Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.

And very soon we must account for the fact that..

Chosen Are All people , And Holy Is All Land..

WW

R-Jack · Post by **R-Jack** » Tue May 10, 2011 2:07 pm

LTS TRN 2 wrote:Can you actually dispute anything I've said?

You already disputed your own assesment of cost of the chopper in this thread you dumb son of a bitch.

LTS TRN 2 · Post by **LTS TRN 2** » Tue May 10, 2011 8:38 pm

What kind of half-assed refutation is that? You've disputed nothing, while attempting to simply dismiss the plain facts.

Fact: Of the four astronomically expensive new stealth helicopters deployed, one just failed. No hostile fire or anything.

Fact: The super seals attempt to destroy the dead chopper was pathetic. Look--it's basically still in one piece.

Fact: Moronic assholes like "Rooster" were marched off like dull puppets to invade Iraq on false premises where they engaged in all manner of abuse upon an innocent population.

What are you pretending to disagree with?

LTS TRN 2 · Post by **LTS TRN 2** » Wed May 11, 2011 2:40 am

There's nothing hysterical or emotional about the three basic facts I just stated, and which you can't even pretend to dispute. And my support for unions is practical, not personal. And make no mistake, the real topic of this thread is the obscene level of spending America wastes on absurdly overpriced military toys.

I see you're not really into connecting the dots on these matters, but I'd like you to consider that a relatively tiny group of individuals are currently sucking up a grossly disproportionate degree of this and other nation's wealth. Who are they?...What are they?

Roll this around in your dome a bit:

Insanely Rapacious Plutocratic Predatory Capitalists..

Okay? Nothing hysterical--or overstated. Just the facts. Care to pretend to dispute this? I doubt it.

Carson · Post by **Carson** » Thu May 12, 2011 2:56 am

Yes, we should stop spending scads of money on defense.

Spend it on life-saving research for AIDS vaccines.

Eat a dick 'til you drown in your own blood.

mvscal · Post by **mvscal** » Thu May 12, 2011 3:22 am

Rooster wrote:I dunno, I used to feed the Iraqi PoWs during GW1 my pork patties from the MREs we were given

You too?

I didn't even think about it, though. I would just give them the shit I didn't want to eat and send them on their way. Index was ready to call the ICC and report me for war crimes.