ever get fucked over by ONE guy at the poker table?

[Moby Dick]

over and over?

got into a 40$ freeze out last monday morning...only 65 folks were in on it.

anyhow, for the first hour i was playing lights out...only bluffed once or twice and got paid for it...every hand i saw to the river i won.

back to the point tho..

i get dealt pocket Kings, blinds were only 150 and 300 at this point..so i raised to 900. the guy directly across from me ( i was in seat 4) moves all in ..about a 1400$ raise. or..about 75% of my stack.

everyone else folds and it's back to me. i sit there and think about it for about 5 minutes. i couldnt help but KNOW he had an Ace ..and probably something small. I guess my biggest fear in the game of poker and getting sucked out on...anyhow..i call and the chip leader was like "why'd you wait so long to call??" I told him to wait..and sure enough..the fuck had A7 off. what'd he get on the river? a fuckin ace.

i fork over most of my stack and am left with a little over the starting chip stack (about 2200 in chips). so it's back to work for MD.

i get to work and get my chips back up to about 4k-ish when they break down our table. only 20 players left and guess who's sitting across from me at the new table? the same fuck.

blinds were 5 and 800 when that fucker goes all in again. everyone folds...i have AK diamonds and i call with an all in of my own. (had him covered by about 1500 this time). everyone folds and i flop over my cards...he shows A5 off. I just knew he'd suck out on me again. I told the two guys to my left.."watch, he'll suck out on me. he'll catch a 5" sure enough...the flop misses both of us...no flush draw for me...river was a blank..and the river was the 5 he needed.

now i'm crippled. with the blinds where they are..i was 2 positions from the big blind and i'm stuck with about 1200 in chips. I knew one of the next 2 hands i wanted to go all in on...maybe get away with stealing a blind for cheap. I get dealt A8 of clubs , move all in..everyone folds cept for the SAME COCKSUCKER..who , this time has a fucking hand with AQ. they hold up..i go home in 18th.

i hate clueless fucks at the table.

[buckeye_in_sc]

well Kings are Ace magnets...horrible beat there...A7...give me a break...I play cards with guys who think A2 off is the same as AA...

unreal...

how about Ivey winning 2 bracelets...

[Moby Dick]

well Kings are Ace magnets...horrible beat there...A7...give me a break...I play cards with guys who think A2 off is the same as AA...

unreal...

how about Ivey winning 2 bracelets...

he's won 2 so far this WSOP? gonna have to check out the WSOP site for sure..

[buckeye_in_sc]

I usually follow the action at www.pokernews.com

supposedly he made huge bets on himself to win a bracelet this year and has collected huge sums of money (some say close to $10mm)...

[TheJON]

I usually follow the action at http://www.pokernews.com

supposedly he made huge bets on himself to win a bracelet this year and has collected huge sums of money (some say close to $10mm)...

I honestly don't know how this guy gets any action at the tables anymore. Who would want to play with him? He's got the game and bankroll to bust anyone and everyone knows this. He's so god damn rich that his hundreds of thousands he wins at the WSOP aren't even enough to keep him intested- he needs to make million dollar side bets or he probably couldn't even take the WSOP serious. If I were him I might just go blow $20 million on blackjack so I could go back to actually giving a damn at the poker table again. I honestly don't even know how he can even give a crap when he sits down at the tables anymore. The money is nothing to him and even if he loses a few hundred grand or a million bucks on a hand it's no big deal. That would take the excitement out of the game I would think.

[Moby Dick]

ivey, i dont think has a main event bracelet....

i mean, i dont know ivey personally or anything, but i'm sure he still get's motivated to play in the main event (on someone else's money) to get that bracelet.

[Doug near DC]

I got one for ya.

We are down to the final table at a 50+ player tounament. I have the second highest stack at the table, at around 25,000 chips. Blinds are 2000-4000 and I'm the big blind.

I am dealt A 5 of spades. three total callers, one of which was all in with 4000.

Flop comes Q 3 7 all spades. I have a flopped a freakin nut flush.

I check, and the chick to my right fires 25,000 at the pot. She has me covered by 2000 chips. I figured with that flop, she may have a lower flush, or two pair. I had to call.

She had Q of diamonds, and 7 of hearts. Two pair. I'm way ahead, and she only has 4 outs. The all in at the other end of the table had pocket Kings.

Turn was J of clubs.

River was 7 of diamonds. She hit her @#%&#@% boat.

I went home and beat my head against the wall.

[SunCoastSooner]

I know this isn't what you want to hear... but it's part of the modern "ESPN Era" of poker.

[RANT] I hated those fucking bastards the first five or so years they started really showing the World Series of Poker. Made me want to vomit; thirty minutes to an hour of nonstop donkey suck outs. Every bad beat they could cram into an hour of air time. Suddenly everyone at the casinos thought that 4/5 suited was golden or Ace/Rag was a premium hand. I understand that there are times in a tourny when you have to make a move with a small stack and blinds approaching but with 30 to 80 times the big blind, with any two suited or connected cards, from under the gun isn't that fucking time ESPeoN! Jamie Gold and 5/2 of diamonds being played over, and over, and over, and over... and over again just made me fucking ill at my stomach.

My Grandfather started teaching me poker when I was a wee lad, literally. I sat on phone books in the back office of his oil well head storage facility, in the back of an old school Rex's Pharmacy, pawn shops, etc. with business owners, attorneys, and oil company CEOs and owners over summers learning the game before I was even a teenager. Poker helped me get through college, earned me the down payment to my first two new vehicles, my ex-wife's first new car, and bought my ex-wife's engagement ring.

My grand pappy taught me you come and you come correct, five to six times the blind pre-flop to push the shit out of the way. ESPeoN started preaching that three times the BB BS it's first few years because one of the analysts who had habitually sucked in poker events for the previous two decades of his life said so. Suddenly a real raise was assumed to be an over bet bluff by every novice that got the notion to sit down at a table for the first time in their life because they saw it on TV and ESPeoN said so. "I'm sorry man I thought my 9/10 of spades was ahead preflop." or "I just had this feeling man... my gut said do it."

I recall with fondness the days you could sit down at a table and make a raise from under the gun of five times the blind and the vast majority of the table knew to get the fuck out of the way; two callers tops and one would be some old fuck with too much money on vacation. My grandfather used to calls those the "ten percenters" because nine times out of ten you or the other guy who actually called you with a made or premium hand was going to walk away from the bakery with his bread. Now they should be called 60 percenters because they're in every fucking hand dealt. Now a days you better be even more extremely careful because half the table thinks they're Doyle Brunson and going to call you. Suddenly you have four or five callers and you're lucky if even one of the Phil Ivey wanna bes has a face card higher than a queen... much less a truly solid, or G-d forbid premium, hand.

I remember when real players knew you were supposed to aim at only being in about 10 to 15% of hands on the flop... now days it seems more like 40 to 50% from every mouth breathing bastard at a table. They think because ESPeoN only shows one out of every 50 or so hands even at the focus table that that's the way it is... Hey dumb fuck there is a reason that the dealer is a different dealer everytime ESPeoN shows a new hand and it's not because they change them after one you fucking moron!

ESPeoN... everything you touch turns to utter shit. It's like a reverse Midas syndrome; college football, college basketball, Monday Night Football, Major League Football, Newcastle United, Disney World, and now Poker. I hope Bristol, Connecticut gets wiped off the map by a Katrina like catastrophe you fucking fucks...

Then came internet poker... fuck it I don't have enough time to even start on internet poker sons of bitches... I hope all you fuckers get Ghannasyphaherpaclap and die with blood profusely draining out of every opening of you body.[/RANT]

[indyfrisco]

So you DO or DO NOT like the WSOP on ESPN?

[SunCoastSooner]

So you DO or DO NOT like the WSOP on ESPN?

They have started doing a better job but the damage has already been done... a generation of poker has been killed.

[indyfrisco]

Actually, my question was more rhetorical in nature. Kind of a "nice rant" remark.

[SunCoastSooner]

Actually, my question was more rhetorical in nature. Kind of a "nice rant" remark.

I had a couple of bad beats the other night at a charity event that was giving away a seat to WSOP Satelite event in Biloxi. I still made the final table but was so crippled it had virtually no meaning and just a matter of math until I got caught because I couldn't really push. Six of the eight guys I had seen win hands, mostly on the river after calling down all the way, against large raises with shit like 4/2 off, 10/5 suited, and repeated Ace Rags. Some old bastard who will likely donk off his chips before the first break won the seat. Bastard was actually smug about it with people and talking shit as his beer gut bounced up and down. He got really shitty with a military friend of mine but I felt a little bit of redemption after all his mouth when I was able to honk at him from the LSE rolling out of the parking lot and he was getting into his 6 year old Kia.

I'm going to show up one time at something like that and just get plowed , say screw poker, go ultra donkey, and piss some people off one day... Hell who am I kidding, I have been saying that for years now and when it comes time I never have the heart to do it but I'll be damned if just once I could be the lucky dumb ass and just go all Jamie Gold on about 90 fuckers so I can laugh and tell them to fuck off.

Playing correct pays off in the long run. I'm sure I have taken down ten times the pots, tournies, and free rolls as he has and I'm 1/3 his age.

[indyfrisco]

I was in Tampa and went to the hard rock. I didn't realize there were no table games. I was pretty pissed all they had was slots and poker. I love poker with my buds, but I could never do that poker room again.

[TheJON]

I was in Tampa and went to the hard rock. I didn't realize there were no table games. I was pretty pissed all they had was slots and poker. I love poker with my buds, but I could never do that poker room again.

What's wrong with that poker room? Will be there in Clearwater in a couple months and I believe that's the only poker room around, isn't it? As long as they have a decent game going, it can't be that bad.......can it?

[TheJON]

My grand pappy taught me you come and you come correct, five to six times the blind pre-flop to push the shit out of the way. ESPeoN started preaching that three times the BB BS it's first few years because one of the analysts who had habitually sucked in poker events for the previous two decades of his life said so. Suddenly a real raise was assumed to be an over bet bluff by every novice that got the notion to sit down at a table for the first time in their life because they saw it on TV and ESPeoN said so. "I'm sorry man I thought my 9/10 of spades was ahead preflop." or "I just had this feeling man... my gut said do it."

I completely disagree with this strategy in most spots........

Put it this way......

I usually raise 3.5-4 times the blind. If a player has limped, I make it 4-4.5 times.

If you start raising 5-6 times the blind you're doing a couple things.......

1.You're forcing out shit hands. I know, bad beats suck balls. But I like tards that throw their money in there as an underdog.

2.If you have a monster, you're going to get no action unless the rare occurence of someone having less of a monster.

3.If you DON'T have a monster hand, you're throwing a lot of chips into the pot and occasionally you'll find someone with a big hand behind you and they'll re-raise you and force you to fold.

3.5-4 times the blind is plenty. You're not committing yourself too much to the pot, but you're also forcing some of the limpers out of the pot early. It's all about decreasing the number of players in the pot pre-flop, but also giving yourself a chance to win a big pot WITHOUT risking a lot of your chips should the flop go against you.

[SunCoastSooner]

My grand pappy taught me you come and you come correct, five to six times the blind pre-flop to push the shit out of the way. ESPeoN started preaching that three times the BB BS it's first few years because one of the analysts who had habitually sucked in poker events for the previous two decades of his life said so. Suddenly a real raise was assumed to be an over bet bluff by every novice that got the notion to sit down at a table for the first time in their life because they saw it on TV and ESPeoN said so. "I'm sorry man I thought my 9/10 of spades was ahead preflop." or "I just had this feeling man... my gut said do it."

I completely disagree with this strategy in most spots........

Put it this way......

I usually raise 3.5-4 times the blind. If a player has limped, I make it 4-4.5 times.

If you start raising 5-6 times the blind you're doing a couple things.......

1.You're forcing out shit hands. I know, bad beats suck balls. But I like tards that throw their money in there as an underdog.

2.If you have a monster, you're going to get no action unless the rare occurence of someone having less of a monster.

3.If you DON'T have a monster hand, you're throwing a lot of chips into the pot and occasionally you'll find someone with a big hand behind you and they'll re-raise you and force you to fold.

3.5-4 times the blind is plenty. You're not committing yourself too much to the pot, but you're also forcing some of the limpers out of the pot early. It's all about decreasing the number of players in the pot pre-flop, but also giving yourself a chance to win a big pot WITHOUT risking a lot of your chips should the flop go against you.

I didn't say do it at the beginning of 60+ man tourny. By the time you strat going to war like this you should be past the first break and not be fighting the blinds. 4x the blind is an invitation to take a shot at you by any small pair or decently suited cards in a big tourny. I assumed that this subject was based on a serious tourny not some home game while the wives are at Chili's sipping on Margaritas.

[TheJON]

I didn't say do it at the beginning of 60+ man tourny. By the time you strat going to war like this you should be past the first break and not be fighting the blinds. 4x the blind is an invitation to take a shot at you by any small pair or decently suited cards in a big tourny. I assumed that this subject was based on a serious tourny not some home game while the wives are at Chili's sipping on Margaritas.

But you don't win tournaments pre-flop. Oh sure, as the tournament progresses and the blinds become high, there is definitely value in just picking up the blinds. But the only players that will call 4x the blind relatively late in a tournament with a low pocket pair are either really bad players or short stacks just looking for a coin flip to double up.

So why be so worried about them? They're MORE likely to call a 4x raise with rags EARLY in a tournament. And let's say you've got an over pair..........why are you so afraid to be called by a lower pair? Are you afraid to play the flop? Overbetters pre-flop are typically not good flop players. Do you not have the ability to lay down a big hand if the flop comes out rags or it's a paired board?

From what I've noticed is those that over-raise pre-flop are afraid of playing the flop. They'll bet big pre-flop and often times check it down to the river because they're scared.

If I have aces, I want a caller or 2. I don't care what point in the tournament it is and what my chip stack is. If I raise 5-6 times the blind, the only players that will call are AK or better and quite often you'll find that there's nobody with a monster behind you. Oh sure, I can raise 5-6x with everything BUT aces or kings and then raise 3-4 with aces or kings but then you're telegraphing what type of hand you have. I always raise the same regardless of what I've got.

Let's put this in a realistic scenario, and I'll show you why 5-6x the blinds is too much (unless there are limpers).....

Example 1:

You've got $10,000 in chips. Blinds are 200-400. You're holding AJ in mid-position. You raise to $2000. You are now re-raised by the big blind all-in (he has you covered). Obviously, you have to fold. But now you just threw away 1/5 of your stack ($2000) when you could have just tossed in $1,200-$1,400 and gotten the same results. So instead of having $8,600-$8,000 in chips, you've got $8,000. That difference is a couple of blinds.

Example 2:

You've got $10,000 in chips. Blinds are 200-400. You've got aces in first position. You raise to $2400. Nobody calls you and you take down just the blinds. Behind you sat a guy with pocket 4's and another with AJ. Both probably call a raise to $1,200. So your chip stack just increased a whopping $600 with pocket aces.

Example 3:

You've got $20,000 in chips. Blinds are 500-1,000. You've got pocket 9's. You raise to $6,000. Guy behind you goes all-in for $10,000 more. You're pot committed. You can't fold that. There's 23,500 in the pot so you're getting almost 2.5:1 with a middle pair. You make the call and he's got Jacks. Now you're pretty much finished because you only have 4x the blinds. Even if you do decide to fold (which probably isn't a terrible play), you're stuck with $14,000 in chips and the next time you put chips in the pot you are completely pot committed regardless of what comes on the flop. If you raise to $3,000, it's an easy fold for you and you've still got $17,000 in chips left.


Plain and simple, there's no value in raising 5-6 times the blinds in a tournament because you're risking a lot while decreasing your potential to win a big pot. You can get pretty close to the same amount of action or get about the same percentage of folders with a 3-4x raise.

[SunCoastSooner]

I didn't say do it at the beginning of 60+ man tourny. By the time you strat going to war like this you should be past the first break and not be fighting the blinds. 4x the blind is an invitation to take a shot at you by any small pair or decently suited cards in a big tourny. I assumed that this subject was based on a serious tourny not some home game while the wives are at Chili's sipping on Margaritas.

But you don't win tournaments pre-flop. Oh sure, as the tournament progresses and the blinds become high, there is definitely value in just picking up the blinds. But the only players that will call 4x the blind relatively late in a tournament with a low pocket pair are either really bad players or short stacks just looking for a coin flip to double up.

So why be so worried about them? They're MORE likely to call a 4x raise with rags EARLY in a tournament. And let's say you've got an over pair..........why are you so afraid to be called by a lower pair? Are you afraid to play the flop? Overbetters pre-flop are typically not good flop players. Do you not have the ability to lay down a big hand if the flop comes out rags or it's a paired board?

From what I've noticed is those that over-raise pre-flop are afraid of playing the flop. They'll bet big pre-flop and often times check it down to the river because they're scared.

If I have aces, I want a caller or 2. I don't care what point in the tournament it is and what my chip stack is. If I raise 5-6 times the blind, the only players that will call are AK or better and quite often you'll find that there's nobody with a monster behind you. Oh sure, I can raise 5-6x with everything BUT aces or kings and then raise 3-4 with aces or kings but then you're telegraphing what type of hand you have. I always raise the same regardless of what I've got.

Let's put this in a realistic scenario, and I'll show you why 5-6x the blinds is too much (unless there are limpers).....

Example 1:

You've got $10,000 in chips. Blinds are 200-400. You're holding AJ in mid-position. You raise to $2000. You are now re-raised by the big blind all-in (he has you covered). Obviously, you have to fold. But now you just threw away 1/5 of your stack ($2000) when you could have just tossed in $1,200-$1,400 and gotten the same results. So instead of having $8,600-$8,000 in chips, you've got $8,000. That difference is a couple of blinds.

Example 2:

You've got $10,000 in chips. Blinds are 200-400. You've got aces in first position. You raise to $2400. Nobody calls you and you take down just the blinds. Behind you sat a guy with pocket 4's and another with AJ. Both probably call a raise to $1,200. So your chip stack just increased a whopping $600 with pocket aces.

Example 3:

You've got $20,000 in chips. Blinds are 500-1,000. You've got pocket 9's. You raise to $6,000. Guy behind you goes all-in for $10,000 more. You're pot committed. You can't fold that. There's 23,500 in the pot so you're getting almost 2.5:1 with a middle pair. You make the call and he's got Jacks. Now you're pretty much finished because you only have 4x the blinds. Even if you do decide to fold (which probably isn't a terrible play), you're stuck with $14,000 in chips and the next time you put chips in the pot you are completely pot committed regardless of what comes on the flop. If you raise to $3,000, it's an easy fold for you and you've still got $17,000 in chips left.


Plain and simple, there's no value in raising 5-6 times the blinds in a tournament because you're risking a lot while decreasing your potential to win a big pot. You can get pretty close to the same amount of action or get about the same percentage of folders with a 3-4x raise.

Have you played in a live tourny in the last decade? Are you on drugs?

One caller? Two callers? I dream of such a scenario in a decent tourny. More like at least 3 and usually four or five! The laws of percentages are against you. Two pair, small pair hitting trips, straights... flushes... even with the rockets in the hole. I'd rather win a small pot than lose a big one.

Pot committed? No such fucking thing... I'm not going to go 6x with a minuscule stack like you suggest. 20:1 is only a live able stack for 2 trips around the table in a 60+ man tourny... or worse a serious event! You should have the blinds at at least a 10:1 advantage in any serious tourny at all times after the first break! You think 2.5 to 1 is a good chip ratio???

You have Rockets and you want two callers? One having a small pair and another having connector possibilities with one of your outs already accounted for and no telling who has folded ace rag for a small wager with virtually no profit margin in the long term of a serious event?

Plain and simple; no wonder you're used to finding yourself in such situations.

[TheJON]

Plain and simple; no wonder you're used to finding yourself in such situations.

Used to finding myself in WHAT situations? I just made those examples up dude. They weren't real life scenario's.

I play a lot of live tournaments. Played in tourney's all over this country and many different casinos. Never played in a major event, though I was planning on playing WSOP this summer just didn't have the time to make it to Vegas. And done VERY well, for the record.

60-200 player tournaments, regardless of the buy-in, typically average 3,000-4,000 in starting chips. Having 20,000 in chips at the 500-1,000 blind level gives you well above the average stack and would probably put you in the top 3-4 in the tournament.

You can't always control your stack. Oh sure, I'd love to win every single hand but that's not possible. You can't prevent bad beats from taking your chips sometimes. I can't control what cards come out. I can only control the amount of chips I put into the pot. Anyone that's played poker for more than a week would understand this.

I don't get your logic.......

Put a lot of chips at risk while decreasing your potential to win a big pot? That screams "I'm not a good enough player to play the flop, so I want to just take it down before the dealer throws out 3 community cards"!

Me, personally........I have no fear of the flop. Give me a couple of idiot callers with my hand being the favorite and I like my chances. I would rather play for a big pot than scare donks off would pay me off if they hit any part of the flop. Sure, that leaves me vulnerable to someone hitting their set of 3's or having my aces cracked by AK. But here's the thing.......those things only happen a small percentage of the time, and on top of that I can lay down a big hand no problem. It's called being disciplined.

If you have Kings and the flop is Q-Q-3, are you unable to lose those Kings down? You can't do it, can you?

If I have aces, I want to win a pot. Not steal the damn blinds. How are you going to win tournaments by getting no action with your big hands?

Plain and simple..........

The way to play a tournament is to be patient, play position, and minimize the amount of chips you put at risk while maximizing your wins. Raising big pre-flop completely goes against this strategy and makes you vulnerable to having to lay down hands after you already put a lot of chips in the pot. This strategy makes no sense and I don't think I've EVER seen anyone win like this at any tournament- on TV or in person.